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SasRipper DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2007.06.05 00:17:00 - [1] http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=531653 Originally by: Kaemonn Please dont rant. If you want to make a new thread, please do, but do so in a calm and constructive manner. Very well Dear Tuxford I canÆt help but notice that you have been spending a awful lot of time on heat. Which me a lot of my colleges donÆt recall asking for this ôfutureö myself and a number of others believe that your time would be much better spent fixing certain issues we have been having such as nosferatu. /me angry outburst off Nos has a tendency to be victorious in most 1v1s Nos also has a major advantage in small engagements What is the point of using capacitor heavy modules such as lasers or hybrids when a less skilled pilot can fight on the same level in a much smaller period of time. Nosferatu is not affected by anything such as tracking or signature radius there is no other module like it, A large percentage of people have been waiting for a change to it since cold warÆs release when it began to show its strength it has taken many forums in the past 2 years but with every change of late prolonging the duration of combat it has become even stronger. After 2 years there has been many suggested fixes which I would ask the community to highlight in this tread enough time has passed it needs to be changed. Now if you dont mind am off to look after some abandoned kittens GOSH DARN THAT NOS! snip Sas has spoken this tread shall be locked.
NoNah Marzipan Monkeys	Posted - 2007.06.05 00:32:00 - [2] Originally by: SasRipper Nosferatu is not affected by anything such as tracking or signature radius there is no other module like it, A large percentage of people have been waiting for a change to it since cold warÆs release when it began to show its strength it has taken many forums in the past 2 years but with every change of late prolonging the duration of combat it has become even stronger. There are other modules like it, heck, most EW is like NOS. True, some of them, damps for example have falloff, but - their range is vastly longer. Having that said, nos is not allright. Yes, it is good tool in 1on1's, but surely not a critical one - like the scram. If it was, the blasterthron for example would be pointless, right? A nosdomi would win over it every time? All kinds of EW is very annoying, but they deal no damage themselves. Nos on the other hand deals damage by removing opponent tank, and tanks, by giving you more cap, and disables the opponent. This is unique for the NOS. And its highslot. This is what makes Nos just a bit to much. However, theres one faction specializing in nos, above the rest, Amarr. Have you ever tried flying amarr in small gangs or one on one encounters? Heat is partly intended as a boost for Amarr - greatly asked for.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.06.05 00:33:00 - [3] Going emo on the forums? Listen to the blogtape. You can hear CCP talking about possible changes to nos, like not sucking away cap when your cap is allready higher as that off your oponent. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
SasRipper DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2007.06.05 00:34:00 - [4] Originally by: NoNah Originally by: SasRipper Heat is partly intended as a boost for Amarr - greatly asked for. you havent been on test have you? snip Sas has spoken this tread shall be locked.
SasRipper DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2007.06.05 00:35:00 - [5] yes i have heard the blog but even still i dont see why we are being forced to wait even longer snip Sas has spoken this tread shall be locked.
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2007.06.05 00:45:00 - [6] I really hate noob style caps lock posts but I think I need to say it to get through to you. EVE IS NOT BALANCED BASED ON 1 VS 1 COMBAT. Also, as I have said before, if you use one of your slots to fit a cap injector you can counter 4 heavy nos with 400 charges and more or less a full rack of them with 800 charges. (Though no ship can have any meaningful damage/tank combo with a full rack of nos) CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too. Originally by: CCP Tuxford I prefer dew over pepsi. I prefer beer over most things. Damn now I want beer.
NoNah Marzipan Monkeys	Posted - 2007.06.05 01:25:00 - [7] Oh but I have been on test, and have you noticed the fact that modules does not break due to heat either? Heat issnt final, thats why its on sisi and not tranq. Question is, have YOU been on tranq?
Dr Therikal Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2007.06.05 01:43:00 - [8] Originally by: Vicious Phoenix (Though no ship can have any meaningful damage/tank combo with a full rack of nos) lol, learn EVE, please, then come back. --------------------------------- But courage which goes against military expediency is stupidity, or, if it is insisted upon by a commander, irresponsibility. -Erwin Rommel
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2007.06.05 01:45:00 - [9] Originally by: Dr Therikal Originally by: Vicious Phoenix (Though no ship can have any meaningful damage/tank combo with a full rack of nos) lol, learn EVE, please, then come back. Name one. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too. Originally by: CCP Tuxford I prefer dew over pepsi. I prefer beer over most things. Damn now I want beer.
tarin adur Gallente Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2007.06.05 02:18:00 - [10] Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Originally by: Dr Therikal Originally by: Vicious Phoenix (Though no ship can have any meaningful damage/tank combo with a full rack of nos) lol, learn EVE, please, then come back. Name one. Dominix can get like 450 dps running T2 ogres,I'd say that's Very good for a ship not fielding guns.

Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2007.06.05 02:25:00 - [11] Originally by: tarin adur Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Originally by: Dr Therikal Originally by: Vicious Phoenix (Though no ship can have any meaningful damage/tank combo with a full rack of nos) lol, learn EVE, please, then come back. Name one. Dominix can get like 450 dps running T2 ogres,I'd say that's Very good for a ship not fielding guns. But it can't fit a full rack of nos and a tank at the same time, which is what I said. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too. Originally by: CCP Tuxford I prefer dew over pepsi. I prefer beer over most things. Damn now I want beer.
