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Ikar Kaltin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.23 10:27:00 - [1] Hello all, and especially hello to you star fraction spin doctors who are about to jump all over this message. Over recent times Star Fraction have been making a huge propoganda move (i know, as shocking as it might be that star fraction are making propoganda....anyway, I digress), making a move that they are a NRDS entity and defiently not pirates, and are even anti-pirates, while here they have been spouting a large movement that CVA are pirates. Ok, lets use some of their arguments and then have a look at them shall we. They say CVA are pirates because they are friends with IAC, who according to you are a large NBSI'ing entity who CVA cuddle upto for protection. Without going into the intricate details about how stupid and inaccurate view that is, I want to instead focus upon Star Fractions actions. They claim to be anti-pirate, a NRDS entity. Yet they are allied and work closely with the Sani Sabik, a NBSI pirate entity whos latest mission has been sitting in kheram shooting acadamy pod piloted haulers as they come through the gate from mista, in a blatent act of piracy. And here it comes, the "well it all depends upon your defenition of pirate", which again, as well as so many other things Star Fraction will try to derail this message with, has the potential to. So I shall give my own personal defenition of piracy, as I have done before. To me piracy is engaging a neutal without provication in an attempt to either ransom or destroy them, By allying themselves with a group who pirates within low security space, who openly brags about this act on this summit, especially about the number of kills they are getting, they are supporting piracy, by joining with this group in joint gangs, no matter what the targret, they are aiding a pirate entity. Apparently by CVAs relation with a 0.0 based NRDS entity we are pirates and are activly supporting pirates. I would ask Star fraction how the same does not apply to them activly supporting and working with a low sec pirating entity? Ikar Kaltin
KhanJohn Amarr Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.05.23 10:41:00 - [2] i would say all factions in pirates and all factions are not pirates, piratry is predatory, you attack those who support the others cause often know also as privateering to weaken the main enemy in my PERSONAL opinion all groups are both pirates and privateers and all groups are not pirates or privateers...because thats the idiocy of all claims one side can claim that the other side is and at some time all were either supporting or not supporting acts of piracy...but then again you could debate piracy doesnt exist in a warzone anyway any neutral caught in providence is in no mans land such as in any war innocents die and thus if Ikar you are seeking a definitive answer there is none however if you are seeking to be childish and say HAH LOOK SF ARE PIRATES TOO SEE SEE!! and then sf respond as they undoubedtly will with NO YOU ARE PIRATES SEE SEE SEE! and then the UK respond also with HANG ON BUT YOU ARE PIRATES CVA SEE SEE! we end up with a cycle of hatred and counter arguments that really mean nothing other than a useless propaganda war and most neutrals will make up their own mind on the actions taken by each alliance towards them in space not on IGS! irony, dont you just love it! People ask me what i am if i am not Amarran - i am a free "Amarri" all exiled amarrans who do not believe the tainted prophets are!
Ikar Kaltin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.23 11:01:00 - [3] Edited by: Ikar Kaltin on 23/05/2007 10:59:30 Im sorry Khan, but that is a load of tripe. You are referring to our 0.0 situation, I am referring to SF policy of supporting pirates in low sec space, who have absolutly nothing to do with our war, as in fact Ushrakhan are not mentioned in this at all. This message is directed solely at Star Fraction for their support of the low sec pirates Sani Sabik. This is in response to the growing propoganda, and what I feel is hypocracy of Star Fraction. And am I to take it that innocents are no longer welcome in Ushrakhan space, or even providence, and will be shot by UK and friends just because they are not on your side? Your answer is replying to an issue not raised here Khan, please try and keep this on the topic at hand (which suprisingly, isnt about our war).
Tecam Hund The Buggers	Posted - 2007.05.23 11:10:00 - [4] Edited by: Tecam Hund on 23/05/2007 11:11:18 Star Fraction neither supports nor opposes piracy. Your arguments are based on false assumption.
KhanJohn Amarr Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.05.23 11:10:00 - [5] not really a load of tripe i was looking at the bigger picture and while i respect you for defending your side and i do agree the star fraction can be an annoyance with their multitude of replies what i was trying to state is that you are baseing them being pirates on their allies due to them basing you as pirates due to your allies which is a corollery to you also basing us as pirates for our allies and vica versa so it is in fact all relevant whil you were not pointing fingers to the UK i mentioned them as an irony in terms if your subject as an example. although you can neatly partition all 3 subjects in seperate topics what i meant was that if you are seeking an omission or to test star fraction i doubt you will get anything your looking for in another these are pirates threads and while i respect you post humoursly trying to ask about their policies i can guarantee between all three alliances you would get the same answer... what i was trying to say i think everyone should realise that when at war, war is war and while i dont like smear campaigns (generally my reply posts are not to propagandistic or spiteful for that matter either) we have this central smear campaign by all three factions of each others names at the moment by any means neccesary :) People ask me what i am if i am not Amarran - i am a free "Amarri" all exiled amarrans who do not believe the tainted prophets are!
