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James Duar
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.06.02 10:32:00 -
[211]
You know the more I read here the more ridiculous this nerf seems.
On the one hand, we have CPU tight blaster setups fitting EANM + DCU and barely fitting it with an implant.
On the other hand, we have seriously buffed average EM resists due to the high inherent resist of EM on armor and the prevalence of the armor tank.
Solution 1: reduce base armor EM resist, possibly bringing it inline with Kin+Therm resists. Balance against shields by doing the same with their innate Explosive resist. (this would be a major change to tanking dynamics - I don't like it).
Solution 2: Reduce the CPU cost of armor hardeners to below the existing CPU cost to EANMII's (I would suggest the current CPU of EANM's would be a good choice for the T2 armor hardeners).
I like Solution 2. Solution 2 means Megathrons with fractional CPU left after fitting can go tri-hardener to make a fit. Since most people won't buy IFFA's and implants for their Mega's due to expense, the amount of damage done with EM to these setups and many others will increase because fitting tri-hardener will give you more CPU for your tank.
But, crucially, it also means Amarr aren't nerfed out of fitting EANMII's + DCU for their tanks but are more likely to encounter down-fitted Mega's (and be able to engage effectively at range while the Mega's burn into range).
Of course, there is a solution 3 here, which is do a combination: nerf the base armor EM resist back to 50% (and do the same to shield Exp resist) and drop CPU reqs for active hardeners to make it more likely people throw those on.
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Cadien Cybernetics
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Posted - 2007.06.02 12:38:00 -
[212]
Fit something else then..
Seriously, regardless of any Amarr boost, T2 membranes need to be balanced.
In direct comparison three EANM IIs beat three single EM IIs in each of the three resists plus added resistance in the fourth type.
If you look at the numbers, the adaptive membrane gets a 33% boost from T1 to T2, while the single resist membranes only gain 17,5%. That's a bit odd and also hints as to why the former is more popular.
My suggestion would be to reduce the bonus of EANM IIs to 18% and increase CPU usage to 35tf.
If shields are overpowered then, that's a different issue.
If Amarr still need a boost then, that's also a different issue with some more and different solutions.
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- Balance is power, guard it well.. - |
n0thing
Northern Intelligence
Artificial Intelligence.
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Posted - 2007.06.02 13:17:00 -
[213]
I just tryed to re-fit Ishtar as a CPU tight ship using Adaptive Nano IIs. Only one faction item used so all CPU is used.
Tho, I cant fly it yet, but I have clear idea of lows for non-speed variation.
1x MAR II, 1x 800 Plate, 1x Adaptive Nano II, 1x TS Explosive Hardener, 1x Best named DCU.
The resistances were 70/70/80/80. Not sure on kin/thermal I was mostly looking at EM. So EM is 70%, with armor comp skills on lvl 4.
Now to compare it with:
1x MAR II, 1x 800 plate, 1x EANM II, 1x TS Explosive Hardener, 1x Best named DCU.
The resistances were 73.86% on EM.
Now, ok, even if you can still fit Ishtar even tho its CPU tight. Whats the point in EANM if it give 3.86% resistance in best case and takes CPU? IF you fit faction adaptive nano the difference is about 1-2%.
So, really, ok, even if nerf isnt going to hit cpu-tight ships....how 3% will help the issue with EM damage? 103 dps instead of 100 dps isnt much of help imho.
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murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
Vigilance Infinitas
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Posted - 2007.06.02 14:31:00 -
[214]
3% difference is big when you look at it correctly. Moving from an EANM to an ANM is a big hit to the tank of an Ishtar.
3% difference in resists when you're at 70% damage resist is 10% change in unresisted damage (3 is 10% of 30), so you're looking at a 10% damage increase to the tank with a 3% reduction in resists at that point.
Once you get your resists very high, every little point counts for more and more.
10% more damage to my tank means I just lost 10% of my hitpoints across the board (effectively). No thanks.
Because I said so...
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n0thing
Northern Intelligence
Artificial Intelligence.
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Posted - 2007.06.02 14:41:00 -
[215]
 Originally by: murder one
3% difference is big when you look at it correctly. Moving from an EANM to an ANM is a big hit to the tank of an Ishtar.
