Originally by: Rosur

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Edited by: Rosur on 27/05/2007 16:06:00
Sensor damps u can just use sensor boosters aginst as u get more targeting range in a sensor booster than is lossed by a sensor damperner them or use speed to get closer to ure target.

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Originally by: James Lyrus

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Sensor booster II = 60% more range.
RSD II = 50% range reduction.

100% x 1.6 x 0.5 = 80% range.

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Originally by: Phaedruss

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Sensor boosters significantly increase the odds of first lock capability. With first lock, the scan resolution penalty is irrelevant. In terms of facing a gang, then a single ship needs to accept some kind of disadvantage.

How long have dampeners been in the game? How long have the serious dampener whine threads been around? I haven't been in Eve that long and honestly dont know the answer, but I suspect the whines got louder after ECM got the nerf. If this is the case, it serves to show that nerfing is a vicious circle that needs to stop.

As soon as something gets nerfed there are those that immediately latch onto the next best thing as being too powerful. It kills the game and rewards the stupid, unimaginative and lazy, leading to a devolution of the game and player base.

Dampeners are only really useful when several are used on a single target. One or even two dampeners will often reduce a target's targeting range by less than the actual engagement range anyway, and the scan resolution penalties only slow down locking ability, and then only if the target doesn't get first lock. So bear in mind that dampeners are not only often completely useless unless given the right conditions, they also take up valuable mid-slots for shield tankers, other EW, cap and propulsion/cap mods.

So, the other guy has sacrificed 3 or 4 mid-slots for dampeners? If people are so damned worried about it, try training long range targeting and putting a couple of sensor boosters on. So you still won't have your 90km locking range, but you'll have the first lock opportunity, negating half the advantage of damps, and will likely save you from being unable to target within scramble range. Don't want to sacrifice the mid slots? TBH the other guy deserves to win for being bold and making the sacrifice.

To show that damps are overpowered to the extent that a change in the status quo is required, the numbers need to be crunched, and then considered along with necessary sacrifices/reasonable counter measures and engagement scenarios.

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Originally by: Yarek Balear

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Edited by: Yarek Balear on 27/05/2007 17:34:44
OK, what is it with the Nerf this, nerf that brigade? This is even a post from the OP who says "I don't think there's anything wrong with them", then goes on to say that he thinks they could be nerfed slightly...

Wtf is wrong with you people ??? Seriously ???

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Originally by: CCP Tuxford

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I prefer dew over pepsi. I prefer beer over most things. Damn now I want beer.

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Originally by: Yarek Balear

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Edited by: Yarek Balear on 27/05/2007 17:34:44
OK, what is it with the Nerf this, nerf that brigade? This is even a post from the OP who says "I don't think there's anything wrong with them", then goes on to say that he thinks they could be nerfed slightly...

Wtf is wrong with you people ??? Seriously ???

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Originally by: Yarek Balear

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Edited by: Yarek Balear on 27/05/2007 17:34:44
OK, what is it with the Nerf this, nerf that brigade? This is even a post from the OP who says "I don't think there's anything wrong with them", then goes on to say that he thinks they could be nerfed slightly...

Wtf is wrong with you people ??? Seriously ???

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QFT!

I mean, really, saying that "there's nothing wrong with damps" and "they could be nerfed slightly" sounds like the OP is some sort of nerf addict. It's not really necessary, but he didn't get his daily nerf in a while.

Anyway, back on topic. Dampeners are really only lethal on specialised ships as it stands. One non-bonused dampener isn't something that'll give you any real PvP utility on a ship. In fact, it's a wasted slot in most situations.
Specialised EWAR ships *have* to fit most of their mids with ewar and sacrifice preety much everything else to work properly and give you that "omg" effect. Leave it alone.

If a module isn't a "must-fit or else" thing, like NOS, it's fine. Stop trying to nerf everything into oblivion!

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Originally by: William Hamilton

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ECCM / Sensor backups do have advantages other than countering ECM. They mkae you harder to probe out.

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Originally by: Fluffernator

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sensor dampeners are quite overpowered. They are overpowered ot the point I fit them on my caldari boats quiete frequently....... anyone ever hear od the 7 damp scorpian? lols....

ECM was nerfed into oblivion, formerly it used all your mids ot be effective, now it uses all your mids and high slots effectively nerfing it to ****. A scorp used to be able to fit an armor tank with its ecm but now it cannot its forced to use its low slots as well. I am ok with this, minus the fact taht sensor dampeners dont need a similar mod, and are just as effective on a specialized EW gallente ship. The gallente recons will damp battleships down to like 3-4km range...... and they still get their high slots, and its not chance based.

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Originally by: General Coochie

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Edited by: General Coochie on 27/05/2007 17:58:48
Edited by: General Coochie on 27/05/2007 17:55:59
I can agree that dampners are very powerfull against standard cookie cutter setups 1v1.
Its true as someone said I can damp cruisers and BC and even HACs to under 10km, have them webbed and just wear em down slowly. Note this only works with dedicated dampning ships no other ship can damp under 10km while at the same time tackle except for a couple of recons.

There is however a very effective counters to dampners.

