Quote:

---

Supercaps

We have also looked into the problems regarding Motherships and Titans. One of the main complaints is they are virtually indestructible if the pilot knows what he is doing. Even though they are costly to produce, their capabilities far exceed their expense and is something we need to address. Warp Disruption Probes (launched by Interdictors) and Mobile Warp Disruptors will prevent capital ships from jumping or warping respectively. While many capital ships fit smartbombs specifically to counter Warp Disruption Probes, it is possible to keep them out of harmÆs way with careful placement.

Doomsday devices have been revisited. The remote detonation capability through Cynosural Fields has been removed, now Titans must be present in the same area as their targets. Additionally, firing the doomsday devices prevents the Titan from using its jump drive for 10 minutes. This means the Titan must expose itself to enemy retribution after detonation.

---

Quote:

---

While many capital ships fit smartbombs specifically to counter Warp Disruption Probes, it is possible to keep them out of harmÆs way with careful placement.

---

Quote:

---

While many capital ships fit smartbombs specifically to counter Warp Disruption Probes, it is possible to keep them out of harmÆs way with careful placement.

---

Originally by: B Glorious

---

Just one thing:

Quote:

---

While many capital ships fit smartbombs specifically to counter Warp Disruption Probes, it is possible to keep them out of harmÆs way with careful placement.

---

You haven't said anything about the bounding spheres affecting smartbomb range.

If you still don't know what we're talking about, try this:

1) Get an Avatar, Ragnarok, whatever
2) Fit a Chelm's or Draclira's Modified Large EMP smartbomb (or two)
3) Sit a few ships at varying ranges from the titan, such as 7km, 11km, 14km, 17km, and 21km
4) activate the smartbombs and see which ships get hit. You will be amazed.

If you don't fix the bounding spheres, then titans will still be virtually invincible. And so far, it seems that they'll still be invincible in lowsec, where you can't launch bubbles.

Further, you haven't mentioned the extra gang bonuses that titans give with effects comparable to pirate implant sets worth billions of ISK, or anything about jump-bridging freighters, or even cloaking. Its good to get an update, but you still aren't addressing real issues that players are concerned about.

---

Originally by: Malachon Draco

---

Originally by: B Glorious

---

Just one thing:

Quote:

---

While many capital ships fit smartbombs specifically to counter Warp Disruption Probes, it is possible to keep them out of harmÆs way with careful placement.

---

You haven't said anything about the bounding spheres affecting smartbomb range.

If you still don't know what we're talking about, try this:

1) Get an Avatar, Ragnarok, whatever
2) Fit a Chelm's or Draclira's Modified Large EMP smartbomb (or two)
3) Sit a few ships at varying ranges from the titan, such as 7km, 11km, 14km, 17km, and 21km
4) activate the smartbombs and see which ships get hit. You will be amazed.

If you don't fix the bounding spheres, then titans will still be virtually invincible. And so far, it seems that they'll still be invincible in lowsec, where you can't launch bubbles.

Further, you haven't mentioned the extra gang bonuses that titans give with effects comparable to pirate implant sets worth billions of ISK, or anything about jump-bridging freighters, or even cloaking. Its good to get an update, but you still aren't addressing real issues that players are concerned about.

---

Exactly, you are ignoring the effect of officer smartbombs and the weird range calculations for warp disruptors vs smartbomb range.

This is not a viable solution.

---

Originally by: Darpz

---

another problem with amarr. no other race has a problem fitting a full rack of its biggest guns like amarr do.

Mega can fit 7 425s no sweat
Raven can fit 6 siege no problem
mael can fit 8 1400s
pretty sure a pest can fit 6 1400s without fitting mods

try fitting 8 tachs on a apoc or even a abbadon? yeah gl on that without fitting mods

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

Your graph is laughable, something is terribly wrong with it. Ingoring the fact that you are using 3 ships that are not gunboats to compare gun damage. You have the Apoc, with 8 guns, cant outdamage a typhoon with 4? It doesnt even get close to the 6 gun domi?

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Originally by: maarud

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Originally by: Darpz

---

another problem with amarr. no other race has a problem fitting a full rack of its biggest guns like amarr do.

Mega can fit 7 425s no sweat
Raven can fit 6 siege no problem
mael can fit 8 1400s
pretty sure a pest can fit 6 1400s without fitting mods

try fitting 8 tachs on a apoc or even a abbadon? yeah gl on that without fitting mods

---

Pest needs PG Rigs to fit it

---

Originally by: maarud

---

Originally by: Darpz

---

another problem with amarr. no other race has a problem fitting a full rack of its biggest guns like amarr do.

Mega can fit 7 425s no sweat
Raven can fit 6 siege no problem
mael can fit 8 1400s
pretty sure a pest can fit 6 1400s without fitting mods

try fitting 8 tachs on a apoc or even a abbadon? yeah gl on that without fitting mods

---

Pest needs PG Rigs to fit it

---

Quote:

---

Doomsday devices have been revisited. The remote detonation capability through Cynosural Fields has been removed, now Titans must be present in the same area as their targets. Additionally, firing the doomsday devices prevents the Titan from using its jump drive for 10 minutes. This means the Titan must expose itself to enemy retribution after detonation

---

Originally by: Belenkas

---

Some timer sure needed to be applied, but 10 minutes... Several dreads could kill the titan during the time. Looks like you will need HUGE support of capitals if you are willing to fire off the doomsday so that enemy doesn't jump a fleet of dreads and melt the titan in a matter of few minutes.

---

Originally by: Mashie Saldana

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

Your graph is laughable, something is terribly wrong with it. Ingoring the fact that you are using 3 ships that are not gunboats to compare gun damage. You have the Apoc, with 8 guns, cant outdamage a typhoon with 4? It doesnt even get close to the 6 gun domi?

---

Lol, you do realise it is damage per gun in that graph right?

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Originally by: Aramendel

---

Edited by: Aramendel on 08/06/2007 13:45:15
I wanted to comment this as well.