45thtiger011	Posted - 2007.06.05 03:12:00 - [12] Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Originally by: tarin adur Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Originally by: Dr Therikal Originally by: Vicious Phoenix (Though no ship can have any meaningful damage/tank combo with a full rack of nos) lol, learn EVE, please, then come back. Name one. Dominix can get like 450 dps running T2 ogres,I'd say that's Very good for a ship not fielding guns. But it can't fit a full rack of nos and a tank at the same time, which is what I said. it can if you shield tank with shield power relays & rcu on the lows
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.06.05 03:29:00 - [13] Originally by: Vicious Phoenix But it can't fit a full rack of nos and a tank at the same time, which is what I said. You never specified what size. The dominix can run 2x heavy nos and 4x medium nos without too much trouble. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2007.06.05 03:33:00 - [14] Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Vicious Phoenix But it can't fit a full rack of nos and a tank at the same time, which is what I said. You never specified what size. The dominix can run 2x heavy nos and 4x medium nos without too much trouble. Correct, I didn't specify size. But if you run it like that then a heavy cap booster can easily deal with it and it's a moot point. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too. Originally by: CCP Tuxford I prefer dew over pepsi. I prefer beer over most things. Damn now I want beer.
lord shadowhawk N.A.S.A. Skunk-Works	Posted - 2007.06.05 04:28:00 - [15] Edited by: lord shadowhawk on 05/06/2007 04:30:30 i wish people would get a clue about fitting... you can runn a full active shield tank on a nos domi and fit a full rack of 6 heavy noss's if you fill the lows with pdu's. you dont need maxed fitting skills to make it work either. im a noss user and have been on both sides of it. the sore point with nos is large boats can disable small boats in seconds... in real combat large ships need defence against smaller ones if they want to survive... (hence anti missile phlanax guns on carriers) the real problem seems to come from a single small ship (curse) being able to wipe out a multiple battleships in verry short order @ extreem range due to the ship bonuses that make an admittedly overpowered module even worse to the point of insanity. even with a heavy injector those little boats can ass ***your cap faster than you can go "what the....." leaveing the boats defencive systems totally offline (unless your useing a soon to be nerfed "passive tank from hell" but than you have no modules to try and counter the attacking boat anyways other than wepons.) allowing afore mentioned cruiser to release a swarm of t2 drones and well if your scrambled not a damn thing you can do about it... oh and dont forget your being tracking disrupted to a point where you cant even fire back with this going on.... standard nos modules you have some chance of avoiding by keeping range on your opponent or countering with heavy injectors as has been stated previously. 200% bonus to nos range and 100% boost to vamp effectiveness for a skilled pilot = your screwed tracking disruptors used in combination make it damn near impossible to keep out of range if your wanting to try and do something to the other guy before your tankless ship gets poped out from under you (if your not scrambled than yes you try to limp warp off before the cap drops below the point of allowing the warp drive to kick in) anyways just my 5c worth on the nos issue. summary nos is overpowered. specialist nos boats are insanly overpowered. what i propose is rather than nefing nos and the boats that use it is give all ships a 20% emergency cap safe guard when being attacked by nos (@ 20% the cap is below peak recharge rate so wont be able to maintain some tanks that push the limits of cap in the first place)so the nos can only effect 80% of the cap after that it hits a hard limit and cant suck anymore energy below that point. (kind of like the way npc caps cant be drained fully) I look foward to peoples oppinions on this idea. curse ship bonuses Amarr Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness and 10% bonus to drone hit points and damage per level. Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 40% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer range and 20% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer transfer amount per level ArchAngel of Deklein
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.05 04:37:00 - [16] I dont think ECM e-war falls into the nos failing. ECM only works on specific ships, ECM doesnt benefit the owner in any way except taking no damage from the target for a small amount of time. ECM is easily broken by dampeners, other ecm or eccm mods, and the ships are tinfoil, so a small gang shouldnt have too hard a time popping them.. Sig removed. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] with a link to your signature. - Elmo Pug
lord shadowhawk N.A.S.A. Skunk-Works	Posted - 2007.06.05 04:56:00 - [17] Originally by: Sokratesz I dont think ECM e-war falls into the nos failing. ECM only works on specific ships, ECM doesnt benefit the owner in any way except taking no damage from the target for a small amount of time. ECM is easily broken by dampeners, other ecm or eccm mods, and the ships are tinfoil, so a small gang shouldnt have too hard a time popping them.. hrmm where was ECM e-war even brought up ? the only e-war even mentioned were tracking disruptors used by the same pilot that is nossing you and specificly on the curse.... ArchAngel of Deklein
Xio2 The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:42:00 - [18] Originally by: lord shadowhawk Originally by: Sokratesz I dont think ECM e-war falls into the nos failing. ECM only works on specific ships, ECM doesnt benefit the owner in any way except taking no damage from the target for a small amount of time. ECM is easily broken by dampeners, other ecm or eccm mods, and the ships are tinfoil, so a small gang shouldnt have too hard a time popping them.. hrmm where was ECM e-war even brought up ? the only e-war even mentioned were tracking disruptors used by the same pilot that is nossing you and specificly on the curse.... 2nd post -------------- Xio2
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:53:00 - [19] Yeah sorry should've quoted it. Sig removed. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] with a link to your signature. - Elmo Pug
Destiny Calling Amarr Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.06.05 07:57:00 - [20] As a purelp specced Amarr pilot, I genuinely do not have a problem with Nos... Really I don't. I can't actually think of a fir for any of ym ships that is Nos dependant, exception of my recons, but I do not fly them that much, though Nos and Amarr recons work well Everything in Eve has a counter, If your being NOS you can inject, if your damped you can sensor boost, if there moving to fast you can web them. I think complaining about Nos being unbalanced is like saying its unfair a warp disruptor stops you from warping as its not affected by tracking/sig etc My predominatly fly Cruiser and BC and fight outside 10-12 km I don't think NOS affects me that much, and really if im up agiasnt a Heavy Diminishing, then I can either fight through or bug out out of range. Take this with a pinch salt, just my opinions, and I would like to think I have a good grasp of the subject. Naturally im as **** off as the next guy when im <10km from target, webbed, scrammed and Nossed to ** but im just as annoyed when that happens and its damps, or Tracking disruptors (hate them bastards) ECM etc thats right I need a new sig