Ikar Kaltin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.23 11:18:00 - [6] Personally Khan, I do not class you as pirates. I class Ushrakhan as terrorists for the actions against the Amarr Empire. I would not call you pirates, although I call your allies pirates for their actions, and I call you supporters of pirates for your alliance with them, this is very clear cut. Star Fraction claim (extensivly if you read all the threads, along with evejoker) that CVA are pirates for their friendship with IAC, one of the few NRDS alliances in EVE at this time. I claim that Star Fraction, on this claim are pirates, despite their lengthy denials of this yesterday, where they claimed they were both anti-pirate and NRDS. Sani pirate in low sec space, shooting everyone that comes through, which is against these supposed policies of Star Fraction and yet they are happily allied with them and move in gangs with them. This communication is against the hypocrasy of Star Fraction claims in a time when they are trying to smear our name with the same brush. And this smear campaign you speak off, I suggest where you look to its starting, it was not with the loyalist bloc, we are purely reactionary....which can actually be said about most if not all of the things we do.
Ikar Kaltin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.23 11:19:00 - [7] Originally by: Tecam Hund Edited by: Tecam Hund on 23/05/2007 11:11:18 Star Fraction neither supports nor opposes piracy. Your arguments are based on false assumption. Whichever way you look at it Star Fraction are openly supporting a group who activly and vocally pirates.
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.05.23 11:20:00 - [8] Please point out where we have ever said we were anti pirate. As Tecam says, SF is neither pro nor anti pirate. D- Please try harder. -------------------------------------------- Join Now
Redbad Minmatar Be Inspired Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.23 11:23:00 - [9] Edited by: Redbad on 23/05/2007 11:21:49 The Sebiestors don't matter what classifications are given to who, as long as the fight for freedom is served and the Republic can be a safehaven to those wronged in their attempts to be free. If you know you fight for what is right, the one not agreeing with you is wrong. It is something we all can agree upon, lets work from there. RB join us today!
KhanJohn Amarr Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.05.23 11:25:00 - [10] i can see your points ikar perhaps you could like the posts as mentioned above regarding their anti pirate stance that may aid you in the debate with them but hehe i think youve opened a rather huge pandoras box with this one...brave very brave :) in regards to the smear campaign as i do not wish to derail this further, i think personally that no matter who started to smear who, a lot of respect and traditional honour has departed this summit which is a shame as now i have seen all three factions smearing each other a shame indeed a shame...and i include myself guilty as well. as always my personal opinions are not those of my coporation or alliance :) Good luck with the topic KJ out People ask me what i am if i am not Amarran - i am a free "Amarri" all exiled amarrans who do not believe the tainted prophets are!

Ikar Kaltin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.23 11:27:00 - [11] Originally by: Sable Schroedinger Please point out where we have ever said we were anti pirate. As Tecam says, SF is neither pro nor anti pirate. D- Please try harder. If you wish I shall provide proof that Star Fraction claim to engage people on the grounds that the person was pirating, which sounds very much like the claim any anti-pirate would make. From the mouth of miss constantine herself as well. [ 2007.05.23 01:13:51 ] Jade Constantine > we were fighting a guy this afternoon [ 2007.05.23 01:13:55 ] Ituralde > We shoot anyone who shoots us first, Ikar [ 2007.05.23 01:13:56 ] Jade Constantine > novice corp [ 2007.05.23 01:13:59 ] Jade Constantine > abaddon [ 2007.05.23 01:14:04 ] Axen Vormar > Oh no, please no lectures from the CVA... [ 2007.05.23 01:14:09 ] Jade Constantine > he was pirating bestowers in kheram [ 2007.05.23 01:14:14 ] Jade Constantine > so we killed him Which also shows that they will happily shoot people "pirating" bestowers in Kheram yet allow their allies to do the same unmolested.
