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Minmatar ship for L4 missions

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Dragunov	Posted - 2007.05.26 18:35:00 - [1] Typhoon, Tempest, or Maelstrom? I have battleship 5, T2 torps, T2 artillery, T2 drones, and T2 armour or shield tank. Which ship will do L4 missions best?
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.05.26 21:14:00 - [2] No experience with flying those ships in lev 4 missions actually (I use raven) but I would quess that typhoon should work best in most missions (ie. deadspace where sniping is not really effective option and MWD does not work to get close fast enough). If I would need to I would use it like little raven (with 4 torps) and would use either 1200 mm arties or autocannons in rest of hi slots. Might get a bit tight on fittings section if trying to squeeze in cap injector also but who knows. With good skills it just might fit. Very skill intencive ship tho. Takes drones, missiles and projectiles skills at good levels to squeeze most out of it. With your skills it should be effective enough
SavageDream	Posted - 2007.05.27 01:09:00 - [3] your tank will be the critical piece if you are going to do level 4's by yourself. phoon has more low slots, maelstrom has more mid slots. maelstrom has a little more resource to support the big dps. I run 3 cruise, 5 1400's and a shield tank on the maelstrom. Your drones will have to take out the small frigates that want to web and scram you. if you have the right hardners, you are in good shape with this set up. You'll want to warp in at distance when it lets you so you can get the benefit of the big guns. Torps would probably increase your dps against the bigger ships. fit a ab (or mwd for the missions that allow it) to help keep best target range with the big guns. Be aware of your drones as they will get targeted often. Always be ready to warp if you run these by yourself. My skills are less than yours, so you should be in good shape.
BlackMoon Thrawn the Organ Grinder and Company	Posted - 2007.05.27 01:26:00 - [4] I am using a maelstrom for gallente level 4s atm. I haven't had any problems so far and only a couple missions have even tested the tank. Maelstrom 8 * 1400mm howitzer II Large Shield Booster II 100mn AB II 4 hardeners (t2) 2* PDS II 3 * Gyrostabilizer II cap capacity rig cap recharge rig shield booster cap use reduction rig Thats what I am using now but I would change the rigs around. Probably more damage and fit tracking enhancer IIs in the lows instead of a gyro or 2.
Daanika	Posted - 2007.05.27 18:17:00 - [5] The typhoon is working for me, mostly because of its low slots and big drone bay. I fit: 4 cruise, 2 1200, drone control 4 CR II 2 LAR II, hardeners, 1600 plate 3 cap rigs Some may laugh at the tank overkill, but I can run the whole tank nearly forever-- so no lost ships. Only 5 mil SP, keeps the money rolling in.
SonOfAGhost Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.05.28 03:15:00 - [6] Hurricane w/720mm and Assault launchers. Some of the tougher ones need more than one run to get through them, but missions get too boring if they're too easy.
Fenren	Posted - 2007.05.28 07:58:00 - [7] if you got a lot of skills (and seems you do) and want easy missions i would go for the phoon. it's missiles and drones are good, and i like to fit some med artys on there too the maelstrom has a hell of a tank, cpu/pg to fitt it all and some really nice dps. but the turret drawback can make it painful. if you got good missile, drone, turret, armour and fitting skills, go for the Typhoon. got good turret and shield skills with some decent drones? Go maelstrom
Dr Shameless Skull Soft Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.05.28 09:27:00 - [8] i prefer the tempest, it can both armor and shield tank, and its faster then maelstrom and does more damage.
Freyjan Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.05.28 16:44:00 - [9] I've only been running lvl 4 missions for a little over a week to generate some extra isk, but the Maelstrom has been working wonderfully for me thus far. ==Highs== 8x1400mm Prototype I Siege Cannon ==Mids== X-Large Shield Booster II Shield Amplifier 4 Active Hardeners, 2 of each resist needed ( I primarily fight the Amarr, so my em/therm resists are something like 86/81) ==Lows== 3xGyrostabilizer IIs 1xDCU II 1xPDS II ==Drones== 5 tech II mediums of the appropriate damage type, to deal with the more dangerous frigs, and BCs if I'm concentrating on killing the battleships. Haven't had any problems so far, save for the one mission where I accidentally killed a trigger too early, and had 7 BS wailing on me. That required a few warp outs and ins, but still finished it quickly enough.