3% difference in resists when you're at 70% damage resist is 10% change in unresisted damage (3 is 10% of 30), so you're looking at a 10% damage increase to the tank with a 3% reduction in resists at that point.
Once you get your resists very high, every little point counts for more and more.
10% more damage to my tank means I just lost 10% of my hitpoints across the board (effectively). No thanks.
I havent said that I like the nerf btw, just was wondering is the resistance gap of 3% will do much to Amarr.
Tnx for explanation.
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Ventallia Renvess
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Posted - 2007.06.02 15:19:00 -
[216]
Edited by: Ventallia Renvess on 02/06/2007 15:20:39
stupid alt
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Rawr, I'm a manatee |
Copine Callmeknau
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2007.06.02 15:21:00 -
[217]
Heh, lot of people seem to have forgotten that there are other types of Energized plating apart from the adaptive variety.
Your cap usage will not increase if you're smart, and use Energized Reactive Plate, Energized Thermic Plate, and Energized Kinetic Plate.
Nerfing EM resist on EANM's is a kick to the teeth of amarr T2, unless of course you're happy to waste a low on an EM hardener II?
Yes, EANM becomes tough to fit, that's kinda the point. Adapt...
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Originally by: Uncle Chop Chop
Harden the **** up
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n0thing
Northern Intelligence
Artificial Intelligence.
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Posted - 2007.06.02 15:28:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Copine Callmeknau
Heh, lot of people seem to have forgotten that there are other types of Energized plating apart from the adaptive variety.
Your cap usage will not increase if you're smart, and use Energized Reactive Plate, Energized Thermic Plate, and Energized Kinetic Plate.
Nerfing EM resist on EANM's is a kick to the teeth of amarr T2, unless of course you're happy to waste a low on an EM hardener II?
Yes, EANM becomes tough to fit, that's kinda the point. Adapt...
Most ships dont have slots to fit 3 hardeners and surely do not have CPU for it. Only alternative is maybe rig/adaptive nano combo.
Still yelds lower results while shield remains untouched.
The BC shield recharge change isnt going to hit shield tankers as BCs somehow had BS sized tank on them.
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Shinjuro
Chaos Reborn
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Posted - 2007.06.02 16:07:00 -
[219]
I daresay this is one of the STUPIDEST nerfs ever!
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Gabriel Magnar
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Posted - 2007.06.02 19:10:00 -
[220]
How about you stop hating on armor tankers CCP?
Wasn't combat supposed to last LONGER btw? Right.
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MotherMoon
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Posted - 2007.06.02 19:24:00 -
[221]
Originally by: n0thing
Originally by: Copine Callmeknau
Heh, lot of people seem to have forgotten that there are other types of Energized plating apart from the adaptive variety.
Your cap usage will not increase if you're smart, and use Energized Reactive Plate, Energized Thermic Plate, and Energized Kinetic Plate.
Nerfing EM resist on EANM's is a kick to the teeth of amarr T2, unless of course you're happy to waste a low on an EM hardener II?
Yes, EANM becomes tough to fit, that's kinda the point. Adapt...
Most ships dont have slots to fit 3 hardeners and surely do not have CPU for it. Only alternative is maybe rig/adaptive nano combo.
Still yelds lower results while shield remains untouched.
The BC shield recharge change isnt going to hit shield tankers as BCs somehow had BS sized tank on them.
again, go passive buff a battleship
then deside if BC's are over buffed
it's not the tank it's the over powering atitude of passive tanks
but then again with these set up you have no offence speed armor tank or anything.
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Xoduse
Gallente
Beasts of Burden
YouWhat
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Posted - 2007.06.02 20:51:00 -
[222]
horrbile solution, I dont think any of my blaster setups will survive this change...
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Arnold Duncan
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Posted - 2007.06.03 00:20:00 -
[223]
Funniest thing is that everyone complain about gallentes that are already short on cpu...
Now.. there's a race that's famous for having tons of powergrid but being short on cpu for it's fitting. It is supposed to deal out massive damage and be the best armor tankers in the game.
Now i would like to know how the hell are they supposed to fit an armor tank on pretty much every ship...
And.. no they are not the gallente. Guess who is?
If this is the oomph you were planning to get, no thanks, we don't need it.
