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Star Fraction are pirates/support piracy

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Ikar Kaltin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.23 12:54:00 - [31] Jasmine, as we discussed yesterday, having "friend of CVA2 in ones bio doesnt actually mean very much. Individuals place this in their bios to show they are anti-pirates, because CVA's name has long been known as a strong anti-pirate force. Pirates latch onto this and place it into their bio in an attempt to not be shot by anti-pirate forces, and thus in some cases bio must be taken with a pinch of salt. And again this is irrelevent to the opening post. However, even during the course of star fractions replies here there has been a defenite change from a "we neither support nor appose piracy" to "we fly with them and help them, but we dont do it ourselves". I have not claimed that Star Fraction are pirate via their actions, merely through the logic they apply to call CVA pirates. In a time when "pirates" are such an important issue, and when Star Fraction as well as Ushrakhan and their allies are going out of their way to imply their new friends arent pirates, it obviously shows it is an issue to you all, and again it is interesting to note who Star Fraction flies with and supports when they are saying others arent pirates. Star Fraction openly supports pirates, and as you can see from what I have shown, it could be taken that SF attack people on the basia of them being a pirate for attacking a bestower, and not your pilots, which even if poorly chosen words, still imply the act was againt him attacking bestowers,. which is what your alies are doing extensivly. So I ask Star Fraction, what do you class as a piracy, and how does it fit into the context your own miss contantine has already placed it? Ikar Kaltin
Eddie Gordo Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.05.23 13:00:00 - [32] Is anyone else bored? Now Recruiting
Gaius Kador PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.23 13:08:00 - [33] Originally by: Eddie Gordo Is anyone else bored? Me. ----------------------------------------------
Octavinus Augustus Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.23 13:09:00 - [34] Originally by: Sable Schroedinger SF does not support "Piracy", SF does not oppose "Piracy", SF are NRDS and SF will work with allies to pursue its agenda. There is no spin on this statement of fact purely. Yet, according to Sani Sabik reports here on IGS, Star Fraction pilots actively cooperate with Sani Sabik in Kheram while Sani Sabik commmit their frequent acts of piracy in this very system. Now, I'm personally willing to acknowledge that you yourselves are not pirates if you say you have a NRDS policy - and I have little reason to doubt this when spoken by people like yourself, Mr Schroedinger. But the fact remain that you actively cooperate with Sani Sabik while they commit repeated acts of of piracy. It's not that you fly in military operations with Sani Sabik to oppose your common enemies, it's that these ops are used by Sani Sabik to ply their own little "trade" on the side. Because of this I think you'll need more than a little spin to claim that you, by your actions, do not support piracy. Motto: Vae Victis - Woe to the vanquished.
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.05.23 13:09:00 - [35] Originally by: Ikar Kaltin Jasmine, as we discussed yesterday, having "friend of CVA2 in ones bio doesnt actually mean very much. Individuals place this in their bios to show they are anti-pirates, because CVA's name has long been known as a strong anti-pirate force. Pirates latch onto this and place it into their bio in an attempt to not be shot by anti-pirate forces, and thus in some cases bio must be taken with a pinch of salt. And again this is irrelevent to the opening post. However, even during the course of star fractions replies here there has been a defenite change from a "we neither support nor appose piracy" to "we fly with them and help them, but we dont do it ourselves". I have not claimed that Star Fraction are pirate via their actions, merely through the logic they apply to call CVA pirates. In a time when "pirates" are such an important issue, and when Star Fraction as well as Ushrakhan and their allies are going out of their way to imply their new friends arent pirates, it obviously shows it is an issue to you all, and again it is interesting to note who Star Fraction flies with and supports when they are saying others arent pirates. Star Fraction openly supports pirates, and as you can see from what I have shown, it could be taken that SF attack people on the basia of them being a pirate for attacking a bestower, and not your pilots, which even if poorly chosen words, still imply the act was againt him attacking bestowers,. which is what your alies are doing extensivly. So I ask Star Fraction, what do you class as a piracy, and how does it fit into the context your own miss contantine has already placed it? Ikar Kaltin Did you even read that before posting? There has been no shift in our stand point in reality, only in your head maybe. Nothing you have pointed out in our comments proves anything other than what we've already said. Everything else is just a desperate and tenuous attempt to justify your view. Pretty pathetic really. -------------------------------------------- Join Now
Sakura Nihil Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.05.23 13:10:00 - [36] Edited by: Sakura Nihil on 23/05/2007 13:12:26 Originally by: Eddie Gordo Is anyone else bored? A bit . The talking point for anyone interested in this issue though is that we do not pirate because: 1) We do not allow aggressions against neutrals, anyone shooting one has to compensate them to the victim's satisfaction and apologize. 2) We maintain an extensive standings list saying who we can and can't shoot, only shooting upon a corporation or alliance for previous offenses against our members. 3) We do not hunt ships for profit. It makes me smile that CVA are reduced to playing the "you are pirates!" game with us. I believe we've been down this path before... Oh, one additional thing of note. As mentioned before, we neither support or disapprove of piracy - our core ideology means we believe those who are victims of the pirates have a responsibility to defend themselves, not let others do the work for them as it leads to the spread of protectionist memes. That doesn't mean we won't work with them from time to time if its against a common foe, such as with the Rabbits or the Sani Sabik in Kheram, but one very important fact to note again is that at all times, our rules of engagement are followed to the letter as we will not shoot neutrals.
