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Earthan Gallente The Absolutely Amazing Fire Eaters Breidablik	Posted - 2007.05.27 10:35:00 - [1] !! warning if you cant be bothered to read my whole post plz dont reply. I dont want another useless thread.!! I have been reading quite a few posts about how dampeners are overpowered and i must say i mostly disagree. I think in case of most of the arguments you take the perfect conditions and say its overpowered,its like taking balsters and saying" omg nerf nerf cause its got uber dmg" well yeah but the range gets in the way ALOT in most of cases doesnt it? My counter arguments that dampeners are so better then ecm atm: 1- The range : dampners 1 got optimal of 25 km while racial ecm got 45 km. When you fit on specialized ships with bonuses it does make a big difference. 2-Ecm , if succesfull will break the lock of any attacker.In case of dampneners if enemy is near and has you targeted dampners are useless.( wich does happen alot in small gate battles) 3-If you get dampned you still can, if you are fast, get near enemy, target and attack. In case of ecm you can do jack. 4- The counter to dampners sensor boosters have valued effect apart from countering dampeners, many ships fit them even if they dont think about dampners.If you want to counter ECM you must waste a med/low slot with a module that does nothing else then countering ecm. So in end i dont think dampners are so much better then ecm atm , maybe dampners should get slightly nerfed , but only slightly. - Killing Eve bullies all over the galaxy
Trovarion Gallente Spiritus Draconis	Posted - 2007.05.27 10:41:00 - [2] maybe dampeners should not be touched at all? Custom made EVE Sigs and Graphics
Morreia The Celestial Element	Posted - 2007.05.27 10:42:00 - [3] I personally dislike any modules that the pilot is powerless to do anything about if they get used on him. If you get jumped by a skilled pilot using damps short of running away if you are faster than him there is absolutly nothing you can do about it. Even with ECM you at least get a chance they will fail and although I think its slightly odd being able to win a fight by that much luck and not skills you at least have a chance. I think if the took away or reduced the penalty to signature then it would be better because with a bit of careful manouevering you stand a better chance of being able to do something in the fight apart from run.
Earthan Gallente The Absolutely Amazing Fire Eaters Breidablik	Posted - 2007.05.27 10:48:00 - [4] Edited by: Earthan on 27/05/2007 10:47:33 Originally by: Morreia I personally dislike any modules that the pilot is powerless to do anything about if they get used on him. If you get jumped by a skilled pilot using damps short of running away if you are faster than him there is absolutly nothing you can do about it. Sorry but its untrue. Exactly against dampners, if you are faster then the dampening ship, you can approach and target him and kill. That was exactly one of my points. - Killing Eve bullies all over the galaxy
Aleric Vikyz Shadow Of The Light R i s e	Posted - 2007.05.27 10:59:00 - [5] Edited by: Aleric Vikyz on 27/05/2007 10:58:44 Edited by: Aleric Vikyz on 27/05/2007 10:57:33 Originally by: Morreia I personally dislike any modules that the pilot is powerless to do anything about if they get used on him. Have you ever heard of sensor boosters? Sensor damps are fine.
Raxxius Maelstrom	Posted - 2007.05.27 11:15:00 - [6] Problem with damps is they trump all your skill points in gunnery. Dictating range so you have to get close is a nightmare vs ships designed to fight up close. Personally I do thin Damps are overpowered. And alot isn't a word. Well it is, but it doesn't mean what you think it does.