Sailon	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:15:00 - [21] Edited by: Sailon on 05/06/2007 08:16:05 Originally by: lord shadowhawk Edited by: lord shadowhawk on 05/06/2007 04:30:30 i wish people would get a clue about fitting... you can runn a full active shield tank on a nos domi and fit a full rack of 6 heavy noss's if you fill the lows with pdu's. you dont need maxed fitting skills to make it work either. im a noss user and have been on both sides of it. the sore point with nos is large boats can disable small boats in seconds... in real combat large ships need defence against smaller ones if they want to survive... (hence anti missile phlanax guns on carriers) the real problem seems to come from a single small ship (curse) being able to wipe out a multiple battleships in verry short order @ extreem range due to the ship bonuses that make an admittedly overpowered module even worse to the point of insanity. even with a heavy injector those little boats can ass ***your cap faster than you can go "what the....." leaveing the boats defencive systems totally offline (unless your useing a soon to be nerfed "passive tank from hell" but than you have no modules to try and counter the attacking boat anyways other than wepons.) allowing afore mentioned cruiser to release a swarm of t2 drones and well if your scrambled not a damn thing you can do about it... oh and dont forget your being tracking disrupted to a point where you cant even fire back with this going on.... standard nos modules you have some chance of avoiding by keeping range on your opponent or countering with heavy injectors as has been stated previously. 200% bonus to nos range and 100% boost to vamp effectiveness for a skilled pilot = your screwed tracking disruptors used in combination make it damn near impossible to keep out of range if your wanting to try and do something to the other guy before your tankless ship gets poped out from under you (if your not scrambled than yes you try to limp warp off before the cap drops below the point of allowing the warp drive to kick in) anyways just my 5c worth on the nos issue. summary nos is overpowered. specialist nos boats are insanly overpowered. what i propose is rather than nefing nos and the boats that use it is give all ships a 20% emergency cap safe guard when being attacked by nos (@ 20% the cap is below peak recharge rate so wont be able to maintain some tanks that push the limits of cap in the first place)so the nos can only effect 80% of the cap after that it hits a hard limit and cant suck anymore energy below that point. (kind of like the way npc caps cant be drained fully) I look foward to peoples oppinions on this idea. curse ship bonuses Amarr Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness and 10% bonus to drone hit points and damage per level. Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 40% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer range and 20% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer transfer amount per level then get ew use dampeners on curse also its thin of paper if its not having faction fit you could also check does curse have dmg type hole like pilgrim has thermal dmg hole.
Flem'berk	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:39:00 - [22] Possible fixs Stacking Nos: Question would this mean energy tranfer and neutralizers also stack? Increaseing cycle time on Nos: Simple fixs would mean cap recharge time is more important to a tank + cap boosters would work. ( 400's loose u cap to 4 heavy nos anyway and 800s wond support all your modules for ever whislt ur being nossed. Furthermore it goes bad when u have to relod the cap boosters.) Reduce cap amount obtained by nos or a negative effect to yourself like energy transfers ( except in ships with a bonus) or neutrialzers have.(using some of ur cap to work). Nos resitance: no idea how that would work Current counters = cap boosters( whihc arnt that gd unless ur nonactive tanking or not using void). using long range ammo( so lets all sell or balsters now: null wont save med blasters from heavy nos) having freinds in ew ships( I know the cgame wasnt ment ot be played solo but having to use lots of ships to kill a 1 month old nossing ship fails imo) oh and the current faviorte of most people more nos more nos to counter more nos!!!
Sailon	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:47:00 - [23] Originally by: Flem'berk Possible fixs Stacking Nos: Question would this mean energy tranfer and neutralizers also stack? Increaseing cycle time on Nos: Simple fixs would mean cap recharge time is more important to a tank + cap boosters would work. ( 400's loose u cap to 4 heavy nos anyway and 800s wond support all your modules for ever whislt ur being nossed. Furthermore it goes bad when u have to relod the cap boosters.) Reduce cap amount obtained by nos or a negative effect to yourself like energy transfers ( except in ships with a bonus) or neutrialzers have.(using some of ur cap to work). Nos resitance: no idea how that would work Current counters = cap boosters( whihc arnt that gd unless ur nonactive tanking or not using void). using long range ammo( so lets all sell or balsters now: null wont save med blasters from heavy nos) having freinds in ew ships( I know the cgame wasnt ment ot be played solo but having to use lots of ships to kill a 1 month old nossing ship fails imo) oh and the current faviorte of most people more nos more nos to counter more nos!!! no it would nerf the last good two amarr ships what amarr have i would go for energy emission slots example domi would have 2-3 emission slots so he cant fit full rack of nosses
Flem'berk	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:59:00 - [24] Edited by: Flem''berk on 05/06/2007 09:01:00 Originally by: Sailon no it would nerf the last good two amarr ships what amarr have i would go for energy emission slots example domi would have 2-3 emission slots so he cant fit full rack of nosses[/quote No it wouldnt a megapulse geddon is very powerful almsot same dps as B'thron but geddon is very cap heavy. vengence cap recharge bonus makes it a tough nut to ***** cos its hard to nos dry. and the nos bonus on curse or pilgrim would not be affected that much by an increased cycle time. or reduction in amout of cap drained.amarr have lots of greatship and would do better if people used less nos BUt energy emission slots is gd
Sailon	Posted - 2007.06.05 09:06:00 - [25] Edited by: Sailon on 05/06/2007 09:05:26 Originally by: Flem'berk Originally by: Sailon no it would nerf the last good two amarr ships what amarr have i would go for energy emission slots example domi would have 2-3 emission slots so he cant fit full rack of nosses[/quote No it wouldnt a megapulse geddon is very powerful almsot same dps as B'thron but geddon is very cap heavy. vengence cap recharge bonus makes it a tough nut to *** cos its hard to nos dry. and the nos bonus on curse or pilgrim would not be affected that much by an increased cycle time. or reduction in amout of cap drained.amarr have lots of greatship and would do better if people used less nos well firstly amarr ships em damage is same as **ing on electric wire while its being so highly resisted many great ships oh yea we cant even fit our lasers perfectly on some of our ships oh and we also miss one bonus so we can shoot our crappy laserlamps theres only very few good amarr ships
Baudolino Gallente Zer0 ToLeRaNcE Terror In The System	Posted - 2007.06.05 09:10:00 - [26] I`ve decided to do my part to keep nos as they are.. Why nos are not a problem.. As i see it, the major issue arrises from the combination of nos with loads of sensor damps, jamming and or nanos. Nos per se is by far a sure means of victory.