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Altai Saker
Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2007.06.03 00:39:00 -
[224]
I don't care too much about this except it nerfs every fitting I have for every amarr ship I have except the crusader. 
http://www.omniscient-order.com/
Sahwoolo Etoophie is a noob!
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Icome4u
Caldari
Dark and Light inc.
D-L
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Posted - 2007.06.03 02:30:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Arnold Duncan
Funniest thing is that everyone complain about gallentes that are already short on cpu...
No, everyone complains about CALDARI that are very short on CPU.
______
Originally by: Vyger
If I lose connection while walking around a station will my avatar run off in a random direction and go hide in a corner? 
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Auron Shadowbane
Teeth Of The Hydra
R i s e
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Posted - 2007.06.03 10:23:00 -
[226]
this nerv SUCKS.
all that has to be said...
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie |
Ildryn
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.06.03 11:28:00 -
[227]
Just toss out all the resists for armor and make everything sheild tank like a passive drake......while your at it just dont give anyone any choice of how they can play a game.....why dont you just give caldari ships a few extra mid slots so they to can pack a ab/web/scram combo and still have crazy tanks
Most people here agree with changing a laser's damage type from EM/Therm to Therm/EM.....SO CHANGE IT ALLREADY and leave the EANMIIs alone
And no it isnt possible to fit a Deimos nicely now.....it cant fit a plate and 5 neuts/nos and tackle and have any kind of decent tank without fitting mods....i have the fitting skills at 5 btw
Yeah im new.....but i feel like its Star Wars Galaxies all over again....Here is your Jedi you earned it...after 8 months of grinding the toon we get a stupid eq nerf.....and now you can just start as a Jedi....so i quit
Keep it up and you will lose many subscribers who have played much longer than me
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Trev Kachanov
STK Scientific
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.06.03 11:42:00 -
[228]
you should of just nicked off some of the EM resist on EANM if it was such a problem to amarr.
instead you've made more problems for everyone that even tries to fit the module, especially ones hard for CPU.
Don't trip |
Proxay
Gallente
Fallen Angel's
Xelas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.03 13:33:00 -
[229]
Well; I'd better start training t2 ac spec and shield tanking skills, because gallente is ****ed.
Worst change ever.
Fallen Angel's Recruitment |
Frater Perdurabo
Amarr
The Ancient Illuminated Seers of Bavaria
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Posted - 2007.06.03 15:51:00 -
[230]
If this is meant to 'boost' amarr in some way then, erm, WTB drugs ccp devs are taking :P
If the intention was to nerf armour tanking - which in the opinion of someone who can do both, and ignoring the usefulness of midslots in pvp for other stuff, are inferior to shield tanks by and large - then congratulations ccp, you've nerfed them damn good!
Goodbye decent amarr setups, goodbye blasterboat with a tank. Cos they really needed nerfing, but hey, domi is still untouched and uber as ever :)
Sig->
Good isnt it.
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zero2espect
Amarr
Exit 13
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.06.03 16:08:00 -
[231]
i am very serious about this one. if this goes through then i may just be cancelling my accounts. i am frustrated by improvements to the game that seem to focus on 2 races in particular while amarr is overlooked in every major content release done over the last 2 years.
the amarr community for YEARS has been suggesting how to fix the race and what have we got? nothing. and what are we likely to get? more of what we're seeing on sisi. while there are no useful pieces of information about any "un-nerfs" amarr can expect, these little gold nuggets that come up are a real kick in the guts for a race already on its knees. already in gangs all i get is "send zero in, at least he's good for armour tanking" or "at least we have a dictor, it's only a heretic but it'll be able to lay down a sphere - it's good for nothing else" (<- 5% bonus to rocket EM damage (are you serious? - rof would have been a better bonus))
i have been playing this game for years now as an amarr pilot. patiently watching the roundabouts of race loving applied to caldari, gallente and our minmatar. for what (when you first join the game) reads to be the most dominant and powerful race in the galaxy in all of the literature, is in fact the worst, gimped, race in existence makes me bitter.