Quote:

---

While many capital ships fit smartbombs specifically to counter Warp Disruption Probes, it is possible to keep them out of harmÆs way with careful placement.

---

The whole problem is that you CANNOT do this due to smartbombs having bigger ranges than "on paper" for capitals.

---

Originally by: CCP Abathur

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Edited by: Aramendel on 08/06/2007 13:45:15
I wanted to comment this as well.

Quote:

---

While many capital ships fit smartbombs specifically to counter Warp Disruption Probes, it is possible to keep them out of harmÆs way with careful placement.

---

The whole problem is that you CANNOT do this due to smartbombs having bigger ranges than "on paper" for capitals.

---

We did look into this. We ran an Avatar with seven 10km smartbombs on our test server and set an Interdictor orbiting it at 15km constantly dropping bubbles. The smartbombs had no effect.

---

Originally by: clone 1

---

I am sorry, but these ideas of Amarr (Thats the correct spelling, Kieron ) 'boosts' seem to me to be ideas born out of time constraints rather than actually thinking and solving the whole Amarr issue.



Nerftastic 4, I love it.

---

Originally by: Darpz

---

and thats assuming the fact he is stupid enough not to start warp immediatly when he drops on grid to DD

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Edited by: Aramendel on 08/06/2007 14:32:23

Originally by: Darpz

---

and thats assuming the fact he is stupid enough not to start warp immediatly when he drops on grid to DD

---

Or in the worst case, assuming a dictor can drop a bubble on the spot where the titan comes out of warp in the last split seconds of him decelerating, he can still start his warp right after the DD when no dictor bubble (or dictor) is alive near him.

No dictor will be able to drop a bubble at the titan after DD before he can start his warp unless for some strange reason the dictor does not lag out but the titan does.

Unless dictor bubbles stop started warps just like targeted jammers they won't do anything vs titans unless you get lucky with lag.

---

Originally by: Tuxford

---

Feb Devblog
What about the Amarr?!?!
Well I guess I did promise. For me there are number of problems that plague Amarr. The biggest one in my opinion is the popularity of so called omni tank. That is tanks that just boost the tank equally over all the resistances. On smaller ships that can be explained by the ease at which people are fitting oversized plates. On bigger ships it has to do with viability of plates but also people are often choosing EANM over active hardeners.

Comparing EANM with active hardener isn't really straight forward process. You might be tempted just compare the average resistance, or that is the average damage that leaks through. That's fine if it's what you want to do but given that only two types of turrets do EM damage and projectile do little of it, then I'd take a high kinetic and thermal resistance instead of high EM resistance any day. The reason I don't always fit an active hardener is simply because they use up too much cpu. Tech 2 activatable armor hardeners uses 14tf more than energized one and that amounts to a lot of cpu need. In a pinch we might consider fiddling with base resistances, that is increase EM resistance a bit on shield and lower it on armor but that's something we really shouldn't do unless we have to.

Amarr needs oomph. TomB and I have been talking about giving them oomph. What is oomph? I don't know but I sure like typing it. The Amarr were supposed to be the capacitor race, today that can be best characterized by the fact that they need most of it. It seems blatantly obvious that they should get bonus to capacitor warfare. Of course that is totally dependant on how we're "overhauling" nosferatus.

People say that beams are too hard to fit and in general, I agree. Then why haven't we done anything? Well it can be really time consuming and frankly there is always something "bigger" we need to think about. We haven't forgotten about this however.

Khanid MK2. I don't think I need to explain what it is, in general we liked the idea and I don't think it's at all unlikely that we will actually go through with it.

General ship loving. There are some ships that need help and we're gonna give it to them. Which ships you might ask? Well, Armageddon might need some fitting help, the cruisers aren't really that great and Apocalypse might get a bit of a role twist.

---

Originally by: Thanos Draicon

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Edited by: Aramendel on 08/06/2007 14:32:23

Originally by: Darpz

---

and thats assuming the fact he is stupid enough not to start warp immediatly when he drops on grid to DD

---

Or in the worst case, assuming a dictor can drop a bubble on the spot where the titan comes out of warp in the last split seconds of him decelerating, he can still start his warp right after the DD when no dictor bubble (or dictor) is alive near him.

No dictor will be able to drop a bubble at the titan after DD before he can start his warp unless for some strange reason the dictor does not lag out but the titan does.

Unless dictor bubbles stop started warps just like targeted jammers they won't do anything vs titans unless you get lucky with lag.

---

These changes may not make it especially easy to trap a Titan, but wouldn't the threat of said trapping be enough to make people think alot harder before using them in combat? It's a good start, I think.

---

Originally by: Justin Mathers

---

Quote:

---

Supercaps

We have also looked into the problems regarding Motherships and Titans. One of the main complaints is they are virtually indestructible if the pilot knows what he is doing. Even though they are costly to produce, their capabilities far exceed their expense and is something we need to address. Warp Disruption Probes (launched by Interdictors) and Mobile Warp Disruptors will prevent capital ships from jumping or warping respectively. While many capital ships fit smartbombs specifically to counter Warp Disruption Probes, it is possible to keep them out of harmÆs way with careful placement.

Doomsday devices have been revisited. The remote detonation capability through Cynosural Fields has been removed, now Titans must be present in the same area as their targets. Additionally, firing the doomsday devices prevents the Titan from using its jump drive for 10 minutes. This means the Titan must expose itself to enemy retribution after detonation.

---

Ok, that's great for 0.0, but what about low-sec. A low-sec mothership is still indestructible as you cannot prevent it from jumping out of system. Unless I am mistaken, You can't drop dictor bubbles in low sec right?

---

Originally by: alpheon

---

Prevent the Titans from warping for 10 minutes also, and you've got your self a deal.

They may not be able to jump... but a Titan dropping a DDD won't have ANYTHING nearby that can get to it and drop a bubble on it. the DDD will have wiped out anything near by, and zooom, it just warps away.