Flem'berk	Posted - 2007.06.05 09:16:00 - [27] Originally by: Sailon Edited by: Sailon on 05/06/2007 09:05:26 Originally by: Flem'berk Originally by: Sailon no it would nerf the last good two amarr ships what amarr have i would go for energy emission slots example domi would have 2-3 emission slots so he cant fit full rack of nosses[/quote No it wouldnt a megapulse geddon is very powerful almsot same dps as B'thron but geddon is very cap heavy. vengence cap recharge bonus makes it a tough nut to *** cos its hard to nos dry. and the nos bonus on curse or pilgrim would not be affected that much by an increased cycle time. or reduction in amout of cap drained.amarr have lots of greatship and would do better if people used less nos well firstly amarr ships em damage is same as **ing on electric wire while its being so highly resisted many great ships oh yea we cant even fit our lasers perfectly on some of our ships oh and we also miss one bonus so we can shoot our crappy laserlamps theres only very few good amarr ships Em damage is prity gd unless your taget is fitting dual eanm II but gank geddons and abbadons work fine for me, saying that my t2 gun pulse harb has no trouble with astartes or brutix's.And u get better range with pulse lasers than blasters.
bloomich Trotter's Independent Traders Co	Posted - 2007.06.05 09:18:00 - [28] Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Originally by: tarin adur Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Originally by: Dr Therikal Originally by: Vicious Phoenix (Though no ship can have any meaningful damage/tank combo with a full rack of nos) lol, learn EVE, please, then come back. Name one. Dominix can get like 450 dps running T2 ogres,I'd say that's Very good for a ship not fielding guns. But it can't fit a full rack of nos and a tank at the same time, which is what I said. /me whistles.... Powergrid Rigs /me whistles......
KurmoL	Posted - 2007.06.05 09:32:00 - [29] Originally by: NoNah Oh but I have been on test, and have you noticed the fact that modules does not break due to heat either? Heat issnt final, thats why its on sisi and not tranq. Question is, have YOU been on tranq? uve been only there once cuz heat damaging modules is already up so... useless flame...
Baudolino Gallente Zer0 ToLeRaNcE Terror In The System	Posted - 2007.06.05 10:48:00 - [30] Alot of people oppose nos for the fact that they can be combined with drones. Supposedly drones have great DPS. This shows a dangerous lack of understanding of how drones and guns actually work. Even with 50% bonus to drone damage and hit points- the DPS is gonna be unimpressive compared to that of guns- approd 1/3 of the damage range of a true gunship. Check the following link for more info on gunnery.. Guns beat drones While drones do add some damage- a nossing drone boat is gonna need a fairly long time to take down a gunship. Most likely the gunship will hardly need to use his repper..

madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.06.05 10:59:00 - [31] Originally by: bloomich Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Originally by: tarin adur Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Originally by: Dr Therikal Originally by: Vicious Phoenix (Though no ship can have any meaningful damage/tank combo with a full rack of nos) lol, learn EVE, please, then come back. Name one. Dominix can get like 450 dps running T2 ogres,I'd say that's Very good for a ship not fielding guns. But it can't fit a full rack of nos and a tank at the same time, which is what I said. /me whistles.... Powergrid Rigs /me whistles...... Might sound weird, but those really dont help much on Dominix pg... _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Kazuo Ishiguro	Posted - 2007.06.05 12:50:00 - [32] Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 05/06/2007 12:49:10 Originally by: Baudolino Even with 50% bonus to drone damage and hit points- the DPS is gonna be unimpressive compared to that of guns- approd 1/3 of the damage range of a true gunship. Check the following link for more info on gunnery.. Guns beat drones I've done quite a bit of research on this myself. I've found that drones work in exactly the same way as turrets when calculating hit quality: Effective dps = base dps * [min(chance to hit, 1%)3 + max(0,chance to hit - 1%)(0.99 + chance to hit)/2] So it's fairly simple to make a direct comparison between drones and turrets. Drones are not affected so much by lower hit quality as turrets are, since they typically operate at ~95% chance to hit (apart from sentries). ------ Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant tanking
Mashie Saldana Hooligans Of War	Posted - 2007.06.05 13:38:00 - [33] Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Originally by: Dr Therikal Originally by: Vicious Phoenix (Though no ship can have any meaningful damage/tank combo with a full rack of nos) lol, learn EVE, please, then come back. Name one. Actually there is one using a Dominix: High: 4 x heavy nos 2 x heavy neut Mid: As much Ewar as you want. Low: Damage Control II 6 x Reinforced Bulkhead II 2 or 3 PG rigs. With the soon to come remote structure repairers this will be an even more viable setup. We're sorry, something happened.
