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Vladt
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Posted - 2007.06.12 12:45:00 -
[1]
I just wanne ask the community , maybe they have an explanation for the question I havent found yet
Why is it that I have to skill for T2 Large Rail Spec 61 !! Days ( as of the prerequested skills ) and T2 Torpedos just 16 days ( as there are no prerequested skills like T2 heavies )
I just dont get the point , T2 Torp also have a T2 Ammu for every dmg Typ and there is a DMG and Speed Typ Torp avaible .. so totals it 8 ! T2 Ammus for the purose
the Turret just have 2 no matter if you are Caldari, Gallente , Minmatar or Amar
So it really makes not to much sense but maby someone can shed some light on my headegg
Regards
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Slash Harnet
Minmatar
Industrial Services INC
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Posted - 2007.06.12 12:52:00 -
[2]
It is one of the dumbest things of all times. I've been hoping they drop the prerequisites on turrets. There are already enough time sinks IMO.
signature removed ... Pirlouit
I finally got my sig nerfed once, I feel like a forum warrior! |
Tobias Sjodin
Caldari
Ore Mongers
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.06.12 12:53:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Tobias Sjodin on 12/06/2007 12:52:53
T2 Rails (and most gunnery skills) have prerequisites that add a lot of dps. To get similar dps with torpedoes you need a lot of secondary skills. Also, with t2 large rails you get t2 med rails and t2 small rails as a bonus. (Torpedoes only gives you the opportunity to use torpedoes, nothing else).
- Recruitment open again-
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Buraken v2
Spontaneous Defenestration
Coalition of Carebear Killers
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Posted - 2007.06.12 12:53:00 -
[4]
You just opened up a can of worms buddy.
 Quote:
Mail from: Houvire Takaerne
2006.06.06 19:25
Our research has been fruity. If you're interested, I believe I have found what might be a banana in the corner of my office draw.
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Callthetruth
Caldari
Logical Logtistics
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Posted - 2007.06.12 13:22:00 -
[5]
can of wiggly worms
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Haffrage
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.06.12 13:27:00 -
[6]
Holy CRAP, do you mean to inform me that missiles are NOT identical to turrets in every way? This is impossible 
What about T2 drones?
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Tech 2 Tier 2 Battlecruisers |
Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
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Posted - 2007.06.12 13:32:00 -
[7]
Man this horse is so dead that it really is not surprising that so many canfuls of worms are crawling around now...
But I will beat it some more. Really, the med and small spec skills required for T2 large guns are a bummer. They are of zero use for people who only fly BS (and there are more than enough of those), so are indeed only a time sink. The support skill reqs are fine and should be on torps too imho, but the lower class weapons at 5 is over the top.
Not that there is any fair way to change it now though. The child has long since drowned in the well...
Thank you SkyFlyer!
There is no 'n' in tur |
umop 3pisdn
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.06.12 13:33:00 -
[8]
Try Getting T2 heavy drones.... Considering how little love is directed toward drones by CCP the time scale is kinda whacked.
Total time for large guns for me is roughly 150 days
While to go from no missle skills to t2 torps and cruise missles would be less than 70
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Hugh Ruka
Caldari
Free Traders
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Posted - 2007.06.12 13:34:00 -
[9]
fresh out of trial ? I can't look up your char age ingame (no client at work), but the stupidity of your question is about right ...
Look at what you get when you can use t2 rails and compare with t2 torps. You are wastly more efficient with the rails.
And don't BS about ammo types, you have 2 torp launcher types (t1, t2) while you have 3xt1 rails and 3xt2 rails. If you can't fit a full rack of t2 torps, you are screwed. if you can't fit a full rack of 425s, you use 350s ...
Rails and missiles are different, get use to that concept.
Originally by: JP Beauregard
The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls.... 
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Brodde Dim
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Posted - 2007.06.12 13:37:00 -
[10]
Nice to see a caldari pilot with the headegg in the right place, not taking the easy route.
And yes, that is how it works. Missiles really good when you are new, guns can be better when you finally have the skills for them...
