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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
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Posted - 2007.06.06 10:22:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 06/06/2007 10:21:41
 Originally by: rules
Last night 4-5 Veto pilots went out hunting. Small gang of 4-5 including an inty, EWAR ship, T2 fitted cruiser, assault frig and covops support. Nothing overwhelming.
While I do apreciate what you write here, and you guy really are not the real problem but the ones more or less persecuting mission runners, setting up shop in a mission system, getting all the good BMs and then having a very easy time probing until noone runs missions there anymore, this does point out one problem.
That gang above IS overwhelming against any mission BS, mainly because of the EWAR. And that is what irks many mission runners, there really is almost zero risk for the pirate gang that enters a mission. (Mission runners usually have better things to do than to set up boring gatecamp-esque traps in missions...)
This is also another imbalance between pirate and anti-pirate mission runners. When you are busy trying to catch us, we are doing our usual ingame activity and are open to your attacks. When we are trying to catch you, you cycle safespots and/or sit in station doing out of game stuff (or playing on another account), and are impervious to our attacks.
Thank you SkyFlyer!
There is no 'n' in tur |
RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Veto. Academy
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.06.06 11:12:00 -
[32]
Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 06/06/2007 11:12:34
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 06/06/2007 10:21:41
Originally by: rules
Last night 4-5 Veto pilots went out hunting. Small gang of 4-5 including an inty, EWAR ship, T2 fitted cruiser, assault frig and covops support. Nothing overwhelming.
While I do apreciate what you write here, and you guy really are not the real problem but the ones more or less persecuting mission runners, setting up shop in a mission system, getting all the good BMs and then having a very easy time probing until noone runs missions there anymore, this does point out one problem.
That gang above IS overwhelming against any mission BS, mainly because of the EWAR. And that is what irks many mission runners, there really is almost zero risk for the pirate gang that enters a mission. (Mission runners usually have better things to do than to set up boring gatecamp-esque traps in missions...)
This is also another imbalance between pirate and anti-pirate mission runners. When you are busy trying to catch us, we are doing our usual ingame activity and are open to your attacks. When we are trying to catch you, you cycle safespots and/or sit in station doing out of game stuff (or playing on another account), and are impervious to our attacks.
Le sigh....sort of.
I'm beginning to get the picture here. As in a certain popular losec mission running system subject to frequent outbreaks of smartbombing?  . As I mentioned earlier-not our style....and you have a far greater chance of losing your pimped CNR to a gatecamp then you ever will running missions. Of course if somone is making a full time living busting safe spots my suggestion is as you say...set a trap...Darwins Blade  .
Now to the highlighted bits. There is ALWAYS risk for any pirate gang. Don't forget we actually have to travel to whatever system you in subject to attack at any time along the way. We are-after all-hoping to make a nice profit and getting killed by drawing aggro from your level 4 mission is not profit-enhancing. Neither is getting popped by the "client". So yes-using EWAR lets us punch above our wieght when needed...and gives that cushion allowing us to discuss terms before your tank breaks to the rats!
As to your other point..jumping safes is simple smart gameplay especially when we are forced to sit in a system waiting out an aggro timer subject to probing ourselves.
And I know me and the folks I fly with are full time pirates. If I am logged in...I'm yarring  with the rare alt shopping trip as needed.
And-just out of curiosity regarding that statement-how many of you are 0.0 alliance members who not only get to rat away in your space but CJ back to empire for a bit of mission running when things are quiet (or POS warfare is ongoing? You folks don't get to have cake AND cookies..get over it  .
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way"
General George Patton USA
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
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Posted - 2007.06.06 13:42:00 -
[33]
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
Now to the highlighted bits. There is ALWAYS risk for any pirate gang. Don't forget we actually have to travel to whatever system you in subject to attack at any time along the way. We are-after all-hoping to make a nice profit and getting killed by drawing aggro from your level 4 mission is not profit-enhancing. Neither is getting popped by the "client". So yes-using EWAR lets us punch above our wieght when needed...and gives that cushion allowing us to discuss terms before your tank breaks to the rats!