Teani Gallente omen. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.27 11:18:00 - [7] So an arazu with 3 damps should be able to knock my faction sensor boosted carrier down to under 10km then hmmmm , get a grip damps are very powerfull with minimal skills and are totally overpower against capitals Signature Your signature exceeds the 24000 byte limit on the forums -Darth Patches
MuffinsRevenger EmpiresMod	Posted - 2007.05.27 11:20:00 - [8] Dampners never fail, that makes them incredibly hard to combat If you have somone with half a brain using dampners they will use a mwd and a 24k scram together with their damps, making it impossible for you to get close enough to do annything about it what so ever while dampners have their weeknesses (as well put) their advantages are incredible It's like when missiles did full damage no matter the target size, sure, you can ECM the ship or you can just stay outside 70km, and missiles are (well, where for the examples point) slow enough to outrun, their advantage was to incredible to be overlooked Somthing needs to be done, but exactly what is a good question that needs answering
Rohnda	Posted - 2007.05.27 11:29:00 - [9] Ohh so the falcon and rook are able to knock out any ships lock 24/7 ? c'mon guys Dampeners are fine.. each race has its own Electronic warefare.. so plz stop whining about it.. its a part of the game ! And saying **** like recons take my carrier under 10 km lock.. Yes because its designed to scramble at long range and dampen people down so they cant touch it and warp away. Curse - can take down any gun boat no matter what gun skills if it fitts tracking disruptors ( the amarr EW ) are they then overpowered ? Rapier - actually nothing wrong with it.. except it can keep any tacklers away from it self :)
Earthan Gallente The Absolutely Amazing Fire Eaters Breidablik	Posted - 2007.05.27 11:29:00 - [10] Originally by: Teani So an arazu with 3 damps should be able to knock my faction sensor boosted carrier down to under 10km then hmmmm , get a grip damps are very powerfull with minimal skills and are totally overpower against capitals Im pretty sure it wont get under 30 km a carrer even with max skills.Maybe not even belwo 50 km, but i wouyld have to test it. The dampener effect stack.OFC you would have a hellish lock time tough:) But if you dont fit an eccm a single falcon with racial jammers, would prolly jamm your carrer also most of the time no?At any range , with nothign you can do about it... - Killing Eve bullies all over the galaxy
Kremlath	Posted - 2007.05.27 11:32:00 - [11] Make them chance-based just like ecm?
Spaced Skunk D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.27 11:33:00 - [12] Edited by: Spaced Skunk on 27/05/2007 11:32:20 Firstly, I will add that it takes 2 (with high skills) to 3 damps to bring a target to under 15km targetting range or lower. Basically its a few setups, that are indeed OVERPOWERED! I even fly one of these setups, I know myself its overpowered. That setup be, huginn or rapier with dampeners instead of shield tank. This ship can hold a target down from 34KM away @ lvl 4, and dampen them to less than 10KM easy, and deal enough dps on most ships to kill em over a period of time. Now I've seen them all too often, a mix of rapier/huginn/damp-raven/dictor in a gang, and they are plain hell to fight, in some cases I might as well have been in a hauler. The other plainly overpowered setup, is the Curse with damps. Completely screws the opponent over unless you were lucky enough to land close to it and engaged asap. In todays EvE PVP, theres at least 3 modules you need in the mediums to do well solo or in a small gang, they are propulsion/scram/cap injector. Long ranged in fleets, your normally so far away anyway, that 1 damp will screw you from targetting the enemy fleet. If damps were nerfed to specialised damp ships, well, I dunno. Its just one of those things I guess, damps are definatly overpowered on huginns/rapiers/curses though.
Castra Noor	Posted - 2007.05.27 11:39:00 - [13] A few dampeners on a frig can disable a carrier. Now go try this with ECM and then compare.
DeadRow Magnificent Beavers Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.05.27 11:54:00 - [14] Damps aren't overpowered but are very overused thanks to the ECM 'nerf'. Give the same nerf to damps an it will be sorted (half/quarter their effectiveness and give a boost to bonus' on ships specialised in them. /DeadRow snip - signature removed, please email us with a link if you wish to know why. -Ivan K
Bazman Caldari Werda Fookarwii	Posted - 2007.05.27 12:19:00 - [15] Damps are the only form of EW that I actually like. TD's too because while they have disabling effects, they are quite easily counterable compared to ECM. You can get closer to the target, you can have your drones out and idle waiting for the enemy to damp you, you can FOF the guy damping you etc. No doubt there is combinations of setups that make it look like dampeners are overpowered, but hey, thats a COMBO of modules. Damps, Warp Disrupter II's, MWD's on Gallente Recons, which is virtually impossible to sustain unless you sacrafice most of your lows for cap recharge. Individually, the modules pretty useless, you'll find a dampener ship will commonly use 3 of its meds in order to be of any use. I think this is fine. On the issue of carriers though, its the Carriers that have the problem, not the dampeners. Carriers should have some sort of inate resistance to electronic warfare. -----
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.05.27 13:03:00 - [16] Originally by: Earthan Edited by: Earthan on 27/05/2007 10:47:33 Originally by: Morreia I personally dislike any modules that the pilot is powerless to do anything about if they get used on him. If you get jumped by a skilled pilot using damps short of running away if you are faster than him there is absolutly nothing you can do about it. Sorry but its untrue. Exactly against dampners, if you are faster then the dampening ship, you can approach and target him and kill. That was exactly one of my points. Not when your lock time is 2 minutes. PvP fights are way to short for that. IMO dampeners are overpowered, because of the dual effect. Split 'em out, and they'll be ok.