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Fortis Rosa
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Posted - 2007.06.12 13:42:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
fresh out of trial ? I can't look up your char age ingame (no client at work), but the stupidity of your question is about right ...
Look at what you get when you can use t2 rails and compare with t2 torps. You are wastly more efficient with the rails.
And don't BS about ammo types, you have 2 torp launcher types (t1, t2) while you have 3xt1 rails and 3xt2 rails. If you can't fit a full rack of t2 torps, you are screwed. if you can't fit a full rack of 425s, you use 350s ...
Rails and missiles are different, get use to that concept.
wts clue for this guy
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Jin Entres
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.06.12 13:50:00 -
[12]
Dug up from random post about the subject:
Skills and ranks
Hybrids
capital Hybrid turret 7
controlled bursts 2
gunnery 1
large railgun specialization 8
large blaster specialization 8
Large Hybrid Turret 5
medium railgun specialization 5
medium blaster specialization 5
Med Hybrid turret 3
motion prediction 5
rapid firing 2
sharpshooter 2
small railgun specialization 3
small blaster specialization 3
Small hybrid turret 1
surgical strike 4
trajectory analysis 5
17 skills = 69 ranks
Missiles
citadel torpedoes 7
cruise missile specialization 8
cruise missiles 5
fof missiles 3
guided missile precision 5
heavy missile specialization 5
heavy missiles 3
missile bombardment 2
missile launcher operation 1
missile projection 4
rapid launch 2
rocket specialization 3
rockets 1
standard missile specialization 3
standard missiles 2
target navigation prediction 2
torpedo specialization 8
torpedoes 4
warhead upgrades 5
Heavy assault Missiles 3
Heavy assault Missiles Specialization 5
21 skills = 81 ranks
Easier access, longer total training. That's it.
---
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Veritas Falx
Umbra Congregatio
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.06.12 13:51:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Fortis Rosa
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
fresh out of trial ? I can't look up your char age ingame (no client at work), but the stupidity of your question is about right ...
Look at what you get when you can use t2 rails and compare with t2 torps. You are wastly more efficient with the rails.
And don't BS about ammo types, you have 2 torp launcher types (t1, t2) while you have 3xt1 rails and 3xt2 rails. If you can't fit a full rack of t2 torps, you are screwed. if you can't fit a full rack of 425s, you use 350s ...
Rails and missiles are different, get use to that concept.
wts clue for this guy
He is partially right. Yes you could fit the smaller sub sizes but that completely changes roles and set-ups alot of the time.
Also if you notice each skill, but the smaller spec skills, for t2 large turrets add damage. And most of the time even if you have t2 large ammo you will still flying something smaller time to time.
People want these huge ownage ships as soon as they get out of the trial. That isn't the case. There are plenty of pwnage ships on the way. A good BC can easier defeat a crappy BS, and pretty much all good t2 cruisers could kill or disable a decent bs.
Recon anyone? And honestly in pvp not everyone flies bs's. Get over it and go tackle or use some sort of EWar.
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Haffrage
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.06.12 14:04:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Veritas Falx
What the hell does that have to do with anything? Noone max's out all their gun or missile skills at to 5. Also there are things like fof missiles in there which few people train for.
EDIT: I guess some people do, but few actually do.
When you're talking caps and long time players, yeah, lots of people start taking things like Surgical Strike and Warhead Upgrades to V. Rapid Firing/Launch to V is a no brainer, just rank 2's for fairly good increases in dps. You'd be surprised just how many people I know that have HAS, AS, and CS skills to V 
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Tech 2 Tier 2 Battlecruisers |
Chrysalis D'lilth
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Posted - 2007.06.12 14:09:00 -
[15]
Not to mention in almost any pvp situation, Railguns/Blasters > Torpedos.
As for PvE, i very much doubt you'll be using T2 torps anyway.
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Exlegion
KnightRaven Research
KnightRaven Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.12 14:10:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Exlegion on 12/06/2007 14:13:59
Support skills for gunnery tend to have lower ranks and apply to ALL turret types while missile support skills tend to have higher ranks and only apply to missile skills.