Well yes, you are at risk from outside sources when traveling while hunting (even though that is a small risk, given how easy it is to avoid lowsec gatecamps if you know what you are doing). But that does not really matter to the mission runner. He only sees you being in his system, and them ganking him with no risk to yourselves whatsoever. And that comes across as wrong.
Quote:
As to your other point..jumping safes is simple smart gameplay especially when we are forced to sit in a system waiting out an aggro timer subject to probing ourselves.
And I know me and the folks I fly with are full time pirates. If I am logged in...I'm yarring with the rare alt shopping trip as needed.
And-just out of curiosity regarding that statement-how many of you are 0.0 alliance members who not only get to rat away in your space but CJ back to empire for a bit of mission running when things are quiet (or POS warfare is ongoing? You folks don't get to have cake AND cookies..get over it .
Of course jumping saves is smart, and I don't blame you for it. It still makes you invulnerable if you do it correctly, which makes the whole business of fighting back a bit tedious if not pointless.
And I am a fulltime mission runner with a PvP alt, and no good 0.0 access. The alt is still in the lowsec where I used to run missions, the main is back in highsec now as running missions while constantly looking over my shoulder was just too damn annoying to justify the slight increase in rewards (I run missions in borderline-tanking efficient gank setups, not in slow and terminally boring permatanking cookie-cutter setups, so the mission itself does keep me very occupied). I would love to go back to lowsec full time, but for that to happen we need better tools to fight against pirates. My personal favorite would be warpdrive cooldown, so that you are actually at risk of being probed while cycling saves. (Obviously this would have to go hand in hand with a steep increase of the 'no docking/jumping after aggro' timer)
Thank you SkyFlyer!
There is no 'n' in tur |
La Tortura
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.06.06 14:05:00 -
[34]
Edited by: La Tortura on 06/06/2007 14:12:52
Edited by: La Tortura on 06/06/2007 14:05:09
Having probed and killed a few lowsec mission runners myself in last week, I would say that it is too easy to probe a mission runner. Especially if the runner has low skills and has to warpout a few times.
It seems like the "protection against too easy scanning" of deadspace doesn't work at the moment when ship warps out of a mission, so decently skilled (and I mean not player skills, as it used to be before Kali, but just ingame skills) covop with ~30 or less seconds scan time gets quite fair chance to get a lock on the mission runner and land at the first gate.
Probing should be reverted to it's pre-Kali state, but with sperical area of influence for probes. The player skills should play a role, not just pure luck and law of large numbers.
--
ignorance is bliss |
Pytria Le'Danness
Placid Reborn
The Cyrene Initiative
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Posted - 2007.06.08 13:03:00 -
[35]
Originally by: La Tortura
The player skills should play a role, not just pure luck and law of large numbers.
Sorry, this is EVE we're playing. Character skill points and blob numbers are the only things that count
Corporation RP channel: "PlacidReborn" |
Hasak Rain
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.06.12 14:21:00 -
[36]
I didn't read this whole thread but I will say that it is going to take a lot more than what is currently in the game in the form of both reward and game mechanics before i would start soloing missions in low sec.
I am not giving some garbage players free runs at my ships when I am forced into using PvE setups to do missions.
Hell, I lose enough BSs as it is in the missions.
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Galk
Gallente
Autumn Tactics
All the things she said
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Posted - 2007.06.12 20:24:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
When you are busy trying to catch us, we are doing our usual ingame activity and are open to your attacks. When we are trying to catch you, you cycle safespots and/or sit in station doing out of game stuff (or playing on another account), and are impervious to our attacks.
The above is exactly how it pans out nine times out of ten.
Why 'anything' ccp care to add to the game to improve it for anti pk's is doomed to complete failer.
The only thing that would work is not allowing negative sec status pk's the right to dock...
I dunno, force them to have a pos in the system.. or some sort of outlaws outpost... a'la hideout....