Also, make the DDD cost more. I think I heard the fuel costs for a DDD blast was approx 20Million Isk? I've bought rail guns that cost more then that...

---

Originally by: Shadowsword

---

Edited by: Shadowsword on 08/06/2007 13:08:36
Ok, this blog is a recap of what we already knew.

No where's the real dev blog about boosting amarrs? Or are you telling us that 6 more CPU on EANM II is the only thing you'll do about the EM damage on armor issue?

---

Originally by: QwaarJet

---

<snip>
On sisi, there is a bonus on bombers that allows them to basically hit frigs for maximum damage, is that staying in?

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Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

---

Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 08/06/2007 15:30:54
This is my attempt at a more useful version of the graph produced by the author of the blog:
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/KzIg/a_better_graph.GIF

This is my attempt at a more useful descripition for a more useful graph:

Damage per second vs. range for single guns on three typical ships (without drones or modules, for the sake of simplicity), for a pilot with maxed skills, firing at a Gallente battleship of signature radius 450m, on armour, fitted with 2x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II and a Damage Control II, orbiting at 150m/s.

I believe that this graph will give people a much better idea of the problems with Amarr damage types than the one in the blog. Also, please note how often Amarr pilots need to change crystals if their target attempts to dictate range.

---

Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

---

Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 08/06/2007 15:30:54
This is my attempt at a more useful version of the graph produced by the author of the blog:
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/KzIg/a_better_graph.GIF

This is my attempt at a more useful descripition for a more useful graph:

Damage per second vs. range for single guns on three typical ships (without drones or modules, for the sake of simplicity), for a pilot with maxed skills, firing at a Gallente battleship of signature radius 450m, on armour, fitted with 2x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II and a Damage Control II, orbiting at 150m/s.

I believe that this graph will give people a much better idea of the problems with Amarr damage types than the one in the blog. Also, please note how often Amarr pilots need to change crystals if their target attempts to dictate range.

---

Originally by: CCP Abathur

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Edited by: Aramendel on 08/06/2007 13:45:15
I wanted to comment this as well.

Quote:

---

While many capital ships fit smartbombs specifically to counter Warp Disruption Probes, it is possible to keep them out of harmÆs way with careful placement.

---

The whole problem is that you CANNOT do this due to smartbombs having bigger ranges than "on paper" for capitals.

---

We did look into this. We ran an Avatar with seven 10km smartbombs on our test server and set an Interdictor orbiting it at 15km constantly dropping bubbles. The smartbombs had no effect.

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

The tempest only has 6 guns. Really you should be looking at three different graphs.[unhardened=omni tank, since all the damage is reduced equally]

1. All Gun dps against unhardened shield

2. All gun dps against unhardened armor

3. all gun dps against 1em/2inv hardened shield.

---

Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

The tempest only has 6 guns. Really you should be looking at three different graphs.[unhardened=omni tank, since all the damage is reduced equally]

1. All Gun dps against unhardened shield

2. All gun dps against unhardened armor

3. all gun dps against 1em/2inv hardened shield.

---

I agree with what you've said, but we might as well include the armour omni-tank if we're going to include the shield omni-tank:

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/KzIg/a_better_graph_omnitanked_shield.GIF
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/KzIg/a_better_graph_untanked_shield.GIF

Exactly the same as the graph in the previous post, except that the armour tank is replaced with untanked shield in one case and 2x Invulnerability Field II + Photon Scattering Field II in the other.

For the time being, let's try to compare the guns rather than the ships.

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

You guys dont have a clue why omni-tanks persist do you? Its because 2x eanm+1dc uses less CPU[and still does after the changes!] than 3x active hardeners and is better in about every way. 1x anp, 1x eanm, 1x DC still uses less CPU. The change doesnt modify the persistance of omni tanks it simply makes them 6% less strong. Amarr still end up doing terrible damage to shields. In order to change this, active hardners need to get a drastic reduction in CPU, down to 20 apiece, or even 15. Otherwise all you are doing is nerfing omni-tanks, not modifying the fitting considerations. not to mention, that because amarr ships have the least CPU in the game, and the least CPU after fitting their weapons in the game, they are hit worse by any increase in the CPU use of eanms

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Originally by: murder one

---

I'm increadulous as to how a team of four people can sit around, discuss all the possible options for balancing this game, and come up with the horribly malformed ideas that are your game changes. I've never seen any single group of people more incompetent in my life.

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Originally by: Hey You

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2 Dictors and 2 Sieging dreads = dead Titan Literally.

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Originally by: Hey You

---

After all this nerfs if u gave Titan ability to tank 15 ish Dreads i would say fine its balanced.

---

Originally by: Hey You

---

First good more tracking is always good. Second increase damage on Amarr not some Cpu requirements of Hardeners and EANMS i don't see any way this benefits Amarr in any way.

Second.

Titans - U cant jump out for 10 minutes is ********. Only thing u needed is slow cap recharge rate on them to prevent em from reaching cap to jump out in 2-3 Min's if they aren't nosed.

Bubbles and Dictor Bubbles now do pwn any super cap in regards with Smart bombs being nerfed to come from center point not hull of ship. which is also ******** because if u have ship with weapon like smartie, it would be placed on edges of hull. So dropping a bubble = Dead super Cap.

Remote DD removal - good idea. Show your titan on grid before u pull DD trigger.

DD Activation - Damage Delay interval increasing wtf? Only a ****** couldn't be aligned and warp of from DD the way it was.

Since all this nerfs hited super caps you have this situation:

2 Dictors and 2 Sieging dreads = dead Titan Literally.

After all this nerfs if u gave Titan ability to tank 15 ish Dreads i would say fine its balanced.

As for Amarrs again blah :) All you need is increase Damage of guns not mess around with something that works as it is and have nothing to do with Amarr.