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.05.23 11:40:00 - [12] Originally by: Ikar Kaltin Originally by: Tecam Hund Edited by: Tecam Hund on 23/05/2007 11:11:18 Star Fraction neither supports nor opposes piracy. Your arguments are based on false assumption. Whichever way you look at it Star Fraction are openly supporting a group who activly and vocally pirates. No, you're just not thinking and throwing around words you don't truly understand. SF is NRDS. Period. The only way you get on our Red list is to shoot at us. On extremely rare occasions, groups have entered our red list if they are diametrically opposed to our ideology. However, this is by its nature rare on the grounds that such opposition usually leads them to shooting us long before we need to add them to our list of enemies. Yes, many pirate groups are on our list of enemies and we hunt them with all the vigour of our other enemies, but this is only because the profession of piracy often leads to one of their corp shooting at one of us. NOT because we have anything against pirates. If a group does not shoot us, then we will not attack them. Nor will we judge them. You show your very ignorance by accusing us of being anti pirate, as we have gone to war with groups for doing just that. ôanti-piratesö foster a culture of dependency where the weak are servile to the strong that is an anathema to our ideology. -------------------------------------------- Join Now
Ikar Kaltin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.23 11:41:00 - [13] Originally by: Sable Schroedinger Originally by: Ikar Kaltin Originally by: Tecam Hund Edited by: Tecam Hund on 23/05/2007 11:11:18 Star Fraction neither supports nor opposes piracy. Your arguments are based on false assumption. Whichever way you look at it Star Fraction are openly supporting a group who activly and vocally pirates. No, you're just not thinking and throwing around words you don't truly understand. SF is NRDS. Period. The only way you get on our Red list is to shoot at us. On extremely rare occasions, groups have entered our red list if they are diametrically opposed to our ideology. However, this is by its nature rare on the grounds that such opposition usually leads them to shooting us long before we need to add them to our list of enemies. Yes, many pirate groups are on our list of enemies and we hunt them with all the vigour of our other enemies, but this is only because the profession of piracy often leads to one of their corp shooting at one of us. NOT because we have anything against pirates. If a group does not shoot us, then we will not attack them. Nor will we judge them. You show your very ignorance by accusing us of being anti pirate, as we have gone to war with groups for doing just that. ôanti-piratesö foster a culture of dependency where the weak are servile to the strong that is an anathema to our ideology. See post above yours to see how your own leader contradicted you.
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.05.23 11:44:00 - [14] Originally by: Ikar Kaltin If you wish I shall provide proof that Star Fraction claim to engage people on the grounds that the person was pirating, which sounds very much like the claim any anti-pirate would make. From the mouth of miss constantine herself as well. [ 2007.05.23 01:13:51 ] Jade Constantine > we were fighting a guy this afternoon [ 2007.05.23 01:13:55 ] Ituralde > We shoot anyone who shoots us first, Ikar [ 2007.05.23 01:13:56 ] Jade Constantine > novice corp [ 2007.05.23 01:13:59 ] Jade Constantine > abaddon [ 2007.05.23 01:14:04 ] Axen Vormar > Oh no, please no lectures from the CVA... [ 2007.05.23 01:14:09 ] Jade Constantine > he was pirating bestowers in kheram [ 2007.05.23 01:14:14 ] Jade Constantine > so we killed him Which also shows that they will happily shoot people "pirating" bestowers in Kheram yet allow their allies to do the same unmolested. seems you conveniently overlooked the line I've put in bold. -------------------------------------------- Join Now
Ikar Kaltin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.23 11:48:00 - [15] Originally by: Sable Schroedinger Originally by: Ikar Kaltin If you wish I shall provide proof that Star Fraction claim to engage people on the grounds that the person was pirating, which sounds very much like the claim any anti-pirate would make. From the mouth of miss constantine herself as well. [ 2007.05.23 01:13:51 ] Jade Constantine > we were fighting a guy this afternoon [ 2007.05.23 01:13:55 ] Ituralde > We shoot anyone who shoots us first, Ikar [ 2007.05.23 01:13:56 ] Jade Constantine > novice corp [ 2007.05.23 01:13:59 ] Jade Constantine > abaddon [ 2007.05.23 01:14:04 ] Axen Vormar > Oh no, please no lectures from the CVA... [ 2007.05.23 01:14:09 ] Jade Constantine > he was pirating bestowers in kheram [ 2007.05.23 01:14:14 ] Jade Constantine > so we killed him Which also shows that they will happily shoot people "pirating" bestowers in Kheram yet allow their allies to do the same unmolested. seems you conveniently overlooked the line I've put in bold. Seems you convienienty missed what jade was saying, if you wish I can expand the whole conversation to show you what Ituralde was responding to (which was a point I had made about SF), but those points are a discussion which I didnt deem relevent to this topic, but I decided I would leave that in so there was no yell of doctoring logs. [ 2007.05.23 01:13:42 ] Ikar Kaltin > Simply, you shoot at anyone who does not agree with your ideology. We have strict guidlines on what gets you shot [ 2007.05.23 01:13:45 ] Horus Isis > its ok [ 2007.05.23 01:13:51 ] Jade Constantine > we were fighting a guy this afternoon [ 2007.05.23 01:13:55 ] Ituralde > We shoot anyone who shoots us first, Ikar [ 2007.05.23 01:13:56 ] Jade Constantine > novice corp [ 2007.05.23 01:13:59 ] Jade Constantine > abaddon [ 2007.05.23 01:14:04 ] Axen Vormar > Oh no, please no lectures from the CVA... [ 2007.05.23 01:14:09 ] Jade Constantine > he was pirating bestowers in kheram [ 2007.05.23 01:14:14 ] Jade Constantine > so we killed him Is what it read on the inclusion of what Ituralde was responding to.