For guns:
Controlled Bursts - R2
Motion Predition - R2
Rapid Fire - R2
Sharpshooter - R2
Surgical Strike - R4
Trajectory Analysis - R5
For missiles:
Guided Missile Precision - R5 (and does not help torpedoes)
Missile Bombardment - R2
Missile Projection - R4
Rapid Launch - R2
Target Navigation Prediction - R2
Warhead Upgrades - R5
Weapon Upgrades, Advanced Weapon Upgrades, and Target Painting skills are universal and apply the same to all weapon types so I didn't include them. As you can see, it's easy to use missiles but hard to master them. It's harder to use guns but a little easier to master them, not to mention you can cross-train between them.
They are different flavors (apples and oranges) and depending on what you want/need they each have their benefits and drawbacks.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru |
Beef Hardslab
The 5 Amigo's LLC.
NxT LeveL
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Posted - 2007.06.12 14:20:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Edited by: Tobias Sjodin on 12/06/2007 12:52:53
T2 Rails (and most gunnery skills) have prerequisites that add a lot of dps. To get similar dps with torpedoes you need a lot of secondary skills. Also, with t2 large rails you get t2 med rails and t2 small rails as a bonus. (Torpedoes only gives you the opportunity to use torpedoes, nothing else).
Bonus? LMAO
People love to argue about this discrepancy, but to me it's pretty simple - I've heard since I started playing that you should specialize in this game if you want to compete, especially if you are a newer character. So let's say I want to specialize in battleships - to get my T2 guns, I have to first get all other sizes of T2 guns. How is that specialization again?
Why there should be a breathalyzer to login to Eve:
Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii
Podding my own alt in a gatecamp while drunk, he was carrying a hauler full of tech II goods, Oops.
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DeckardIRL
Bombshell Cartel
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Posted - 2007.06.12 14:34:00 -
[18]
I got T2 Cruise over a year ago.... it will be 10 days now that I will finally have T2 large rails and then another 10 days for blasters.. I fly a hac/recon so t2 meds are a must and an inty/as for t2 smalls. But pit a T2 torp raven against a T2 blaster Mega and the Mega should win... thats another debate maybe...
Deck
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Janu Hull
Caldari
Order of Z Industries
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Posted - 2007.06.12 14:37:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Beef Hardslab
People love to argue about this discrepancy, but to me it's pretty simple - I've heard since I started playing that you should specialize in this game if you want to compete, especially if you are a newer character. So let's say I want to specialize in battleships - to get my T2 guns, I have to first get all other sizes of T2 guns. How is that specialization again?
Something I've been thinking about for 0.0 ratting/anti-camp PvP dual mode on a Rokh is fitting up a full rack of 250mm Railgun IIs with antimatter ammo...
Kinda like a Ferox from Hell. Something to tide me over until I'm done with the rest of the T2 Large skills.
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Ryas Nia
Minmatar
Stormriders
Fimbulwinter
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Posted - 2007.06.12 15:16:00 -
[20]
also keep in mind that missiles are a secondary skill for lots of races, so requiring heavy missiles spec 4 before getting cruise spec would add HUGE amounts of training time to minmatar, and some gallente.
Recruiting Terrorists |
Paula Roscarai
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.06.12 15:20:00 -
[21]
this wont change for the simply reason that thousands of players already had to go through the long training times. It SHOULD take you at least two months to get large t2 bs guns. If you specialize, by the time you are able to use large t2 guns you might actually be able to afford them too.
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Cadien Cybernetics
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Posted - 2007.06.12 15:22:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
fresh out of trial ? I can't look up your char age ingame (no client at work), but the stupidity of your question is about right ...
So much for respecting other posters. May I remind you of the forum rules?
Quote:
Look at what you get when you can use t2 rails and compare with t2 torps. You are wastly more efficient with the rails.
Oh, is that so? Why do people use the Raven for PvE? Blanket statements ftl.