Ofc they would have to defend both... but hey ccp is forcing mission runners into group defence for the right to run missions...... why shouldn't the other half have to work to defend something too, instead of just having the nice side of the deal.....
Makes perfect sence to me
______
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CCP Zrakor
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Posted - 2007.06.12 21:19:00 -
[38]
Edited by: CCP Zrakor on 12/06/2007 21:19:14
I don't remember ever promising tools against being probed, but I do remember talking about the implementation of tools to help people police a low sec system, such as additional bounty hunter tools. I can't give any promises on that front as I'm not even the designer in charge of implementing such tools, but I have heard talk inside Game Design for a long time about improving 'anti-pirate' viability, basically making it easier to protect PVEers, traders and the like in low sec. Which is what low sec was always meant to be, it was meant to be policed by the players while High Sec is policed by CONCORD NPC ships. And to an extent that is what it is today, but personally I would like to see an improvement there, it should at least be easier for the player police force to find the pirates and fight them, currently that is a bit of a hassle in my oppinion, which reduces the amount of people who are willing to take part in that profession.
There are design suggestions in place for this inhouse, the question is just when they will be implemented. I am not aware of any specific tools or improvements being implemented in this patch to boost 'anti-pirates' in low sec, but I will raise the issue again within Game Design.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.06.12 22:02:00 -
[39]
Thanks, Zrakor.
Personally I think that a more viable anti-pirate profession is the largest single thing that could be done to improve the fun, profitability, and use of LoSec...for lots of people and playstyles, including pirates.
Done correctly, it would be a -huge- boost to the game's quality, imo.
* * *
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Veto. Academy
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.06.12 23:40:00 -
[40]
Originally by: CCP Zrakor
Edited by: CCP Zrakor on 12/06/2007 21:19:14
I don't remember ever promising tools against being probed, but I do remember talking about the implementation of tools to help people police a low sec system, such as additional bounty hunter tools. I can't give any promises on that front as I'm not even the designer in charge of implementing such tools, but I have heard talk inside Game Design for a long time about improving 'anti-pirate' viability, basically making it easier to protect PVEers, traders and the like in low sec. Which is what low sec was always meant to be, it was meant to be policed by the players while High Sec is policed by CONCORD NPC ships. And to an extent that is what it is today, but personally I would like to see an improvement there, it should at least be easier for the player police force to find the pirates and fight them, currently that is a bit of a hassle in my oppinion, which reduces the amount of people who are willing to take part in that profession.
There are design suggestions in place for this inhouse, the question is just when they will be implemented. I am not aware of any specific tools or improvements being implemented in this patch to boost 'anti-pirates' in low sec, but I will raise the issue again within Game Design.
Cheers for the clarification. Care to elaborate on the bold bit? Forewarned is forearmed .
And thank you for refraining from providing further cake and cookies to 0.0 alliance alts .
Keep up the good work.
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way"
General George Patton USA
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Veto. Academy
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.06.12 23:46:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Hasak Rain
I didn't read this whole thread......
I am not giving some garbage players free runs at my ships when I am forced into using PvE setups to do missions.
Hell, I lose enough BSs as it is in the missions.
Maybe you should have read the whole thread. Care to define "garbage players"? Oh...perhaps you meant "garbage BS pilots"  .
Thank you for contributing zero to a pretty reasonable discussion 
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way"
General George Patton USA
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Veto. Academy
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.06.13 00:02:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Galk
Summary-I want to play a game where risk-v-reward is meaningless.
What exactly is a PK? Are we playing the same game?
And your ideas sound great to me. Tell you what...maybe if CCP implements your awesome plan at the same time they will remove static bubbles and 'dictors from the game too. That way anyone who wants to can go trucking around alliance-held space at will without worrying about getting bagged by the 50-man 0.0-Empire chokepoint blobs...yeah baby....hows that sound? And give sec hits for kills in 0.0.
Even better....CCP can give you your very own special private candyland unicorn server too---filled with lollipops and rainbows and all the joys of virtual wealth creation that YOU CAN NEVER EVER LOSE.