n0thing omen. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.06.05 13:46:00 - [34] Originally by: Vicious Phoenix I really hate noob style caps lock posts but I think I need to say it to get through to you. EVE IS NOT BALANCED BASED ON 1 VS 1 COMBAT. Also, as I have said before, if you use one of your slots to fit a cap injector you can counter 4 heavy nos with 400 charges and more or less a full rack of them with 800 charges. (Though no ship can have any meaningful damage/tank combo with a full rack of nos) I can fit max of 10 cap boosters into my BC with 0m3 space left. 10x12 = 120 secs + 10x10 = 100 secs of reload time = 220 secs. So, I have around 3 minutes of fight before I have my defences shut down so as my guns will be. Now, in a classic situation, if I would be in nosf ship with equivalent tank, and no reinforcements would come, Id just sit there shooting down his drones or just tanking him till he runs out of boosters. Nosf = constant, Booster = limited time and also takes ALOT of cargo. Imo, if you want to make boosters a good nosf counter, cut 2/3 of their volume so people can stash up to 40 charges into cargo on BS. Then at least you wouldnt have to rearm after each 2-3 fights. ---
Jasai Kameron Setenta Corp Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 14:06:00 - [35] Another Domi Setup with full rack of heavy nosf: 6 x Heavy Diminishing 1 x XL C5-L 1 x em harderner t2 2 x invunerability hardener t2 1 x shield extender t2 7 x t2 pdu I've got good resistances (72, 79, 69, 59) on 13,367 hp of shields. Good cap obviously, too. Yes, no propulsion or scrambling, but you didn't ask for that, and as you say, EVE is not balanced on 1v1 combat. Plus I've got tons of powergrid left over, so you could probably take out some of the pdus and put other shield tank assisting mods in. The other alternative is to fit ancillary routers as rigs. I'm pretty sure that'll allow you to fit 6 heavy nosf on the cookie cutter Dominix.
Lord DarkStar Gallente Mobile Alcohol Processing Units	Posted - 2007.06.05 14:32:00 - [36] now im yet to test in accual pvp with it but i was testing incorp pvp,but with my nos domi i was able to take a fully fitted T2 pest gunship,i got his armor down to around 20% before we stopped,my armor was 50%ish,that is just with ogre 2s as dps,now as i read above,something about guns > then drones for dps,yes they are but my nos assisted tank can hold out alot longer then anyone elses because of cap,and they have to cap boost all the time to keep theirs running,i know full well nos is overpowered on ships like the domi and i know full well ccp is gona nerf it,i would even be ok with it if they removed nos from the game mainly because ive always felt that it should be big ships slugging it out with big ships and smaller ones for support,and yes i do realize that if removing nos it removes bs defence against inty lockdown and all that but if nos never existed in the game what would you do then? all in all,nos is over powered as is and ccp will nerf it probly to the point of uselessness but im going to keep using it till they do
Vasiliyan Dutch T2 Production	Posted - 2007.06.05 14:34:00 - [37] Unlike all the other weapon systems, NOS requires almost no skillpoints to be effective. You don't have to be a "NOS specialist".
bloomich Trotter's Independent Traders Co	Posted - 2007.06.05 14:36:00 - [38] Originally by: Jasai Kameron The other alternative is to fit ancillary routers as rigs. I'm pretty sure that'll allow you to fit 6 heavy nosf on the cookie cutter Dominix. Its the only alternative. Powergrid rigs will let you fit full rack of nos and a fruity ew setup + scram and tank.
Privious	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:27:00 - [39] Edited by: Privious on 05/06/2007 16:29:05 Edited by: Privious on 05/06/2007 16:27:26 few reasons why Nos SHOULD be nerfed. 1.) nos do not require many skills and are yet VERY effective so basicly every 'n00b' in a nos boat (domi w/e) and use the nos on for example on an abaddon and **** up it's cap, ability to fire and his tank.. so the n00b will only need fairly little damage to kill it with even a cheaper ship then the more skilled abaddon pilot. 2.) Comment on the noob which i will not name in the other topic which said 'asking to nerf nos is about the same as asking for a gun nerf' well unlike Nos you can tank guns. 3.) the only way to kill nos is either more nos or Blobbing.. and it's just stupid you need more or better ships to kill another. Like I already said in the other topic.. 1-2 nos are fine.. sure you can keep your tank alive and i fully understand if Amarr ships used 1-2 nosses there should be a penalty like for example this; 2 nos = 10 drain every 10 seconds(no penalty) 3 nos will get 5 drain every 20 seconds (penalty) 4 nos will get 2.5 drain every 40 seconds (penalty) this is just an example.
Neon Genesis The Landed Gentry	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:49:00 - [40] Originally by: Baudolino Alot of people oppose nos for the fact that they can be combined with drones. Supposedly drones have great DPS. This shows a dangerous lack of understanding of how drones and guns actually work. Even with 50% bonus to drone damage and hit points- the DPS is gonna be unimpressive compared to that of guns- approd 1/3 of the damage range of a true gunship. Check the following link for more info on gunnery.. Guns beat drones While drones do add some damage- a nossing drone boat is gonna need a fairly long time to take down a gunship. Most likely the gunship will hardly need to use his repper.. 400 or so is a significant amount of damage when your enemies defences are completely shut down. _

Phaedruss	Posted - 2007.06.05 17:53:00 - [41] Edited by: Phaedruss on 05/06/2007 17:57:49 Originally by: n0thing I can fit max of 10 cap boosters into my BC with 0m3 space left. 10x12 = 120 secs + 10x10 = 100 secs of reload time = 220 secs. So, I have around 3 minutes of fight before I have my defences shut down so as my guns will be. Now, in a classic situation, if I would be in nosf ship with equivalent tank, and no reinforcements would come, Id just sit there shooting down his drones or just tanking him till he runs out of boosters. Nosf = constant, Booster = limited time and also takes ALOT of cargo. Imo, if you want to make boosters a good nosf counter, cut 2/3 of their volume so people can stash up to 40 charges into cargo on BS. Then at least you wouldnt have to rearm after each 2-3 fights. I agree. Cap boosters still have too much volume, and in my opinion, the injectors have fitting requirements that are too high. Both of these should be looked at before a NOS nerf is considered.