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.05.23 13:12:00 - [37] Originally by: Ikar Kaltin Jasmine, as we discussed yesterday, having "friend of CVA2 in ones bio doesnt actually mean very much. Individuals place this in their bios to show they are anti-pirates, because CVA's name has long been known as a strong anti-pirate force. Pirates latch onto this and place it into their bio in an attempt to not be shot by anti-pirate forces, and thus in some cases bio must be taken with a pinch of salt. And again this is irrelevent to the opening post. I don't think I've spoken to you for weeks ... Quote: So I ask Star Fraction, what do you class as a piracy, and how does it fit into the context your own miss contantine has already placed it? Ikar Kaltin For me personally Piracy is attacking a neutral in open space or nullsec. Hence all alliances that run NBSI are pirates. This leads directly into the reason SF feel the CVA are being hypocrits actually, since you are friends with the IAC (pirates) while pretending to be outraged at the friends of your enemies that run similar policies. SF reaction to this environment of near universal "piracy" is to say - well, we'll do our diplomacy on a 1 to 1 basis and if you don't shoot us we won't shoot you. CVA reaction to this environment of near universal "piracy" is to say - those guys over there are pirates! those other guys over there (behaving exactly in the same manner) are respected territorial politicians and we love them! Hence we believe the CVA approach is intrisically hypocritical and deceitful. Star Fraction is recruiting
Taters Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.05.23 13:14:00 - [38] queue the "you are a pirate!" holoreel.
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.05.23 13:15:00 - [39] Originally by: Taters queue the "you are a pirate!" holoreel. Fundimentally that holoreel is probably the most substantive and meaningful critique of the CVA's policy in this regard. Star Fraction is recruiting
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.05.23 13:23:00 - [40] Originally by: Octavinus Augustus Yet, according to Sani Sabik reports here on IGS, Star Fraction pilots actively cooperate with Sani Sabik in Kheram while Sani Sabik commmit their frequent acts of piracy in this very system. Now, I'm personally willing to acknowledge that you yourselves are not pirates if you say you have a NRDS policy - and I have little reason to doubt this when spoken by people like yourself, Mr Schroedinger. But the fact remain that you actively cooperate with Sani Sabik while they commit repeated acts of of piracy. It's not that you fly in military operations with Sani Sabik to oppose your common enemies, it's that these ops are used by Sani Sabik to ply their own little "trade" on the side. Because of this I think you'll need more than a little spin to claim that you, by your actions, do not support piracy. So, let me put this in context, if you were in a gang and it came across a UÆK pilot under attack and you joined in and attacked the UÆK pilot. Then because you have a shared enemy, you are both ôAlliesö and responsible for each others actionsà? SF are NRDS. We will join with any group that is not hostile to us to shoot our enemies. We are not their keepers, we are not police and they are most certainly NOT answerable to us. After all, we are, as you say, anarchists. Simply, we do not support Sani Sabiks piracy. Nor do we oppose it. Quite literally, its none of our business. The only way it will become our business, is if they target one of our vessels. It really is that simple. Yes it may be frustrating that we can not be tarred with the same brush as yourselves, but this is basically because we do not share the same moral codes. I would contest that, as a territorialist police force, you do in fact claim responsibility for the actions of your allies, especially in ôyour spaceö. SF on the other hand, fights against that thinking and for the fact that each and every pilot is responsible unto themselves only. Thus the OPs rather clumsy attempt at smear and spin is doomed to failure. -------------------------------------------- Join Now
Saragael	Posted - 2007.05.23 14:12:00 - [41] The arguement of not support but not oppsoing would work except past actions are to the contrary. In the war with KD, SF not only supported operations with the pirates but planned them and executed them. Even going so far as to include them in their planning over the long term. So the cry of not supporting seems hollow when the history of SF is looked at.