NightmareX Caldari Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.05.27 13:09:00 - [17] Look here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=492597&page=3#73 Do i need to say more than that? Infinitus Odium - We Are The Bringers Of Hatred
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.27 13:16:00 - [18] Originally by: James Lyrus IMO dampeners are overpowered, because of the dual effect. Split 'em out, and they'll be ok. Agreed. The locking time increase give damp ships a too big safety net in case someone gets too close. Which makes their weakness no real weakness. Originally by: NightmareX Do i need to say more than that? A recon can disable a BS without countermeasures? News at 7! I would argue that is actually their whole point. Although I would agree that damps work too well at range.
NightmareX Caldari Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.05.27 13:19:00 - [19] Edited by: NightmareX on 27/05/2007 13:19:41 Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: James Lyrus IMO dampeners are overpowered, because of the dual effect. Split 'em out, and they'll be ok. Agreed. The locking time increase give damp ships a too big safety net in case someone gets too close. Which makes their weakness no real weakness. Originally by: NightmareX Do i need to say more than that? A recon can disable a BS without countermeasures? News at 7! I would argue that is actually their whole point. Although I would agree that damps work too well at range. Yeah i can agree on that recon ships are ok with the damps, but the normal ships is not ok. Infinitus Odium - We Are The Bringers Of Hatred
Neuromandis Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.27 13:19:00 - [20] Dampners are perfect. The problem is that the rest of the EW is slowly and surely nerfed to be worse than them. -ECM is now USELESS on anything but the 5 dedicated ships in the game (grif, bb, rook, falc, scorp) -painter works but was never good, and people prefer EW to be defensive rather than offensive (the only thing a TP does is to add damage to someone) That leaves you with only Damps and TD's as normal EW, and both work perfectly. TD is more effective against its single type of target, but Damps also allow you to escape sometimes and works against pretty much anyone, making it the EW of choice. The only thing TD's have working for them is that you don't need 3 on a target to have an effect. Short answer: SD's should set the new "standard of usefulness" for all EW - they have somehow achieved the perfect balance. They are strong enough to be fitted, but not strong enough to be mandatory. They may disable a single ship, and even then they are borderline counterable (you CAN close up to your enemy and eventually lock him) if you offer 3 slots, or hamper many if you dedicate less. I personally would like to see more EW in the game in general, but at the state things are now, for this to be possible, a LOT of changes would be needed in the game. If you ask me, the fact that atm only specialized ships use EWAR (i.e. nanos and recons) is simply a pity.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.27 13:27:00 - [21] Originally by: NightmareX Yeah i can agree on that recon ships are ok with the damps, but the normal ships is not ok. Exept: - he was using 3-4 meds for damps, you were using not a single med for counter modules - he had max EW skills, you had only long range targeting 1 You might as well complain that someone is outtanking you because he had better skills and was using more modules.
NightmareX Caldari Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.05.27 13:30:00 - [22] Edited by: NightmareX on 27/05/2007 13:32:55 Quote: you had only long range targeting 1. Wrong, it's at level 5 Quote: You might as well complain that someone is outtanking you because he had better skills and was using more modules I agree on that Infinitus Odium - We Are The Bringers Of Hatred
Xtreem Gallente Space Chickz	Posted - 2007.05.27 13:41:00 - [23] the thing i really dont like is just a few of these units mess with carriers and un seiged dreads way too much, even with 2 sensor boosters a damp ship can make a carrier next to usless becuase of lock times and ranges.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.27 13:43:00 - [24] Originally by: NightmareX Wrong, it's at level 5 Now, perhaps. But not when you tested it. Raven has 75k base targetting range, with LRT 5 thats 93.75k. With LRT 1 thats 78.75k. You stated your base range as 78k.