Bleah
Play the game as it stands.
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way"
General George Patton USA
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El'essar Viocragh
Minmatar
FSK23
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Posted - 2007.06.13 01:02:00 -
[43]
Having lost the odd ship mission running in lowsec, i'd like a few changes too:
1) Some mechanic to fail the (normal, not storyline) mission without faction standing loss if you got ganked by a player. That takes a month to recover and -0.1 sec status as penalty is simple one big joke. Agent standing, yes. Corp standing, yes. Faction standing, no.
2) Make the can with the mission objective accessible by the mission runner only. There are fairy tales of pirates that contract it to you for a ransom. Ending up in an item collector container is a more realistic vision.
3) You enter my deadspace, I want to shoot first. Friend or foe, I do not care. It's my mission I try to defend, I want that first volley before I get ewar'ed into oblivion.
--
[17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.06.13 01:32:00 -
[44]
Originally by: El'essar Viocragh
Having lost the odd ship mission running in lowsec, i'd like a few changes too:
1) Some mechanic to fail the (normal, not storyline) mission without faction standing loss if you got ganked by a player. That takes a month to recover and -0.1 sec status as penalty is simple one big joke. Agent standing, yes. Corp standing, yes. Faction standing, no.
Yeah. The idea I like is just to significantly reduce all the failure standings penalties in <.5. Additionally, it would be cool to extend the time bonus period in <.5. (Extending the completion time would be nice, but I don't much like it without making missions more difficult to farm at the same time.)
Quote:
2) Make the can with the mission objective accessible by the mission runner only. There are fairy tales of pirates that contract it to you for a ransom. Ending up in an item collector container is a more realistic vision.
I'm not so fond of this idea, in LoSec anyway. What I would love to see in LoSec though are mission objectives being treated as the "property" of the mission runner and his gang. So somebody can steal or destroy it, but you at least get shooting rights. Additionally, it would be cool if the destruction of a mission completion item resulted in a standings loss with the agent's corp/faction
Quote:
3) You enter my deadspace, I want to shoot first. Friend or foe, I do not care. It's my mission I try to defend, I want that first volley before I get ewar'ed into oblivion.
Not really necessary, in my opinion. You can shoot first already if you want (and if you can manage it). It just comes at the expense of that small security loss that you mentioned earlier. It makes sense to me as it is.
* * *
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Aeryn Davenport
Claflin Industries
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Posted - 2007.06.13 02:46:00 -
[45]
I love how a dev saying he'd like certain tools and is looking into it turns into a promise to deliver them with an implied timetable of "soon."
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Cyan Nuevo
The Blackguard Wolves
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Posted - 2007.06.13 04:03:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Cyan Nuevo on 13/06/2007 04:02:38
I would just like to mention that I am a full-time mission-runner and not very experienced in PvP. However, the other day, I killed a mission-running Maelstrom in an Apocalypse solo. I think the imbalance there (is that the first time a lesser Amarr ship has killed a greater Minmatar ship?  ) just shows how easy it is to gank mission-runners.
Oh, and the 1-2% chances are BS. With some basic use of the scanner and a cov-ops ship, the guy who probed for me found him in under a minute.
---
Your signature was inappropriate, email [email protected] to find out why (don't forget to include a link to it) -Sahwoolo |
Tidas Andrommeda
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Posted - 2007.06.13 04:41:00 -
[47]
Cyan, I seem to remember taking out your Harbinger with my Ferox :P.
But really the one and only tool that is ABSOLUTELY needed is a way to show only probes on a scanner. If you don't know, when you don't use overview settings (aka when finding probes) this shows everything, including wrecks. In a big missioning system this can mean sifting through hundreds of entries looking for a single probe. Add this to trying to run a L4 and it becomes VERY tedious, plus it takes a while sometimes to load the scanner results when it is full of wrecks.
After I see probes I usually either dock or get a few friends to be on the ready just in case.