---

Originally by: Hey You

---

bobbit said stuff

---

Originally by: Hey You

---

2 Dictors and 2 Sieging dreads = dead Titan Literally.

---

• Geddon right now is what you always wanted Abaddon to be 'tank or gank', I mean there is so little cpu on this ship that even with faction EANMs it can't fit a decent tank while sporting 2-3 heat sinks. Now it will be even harder and since community is a lot smarter (this time its not offensive as eariler) than you guys and adapts quickly to your changes Geddon pilots will just be called primary in every gang vs gang since it is a threat if it can shoot (dps is nice lets leave it at that) but has a nonexistent tank (hence 'why the hell shouldn't we pop it in 1 volley from our 3 person gang')


• Increased Amarr dps at ranges where combat just doesn't take place!!! How the **** am I to keep a typhoon at 15km+ range?!?!?! Domination Web (150m) webs inside 15km range!!! Or maybe I should take my advantage to a whole new level and fight them at 25km+ ranges???? This is all coming from your graph, I mean seriously I've seen some bad 'powerpointing' in my life but this graph could be prepared by bacteria!!


• I tested my new and shiny (25% more tracking) Geddon on SISI and when faced with Typhoon with one Tracking Disruptor I was just rendered harmless at my usual ranges so I closed my distance. At 1km with my enemy webbed by 5 heavy drones (thx to my oh so plentiful med slots) I still couldn't get above 10% hits. This is your better tracking initiative? Quite frankly tracking disruptors should be called Amarr Disruptors since we are the only race that is really affected by them (Megathrons come close so they don't give a **** about optimal, tracking hurts but not as bad thx to their bonus. Minmatar just laugh at reduced optimal), Amarr rely on both optimal range and tracking.

Originally by: CCP Sharkbait

---

we are screwed.

---

Originally by: Sparkius

---

Please don't forget about PvE! I've trained only Amarr, and I'd like to see a reason to fly an Amarrian battleship as opposed to something else (*cough*Raven*cough).

---

Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

---

Well, alright, since Goumindong asked politely
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/KzIg/a_better_graph_full_rack.GIF

The original graph (armour omnitank) but this time each ship has a full rack of guns fitted. Amarr still do quite badly.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/KzIg/a_better_graph_omnitanked_shield_full_rack.GIF

Amarr actually look fairly good vs. the shield omnitank. A pity that not so many people shield tank in pvp situations.

---

Originally by: Adril Alatar

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Originally by: Hey You

---

2 Dictors and 2 Sieging dreads = dead Titan Literally.

---

2 Dictors and 2 Battleships = dead Dreads.


A titan should not be a solo own mobile.
Have your support fleet with your titan and you kill the 2 dreads ;-)


@motherships:
Motherships should not be allowed in low sec. Or bubbles and dictors should be allowed in low sec ;-)

---

Originally by: Audri Fisher

---

How come i can fit a rohk with a full rack of 350 mm tech II's, and a full tech II tank, but I can't fit 7 named megabeams on a geddon w/o an rcu II?

---

Originally by: jeffb

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Originally by: Hey You

---

After all this nerfs if u gave Titan ability to tank 15 ish Dreads i would say fine its balanced.

---

Fitting a tank instead of cap recharger's might help.

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Originally by: Dal Thrax

---

Originally by: Hey You

---

Stuff

---

Didn't Molle have something to say re: how complaining about game mechanics makes you look?

Dal

---

Originally by: Khan Soriano

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Stuff[/*]
[/list]

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Originally by: Hey You

---

Titan isn't and never will be Solo Pwn mobile.

---

Originally by: Hey You

---

we will still DD ppl right left and center.

---

Originally by: Hey You

---

You need to start learning the difference between opinion and complaining.

---

Originally by: Hey You

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long whine about how its unfair that Titans can be killed. Seems to think solo pwnmobiles are good for the game.

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Originally by: Khan Soriano

---

I mean seriously I've seen some bad 'powerpointing' in my life but this graph could be prepared by bacteria!!

---

Originally by: Kar Strike

---

Edited by: Kar Strike on 08/06/2007 18:41:04

Originally by: Hey You

---

Titan isn't and never will be Solo Pwn mobile.

---

Originally by: Hey You

---

we will still DD ppl right left and center.

---

Also;

Originally by: Hey You

---

You need to start learning the difference between opinion and complaining.

---

You're right. Dismissing other's views due to their alliance tag (IRON, Goon, whatever) is truly objective opinion and not at all a lame effort to try and draw attention away from your poorly thought out sensationalist arguments.

---

Originally by: Kar Strike

---

Edited by: Kar Strike on 08/06/2007 18:41:04

Originally by: Hey You

---

Titan isn't and never will be Solo Pwn mobile.

---

Originally by: Hey You

---

we will still DD ppl right left and center.

---

Also;

Originally by: Hey You

---

You need to start learning the difference between opinion and complaining.

---

You're right. Dismissing other's views due to their alliance tag (IRON, Goon, whatever) is truly objective opinion and not at all a lame effort to try and draw attention away from your poorly thought out sensationalist arguments.

---

Originally by: Audri Fisher

---

How come i can fit a rohk with a full rack of 350 mm tech II's, and a full tech II tank, but I can't fit 7 named megabeams on a geddon w/o an rcu II?

---

Originally by: Hey You

---

But this wasnt opinion of Goons or Iron... This was opinion about nerf of super caps and "boost" of Amarrs. Why do you think it is all about you? It is not :)

---

Originally by: Hey You

---

but the again you are Iron so that explains it...

---

Originally by: Hey You

---

But then again as above u are Goon so that explains it too.

---

Originally by: Hey You

---

Have you ever flied Dread let alone Titan? If you did u would know that Titan Dies to a 2 Sieging Dreads no matter what his tank is.

---

Originally by: Elve Sorrow

---

Could you please explain your reasoning behind these changes to EANM? How is this adding the 'Oomph' to Amarr?

---

Originally by: Therem Harth

---

POS-based warp disruption structures must be able to scramble a supercapital. That is so common sense that it perhaps has eluded the attention of balancing :) I mean, a massive starbase structure dedicated to scrambling ship propulsion drives is SURELY more powerful and effective at it than some puny probes?