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.05.23 11:53:00 - [16] Originally by: Ikar Kaltin Originally by: Sable Schroedinger Originally by: Ikar Kaltin If you wish I shall provide proof that Star Fraction claim to engage people on the grounds that the person was pirating, which sounds very much like the claim any anti-pirate would make. From the mouth of miss constantine herself as well. [ 2007.05.23 01:13:51 ] Jade Constantine > we were fighting a guy this afternoon [ 2007.05.23 01:13:55 ] Ituralde > We shoot anyone who shoots us first, Ikar [ 2007.05.23 01:13:56 ] Jade Constantine > novice corp [ 2007.05.23 01:13:59 ] Jade Constantine > abaddon [ 2007.05.23 01:14:04 ] Axen Vormar > Oh no, please no lectures from the CVA... [ 2007.05.23 01:14:09 ] Jade Constantine > he was pirating bestowers in kheram [ 2007.05.23 01:14:14 ] Jade Constantine > so we killed him Which also shows that they will happily shoot people "pirating" bestowers in Kheram yet allow their allies to do the same unmolested. seems you conveniently overlooked the line I've put in bold. Seems you convienienty missed what jade was saying, if you wish I can expand the whole conversation to show you what Ituralde was responding to (which was a point I had made about SF), but those points are a discussion which I didnt deem relevent to this topic, but I decided I would leave that in so there was no yell of doctoring logs. [ 2007.05.23 01:13:42 ] Ikar Kaltin > Simply, you shoot at anyone who does not agree with your ideology. We have strict guidlines on what gets you shot [ 2007.05.23 01:13:45 ] Horus Isis > its ok [ 2007.05.23 01:13:51 ] Jade Constantine > we were fighting a guy this afternoon [ 2007.05.23 01:13:55 ] Ituralde > We shoot anyone who shoots us first, Ikar [ 2007.05.23 01:13:56 ] Jade Constantine > novice corp [ 2007.05.23 01:13:59 ] Jade Constantine > abaddon [ 2007.05.23 01:14:04 ] Axen Vormar > Oh no, please no lectures from the CVA... [ 2007.05.23 01:14:09 ] Jade Constantine > he was pirating bestowers in kheram [ 2007.05.23 01:14:14 ] Jade Constantine > so we killed him Is what it read on the inclusion of what Ituralde was responding to. A known enemy was pirating close to our Mista base. He was killed because he was in Kheram not because of what he was doing there. Want to trot out any more lies Ikar or are you done?
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.05.23 12:02:00 - [17] Whilst I see what you're saying, I have no hesitation in saying Jade is either choosing her words badly, out of context or just plain wrong. My bet is a mixture of points 1 and 2. I believe that the reference you need to understand in those comments are that the person was in a rookie corp, therefore capsuleer corps and alliances are unable to set them to ôRedö under CONCORD rules. He had however, earned his status as an enemy due to earlier aggression. The comment that he was using an Abbadon to hunt Bestowers was an insult thrown as it was believed he was too cowardly to engage anything more dangerous in what is a formidable ship. The quote reads badly I agree, but my statements stands. -------------------------------------------- Join Now
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.23 12:06:00 - [18] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 23/05/2007 12:04:52 Moving back to the original post here, I don't think that the viewpoint that SF support piracy to be at all controversial. After all, not only are they currently flying alongside The Sani Sabik alliance, they have also previously flown alongside The Black Rabbits. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.05.23 12:09:00 - [19] As you well know Rodj, not opposing is not the same as "supporting". ...or do we assume that PIE officially supports an SF presence in Amarr space? -------------------------------------------- Join Now
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.23 12:12:00 - [20] Originally by: Sable Schroedinger As you well know Rodj, not opposing is not the same as "supporting". Oh come on now, you did a lot more than merely "not oppose" The Black Rabbits. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.

Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.05.23 12:13:00 - [21] Do tell. -------------------------------------------- Join Now
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.23 12:25:00 - [22] Originally by: Sable Schroedinger Do tell. Are you suggesting that the official news was wrong when it said that the Star Fraction had declared its support for the Rabbits? Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.05.23 12:28:00 - [23] Well I was one of the people who actually killed that Pirate Abaddon in Kheram yesterday afternoon. And the point was: A) He had shot at our people previously. B) He was pirating bestowers. C) He was hiding in a novice corp so one can't set proper standings to him. and (most amusingly) D) He had "friendly to CVA and NOS" written in his bio. So the point you are trying to hit us with Ikar Kaltin is that a CVA/NOS friendly novice corp gate tanking neutral bestower killer guy got killed by the Star Fraction while he was doing his dirty deeds. And you've come here to boast about that? (not sure I understand your reasoning but I'm sure the general public will get the idea.) Star Fraction is recruiting
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.05.23 12:31:00 - [24] Because the "News" is never wrong... right? Even then, I assume you're refering to this section: Quote: The most notable of the third party organisations joining the Mito conflict has been the pro free space radicals, The Star Fraction, who have since declared their support for the Rabbits in the war against the Directive. Their presence in Empire space after long years crusading on the lawless frontiers represents what CEO Jade Constantine referred to as, "a return to the source." Even taking the words on face value (never wise), I think context is everything. -------------------------------------------- Join Now
Saragael	Posted - 2007.05.23 12:31:00 - [25] It is dfunny that people think this post is news. During the SF war with KD the Star fraction not only supported pirate operations but openly endorsed them and worked with them. They made no pretense to hide a direct alliance with a known pirate group. There is no spin on this statement of fact purely. That being said why anyone would think that calling SF a pirate organization is news is beyond me. thats like saying there is a news flash PIE supports the Amarr. it is common knowledge and factual.
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.05.23 12:34:00 - [26] Originally by: Saragael It is dfunny that people think this post is news. During the SF war with KD the Star fraction not only supported pirate operations but openly endorsed them and worked with them. They made no pretense to hide a direct alliance with a known pirate group. There is no spin on this statement of fact purely. That being said why anyone would think that calling SF a pirate organization is news is beyond me. thats like saying there is a news flash PIE supports the Amarr. it is common knowledge and factual. We never attack neutrals. You can call us pirates until the cows fly home but it won't change the fact our Rules of Engagement are strict and well publicised. To re-iterate for people who don't like reading so much. We are not pro or anti-pirate in any way shape or form.
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.05.23 12:36:00 - [27] Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 23/05/2007 09:51:30 May I be the first to congratulate the Laughing Leprechauns and Collateral Damage. Impressive work. Interesting, so Rodj digs at our specific declaration for support for the Rabbits in a concord sanctioned war. But is quite prepared to offer full and hearty congratulations for the Laughing Leprechauns (a pirate corp in Kheram). Isn't life hard when you need to avoid contradicting oneself in different threads ... Star Fraction is recruiting
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.05.23 12:38:00 - [28] Originally by: Saragael It is dfunny that people think this post is news. During the SF war with KD the Star fraction not only supported pirate operations but openly endorsed them and worked with them. They made no pretense to hide a direct alliance with a known pirate group. There is no spin on this statement of fact purely. That being said why anyone would think that calling SF a pirate organization is news is beyond me. thats like saying there is a news flash PIE supports the Amarr. it is common knowledge and factual. actually, I think the context in bold of the quoted "evidence" spewed forth proves your comment to be nothing but spin... SF does not support "Piracy", SF does not oppose "Piracy", SF are NRDS and SF will work with allies to pursue its agenda. There is no spin on this statement of fact purely. -------------------------------------------- Join Now
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.23 12:38:00 - [29] Originally by: Jasmine Constantine Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 23/05/2007 09:51:30 May I be the first to congratulate the Laughing Leprechauns and Collateral Damage. Impressive work. Interesting, so Rodj digs at our specific declaration for support for the Rabbits in a concord sanctioned war. But is quite prepared to offer full and hearty congratulations for the Laughing Leprechauns (a pirate corp in Kheram). Isn't life hard when you need to avoid contradicting oneself in different threads ... It's always good to see one bunch of pirates destroy the ships of another bunch of pirates. It saves me a job. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.05.23 12:39:00 - [30] Originally by: Rodj Blake It's always good to see one bunch of pirates destroy the ships of another bunch of pirates. It saves me a job. Been a long time since you were "defending the borders" of the empire Rodj ... Star Fraction is recruiting



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