Alrich	Posted - 2007.05.29 10:12:00 - [10] i find the 1200 to be better, the rof is so much better and the tracking too. when killing small ships it is ¦painful enough to wait for the small ones
Z'Blikker	Posted - 2007.05.29 10:34:00 - [11] Edited by: Z''Blikker on 29/05/2007 10:34:18 first post @Freyjan i used the same setup. but it worked not so good for me. what ammo do you use? the high damage ammo had to short range and ... @OP typhoon ftw! 4x cruise 3x 1200 scout 1x drone range 1x AB II 2x Targetpainter 1x Sensorbooster 1x Large AR II 3x Hardener 1x DC II 2x BCS II 2x CCC 1x repair amount
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.05.29 10:47:00 - [12] Originally by: Z'Blikker @Freyjan i used the same setup. but it worked not so good for me. what ammo do you use? the high damage ammo had to short range and ... I guess the issue here is that Freyjan has a very very 'tolerant' idea of what is good for missions. Quote: That required a few warp outs and ins, but still finished it quickly enough. That says it all. Besides the Maelstrom, or any projectile ship for that matter, being very bad at missioning in the first place, even one warpout usually totally destroys a missions isk/time value. If a few warpouts still allow him to finish the mission 'quickly enough', I question his clue about quality mission running. Or maybe that maelstrom is so damn slow at missions that a warpout or three really don't make a difference? Thank you SkyFlyer! There is no 'n' in tur
Arondos Minmatar Old Timers Guild	Posted - 2007.05.29 17:41:00 - [13] Or maybe some of us don't want to fly the same Caldari mission runnner everyone else is flying and could really care less if the Minm ship is the best or most efficient mission runner? Life isn't fair and neither is Eve. Get over it.
RuriHoshino Minmatar The Mission Guys	Posted - 2007.05.29 22:48:00 - [14] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Or maybe that maelstrom is so damn slow at missions that a warpout or three really don't make a difference? Yeah, you Caldari and your n00bstick spitters - some of us like flying skill-intensive piles of rusted pipe filled with jet fuel and ammo Large turrets never struck me as being useful for much other than sniping. The tracking on large autocannons is useable, but you need to be a lot more maneuverable than a Maelstrom to keep your angular velocity down, not to mention getting into range to use them in the first place. Mediums do well, but you fit on smaller ships that can keep up with and sometimes outmaneuver frigates (Stabber!). Undergunning a battleship makes absolutely no sense, either, because you generally need to max your dps. Does this make the Maelstrom a horrible mission runner? Not at all, particularly if you learn what the triggers and exact objectives are for each mission. I've found in practice that you can make almost any ship work for almost any mission if you plan it right and fly smart, which sometimes takes some effort. That's why I suppose people like Caldari for missions, because it takes so little effort to park and target-pop-target-pop npc's, and most people regard mission running as a boring but necessary grind for faction/money. Get a 'phoon and play with the fittings. It really is a jack of all trades, and it's on the whole less expensive to fit out than the others. And if you like, you can even have fun flying it! Something Raven pilots will never know... _______________________________________________________________ The Mission Guys - Scavenging the remains of our fallen enemies since 2007
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.05.29 23:30:00 - [15] Originally by: RuriHoshino Originally by: Leandro Salazar Or maybe that maelstrom is so damn slow at missions that a warpout or three really don't make a difference? Yeah, you Caldari and your n00bstick spitters - some of us like flying skill-intensive piles of rusted pipe filled with jet fuel and ammo Large turrets never struck me as being useful for much other than sniping. The tracking on large autocannons is useable, but you need to be a lot more maneuverable than a Maelstrom to keep your angular velocity down, not to mention getting into range to use them in the first place. Mediums do well, but you fit on smaller ships that can keep up with and sometimes