---

Originally by: Hey You

---

Since all this nerfs hited super caps you have this situation:

2 Dictors and 2 Sieging dreads = dead Titan Literally.

---

Originally by: MotherMoon

---

Something is wrong:/

---

Quote:

---

the Nerftastic Four

---

Quote:

---

The Minmatar carrier (Nidhoggur) and Mothership (Hel) had their reduction in Shield and Armor transfer duration changed to a bonus to Shield and Armor transfer amount. This makes them potentially quite capable logistic platforms, in particular in combination with the new Triage mode.

---

Originally by: Hey You

---

Originally by: Kar Strike

---

Edited by: Kar Strike on 08/06/2007 18:41:04

Originally by: Hey You

---

Titan isn't and never will be Solo Pwn mobile.

---

Originally by: Hey You

---

we will still DD ppl right left and center.

---

Also;

Originally by: Hey You

---

You need to start learning the difference between opinion and complaining.

---

You're right. Dismissing other's views due to their alliance tag (IRON, Goon, whatever) is truly objective opinion and not at all a lame effort to try and draw attention away from your poorly thought out sensationalist arguments.

---

But this wasnt opinion of Goons or Iron... This was opinion about nerf of super caps and "boost" of Amarrs. Why do you think it is all about you? It is not :)

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

Your graph is laughable, something is terribly wrong with it. Ingoring the fact that you are using 3 ships that are not gunboats to compare gun damage. You have the Apoc, with 8 guns, cant outdamage a typhoon with 4? It doesnt even get close to the 6 gun domi? And none of these graphs have drones figued in, or missiles? The Domi which also has a drone damage bonus? How about comparing the damages of the Megathron, Tempest/Maelstrom, and Armageddon? Then looking at the damage after an omni tank. THEN you might understand why a nerf to omni tanks wont help the issue.

---

Originally by: Tornoon 2

---

to the amarr: I don't know much about amarr so you are probably do need some boosts, just remember this when complaining about guns: you don't have to buy ammo or reload

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Originally by: MellaRinn

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

Your graph is laughable, something is terribly wrong with it. Ingoring the fact that you are using 3 ships that are not gunboats to compare gun damage. You have the Apoc, with 8 guns, cant outdamage a typhoon with 4? It doesnt even get close to the 6 gun domi? And none of these graphs have drones figued in, or missiles? The Domi which also has a drone damage bonus? How about comparing the damages of the Megathron, Tempest/Maelstrom, and Armageddon? Then looking at the damage after an omni tank. THEN you might understand why a nerf to omni tanks wont help the issue.

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your whole post is very good, however in this particular paragraph you are slightly wrong. they are comparing single-gun damage of those ships. That is why the dommy has so much more DPS than the apoc in there. They should however do what you are saying and use more graphs of overall fitting (multiple turrets filling all turret slots, etc) :)

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Originally by: Azerrad InExile

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Originally by: MotherMoon

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Something is wrong:/

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Your understanding of graphs?

The reason the Amarr graph is all bumpy is due to the low falloff and switching of crystals... so at longer ranges you end up doing more damage with longer range, lower damage crystals than with shorter range higher damage crystals. This results in those crazy bump things.

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Originally by: Barbarellas Daughter

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"Do you remember the Jiggly Wiggly guy?"
"Yes, his thread was hilarious!"
"Yeah, and i even posted in it!"

Originally by: Scatim Helicon

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Originally by: Hey You

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Since all this nerfs hited super caps you have this situation:

2 Dictors and 2 Sieging dreads = dead Titan Literally.

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I'm sure BoB will be all too willing to prove this by killing all hostile Titans they encounter within a few hours or days of the upcoming modifications. You guys being the best of the best elite PvP masters and everything.

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Originally by: Asuka Asami

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Originally by: Hey You

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Originally by: Kar Strike

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Edited by: Kar Strike on 08/06/2007 18:41:04

Originally by: Hey You

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Titan isn't and never will be Solo Pwn mobile.

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Originally by: Hey You

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we will still DD ppl right left and center.

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Also;

Originally by: Hey You

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You need to start learning the difference between opinion and complaining.

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You're right. Dismissing other's views due to their alliance tag (IRON, Goon, whatever) is truly objective opinion and not at all a lame effort to try and draw attention away from your poorly thought out sensationalist arguments.

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But this wasnt opinion of Goons or Iron... This was opinion about nerf of super caps and "boost" of Amarrs. Why do you think it is all about you? It is not :)

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I'd say something clever to make people laugh at you, but you're doing a good job yourself, so I'll just give you a


Supercaps; Good thing the remote DD is removed, however I'd loved to see more drastic changes to have taken place ie. complete removal of the DD or at least a much harsher penalty to using it (unmoveable for 10 mins after activation, possibility of actually targetting the DD and thereby destroying it). Personally I'd love to see Titans turn into a massive logistics platform with lots of nifty logistical stuff instead of solopwnmobiles where you hear the pilots scream on comms; "WAAAAPPP TO .....!!!", after which you arrive and everything is dead.

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Originally by: Hey You

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Edited by: Hey You on 09/06/2007 15:10:39

Originally by: Scatim Helicon

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Originally by: Hey You

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Since all this nerfs hited super caps you have this situation:

2 Dictors and 2 Sieging dreads = dead Titan Literally.

---

I'm sure BoB will be all too willing to prove this by killing all hostile Titans they encounter within a few hours or days of the upcoming modifications. You guys being the best of the best elite PvP masters and everything.

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But wait we are best. Because we actually killed 2 "not killable" things. So what is your point? We proved Titan is killable. Granted not trough normal ways, but it is :D

Originally by: Asuka Asami

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Originally by: Hey You

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Originally by: Kar Strike

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Edited by: Kar Strike on 08/06/2007 18:41:04

Originally by: Hey You

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Titan isn't and never will be Solo Pwn mobile.