Summary: Make the scanner more user friendly as far as finding probes is concerned
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Mai'Shin
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Posted - 2007.06.13 05:24:00 -
[48]
I would really enjoy a better policed lowsec. More saftey for when I run missions, and more people to blow up when I don't.
I like the idea that all those aspiring bounty hunters and anti-pies will have a decent chance to play their way.
I think nearly all of us can agree it's a good thing?
Also, I don't run missions in lowsec anymore. I prefer to make ISK so I can use that for pvp.
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Fenren
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Posted - 2007.06.13 07:49:00 -
[49]
there would be quite nice with an ability to send destress calls. and not only in the local.
something like a button, or perhaps a module, that generates a warpable icon on the overview, that everyone sees and can jump to.
then if you know there are some people there who protect others, they have the possibility of finding you quick enough, and other pirates might jump you too
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Deadlines are when TomB says "get this done by such-and-such a date or I'll set you on fire".
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Vasiliyan
The Flying Swan
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Posted - 2007.06.13 08:25:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Fenren
there would be quite nice with an ability to send destress calls. and not only in the local.
something like a button, or perhaps a module, that generates a warpable icon on the overview, that everyone sees and can jump to.
then if you know there are some people there who protect others, they have the possibility of finding you quick enough, and other pirates might jump you too
You can do that if you're in a gang. Also, being in fleet with other mission runners gives you the benefits of the fleet skills.
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Fenren
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Posted - 2007.06.13 10:25:00 -
[51]
yes, but it is quite risky to gang up with a few people who claims to be anti-pirates... if you know you are going to die, it might be worth the risk, dont you think?
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Deadlines are when TomB says "get this done by such-and-such a date or I'll set you on fire".
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Shameless Avenger
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Posted - 2007.06.13 10:42:00 -
[52]
LOL @ people to talk about running hundreds of missions like if every lvl 4 mission only takes 5 mins to complete. Lvl 1 != Lvl 4.
'don't fly what you can't afford to lose'?
It's not about that, is just simple math. Would you be a pizza delivery guy if your car got stolen/destroyed every week?
I say low sec missions are just a bait to provide 'content' to low sec piwates. Just like the jaspet ore. |
Shameless Avenger
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Posted - 2007.06.13 10:58:00 -
[53]
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
What exactly is a PK? Are we playing the same game?
A PK is a pvpier. The term apears multiple times on The Noob Comic. Several examples explain why players don't go npcing (aka ratting) on areas full of PKs (aka pvpiers). Here is an example of a PK trying to gank somebody. |
RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Veto. Academy
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.06.13 17:12:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
What exactly is a PK? Are we playing the same game?
A PK is a pvpier. The term apears multiple times on The Noob Comic. Several examples explain why players don't go npcing (aka ratting) on areas full of PKs (aka pvpiers). Here is an example of a PK trying to gank somebody.
Ummm...thanks. Feel free to stay in high sec...low sec is for those who appreciate the phrase "only the good die young" .
Oh by the way....I lump it all under combat operations personally. These twee little terms like "PvP" and "PK" just sound....bent .
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way"
General George Patton USA
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The Djego
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Posted - 2007.06.13 19:25:00 -
[55]
Edited by: The Djego on 13/06/2007 19:28:35
Hm fist of all People start to accept this is Low Sec you are in. If you canŠt handle the Scanner and check the People that entering and leaving local you will loose ships.
If the local jumps up and the people staying longer than 120 Seconds move to a Station and dock or log for a few minutes on a Save Spot.
Start to talk to the people that live in Low Sec, to get a clue what kind of people are in the area. Then you can talk to the corps for Standings and get into her comunity. Of course ther will be a chance of a random roaming gang, but you will see them comming.
Last of all never use someting like Faction fitted Battleships in Low Sec for your Missions, this is supid and if you can afford one of these you should have allready the Skills to manage it wihout one. A T2 Fitted Raven will do fine and will cut your loose to 50 - 70 Mill.