outmaneuver frigates (Stabber!). Undergunning a battleship makes absolutely no sense, either, because you generally need to max your dps. Does this make the Maelstrom a horrible mission runner? Not at all, particularly if you learn what the triggers and exact objectives are for each mission. I've found in practice that you can make almost any ship work for almost any mission if you plan it right and fly smart, which sometimes takes some effort. That's why I suppose people like Caldari for missions, because it takes so little effort to park and target-pop-target-pop npc's, and most people regard mission running as a boring but necessary grind for faction/money. Get a 'phoon and play with the fittings. It really is a jack of all trades, and it's on the whole less expensive to fit out than the others. And if you like, you can even have fun flying it! Something Raven pilots will never know... I run most of my missions in an Abaddon atm, so sorry, no pure Caldari lover here. (Though of course I do have a CNR for the non blood/sansha/drone missions). I simply use the best tool for the job. And in missions, Minmatar ships are nowhere near the best tool. The thing with Matari ships is that regardless of how much effort you put in and how well you manoever your ship, it simply lacks dps. I have a faction fitted Machariel with 6 Hakim Arties too, and it is great fun to fly, but it is utterly inefficient in missions compared to Abaddon and CNR. And this is not due to some perceived difficulty in turret useage, but due to bad raw dps numbers and pre-nerfed T1 ammo. Sure the ships tank fine and do enough damage to finish the missions, but they just do not finish them very fast. Max damage of Abaddon with 4 Selynne Tachs, 4 Selynne Megabeams, @ MF, and 3 TS HS: 863 dps @ 52/46 km ideal range. Max damage of CNR with 5 Dread Siege and 2 Domi Siege, 3 DG BCU and 2 hydraulic bay thruster rigs: 714 dps @ up to 72 km range Max damage of Maelstrom with 4 Hakim 1400s and 4 Hakim 1200s, @ PP, and 3 Domi Gyros: 521 dps @ 59/51 km ideal range. So the Abaddon does 65% more damage, and in better damage types too as long as you use it against the correctÖ enemies. Not to mention its better tracking. The CNR does 37% better damage that is 100% in the ideal damage type, and doesn't even need tracking. And the Maelstrom just sucks compared. Pardon the faction/officer stuff in my examples, but the ratios stay the same for lesser equipment. All racial BS are at lvl4, all relevant gunnery skills at 5. I do agree that most people use caldari because they're lazy and unimaginative. Heck, they use cruise missiles, which even the maelstrom can compare with dps-wise. But some use them because they are best or at least second best when fitted for efficient mission running. Something no minmatar ship will ever be. And that is what makes the Maelstrom a bad mission runner indeed. It is not about being able to do them. Every BS except maybe the Scorp can finish almost every mission. The factor deciding the quality of the ship is how FAST it finishes them. Minmatar strengths in the damage department are close range tank+gank, and long range alpha strikes. Both are meaningless in missions, and thus their ships just don't make great mission rides. Thank you SkyFlyer! There is no 'n' in tur
Enduros	Posted - 2007.05.30 13:33:00 - [16] Tempest or Machariel with 1200 guns works nice.
Toria Nynys Minmatar	Posted - 2007.05.30 15:04:00 - [17] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Minmatar strengths in the damage department are close range tank+gank, and long range alpha strikes. Both are meaningless in missions, and thus their ships just don't make great mission rides. This sums it up precisely. Correct tool for the job is my motto. Want epeen points for doing missions in challenging ships? More power to you, but going for the 'best of the worst' makes no sense. Go ahead and try the tough missions in a pest or a mael or a scorp even to prove you're tough. But if you want to do them as your income source you might consider something a bit more suited for the task. Missions are just grindable content -- if you're going to optimize go all out. And all out IMO is good carebear skills (social), and the ability to fly caldari & gallente well (sorry, no experience w/ amarr for missioning).