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Originally by: Hey You

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we will still DD ppl right left and center.

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Also;

Originally by: Hey You

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You need to start learning the difference between opinion and complaining.

---

You're right. Dismissing other's views due to their alliance tag (IRON, Goon, whatever) is truly objective opinion and not at all a lame effort to try and draw attention away from your poorly thought out sensationalist arguments.

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But this wasnt opinion of Goons or Iron... This was opinion about nerf of super caps and "boost" of Amarrs. Why do you think it is all about you? It is not :)

---

I'd say something clever to make people laugh at you, but you're doing a good job yourself, so I'll just give you a


Supercaps; Good thing the remote DD is removed, however I'd loved to see more drastic changes to have taken place ie. complete removal of the DD or at least a much harsher penalty to using it (unmoveable for 10 mins after activation, possibility of actually targetting the DD and thereby destroying it). Personally I'd love to see Titans turn into a massive logistics platform with lots of nifty logistical stuff instead of solopwnmobiles where you hear the pilots scream on comms; "WAAAAPPP TO .....!!!", after which you arrive and everything is dead.

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Yes i am Absolutely sure you have all knowledge about anything. Simple amazing. Just by requesting Total removal of any offensive capabilities Titan have just shows how bitter you are.

Ok here is a crash course how to NOT get doomsdayed.

- Warp in, Align back.
- Use Intel, use Covert Ops
- Use Locator Agents
Even with all that dictor decloacks, bubbles your fleet - Cyno goes on titan appears:
Even with all above steps you are doomed if:
- You cry like baby
- Your FC is lost as to what to do
- Your fleet setup sucks
You are not doomed if:
- You MWD out of bubble moment cyno went up
- Your FC keeps his control on situation
- Once out of bubble (in 15 seconds, now 20 i am sure it is doable) you warp off.

Now to all people Whining about Titans: I have been on receiving end Lately a Lot! Hey Ebil Thug :)

- Fitting to tank a DD is R3tarded, since you basically destroyed any chance vs hostile fleet who is fitted for a sniping. Learn how to avoid DDs not Tank for them and make yourself pray for support fleets.

Ebil Thug fired over 20 DDs on us and he never killed more than 3-4 ships in them, 3-4 ships that were simply unlucky as i once was (Titan cynoed next to me and kicked me out of alignment while mwding away from bubble - Dead) or wasn't aligned.

So u see it must be your poor skills guys that gets you doomsday ed in such mass each time. Till you learn to actually be safe from it and instead whine here you will get DDed same as u was before. Hence u Suck.

Edit: On and i am looking forward to Amarr Boost not this "Boost"

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Quote:

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EANM and invulnerability fields should be like damage controls, you can only fit one.

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Originally by: blog

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Even though they are costly to produce, their capabilities far exceed their expense and is something we need to address. Warp Disruption Probes (launched by Interdictors) and Mobile Warp Disruptors will prevent capital ships from jumping or warping respectively.

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Originally by: Hllaxiu

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I'm surprised nobody else noticed this, but CCP are saying that after this patch:
Interdictor bubbles prevent super capitals from jumping.
Anchorable bubbles prevent super capitals from warping.

This is huge, assuming that they meant to put that word "respectively" in there.

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Originally by: Tuxford

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Combat in EVE was always supposed to be more about tactics and strategy rather than twitch movement. I know a lot of the community enjoy that style of gameplay but it just isn't EVE.
[...]
When going into a fight we want people to commit to a fight. That means when you go into a fight you are risking your ship or ships, not just warping in on anything and if you can't handle it you just warp off.

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Originally by: Oveur, Fanfest 2006

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Titans were never meant to be cost effective [...] people use the ships for what they want to use the ships [...] If people donÆt want to risk their assets like real men, let them.

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Originally by: Cpt Lysander

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Originally by: Tornoon 2

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to the amarr: I don't know much about amarr so you are probably do need some boosts, just remember this when complaining about guns: you don't have to buy ammo or reload

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Of course we have to buy ammo.
Have you recently checked the prizes for t2 crystals?
A single Scorch L crystal costs around 1,5 millions while a Conflag L crystal is sold for around 500k ( in Amarr Prime at least).
Thats the equivalent of roughly 2500/800 rounds of Barrage L amunition.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 08/06/2007 13:57:39

Originally by: maarud

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Originally by: Darpz

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another problem with amarr. no other race has a problem fitting a full rack of its biggest guns like amarr do.

Mega can fit 7 425s no sweat Tier2
Raven can fit 6 siege no problem Tier2
mael can fit 8 1400s Tier3
pretty sure a pest can fit 6 1400s without fitting mods Tier2 and no it can't

try fitting 8 tachs on a apoc or even a abbadon? yeah gl on that without fitting mods

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Pest needs PG Rigs to fit it

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It needs an RCU to fit an MWD, but it actualy fits 6x 1400 IIs with AWU 5.

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Originally by: Tarron Sarek

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Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 09/06/2007 16:28:29

Interesting blog.

Regarding the EANM change - people will always want to use the best possible option.
Therefore retaining the best option but making it harder, or impossible, to reach only makes players complain (see recent threads).
I think the better solution will be to make omni-tank less viable, not only fitting wise.

Quote:

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EANM and invulnerability fields should be like damage controls, you can only fit one.

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That's one idea. However I'm not certain if people will accept it.

Personally, I agree with Adril Alatar on the 17,5% resistance for the EANMII and 27,5% for the Invul.FieldII.
If you look at the numbers it is necessary. Single resist energized membranes gain 15,38% more resist bonus from T1 ro T2 (32,5 -> 37,5). EANM's gain 33,33%, jumping from 15% to 20% bonus. There is no problem with the tech1 modules, it's a tech2 issue. Applying the same 15,38% boost to EANM's gives 17,31% resists for tech2. Thus 17,5% would be a very adequate value, even rounded up a bit.