Privious	Posted - 2007.06.05 21:10:00 - [42] Originally by: Phaedruss Edited by: Phaedruss on 05/06/2007 17:57:49 Originally by: n0thing I can fit max of 10 cap boosters into my BC with 0m3 space left. 10x12 = 120 secs + 10x10 = 100 secs of reload time = 220 secs. So, I have around 3 minutes of fight before I have my defences shut down so as my guns will be. Now, in a classic situation, if I would be in nosf ship with equivalent tank, and no reinforcements would come, Id just sit there shooting down his drones or just tanking him till he runs out of boosters. Nosf = constant, Booster = limited time and also takes ALOT of cargo. Imo, if you want to make boosters a good nosf counter, cut 2/3 of their volume so people can stash up to 40 charges into cargo on BS. Then at least you wouldnt have to rearm after each 2-3 fights. I agree. Cap boosters still have too much volume, and in my opinion, the injectors have fitting requirements that are too high. Both of these should be looked at before a NOS nerf is considered. They should be nerfed anyway. Look at my comment above.
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2007.06.05 21:24:00 - [43] Originally by: Phaedruss I agree. Cap boosters still have too much volume, and in my opinion, the injectors have fitting requirements that are too high. Both of these should be looked at before a NOS nerf is considered. I fully support a cap booster buff. Just don't nerf nos. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too. Originally by: CCP Tuxford I prefer dew over pepsi. I prefer beer over most things. Damn now I want beer.
Maeltstome Minmatar Caldari Navy Raiders Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.06.05 21:49:00 - [44] Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Originally by: tarin adur Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Originally by: Dr Therikal Originally by: Vicious Phoenix (Though no ship can have any meaningful damage/tank combo with a full rack of nos) lol, learn EVE, please, then come back. Name one. Dominix can get like 450 dps running T2 ogres,I'd say that's Very good for a ship not fielding guns. But it can't fit a full rack of nos and a tank at the same time, which is what I said. With the implimentation of Pwergrid rigs, i sincerely beg to differ. I challenge anyone one to take on 2x Nos domi's, both kitted with 4x nos and 2x remote repairers and win. Without ECM it becomes nigh on impossible. Im sick of stupid idea's about nerfing nos, like energy slots. Add a stacking nerf. Most ships will fit 1 nos (megathron, tempest will fit 2, 1 on a geddon etc. etc.) - but when it gets to the stage of people fitting entire ships with it, takes it too far. Ideally Nos should be like all other forms of EW, nice supplimetary unless fitted on a specific role bonused ship - eg. the curse. hands up who'd like to see heavy Nos range nerfed - and maybe another side effect (some form of attack on its effectivness when stacked).
SasRipper DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2007.06.05 23:59:00 - [45] Originally by: Maeltstome I challenge anyone one to take on 2x Nos domi's, both kitted with 4x nos and 2x remote repairers and win. Without ECM it becomes nigh on impossible. Im sick of stupid idea's about nerfing nos, like energy slots. Add a stacking nerf. Most ships will fit 1 nos (megathron, tempest will fit 2, 1 on a geddon etc. etc.) - but when it gets to the stage of people fitting entire ships with it, takes it too far. Ideally Nos should be like all other forms of EW, nice supplimetary unless fitted on a specific role bonused ship - eg. the curse. hands up who'd like to see heavy Nos range nerfed - and maybe another side effect (some form of attack on its effectivness when stacked). WOW SOME1 WITHA CLUE /ME HUGS the remouting repping domis are scary & your right 1/2 nos is fine helps keep guns harders on. The problem is the domis & the nos rokhs however even the 1/2 nos ships nos abilty should be affected in a group. IE 8 tempests insta pwning cap etc snip Sas has spoken this tread shall be locked.
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2007.06.06 02:11:00 - [46] Originally by: SasRipper Originally by: Maeltstome I challenge anyone one to take on 2x Nos domi's, both kitted with 4x nos and 2x remote repairers and win. Without ECM it becomes nigh on impossible. Im sick of stupid idea's about nerfing nos, like energy slots. Add a stacking nerf. Most ships will fit 1 nos (megathron, tempest will fit 2, 1 on a geddon etc. etc.) - but when it gets to the stage of people fitting entire ships with it, takes it too far. Ideally Nos should be like all other forms of EW, nice supplimetary unless fitted on a specific role bonused ship - eg. the curse. hands up who'd like to see heavy Nos range nerfed - and maybe another side effect (some form of attack on its effectivness when stacked). WOW SOME1 WITHA CLUE /ME HUGS the remouting repping domis are scary & your right 1/2 nos is fine helps keep guns harders on. The problem is the domis & the nos rokhs however even the 1/2 nos ships nos abilty should be affected in a group. IE 8 tempests insta pwning cap etc Umm guys, what do remote reps have to do with nos balance? That's like saying that scrams should be nerfed since when I use one with a web it's nigh on impossible to get away from me. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too. Originally by: CCP Tuxford I prefer dew over pepsi. I prefer beer over most things. Damn now I want beer.