mrhateboy Vale Heavy Industries	Posted - 2007.05.30 16:58:00 - [18] Edited by: mrhateboy on 30/05/2007 17:01:45 Edited by: mrhateboy on 30/05/2007 17:00:05 I would think an arty fit sleipnir might do well in lvl4s. It should have no tanking issues, and medium artillery should have no trouble popping any of the rats in them. You can even fit a decent amount of dmg on it. Something like this would work: high: 7x 720 II 1x Assult Launcher med: tank low: 2x PDU II 3x Gyro II The 190 or so PG and 281cpu are plenty for an adequate lvl4 tank. --H8
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.05.30 18:02:00 - [19] 'fraid that is not a decent amount of damage unless you use T2 ammo, which has its own issues. Tbh med arties are even worse off than large ones due to small clip size and high rof. Been there, tried sleip because I thought it would do well enough in theory. Turns out it didn't. Had an unbreakable tank but an unbearable gank. Thank you SkyFlyer! There is no 'n' in tur
mrhateboy Vale Heavy Industries	Posted - 2007.05.30 18:19:00 - [20] Originally by: Leandro Salazar 'fraid that is not a decent amount of damage unless you use T2 ammo, which has its own issues. Tbh med arties are even worse off than large ones due to small clip size and high rof. Been there, tried sleip because I thought it would do well enough in theory. Turns out it didn't. Had an unbreakable tank but an unbearable gank. That I suppose I could understand. PP would probably be the most useful T1 PvE ammo, and would only get about the same DPS as a nighthawk. But that's ignoring the obvious drawbacks of arty v.s. the nighthawk's missiles. --H8
RuriHoshino Minmatar The Mission Guys	Posted - 2007.05.30 20:39:00 - [21] Originally by: Toria Nynys This sums it up precisely. Correct tool for the job is my motto. Want epeen points for doing missions in challenging ships? More power to you, but going for the 'best of the worst' makes no sense. Yes, I am clearly worried about the size of my electronic "member" If all you really care about is money, make an industrial character and churn out datacores. 15-20 mil isk per day without even having to log in except to place a sell order or two. Wouldn't that be a better "tool" than mindless grinding? Besides, I don't quite agree that close range combat is meaningless in missions. It takes more work to make it work, but whether my damage comes from using drones or acting like one it still kills bugs dead. I think the fundamental question is whether you expect PvE to be any sort of fun, or if you regard it as a boring grind. If the former, experiment and try things that are a little different / stupid. It's your isk and your time. If the latter, get a Raven. It has nothing to do with being "tough" or not. It's just that some of us have our own idea about what constitutes "optimal." _______________________________________________________________ The Mission Guys - Scavenging the remains of our fallen enemies since 2007
Toria Nynys Minmatar	Posted - 2007.05.30 21:16:00 - [22] Originally by: RuriHoshino size of my electronic "member" If all you really care about is money, make an industrial character and churn out datacores. 15-20 mil isk per day without even having to log in except to place a sell order or two. Wouldn't that be a better "tool" than mindless grinding? Absolutely. But the two are complimentary, and can be done at the same time. BTW, you can't churn out datacores without grinding up faction. And grinding up that faction takes a few hundred missions. Also, research skills take about 2 months to come into their own, while starting the mission grind (even L4s) can be done sooner than that. Missions were fun the first few times I did them in different ships. If you can see them as fresh and exciting even after the hundredth or thousandth time in the same mission, more power to you. I view missions as boring, mandatory grind content to unlock other content I'm interested in. Which is what makes eve great, there's no one thing which works for everyone.