let me break it down for you. we need to be able to hit hard and tank (supported by both CCP sponsored and unsponsored storylines)...right...? well, we cant fit guns across our high slots (like utility slot wtf?). we have far fewer mid slots across the board on all our ships. grid and cpu requirements of laz0rs are insane. while every1 can happily nano up their ships we cant (you see, speed at the cost of armour, and more to the point, amrour at the cost of speed). standard resists to EM are, lets face it, not too bad.
so what does this do. almost all of my ships are already within 3-6 cpu of being maxxed with named fittings (yes, for the most part we have to use best named to fit the CPU onboard). usually with 1 ean2 and a DC on most setups. but it's more than that. i mean is like every dev a minmatar or caldari pilot or something?
we've put up with this whole "need for speed" thing for months now - i'm sure minmatar and caldari pilots have never had it better. let me break it down for you. we cant go fast. end. when we go hunting we often find ourselves flying against caldari/minmatar fast ships. we havent got the mid slots to catch them, trap them or slow them down.....so what's on the plans, nerf the armour tankers some more? u must be joking. i bet if instead of adding cpu to EAN2's you had of placed kin or exp tech2 crystals for amarr in sisi these very same forums would be flooded with "OMG what are you doing?" "Lame Devs!" etc posts.
DO NOT TRY TO FIX AMARR BY NERFING US OFF THE BAT. the solution is simple. drop the utility slot idea. drop lamest bonus ever created "5% cap usage per level" and replace it for damage like every other race. balance the cpu and cap fitting and cap usage for lazers by a modest 3-5%. consider adding a mid slot for tech2 variants (for the loss of a hi or low). (this is stretching it-->) give us the exp/kin crystal! (make us train a new skill if u must).
DO NOT MAKE IT ANY HARDER TO ARMOUR TANK.
just by the by, for the last 3 months i've grown sick of being in a nerfed race so have been cross training. guess to what! Gallente! now i'll have 2 tech trees full of worthless SP! YAY FOR ME!
all the shield tankers who are comparing this to your mid-slot shield mods. don't. easier to fit (cpu/grid). better bonus. u have the mids to do it without losing speed and gank mods. as you're shield fails you still have the extra 2 layers to make good your escape. not to mention you get a "natural" shield regen where we have to sacrifice a mod to repair/replace any damage received.
u want a good idea? increase MWD cap/cpu/capusage by 10/10/10 for each tier of mod (1mn, 10mn, 100mn) and watch the reaction
*rant off
sometimes less is more...zero
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THRASHER23
Gallente
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.03 17:40:00 -
[232]
Edited by: THRASHER23 on 03/06/2007 17:41:30
oK I'm convinced now ccp are total jar-heads and have lost their ******* minds. Why are you nerfing EANs? If you nerf them pls have some type of solution in hand to address the problems of cpu w/ most gallente ships. Don't just do something thats gonna fix one races problems and totally **** another. Stop being 12yr olds ccp and think it through.
For Death and Glory!!! |
KD.Fluffy
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.06.03 18:42:00 -
[233]
Hopefully this nerf makes armor tanking comparable to shield tanking in pvp. Just a hope, but I personally feel the nerf was a long time coming. This might also make the raven useful if you are forced to fit specific hardners and have holes in your resists. I am really hoping this gives us caldari cats a chance to compete in the insane resist armor tank world.
Behold my evidince of BOB favoritism.
Originally by: Dianabolic
We have a "special" line (if you want to call msn that) to our FRIENDS.
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Uchuu
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Posted - 2007.06.03 19:24:00 -
[234]
Come on people, learn to adapt.
When looking at this nerf, it seems CCP doesn't want ships to be super tanker/ganker. So now you need to decide whether to gank, or to tank, like amarr. Welcome to our world
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IHurricane
Sniggerdly
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Posted - 2007.06.03 19:37:00 -
[235]
Originally by: Uchuu
Come on people, learn to adapt.
When looking at this nerf, it seems CCP doesn't want ships to be super tanker/ganker. So now you need to decide whether to gank, or to tank, like amarr. Welcome to our world
Welcome to our world, where we can't do neither!
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There was never a genius, without a tincture of madness - Aristotle |
THRASHER23
Gallente
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.03 20:11:00 -
[236]
Originally by: Uchuu
Come on people, learn to adapt.