khurik	Posted - 2007.06.06 05:01:00 - [47] Edited by: khurik on 06/06/2007 05:01:02 ok, how about this 1. Tone down the nos stats a little and add skills to bring it up to the same level it is now (possibly stronger) 2. Add some factor that affects NOS performance, call it energy systems resistance, etc make it like sig radius: bigger it is more effective it is, it'd stop people going overboard with nos on smaller ships 3. Make the drain proportional to the relative cap level in both ships. i.e. when your cap is empty and theirs is full it's most effective, vice versa is least effective, this would stop people filling their high's with NOS. 4. As some one else pointed out cap boosters should have their size reduced (CCP already did this, but not quite enough). 5. Reduce the range and add falloff, since nos get a bonus on the curse we may as well treat them like Ewar fittings. 6. Add a skill or skills that reduce the effectiveness of NOS, or maybe have certain fittings that give a bonus to NOS 'resistance' as a secondary effect. I'm not saying any or all of these should or will be implemented, but as far as i can tell they're perfectly reasonable solutions, the main problems with NOS that have people complaining seem to be: 1. They take no skill to use effectively 2. People are are overusing them 3. There is no effective defense against people with just NOS (see #2). look, i like NOS! i think they're great, but they are overpowered, they're probably going to get nerfed come Rev 2, and i for one DON'T want to see what happened to ECM happen to NOS. So what i'm saying to boils down to this: make nos less effective without training, and bring in new skills to bring it back up... say you had skills to boost nos range, and cycle time (etc) with these skills at lvl 4, NOS would be as effective as it is now. Yes, doing this would make nos MORE dangerous, but only with training, and how many people REALLY want to train a Lvl 5 skill just for nos. Yes there are people who'll do it, but it'll either be at the expense of something else, or you're probably screwed anyway...
Selene Le'Cotiere	Posted - 2007.06.06 06:57:00 - [48] My thoughts on Nos... At their core, Nos and Neuts are weapon systems. Pure and simple. So why not just treat them as such? 1) Give these systems a limited number of high slots (like guns and missiles). No need for a stacking nerf at all though (My missiles or blasters don't have a stacking nerf). 2) Make it cost something to use them. With neuts that's already taken into account, through cap loss. But what about nos? Normally, there is nothing needed to use it, so I would suggest it requiring a fuel source of some sort, whether it be ammo or fuel (ohh... let's say liquid oxygen for example). 3) Take tracking and sig radius into account for amount of cap neutralized/sucked. So, if you really want to use your heavy nos's on a frig or other small vessel... web and/or paint the ship to get more bang for the buck. 4) Resistances? As the capacitor is an inherent component of our ships, not unlike that of the sensors and warp core, there is no inherent resistance value built into these systems. Aside from Cap Boosters and mods that increase cap recharge rates, perhaps a series of "Capacitor Stabilizer" mods providing a xx% reduction in transfered/neutralized energy, much like the energy resistance on armor/shields. On the upside for nos/neuts? A modest increase in range and/or energy transfered/neutralized could be in order. Perhaps due to increased levels of skill training, as well as from bonuses for specialized ship designs (i.e. Curse). Why? A couple of reasons... you'll be fitting less systems, into those high slots, diminishing your overall effectiveness over the current system in place. Also, your opponents will also have potentially more options available to aid in countering your cap draining attacks. I know, perhaps a bit long winded... just wanted to put my .02 isk out there.
Gibbal Slogspit Buffed Rumpuss Zit Dids	Posted - 2007.06.06 09:00:00 - [49] Nos...why is it overpowered? Its 'skillpoint-less' in my opinion; so many times has my t2 mega pulse geddon been completely neutralised so easily to those ghey Dominix, leaving me to die slowly, because I cant shoot back, and 5 heavy drones without damage bonus dont do that much damage. Now check the skills required for Heavy Nosferatu, and the skills for Mega Pulse Laser II? Yea? 2 Heavy Nos is enough to put my zealot out of action too...ANNOYING. Its a massive iwin button for smaller ships, it NEEDS a nerf.
SasRipper DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2007.06.06 13:13:00 - [50] Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Umm guys, what do remote reps have to do with nos balance? The point on remoute reps is simply that nos domis have enough cap not only to rep themseleves ewar the target & repair there gang mates which makes a gang of nos domis probable the unstopable force of eve. could you try to get a clue & a main k thx bye snip Sas has spoken this tread shall be locked.

Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.06.06 13:32:00 - [51] Originally by: Privious Edited by: Privious on 05/06/2007 16:29:05 Edited by: Privious on 05/06/2007 16:27:26 3.) the only way to kill nos is either more nos or Blobbing.. and it's just stupid you need more or better ships to kill another. Not entirely true. A gank-mega can kill a NOS-domi way before cap becomes an issue. I'm sure alot of other ships can do the same thing. The trick is to deal as much damage as possible before the NOSship gets any advantage from its NOS.
SasRipper DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2007.06.06 13:39:00 - [52] Originally by: Cpt Fina Not entirely true. A gank-mega can kill a NOS-domi way before cap becomes an issue. I'm sure alot of other ships can do the same thing. The trick is to deal as much damage as possible before the NOSship gets any advantage from its NOS. sadly not true in alota cases i fly neutron megas & depending on startuing distance, double webs & tracking disrupter the mega can still lose. snip Sas has spoken this tread shall be locked.
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.06.07 17:30:00 - [53] Originally by: SasRipper Originally by: Cpt Fina Not entirely true. A gank-mega can kill a NOS-domi way before cap becomes an issue. I'm sure alot of other ships can do the same thing. The trick is to deal as much damage as possible before the NOSship gets any advantage from its NOS. sadly not true in alota cases i fly neutron megas & depending on startuing distance, double webs & tracking disrupter the mega can still lose. Sure it can loose, however it can also blow the domi up before it has to rep a single cycle. A gankmega can loose to a NOSdomi and a raven can loose to a crow, don't know what your point is.