RuriHoshino Minmatar The Mission Guys	Posted - 2007.05.30 21:58:00 - [23] Edited by: RuriHoshino on 30/05/2007 21:58:44 Originally by: Toria Nynys Missions were fun the first few times I did them in different ships. If you can see them as fresh and exciting even after the hundredth or thousandth time in the same mission, more power to you. I view missions as boring, mandatory grind content to unlock other content I'm interested in. Which is what makes eve great, there's no one thing which works for everyone. /signed. I helped a friend of mine with that grind, so point taken. After a while all you really want to do is get your standing and move on. For me, missions are just a way to experiment with modules and make money while my skills train to where I want them. If PvE combat wasn't so vastly different from PvP, then it might also be a decent way to train for 0.0, but that's already a discussion thread itself. BTW, our corp name comes from out-of-game, so it shouldn't be taken to mean that mission running is all we do _______________________________________________________________ The Mission Guys - Scavenging the remains of our fallen enemies since 2007
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.05.30 23:44:00 - [24] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 30/05/2007 23:46:12 Originally by: RuriHoshino Besides, I don't quite agree that close range combat is meaningless in missions. It takes more work to make it work, but whether my damage comes from using drones or acting like one it still kills bugs dead. I think the fundamental question is whether you expect PvE to be any sort of fun, or if you regard it as a boring grind. Well to me missions are a fun grind if there can be such a thing. Use ever better tools to achieve ever better performance to buy ever better tools to achieve ever better performance. I guess its like athletics or something. You always do the same thing, but try to be better every time, which keeps it exciting. (Obviously I don't use lameass boring cookiecutter permatanking afk setups but borderline tanking uberganks). And inefficient ships don't fit in that equation. And close range combat IS inefficient in missions. It is funny that you mention drones in the same sentence, since both have exactly the same problem. That is not lack of damage, but way too much time spend traveling from one BS orbiting you at 40km to the next. And since I tried this in a Machariel with officer ACs and falloff rigs, which is arguably the best closerange ship for mission running seeing how it is the fastest and has the best range, it simply does not work very well. I did finish for example The Blockade with it no problem, just it took like 45-50 mins while I do it in 30-35 in CNR or Abaddon... Thank you SkyFlyer! There is no 'n' in tur
The Doct0r Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.03 12:03:00 - [25] Originally by: Dragunov Typhoon, Tempest, or Maelstrom? I have battleship 5, T2 torps, T2 artillery, T2 drones, and T2 armour or shield tank. Which ship will do L4 missions best? Depends on your taste really.. Phoons are a fun ship to start LVL 4's off with. Mael, if you have good Shield skills & can keep the npc's at a distance. Tempest (my fav.) with an armor tank and 70/40 mix of Arties & launchers. If you really want to test your skills though, jump in a Rupture & see how ya get on * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Always ready to perform!!!! cough _______________________________________ Always back up comments with hard facts
BlackMoon Thrawn the Organ Grinder and Company	Posted - 2007.06.03 14:19:00 - [26] The problem with the Tempest and Typhoon, and why I ended up with a Maelstrom, is the power grid. 1400 II give that extra 8% damage with large artillery spec level 4. That means at range, which is quite a bit over optimal most times, it takes 2-3 guns to pop a frig, 1 volley for most cruisers and a volley and a half for battle cruisers. With a Tempest you get half a gun more base damage Provided you are fitting a shield tank and 3 gyros. With a Typhoon you can get more damage but you have to include everything, and frankly I'm not a big fan of drones on missions. You will also need fitting mods to get everything on and that takes away from your tank. With the skills and ships you mention the maelstrom is your best bet. There are, of course, other ships out there that do it better, but that doesn't have anything to do with the OP. The only real problem with artillery is the range/tracking. Most missions only 1 spawn aggros at warp in and even the sluggish Mael is fast enough to outrun everything but frigs with a t2 ab. Simply align for the celestial object that is closest to directly away from the npcs and start fireing when you get 30k or so. I also use the highest damage ammo for the weakest resist. Fusion, Phased Plasma, EMP and Titanium Sabot do more damage at ranges outside their optimal than the other ammo does inside it, provided the angular velocity is low.
Epoch	Posted - 2007.06.05 02:38:00 - [27] the phoon is a fine mission runner. is it as fast as a raven? no. can it do lvl 4's? yes. is it really worth the absurd amount of time it takes to train for it? thats debatable. you can be in a tempest in a shorter period of time.. or a raven.. or any bs for that matter. the phoon is the most skill intensive bs. keep that in mind if you plan on flying one.

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