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.05.23 14:18:00 - [42] Originally by: Saragael The arguement of not support but not oppsoing would work except past actions are to the contrary. In the war with KD, SF not only supported operations with the pirates but planned them and executed them. Even going so far as to include them in their planning over the long term. So the cry of not supporting seems hollow when the history of SF is looked at. You got some proof to go along with those ridiculous allegations or are you just teasing me?
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.05.23 14:20:00 - [43] please explain within the context of the answers you have been given, and so prove that you haev in fact read them and aren't just crying "la la la I'm not listening". -------------------------------------------- Join Now
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.23 14:22:00 - [44] Originally by: Nekumi Originally by: Saragael The arguement of not support but not oppsoing would work except past actions are to the contrary. In the war with KD, SF not only supported operations with the pirates but planned them and executed them. Even going so far as to include them in their planning over the long term. So the cry of not supporting seems hollow when the history of SF is looked at. You got some proof to go along with those ridiculous allegations or are you just teasing me? Let's go back to our live-fire exercises in the Mito constellation. On several occasions we camped the Black Rabbits who were docked in a station. Eventually, they would undock and engage us. I suppose that it's a complete coincidence that every time this happened SF ships entered local and warped to the station at optimal range as soon as we opened fire? Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.05.23 14:28:00 - [45] Originally by: Rodj Blake Let's go back to our live-fire exercises in the Mito constellation. On several occasions we camped the Black Rabbits who were docked in a station. Eventually, they would undock and engage us. I suppose that it's a complete coincidence that every time this happened SF ships entered local and warped to the station at optimal range as soon as we opened fire? Why exactly wouldn't we shoot a -10 declared war enemy alongside another bunch of people that had you to -10? Stop crying. Star Fraction is recruiting
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.05.23 14:29:00 - [46] Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Nekumi Originally by: Saragael The arguement of not support but not oppsoing would work except past actions are to the contrary. In the war with KD, SF not only supported operations with the pirates but planned them and executed them. Even going so far as to include them in their planning over the long term. So the cry of not supporting seems hollow when the history of SF is looked at. You got some proof to go along with those ridiculous allegations or are you just teasing me? Let's go back to our live-fire exercises in the Mito constellation. On several occasions we camped the Black Rabbits who were docked in a station. Eventually, they would undock and engage us. I suppose that it's a complete coincidence that every time this happened SF ships entered local and warped to the station at optimal range as soon as we opened fire? You where our enemy. Why would we not attack you? Why would we not synchronise our efforts with other people known to be in hostilities with you? Unless you consider our attacks against a declared ideological enemy to be acts of piracy I fail to see how what you've said is anything but pointless.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.23 14:35:00 - [47] Originally by: Nekumi Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Nekumi Originally by: Saragael The arguement of not support but not oppsoing would work except past actions are to the contrary. In the war with KD, SF not only supported operations with the pirates but planned them and executed them. Even going so far as to include them in their planning over the long term. So the cry of not supporting seems hollow when the history of SF is looked at. You got some proof to go along with those ridiculous allegations or are you just teasing me? Let's go back to our live-fire exercises in the Mito constellation. On several occasions we camped the Black Rabbits who were docked in a station. Eventually, they would undock and engage us. I suppose that it's a complete coincidence that every time this happened SF ships entered local and warped to the station at optimal range as soon as we opened fire? You where our enemy. Why would we not attack you? Why would we not synchronise our efforts with other people known to be in hostilities with you? Unless you consider our attacks against a declared ideological enemy to be acts of piracy I fail to see how what you've said is anything but pointless. Thank you for your admission that you were synchronising your efforts against us with the piratical Black Rabbits. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.05.23 14:41:00 - [48] Originally by: Rodj Blake Thank you for your admission that you were synchronising your efforts against us with the piratical Black Rabbits. So where is that different from CVA synchronising its efforts with the piratical IAC ? Star Fraction is recruiting
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.23 14:43:00 - [49] Originally by: Jasmine Constantine Originally by: Rodj Blake Thank you for your admission that you were synchronising your efforts against us with the piratical Black Rabbits. So where is that different from CVA synchronising its efforts with the piratical IAC ? But can IAC really be said to be pirates? Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.05.23 14:52:00 - [50] Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Jasmine Constantine Originally by: Rodj Blake Thank you for your admission that you were synchronising your efforts against us with the piratical Black Rabbits. So where is that different from CVA synchronising its efforts with the piratical IAC ? But can IAC really be said to be pirates? if it can't, can the black rabbits really be said to be pirates? Or is it that you just object to them being honest about what they do? Actually, forgot, honesty is something you've never liked... live fire exercise indeed Can you tell me how synchronising efforts with someone we are not hostile to but is at war with someone that has also declared war on us, is supporting their activities? We have no regard for what they do when it does not involve us. Something you and your side seems very preoccupied with û therefore, what your allies do is a reflection upon you by your own ideology. What ours do, by our own ideology, is their own business. -------------------------------------------- Join Now