SasRipper DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2007.06.07 17:51:00 - [54] Originally by: Cpt Fina Sure it can loose, however it can also blow the domi up before it has to rep a single cycle. The max dps possible out of gank mega is around 1400 so how the hell are going kill it before it reps. The gank mega is the only ship i fly @ the mo so i think i know what its capable off. In 9/10 cases yes the gank mega will beat a domi & the common 4 heavy nos 2med neuts screws your cap over very quickly espically when you alough for mwd closing. If he knoocked out your cap quick enough the injector wont alough the guns long enough to overwhelm a good domis tank. snip Sas has spoken this tread shall be locked.
Dexton Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:12:00 - [55] I just feel that most of the people that are whining about a nos nerf dont take the time to find the root of the promblem and seems to be very general when it comes to whining about getting nerfs or buff, there is absolutly nothing wrong with nos it is just like ew is a alternitive to tank where you instead of getting a deffense that is consistant and there for has limits on the other hand with ew you get a defence that is depending on something (change, distance, speed etc.) and in many ways nos simular but in a offensive way it is supposed to decrease your damage while giving u more strength and draining your enemies strength, in most cases like tempest or raven there is nothing wrong with this typhoon is maybe questionable but i dont think its overpowered since u lose alot of dmg and tank for the nos but maybe it can hold a little to much nos but the main cause of the problem here seems to me to be with the drone boats rather than the nos itself reason why is that having the amount of nosage that is capable of drasticly gimping the cap of the opponent even with a cap booster doesnt affect their main weapon system in any way, I know it makes for alot of work to get a good solution to the real problem here but as the ecm nerf shows its better to not nerf than to impliment a bad fix. Giving nos less range would make it possible to fight nos with controling range wich would make smaller faster ships able to evage beeing nosed and might be a suitable solution also the nos/utility slots would prevent people to spamming to many on their but would also lead to people trying to fewer and bigger nos instead so it as with every would have to be looked very well into and tested before it would be put in. I think the idea about tracking/sig radius on nos wouldn't have the effect it is ment have since smaller ships usualy have even less cap to spare especialy frigs that most of the time dont have more than 1/2 extra cap/s left or even just a fragtoin of that when running a mwd and a scram.
n0thing omen. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.06.07 19:25:00 - [56] Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Originally by: Phaedruss I agree. Cap boosters still have too much volume, and in my opinion, the injectors have fitting requirements that are too high. Both of these should be looked at before a NOS nerf is considered. I fully support a cap booster buff. Just don't nerf nos. Maybe even a good idea would be to make cap booster charges like interdictor probes. Like one charge, has activation of 5 minutes and each say like 15 secs it boosts your cap. Then you gotta reload it. Both with cut in volumes, the cap injected ship will be perfectly fine against nosf in 1v1. ---
Xoduse Gallente Beasts of Burden YouWhat	Posted - 2007.06.07 19:48:00 - [57] Originally by: Destiny Calling As a purelp specced Amarr pilot, I genuinely do not have a problem with Nos... Really I don't. I can't actually think of a fir for any of ym ships that is Nos dependant, exception of my recons, but I do not fly them that much, though Nos and Amarr recons work well Everything in Eve has a counter, If your being NOS you can inject, if your damped you can sensor boost, if there moving to fast you can web them. I think complaining about Nos being unbalanced is like saying its unfair a warp disruptor stops you from warping as its not affected by tracking/sig etc My predominatly fly Cruiser and BC and fight outside 10-12 km I don't think NOS affects me that much, and really if im up agiasnt a Heavy Diminishing, then I can either fight through or bug out out of range. Take this with a pinch salt, just my opinions, and I would like to think I have a good grasp of the subject. Naturally im as **** off as the next guy when im <10km from target, webbed, scrammed and Nossed to ** but im just as annoyed when that happens and its damps, or Tracking disruptors (hate them bastards) ECM etc ok so a domi has 2x heavy nos and 4x medium...that pretty much nullifys your injector. Most people point out here that you still have your natural uninjected cap to tank off of. Ask an ammarrian or gallente blaster pilot how long that lasts. I'm gallente, but I despise the stupid nosdomi. I have 4mil sp in drones and 7mil sp in gunnery, i want to fecking use them ---------------------
Serret Nevets Puppets on Steroids	Posted - 2007.06.07 19:55:00 - [58] What about having nos treated the same as a turreted weapon like a blaster? Tracking problems when disrupted, variable energy amounts pulled, etc. If it could be affected by tracking disruptor's then you'd have your defense against it. Spanking or being spanked... it's up to you.
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.06.10 03:22:00 - [59] Originally by: SasRipper Originally by: Cpt Fina Sure it can loose, however it can also blow the domi up before it has to rep a single cycle. The max dps possible out of gank mega is around 1400 so how the hell are going kill it before it reps. The gank mega is the only ship i fly @ the mo so i think i know what its capable off. In 9/10 cases yes the gank mega will beat a domi & the common 4 heavy nos 2med neuts screws your cap over very quickly espically when you alough for mwd closing. If he knoocked out your cap quick enough the injector wont alough the guns long enough to overwhelm a good domis tank. My main flies one aswell and just like you said about a NOSdomi killing a gankmega it depends on alot of things. Initial engagementrange, fitting, skills and ect. My point was that the only way to kill NOSboats is with more NOS is utter bllsht
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2007.06.10 03:51:00 - [60] I just noticed that almost every single reason that nos needs to be nerfed revolves around the nos domi. Maybe it's not the module that needs to be nerfed but that particular ship. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too. Originally by: CCP Tuxford I prefer dew over pepsi. I prefer beer over most things. Damn now I want beer.



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