_________________________________
- Balance is power, guard it well.. - |
Beef Hardslab
The 5 Amigo's LLC.
NxT LeveL
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Posted - 2007.06.12 15:32:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Paula Roscarai
this wont change for the simply reason that thousands of players already had to go through the long training times. It SHOULD take you at least two months to get large t2 bs guns. If you specialize, by the time you are able to use large t2 guns you might actually be able to afford them too.
LOL speak for yourself, I've been able to afford all but capital ships for months now.
Why there should be a breathalyzer to login to Eve:
Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii
Podding my own alt in a gatecamp while drunk, he was carrying a hauler full of tech II goods, Oops.
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Vitrael
Stormriders
Fimbulwinter
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Posted - 2007.06.12 15:33:00 -
[24]
I believe the reason for this is that missiles were meant to be a low SP secondary weapon system. It was just not taken into account exactly how short a time it would be for a Caldari pilot to get phenomenal with cruise missiles. Of course one might argue, if you train straight to t2 cruise missiles you still don't have all those lovely smaller weapons. If you train straight through to t2 large hybrids / projectiles then you are totally versed in all gunnery skills.
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Janu Hull
Caldari
Order of Z Industries
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Posted - 2007.06.12 15:34:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Oh, is that so? Why do people use the Raven for PvE? Blanket statements ftl.
Ravens are easier, not more efficient.
Even though my Rokh's rails don't do the consistent damage that Raven does, by the time the second volley of the Raven's missiles hit the target, I've shot it three times with two more weapons. Some of my shots may miss, but almost all battlecruiser and battleship class NPCs mount defender missiles that shoot down one or two of your inbound shots.
Every six missiles I shoot from a Raven at a Sansha battleship, only 4 or 5 actually land. With a Rokh, I shoot 6 railguns at them (I mount a salvager and t-beam), and 4 or 5 of them will actually hit at any given time, and my rate of fire is easily 33-50% faster than the Raven's.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.12 15:46:00 -
[26]
Apparently, it was a dev***** up back in the day. I remember it coming up back during the RMR discussions- apparently they simply forgot to link up the prereq tree back when they launched it, and by the time they realised they decided it was too late to be mucking around with it.
In other words, its a free and lucky bonus to Torps over Turrets. Count themselves lucky, and move on.
--------
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Tobias Sjodin
Caldari
Ore Mongers
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.06.12 16:42:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Patch86
Apparently, it was a dev***** up back in the day. I remember it coming up back during the RMR discussions- apparently they simply forgot to link up the prereq tree back when they launched it, and by the time they realised they decided it was too late to be mucking around with it.
In other words, its a free and lucky bonus to Torps over Turrets. Count themselves lucky, and move on.
With CCP's words: "Working as intended" ;)
- Recruitment open again-
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Apertotes
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.06.12 17:39:00 -
[28]
i believe the thing is that there are 5 different weapon systems: Drones, Missiles, Hybrids, Lasers and Projectiles.
But three of those share secondary skills, which is a huge bonus when crosstraining races. that is why i think T2 turrets have higher skill pre-reqs than drones or missiles.
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DHB WildCat
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2007.06.12 18:02:00 -
[29]
Because T2 torps suck now, and are completely worthless.... thats why
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Interval
The Triad Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.12 18:18:00 -
[30]
Doesn't matter really. You will be forced to get the smaller weapons anyway. That's how it happened to me. I trained the T2 missles backward. Torps-Cruise->Heavy->Light.
Right now I don't really care. I have T2 guns and T2 missles so you can change it all you want.
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Slash Harnet
Minmatar
Industrial Services INC
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Posted - 2007.06.12 18:26:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Not that there is any fair way to change it now though. The child has long since drowned in the well...
I don't know, it's not like the skill would go away. Remember when they lowered the requirements for the Advanced Learning skills?
signature removed ... Pirlouit
I finally got my sig nerfed once, I feel like a forum warrior! |
Namingway
Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters
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Posted - 2007.06.13 03:09:00 -
[32]
Originally by: umop 3pisdn
Try Getting T2 heavy drones.... Considering how little love is directed toward drones by CCP the time scale is kinda whacked.