As for Amarr, I was about to write some things like damage increase and less energy consumption, but... after looking at the numbers, it isn't that easy.
How many of the complaining Amarr pilots have their ship skill at lvl3 or 4? How many at 5?
With ship lvl5 and cap use bonus at 50% the energy efficiency isn't that much different compared to hybrids. The jump from 4 to 5 is a big one and outright crucial for comparing lasers to hybrids.
Yes, it seems like laser cap usage could be reduced little bit, like 5-10%, but it isn't as obvious as it seems. 20% less would make large beam lasers more energy efficient than large railguns - with ship lvl5 that is.
I'd advice everybody to calculate damage per second and energy per dps for laser turrets before jumping to false conclusions or solutions.
Regarding Dps, the max. 25% dmg ship bonus of hybrids is pretty much included into laser stats right from the start.
That's right, large energy beams have higher base damage than large railguns.
In lower ship levels, laser base dps is higher but energy usage is a lot worse. At lvl5 it is rather even, while Mega Beams with dmg bonus or Tachyons have a better alpha. If they can't be fitted easily, that's a different issue and would call for a fitting fix, not a dmg boost.
NPC resistances, common PvP resistances and the absence of Caldari ships in PvP indeed seem to play a major role in the general 'lasers are inferior' perception.
Thus, at a second glance, the devs' call on EANM's doesn't seem such a bad move. To start with, that is. This whole thing is a balancing monster.

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Originally by: Justin Mathers

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Quote:

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Supercaps

We have also looked into the problems regarding Motherships and Titans. One of the main complaints is they are virtually indestructible if the pilot knows what he is doing. Even though they are costly to produce, their capabilities far exceed their expense and is something we need to address. Warp Disruption Probes (launched by Interdictors) and Mobile Warp Disruptors will prevent capital ships from jumping or warping respectively. While many capital ships fit smartbombs specifically to counter Warp Disruption Probes, it is possible to keep them out of harmÆs way with careful placement.

Doomsday devices have been revisited. The remote detonation capability through Cynosural Fields has been removed, now Titans must be present in the same area as their targets. Additionally, firing the doomsday devices prevents the Titan from using its jump drive for 10 minutes. This means the Titan must expose itself to enemy retribution after detonation.

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Ok, that's great for 0.0, but what about low-sec. A low-sec mothership is still indestructible as you cannot prevent it from jumping out of system. Unless I am mistaken, You can't drop dictor bubbles in low sec right?

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Originally by: Vyger

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If I lose connection while walking around a station will my avatar run off in a random direction and go hide in a corner?

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Originally by: Vyger

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If I lose connection while walking around a station will my avatar run off in a random direction and go hide in a corner?

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Originally by: Darpz

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another problem with amarr. no other race has a problem fitting a full rack of its biggest guns like amarr do.

Mega can fit 7 425s no sweat
Raven can fit 6 siege no problem
mael can fit 8 1400s
pretty sure a pest can fit 6 1400s without fitting mods

try fitting 8 tachs on a apoc or even a abbadon? yeah gl on that without fitting mods

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Originally by: CCP kieron

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If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs.

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.

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Originally by: Jim McGregor

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Edited by: Jim McGregor on 10/06/2007 13:21:13

The before and after graph looks exactly the same to me. I cant seem to see a difference.

Glad to see the minnie capitals getting some attention. Hopefully the change turns out to be meaningful. If someone flies them, I would like to hear what they think about the changes.

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Originally by: Haniblecter Teg

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They are looking at PER GUN damage. It doesnt matter that they have a dominix or megathron there, they have the same frickin damage per gun. Tracking is different thoguh.

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Originally by: B Glorious

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What the hell were you thinking when you made this thing, CCP?

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Originally by: CCP Fendahl

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I have been working with TomB et al. on the sideline on balancing for over 3 years and joined CCP about 2 months ago.

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Originally by: Xenea

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I am disappointed with the changes to Amarr, or lack thereof, in regards to actually addressing the problems already mentioned by many others in this thread.

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Quote:

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"Energized membranes in general have been needlessly hard to fit on frigates as they required 2mw power, so the requirement has been lowered to 1mw like most other "class-less" modules."

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Originally by: Sonorra Baki

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Edited by: Sonorra Baki on 11/06/2007 01:06:59
Regarding amarr. Its a bit like a white rabbit popping out of a hat going tadaaaaa, when the magician was actually trying to guess the right card.

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Originally by: Xenea

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I am disappointed with the changes to Amarr, or lack thereof, in regards to actually addressing the problems already mentioned by many others in this thread.

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Originally by: Adril Alatar

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Originally by: Goumindong

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You guys dont have a clue why omni-tanks persist do you? Its because 2x eanm+1dc uses less CPU[and still does after the changes!] than 3x active hardeners and is better in about every way. 1x anp, 1x eanm, 1x DC still uses less CPU. The change doesnt modify the persistance of omni tanks it simply makes them 6% less strong. Amarr still end up doing terrible damage to shields. In order to change this, active hardners need to get a drastic reduction in CPU, down to 20 apiece, or even 15. Otherwise all you are doing is nerfing omni-tanks, not modifying the fitting considerations. not to mention, that because amarr ships have the least CPU in the game, and the least CPU after fitting their weapons in the game, they are hit worse by any increase in the CPU use of eanms

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I dont agree with the reduction of cpu on active hardeners, but i agree that this is not enough.

Nerf EANM II from 20% to 17,5% resistance. This would give slightly lower resistances, which should be inline with the lower cpu usage of EANM. Hardeners would give better resistance with the tradeoff of more CPU and cap usage.

I would also agree that Invuls get there resistance nerfed because 3 Invul II give a lot more resistance than 3 Hardener.

According to QuickFit:
3 Hardeners (EM, Kinetic, Thermal): 55/60/73/64 Resistance
3 Invul II: 57,1/82,8/74,3/65,7

So 3 Invul II give better resists on the 3 hardened resistances. And they additionally give also explosive resistance.