When looking at this nerf, it seems CCP doesn't want ships to be super tanker/ganker. So now you need to decide whether to gank, or to tank, like amarr. Welcome to our world
erm are you serious? It has nothing to do with adaptation. At best this game has become, blob vs blob and capital fleet vs capital fleet. When you travel in a small gang of lets say 10 you will get the resonse of 30. This nerf is unnessary, it totally messes up setups for Gallente and Amarr bs and imo is a grand show if irresponsibility on ccps side. Nothing indicates that EANM need to be nerfed. TBFH it dosen't matter if your gank or tank setup when you get blobed.
For Death and Glory!!! |
n0thing
omen.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.06.03 22:57:00 -
[237]
Originally by: KD.Fluffy
Hopefully this nerf makes armor tanking comparable to shield tanking in pvp. Just a hope, but I personally feel the nerf was a long time coming. This might also make the raven useful if you are forced to fit specific hardners and have holes in your resists. I am really hoping this gives us caldari cats a chance to compete in the insane resist armor tank world.
Dont forget that only downside of shield tanking in pvp is rather not having tackling slots. Otherwise a combo of EM/Invulnerability with full rack of dmg mods + 3x CCC can make you both in that case tank and gank.
Forced to fit specific hardeners? Id be glad to fit em if I would have any CPU for it at all? Or maybe to keep that paper-thin tank still beng able to deal dmg its meant to deal with damage mods?
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Sadist
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.06.03 23:38:00 -
[238]
Edited by: Sadist on 03/06/2007 23:49:45
So, there goes another brilliant balancing move by CCP. I guess their balancing department is now run by a hundred monkeys, based on the assumption that if enough keys are hit on the keyboard, monkeys will type War and Peace or balance the game in the right way.
Armor tanking has been inferior for AGES, and what does CCP do?
Right, nerf it even more.
Well, actually let me expand on this a little bit:
in Kali, aka Revelations, we saw the biggest shield tanking boost ever in the form of:
1. Cycle speed rigs for shield boosters - non-stacked
2. Booster pills - non-stacked with anything.
This may not seem like much, but consider this: these items do not stack with either
1. Crystal set
2. Ship bonus
3. Shield amplifier.
Well so what, you may say, shield tanking is less cap efficient, right? Wrong.
If you devote yourself to tanking with a setup that does just that, you are able to boost something stupid, in excess of 1500 shield with a t1 shield booster every 3 seconds or so. While it does eat a lot of your cap, the sheer amount of shield boosted every second makes up for any resistance advantages and/or insane cap use.
Dont forget, most armor tanking ships have to fire guns that use cap, over caldari and minmatar ships (mostly shield tankers) that use no cap at all.
Does it maybe seem a LITTLE bit unfair to you that 2 races' ships get a massive tanking advantage while having entirely cap free weapon systems (i.e. all cap devoted for tank).
So what's the right course of action? 'Boosting amarr' in the form of nerfing a module that's used exclusively by armor tankers in an effort to prevent EANM whoring, which supposedly hurts amarr because of their EM damage.
тттттттттттт
VIP member of the [23]
Quote:
- Numbers alone do not win a battle
- No, but I bet they help.
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Letheeth Kayl
Amarr
Chosen Path
FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.04 00:07:00 -
[239]
I was angry about this idea of nerfing armor tanking.
I have chosen my words as carefully and constructively as possible, and they still stink like a minmatar in heat.
I'll just say that I like to fly paper thin ships that won't hold an ounce of water, and can't stand up against an infant light push. Further, I enjoy using weapons that give my opponent a warm fragrant breeze, a nice tan, and a decent boost of energy, instead of killing him like they're supposed to. I've always prefered a challenge, and that's why I fly amarr. The harder and more impossible it gets for me to win, the better!* If I'd wanted life to be easy, I'd have spec'd caldari or minmatar.
*PSYCHE!!!! Nerf everybody if you're going to nerf me. Triple the shield recharge time, halve the explosive sheild resists, quarter the shield hp of all ships!!!! Burn the bastards to the stake. Stop coddling those capless weapon *****s NOW!
Put down the mirror and return to live
With pain With sin With despair
Live with penance in God's glory
Lesson of Tobias and the Mirror
Scriptures Verses26-29 |
Mezikk
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Posted - 2007.06.04 00:27:00 -
[240]
/signed
Bad idea.
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