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.05.23 14:54:00 - [51] Originally by: Rodj Blake But can IAC really be said to be pirates? Yes, IAC are pirates. They are NBSI they attack neutrals. Thats my personal definition of piracy. Star Fraction is recruiting
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.23 15:00:00 - [52] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 23/05/2007 14:58:27 Originally by: Sable Schroedinger Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Jasmine Constantine Originally by: Rodj Blake Thank you for your admission that you were synchronising your efforts against us with the piratical Black Rabbits. So where is that different from CVA synchronising its efforts with the piratical IAC ? But can IAC really be said to be pirates? if it can't, can the black rabbits really be said to be pirates? Or is it that you just object to them being honest about what they do? Actually, forgot, honesty is something you've never liked... live fire exercise indeed Can you tell me how synchronising efforts with someone we are not hostile to but is at war with someone that has also declared war on us, is supporting their activities? We have no regard for what they do when it does not involve us. Something you and your side seems very preoccupied with û therefore, what your allies do is a reflection upon you by your own ideology. What ours do, by our own ideology, is their own business. The difference between the IAC as far as I can tell is that the Black Rabbits are aligned to the Guristas and actively pirate, whereas I believe that the IAC are a predominantly NRDS 0.0 alliance who occasionally change to NBSI when their territory is threatened. Now, if that's enough to make the IAC pirates, then it follows that Jade Constantine and the rest of the original JF members are also pirates. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.05.23 15:13:00 - [53] were, not are. IAC does... JF did... its like teaching my kid brother to read all over again -------------------------------------------- Join Now
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.23 15:23:00 - [54] Originally by: Sable Schroedinger were, not are. IAC does... JF did... its like teaching my kid brother to read all over again So you consider JF to be ex-pirates then? Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.05.23 15:28:00 - [55] Originally by: Rodj Blake So you consider JF to be ex-pirates then? You have no idea how many Star Fraction members are ex pirates ... Star Fraction is recruiting
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.23 15:32:00 - [56] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 23/05/2007 15:33:12 Originally by: Jasmine Constantine Originally by: Rodj Blake So you consider JF to be ex-pirates then? You have no idea how many Star Fraction members are ex pirates ... Including your cousin according to your definition of piracy. Incidentally, were you in the JF when the NVA adopted an NBSI policy? Anyway since you say that I have no idea about how many SF members are ex-pirates, then please tell me! And also, please tell us if they were flying under the JF banner when they were committing acts of piracy Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.05.23 15:37:00 - [57] Edited by: Jasmine Constantine on 23/05/2007 15:43:42 Originally by: Rodj Blake And also, please tell us if they were flying under the JF banner when they were committing acts of piracy Of course not. Since JF is NRDS we've never committed acts of aggression on neutrals. Now since I've answered one of your questions maybe you'd like to tell me if PIE Inc. is relevant to the Amarrian Empire? Yes or No. Star Fraction is recruiting
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.23 15:45:00 - [58] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 23/05/2007 15:43:00 Originally by: Jasmine Constantine Originally by: Rodj Blake And also, please tell us if they were flying under the JF banner when they were committing acts of piracy Of course not. Since JF is NRDS we've never committed acts of aggression on neutrals. Except of course when you were flying under NBSI. Quote: Now since I've answered one of your questions maybe you'd like to tell me if PIE Inc. is relevant to the Amarrian Empire? Yes or No. How is PIE's relevance to the Empire relevant to the discussion at hand? Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.05.23 15:48:00 - [59] Edited by: Jasmine Constantine on 23/05/2007 15:47:45 Originally by: Rodj Blake Except of course when you were flying under NBSI. Even when we were flying under an NBSI-loving counterrevolutionary council. Why do you think Halseth and the rest staged a coup and kicked us out for being NRDS freespace loving peaceniks ... ? Quote: How is PIE's relevance to the Empire relevant to the discussion at hand? Its relevant to your right to ask us questions since you have never answered my question (above) to any degree of clarity. Star Fraction is recruiting
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.23 15:59:00 - [60] Originally by: Jasmine Constantine Edited by: Jasmine Constantine on 23/05/2007 15:47:45 Originally by: Rodj Blake Except of course when you were flying under NBSI. Even when we were flying under an NBSI-loving counterrevolutionary council. Why do you think Halseth and the rest staged a coup and kicked us out for being NRDS freespace loving peaceniks ... ? So what you're saying is, that JF weren't pirates (according to your definition of piracy), they were just the mouthpieces of the pirates they flew alongside. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.

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