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Toria Nynys
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.06.13 23:01:00 -
[56]
Originally by: The Djego
A T2 Fitted Raven will do fine and will cut your loose to 50 - 70 Mill.
Or, we could completely SKIP lowsec and go to 0.0. Empire to 0.0, just like what's happening now. And all the work CCP is doing to provide new content in lowsec goes to waste.
The discussion of why lowsec is a stinking pit unsuitable for anyone except prats and prat wannabees has been rehashed a billion times. Without *new* and *effective* tools to allow players to effectively secure systems those of us who can do a risk/reward assessment aren't going.
BTW, 3 rigs alone are coming close to your 50-70M loss. Faction ship or not, unless missions are paying 50M/hr or more lowsec just isn't worth the hassle. If high sec income is nerfed some more people will just go to 0.0 earlier.
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The Djego
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Posted - 2007.06.14 00:44:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Toria Nynys
BTW, 3 rigs alone are coming close to your 50-70M loss.
The Idea is not to pimp your ship out. If you fly into Low Sec you will loose your Ship sooner or later, no matter how good you are skilled and how expensive and powerfull your setup is. A expensive setup will save you sometimes but the loose will be even harder when you get ganked. If you think you need 3 Rigs fit and loose them. If not you save alot of money when it pops.
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Herring
Pimpology
Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2007.06.14 04:09:00 -
[58]
Quick question - is it really that easy to scan out mission runners? Because from my experience in running them in 0.0, either we have really lazy pirates up there, or they can never find me...and they are trying to kill me, I can tell from all the flashing red from when I enter/exit station.
When I myself search for wrecks/ships/drones using exploration probes, it takes for freaking ever and all I ever find is the drones. Are the pvp probes really that superior?
I'd take answers from either side really or both.
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Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.06.14 06:25:00 -
[59]
Originally by: The Djego
Originally by: Toria Nynys
BTW, 3 rigs alone are coming close to your 50-70M loss.
The Idea is not to pimp your ship out. If you fly into Low Sec you will loose your Ship sooner or later, no matter how good you are skilled and how expensive and powerfull your setup is. A expensive setup will save you sometimes but the loose will be even harder when you get ganked. If you think you need 3 Rigs fit and loose them. If not you save alot of money when it pops.
If you do not pimp your ship out you will earn less isk per hour than in high sec. So .. whats the point of going to low sec then if you can earn more in high sec with less risk. Only reason to go to low sec then is if you are not looking for isk but for something else. People do live in there.
In a nutshell to make it clear I'll throw in somewhat arbitary example. Numbers are a bit approximate but their relation with each other (low end high sec vs low sec) holds true in my experience.
You can do worlds collide in 45 minutes in high sec with 'pimped ship'. Earning approx 8000 LP + 30 mil in bounties + 3 mil mission reward. You can do worlds collide in 1 hour in low sec in 'not pimped, but reasonably fitted' ship earing 12 000 LP + 30 mil in bounties + 4 mil mission reward. So - high sec ~ 55 mil / hour, low sec ~ 46 mil / hour. Granted worlds collide is the most profitable mission in my experience, but that relation holds true for less attractive missions also. It is also possible to scan you out in 45 minutes quite nice even if you do not use drones. Take into account that failing missions gives you not only agent and corp standings hit but also faction hit (whitch can take as mutch as approx 100 regular missions to recover) and low sec gets even less attractive.
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Veto. Academy
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.06.14 09:23:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Toria Nynys
The discussion of why lowsec is a stinking pit unsuitable for anyone except prats and prat wannabees has been rehashed a billion times.
Again with the insults. Do I call you a mission-running alliance isk prostitute? Nope. I only think of you as prey . And losec exists not only as a buffer between 0.0 and "safeish" Empire highsec...it provides an option for those players who are not remotely interested in alliance shennanigans (as in endless camping of 0.0 chokepoints excluding other non-alliance players from entering).
It would be enlightening to discover whose alt you actually are . In the meantime perhaps attempt to discuss things more rationally without spouting drivel.
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way"
General George Patton USA
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