NightmareX Caldari Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.05.27 13:50:00 - [25] Edited by: NightmareX on 27/05/2007 13:50:00 Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: NightmareX Wrong, it's at level 5 Now, perhaps. But not when you tested it. Raven has 75k base targetting range, with LRT 5 thats 93.75k. With LRT 1 thats 78.75k. You stated your base range as 78k. It was at level 5 when i tested it, it have been at level 5 for like a year or maybe more I was in my Machariel when we tested this, and it have 62km lock range as standard without the skills. Infinitus Odium - We Are The Bringers Of Hatred
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.27 14:19:00 - [26] Ah, doh, I thought for some reason you were in a raven too.
Morreia The Celestial Element	Posted - 2007.05.27 14:23:00 - [27] Originally by: Earthan Edited by: Earthan on 27/05/2007 10:47:33 Originally by: Morreia I personally dislike any modules that the pilot is powerless to do anything about if they get used on him. If you get jumped by a skilled pilot using damps short of running away if you are faster than him there is absolutly nothing you can do about it. Sorry but its untrue. Exactly against dampners, if you are faster then the dampening ship, you can approach and target him and kill. That was exactly one of my points. The only problem is when your not faster or they can damp you below their web range (its not hard to get ancruiser/BC to under 14km, even if they do have a sensor booster). If your not faster then its the only defensive EW your have to fit to counter to stand a chance of countering, with all the others they can be contered without fitting to counter (even if that counter is just luck).
Earthan Gallente The Absolutely Amazing Fire Eaters Breidablik	Posted - 2007.05.27 14:27:00 - [28] Originally by: Xtreem the thing i really dont like is just a few of these units mess with carriers and un seiged dreads way too much, even with 2 sensor boosters a damp ship can make a carrier next to usless becuase of lock times and ranges. Ok but i can see that but then the solution is to boost capital defences against ew not nerf dampeners - Killing Eve bullies all over the galaxy
darkmancer	Posted - 2007.05.27 15:21:00 - [29] I would argue that that it's the scan resolution penalty you get with sd's that make them overpowered. Even if you outpace your opponent the huge added lock time tends to mean either his gang mates have time to shoot you down before you do anything, or he has enough time to warp before you lock. I think the resolution penalty should be reduced to around 25 - 30%, enough to make 2 roughly double your lock time is more than enough. --------------------------------- There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong
Phaedruss	Posted - 2007.05.27 15:39:00 - [30] Originally by: darkmancer I would argue that that it's the scan resolution penalty you get with sd's that make them overpowered. Even if you outpace your opponent the huge added lock time tends to mean either his gang mates have time to shoot you down before you do anything, or he has enough time to warp before you lock. I think the resolution penalty should be reduced to around 25 - 30%, enough to make 2 roughly double your lock time is more than enough. Sensor boosters significantly increase the odds of first lock capability. With first lock, the scan resolution penalty is irrelevant. In terms of facing a gang, then a single ship needs to accept some kind of disadvantage. How long have dampeners been in the game? How long have the serious dampener whine threads been around? I haven't been in Eve that long and honestly dont know the answer, but I suspect the whines got louder after ECM got the nerf. If this is the case, it serves to show that nerfing is a vicious circle that needs to stop. As soon as something gets nerfed there are those that immediately latch onto the next best thing as being too powerful. It kills the game and rewards the stupid, unimaginative and lazy, leading to a devolution of the game and player base. Dampeners are only really useful when several are used on a single target. One or even two dampeners will often reduce a target's targeting range by less than the actual engagement range anyway, and the scan resolution penalties only slow down locking ability, and then only if the target doesn't get first lock. So bear in mind that dampeners are not only often completely useless unless given the right conditions, they also take up valuable mid-slots for shield tankers, other EW, cap and propulsion/cap mods. So, the other guy has sacrificed 3 or 4 mid-slots for dampeners? If people are so damned worried about it, try training long range targeting and putting a couple of sensor boosters on. So you still won't have your 90km locking range, but you'll have the first lock opportunity, negating half the advantage of damps, and will likely save you from being unable to target within scramble range. Don't want to sacrifice the mid slots? TBH the other guy deserves to win for being bold and making the sacrifice. To show that damps are overpowered to the extent that a change in the status quo is required, the numbers need to be crunched, and then considered along with necessary sacrifices/reasonable counter measures and engagement scenarios.

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