ECM Drones.

They aggro automaticly, you dont need to get a lock. If they manage to break lock just once, during the several minutes it takes for a dedicated dampning dedicated ship to break another ships tank, you get back lock time and range instantly and its extremely easy to quickly counter web the dampning ship and approach it. Once within about 10km the dampning ship is BBQed, his poor tank and dps wont help him.

If you got 5 medium ECM drones each one of them have a 5% chance to successfully ECM a lachesis every 20 seconds. (22% global chance)

If you ship cannot handle the lachesis/arazus dps during the time you have to wait to get a ECM off I dont think its the dampners that are the problem.

I havent flewn a rapier or a curse myself. But if these ships are overpowered with damps it seems that its the ships themselfs that are overpowered together with damps. Not the damps alone.

If ppl would only look away from the standard dps-tackle-tank builds they would have no problem with damps. If you feel dampners are to much of a problem just pack some ECM drones with you, there arent many ships that cannot afford to pack some ECM drones with them.

ECM drones are also effective even in encounters where you dont have to counter damps.

edit: Lachesis has one of the highest sensor strenths in game.
edit2: So far my celestis has been BBQed in about 40sec against ppl that used ECM drones.

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Originally by: General Coochie

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If you got 5 medium ECM drones each one of them have a 5% chance to successfully ECM a lachesis every 20 seconds. (22% global chance)

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Originally by: Earthan

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Originally by: Xtreem

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the thing i really dont like is just a few of these units mess with carriers and un seiged dreads way too much, even with 2 sensor boosters a damp ship can make a carrier next to usless becuase of lock times and ranges.

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Ok but i can see that but then the solution is to boost capital defences against ew not nerf dampeners

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Originally by: William Hamilton

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ECCM / Sensor backups do have advantages other than countering ECM. They mkae you harder to probe out.

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Originally by: Phaedruss

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Sensor boosters significantly increase the odds of first lock capability. With first lock, the scan resolution penalty is irrelevant. In terms of facing a gang, then a single ship needs to accept some kind of disadvantage.

How long have dampeners been in the game? How long have the serious dampener whine threads been around? I haven't been in Eve that long and honestly dont know the answer, but I suspect the whines got louder after ECM got the nerf. If this is the case, it serves to show that nerfing is a vicious circle that needs to stop.

As soon as something gets nerfed there are those that immediately latch onto the next best thing as being too powerful. It kills the game and rewards the stupid, unimaginative and lazy, leading to a devolution of the game and player base.

Dampeners are only really useful when several are used on a single target. One or even two dampeners will often reduce a target's targeting range by less than the actual engagement range anyway, and the scan resolution penalties only slow down locking ability, and then only if the target doesn't get first lock. So bear in mind that dampeners are not only often completely useless unless given the right conditions, they also take up valuable mid-slots for shield tankers, other EW, cap and propulsion/cap mods.

So, the other guy has sacrificed 3 or 4 mid-slots for dampeners? If people are so damned worried about it, try training long range targeting and putting a couple of sensor boosters on. So you still won't have your 90km locking range, but you'll have the first lock opportunity, negating half the advantage of damps, and will likely save you from being unable to target within scramble range. Don't want to sacrifice the mid slots? TBH the other guy deserves to win for being bold and making the sacrifice.

To show that damps are overpowered to the extent that a change in the status quo is required, the numbers need to be crunched, and then considered along with necessary sacrifices/reasonable counter measures and engagement scenarios.

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Originally by: madaluap

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Simply nerf: give them 50% less effectiveness, than restore that through the bonus on specialised vessels. Tadaa just like ECM, they can now only be *properly* used on a specialised ship.

This will satisfy the whiners....i hope. Damps really arent that strong, they need to be used in pairs atleast and its far less *lame* than ECM is.

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Originally by: Neuromandis

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Dampners are perfect. The problem is that the rest of the EW is slowly and surely nerfed to be worse than them.
-ECM is now USELESS on anything but the 5 dedicated ships in the game (grif, bb, rook, falc, scorp)
-painter works but was never good, and people prefer EW to be defensive rather than offensive (the only thing a TP does is to add damage to someone)
That leaves you with only Damps and TD's as normal EW, and both work perfectly. TD is more effective against its single type of target, but Damps also allow you to escape sometimes and works against pretty much anyone, making it the EW of choice. The only thing TD's have working for them is that you don't need 3 on a target to have an effect.

Short answer: SD's should set the new "standard of usefulness" for all EW - they have somehow achieved the perfect balance. They are strong enough to be fitted, but not strong enough to be mandatory. They may disable a single ship, and even then they are borderline counterable (you CAN close up to your enemy and eventually lock him) if you offer 3 slots, or hamper many if you dedicate less.

I personally would like to see more EW in the game in general, but at the state things are now, for this to be possible, a LOT of changes would be needed in the game. If you ask me, the fact that atm only specialized ships use EWAR (i.e. nanos and recons) is simply a pity.

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Originally by: Kailiao

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What happend to skill, ship fitting knowledge, and the 3+ years you spend in gunnery, tanking, and spaceship command, only to have that not matter anymore, becouse of a single ew mod?

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