Total time for large guns for me is roughly 150 days
While to go from no missle skills to t2 torps and cruise missles would be less than 70
Now train for T2 in every missile.
Originally by: CCP kieron
If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs.
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Namingway
Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters
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Posted - 2007.06.13 03:13:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Exlegion
Edited by: Exlegion on 12/06/2007 14:13:59
Support skills for gunnery tend to have lower ranks and apply to ALL turret types while missile support skills tend to have higher ranks and only apply to missile skills.
For guns:
Controlled Bursts - R2
Motion Predition - R2
Rapid Fire - R2
Sharpshooter - R2
Surgical Strike - R4
Trajectory Analysis - R5
For missiles:
Guided Missile Precision - R5 (and does not help torpedoes)
Missile Bombardment - R2
Missile Projection - R4
Rapid Launch - R2
Target Navigation Prediction - R2
Warhead Upgrades - R5
Weapon Upgrades, Advanced Weapon Upgrades, and Target Painting skills are universal and apply the same to all weapon types so I didn't include them. As you can see, it's easy to use missiles but hard to master them. It's harder to use guns but a little easier to master them, not to mention you can cross-train between them.
They are different flavors (apples and oranges) and depending on what you want/need they each have their benefits and drawbacks.
Guided Missile Precision AND Target Nav prediction do not work for ANY shortrange missile. Rockets, assault missiles, Torps and citadels do not get any benefit from those two skills.
Originally by: CCP kieron
If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs.
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Kylar Renpurs
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Posted - 2007.06.13 03:35:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Namingway
Guided Missile Precision AND Target Nav prediction do not work for ANY shortrange missile. Rockets, assault missiles, Torps and citadels do not get any benefit from those two skills.
QFT.
The reason why turrets take so much longer to train is because the supporting skills cover 9 different weapon families (turrets, lasers, hybrids, small medium and large), as opposed to missile skills covering wahey, missiles. And then yeah, rockets, heavy assault missiles and torps miss out on the fun support skills.
And want one more reason? My Torp does 600 damage every 8 seconds. My corpie with his *
MEDIUM* laser was getting 700dmg wreckings every 4 seconds
Improve Market Competition! |
William Hamilton
Caldari
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS....
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.06.13 04:24:00 -
[35]
Guns are a ships main weapons, missiles, like drones and ewar, are secondary systems.
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Gorken
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.06.13 04:52:00 -
[36]
Originally by: William Hamilton
Guns are a ships main weapons, missiles, like drones and ewar, are secondary systems.
Depends on the ship.
http://www.infowars.com/print/Secret_societies/bush_Sab_photo.htm |
aUTOKILL
Slacker Industries
Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.06.13 05:01:00 -
[37]
I think it's perty cool. If i want t2 larges i also want t2 meds and smalls for when i fly other ships. unlike missiles in witch you have to train all of em.
~~~~~~
New Sig Coming Soon!
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R3dSh1ft
Dark Knights of Deneb
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.06.13 05:48:00 -
[38]
Each type of launcher (rocket, standard, heavy, heavy assault, cruise, siege) is seen as a separate weapon system, not of the same "family" as with gunnery which are the same but just of different sizes for a given race (hybrid, projectile or laser). If you look at the stats of the different missiles you can see they do not progress from rocket -> torpedo in an orderly linear fasion. This means a longer training time if you want to use the T2 variants of all the missile systems.
Also, the support skills for missiles are of a higher rank to their gunnery equivalents and yield a smaller bonus in general (warhead upgrades is higher rank than surgical strike, yet the damage multiplier from it is smaller).
_________________________________________________________
DKOD - an awesome synchronised killing machine |
Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2007.06.13 06:04:00 -
[39]
CCP should concentrate on other things than this minor issue.
---
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
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Hugh Ruka
Caldari
Free Traders
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Posted - 2007.06.13 06:20:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
fresh out of trial ? I can't look up your char age ingame (no client at work), but the stupidity of your question is about right ...