With a nerf from 30% down to 27,5% it would give: 53,4/81,4/72/62,8
Slightly lower resistances on the 3 hardened and a lot better resistances on explosive.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Originally by: Hey You

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Have you ever flied Dread let alone Titan? If you did u would know that Titan Dies to a 2 Sieging Dreads no matter what his tank is.

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Unless he has support. You know, like one single carrier with one single remote rep and triage. As I said already. Into denial much?

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Originally by: Dr Aryandi

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Right until the 2 sieging dreads kill the carrier in 30 seconds then return to shooting the titan...

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Originally by: CCP kieron

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Graphs for the boost to Pulse Lasers (there *is* a difference in d/s),

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Originally by: Dr Aryandi

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Right until the 2 sieging dreads kill the carrier in 30 seconds then return to shooting the titan...

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Nice try. Lets shall run the numbers, something you obviously haven't done.

A revelation in max dps config (giga pulse), max skills and minor pimpage (3 TS heat sinks) does around 4500 dps. So 9000 dps for 2 dreads.

A caprecharger/CPR config to permarun a single remote rep leave a thanatos (which is after the chimera the 2nd worst carrier to do that) 4 low slots left. In there put 2 capital armor reps and 2 TS EAN. This gives you 63.7% average resists. Reducing the 9000 dread dps to 3267 dps.

One capital armor rep regens 426.7 armor/sec. Triage QUADRUPLES this to 1706.7 armor/sec. With 2 reps running thats 3413 rep/sec.

It can permatank them.

And, no, it won't run out of cap. 2 CPR2, 5 CR2, and 3 t1 CCC -> 506 cap/sec peak recharge. A capital remote armor with skill lvl 4 needs on sisi under triage 432 cap/sec, so it can comfortable run it and tank 7 heavy nosses. 2 CAR need under triage 426.7 cap/sec.

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Originally by: Cosmo Raata

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blah blah blah blah blah blah

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Originally by: Cosmo Raata

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Dear CCP,
I have played EvE for almost 4 years now, I have seen the rise and fall of many races through boost & nerf alike....snip

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Originally by: Dr Aryandi

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Invul fields eat a lot of cap.

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Originally by: Cosmo Raata

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a) Cap Bonus - Change the "10% reduction in Energy Turret capacitor use" to "30-60% reduction in Energy Turret capacitor use". This becomes a real bonus and allows no need to increase cap to amarr ships to give them "oommph". They will tank well because they wont cap out, they will have more cap to spare than any other race, thus giving them the role they need. It may seem extreme, but its a fix that will work across the board.

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Originally by: Cosmo Raata

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b) Retribution - Remove Utility high, add 1 med slot.

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Originally by: Cosmo Raata

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c) Khanid ships
...
d) Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane - CPU reduction changes nothing. Make them like Damage Controls and allow ships to fit only one. Benefits are obvious as outlined by CCP in this very blog.
...
2) Nosferatu...The answer is clear, limit amount of Nos allowed on ships (NOS POINTS)...

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Originally by: El'essar Viocragh

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Originally by: Dr Aryandi

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Invul fields eat a lot of cap.

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So does an armor repper. What is the point you are trying to make? Shield boosters are cap efficient and our omni-hardener uses cap too, while armor repairer use a lot more cap, don't boost as much and the get a passive omni resistance module! zomgwtfbbq.

You've got to be kidding.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Originally by: Dr Aryandi

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Right until the 2 sieging dreads kill the carrier in 30 seconds then return to shooting the titan...

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Nice try. Lets shall run the numbers, something you obviously haven't done.

A revelation in max dps config (giga pulse), max skills and minor pimpage (3 TS heat sinks) does around 4500 dps. So 9000 dps for 2 dreads.

A caprecharger/CPR config to permarun a single remote rep leave a thanatos (which is after the chimera the 2nd worst carrier to do that) 4 low slots left. In there put 2 capital armor reps and 2 TS EAN. This gives you 63.7% average resists. Reducing the 9000 dread dps to 3267 dps.

One capital armor rep regens 426.7 armor/sec. Triage QUADRUPLES this to 1706.7 armor/sec. With 2 reps running thats 3413 rep/sec.

It can permatank them.

And, no, it won't run out of cap. 2 CPR2, 5 CR2, and 3 t1 CCC -> 506 cap/sec peak recharge. A capital remote armor with skill lvl 4 needs on sisi under triage 432 cap/sec, so it can comfortable run it and tank 7 heavy nosses. 2 CAR need under triage 426.7 cap/sec.

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Originally by: Dr Aryandi

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Originally by: El'essar Viocragh

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Originally by: Dr Aryandi

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Invul fields eat a lot of cap.

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So does an armor repper. What is the point you are trying to make? Shield boosters are cap efficient and our omni-hardener uses cap too, while armor repairer use a lot more cap, don't boost as much and the get a passive omni resistance module! zomgwtfbbq.

You've got to be kidding.

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There is a real and distinct disadvantage to using invul fields over specific hardeners (aside from the increased stacking penalty). In a battleship its not so bad but a frigate cannot run an invul field and do anything else, cruiser sized ships struggle, and I wouldn't like to run more than one.

Energized adaptive nanos are passive modules.


And I really suggest you do the math on shield vs armour tanking before you make a fool of yourself. There are advantages both ways.

The main problem with shield tanking of course is that all your ewar and tackling modules are mid slots...so it is a pain to use in PvP...

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Originally by: Dr Aryandi

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Try that vs 4 dreads...and suddenly the carrier is going down. Especially since I'm sure I read somewhere that in triage mode you can't be remote repped.

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Originally by: Cosmos Elf

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I feel sorry for all of the titan pilots. After this nerf they will be nothing more than glorified freighter taxis.

It took all of those years of training to become a taxi driver?!

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Originally by: Shinigami

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Originally by: Cosmos Elf

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I feel sorry for all of the titan pilots. After this nerf they will be nothing more than glorified freighter taxis.

It took all of those years of training to become a taxi driver?!

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Here is a fitting new look for the titan's new role.

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