So much for respecting other posters. May I remind you of the forum rules?
Do you have a better word for it ? Naive would not come close.
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Quote:
Look at what you get when you can use t2 rails and compare with t2 torps. You are wastly more efficient with the rails.
Oh, is that so? Why do people use the Raven for PvE? Blanket statements ftl.
Why do people NOT use Ravens for PvP ? Guess what ...
Originally by: JP Beauregard
The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
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Christopher Scott
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.06.13 06:58:00 -
[41]
Missiles take less time to train to Tech II because they are a supportive weapon.
Caldari are the only race that seriously uses missiles as a primary weapon, and it is ONLY on some ships. Many Caldari ships are railboats with missile hardpoints for support. So are many Minmitar ships, and even a few Gallente/Amarr ones.
If you increased the training time on missiles to be equal to turrets, then you will severely **** over Caldari and Minmitar, who rely on both to max out their weapon slots.
Again, you want to nerf the majority of Caldari and Minmitar ships, only to balance a select few. It is really a dumb thing to do.
Originally by: DB Preacher
I may be a muppet on these forums and wind peeps up massively but what is going on here is waaaaay over the edge of reasonable morality.
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Noluck Ned
FATAL REVELATIONS
FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.13 07:01:00 -
[42]
And then the happy day finally arrived.
As a Gallente pilot I am now in possession of Gal BS 5
T2 Heavy Rails and T2 Blasters as well as T2 heavy Drones(Ogres, 2 days from Berserker II's) and I can fit a good solid T2 armor tank.
Man that felt soooo gooood.
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Malcanis
High4Life
Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.13 07:08:00 -
[43]
Originally by: William Hamilton
Guns are a ships main weapons, missiles, like drones and ewar, are secondary systems.
Tell that to a Kestrel/Caracal/Drake pilot...
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Butter Dog
The Littlest Hobos
Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.06.13 07:54:00 -
[44]
To be fair, T2 turrets are superior in pretty much every way to T2 missiles - mainly for the increased DPS at close range, and the instant damage at long range.
The only thing they are not better at, is NPCing. But when it comes to PvP, T2 turrets are well worth the training time.
Anyway, if you think thats depressing, train T2 large turrets AND T2 heavy drones. Its enough to make you weep. But worth it in the end.
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signature removed - please do not discuss moderation in your signature graphic - Jacques([email protected])
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
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Posted - 2007.06.13 08:24:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Butter Dog
To be fair, T2 turrets are superior in pretty much every way to T2 missiles - mainly for the increased DPS at close range, and the instant damage at long range.
The only thing they are not better at, is NPCing. But when it comes to PvP, T2 turrets are well worth the training time.
Anyway, if you think thats depressing, train T2 large turrets AND T2 heavy drones. Its enough to make you weep. But worth it in the end.
Sad thing is, T2 light and med drones ARE useful for a BS pilot, yet are not even required to train T2 heavies. While T2 small and med guns are worthless for a BS pilot, yet they ARE required...
It just seems so wrong. Not that I mind the long training time, but it would feel a lot more right if large gun skills were a rank or three higher, and we did NOT have to train the small and med crap too...
I know this would be counterproductive since you would gain less for the same training time, but it would sit better with me anyway.
Thank you SkyFlyer!
There is no 'n' in tur |
Gungankllr
Caldari
STK Scientific
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.06.13 08:28:00 -
[46]
Well, turrets get high range or high damage.
Missiles (torps) get high range or high damage, but the sig radius on the damage blows.
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Ashaz
Mindstar Technology
United Confederation of Corporations
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Posted - 2007.06.13 08:40:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Edited by: Tobias Sjodin on 12/06/2007 12:52:53
T2 Rails (and most gunnery skills) have prerequisites that add a lot of dps. To get similar dps with torpedoes you need a lot of secondary skills. Also, with t2 large rails you get t2 med rails and t2 small rails as a bonus. (Torpedoes only gives you the opportunity to use torpedoes, nothing else).
No offence, but that was a realy dumb comparison.
You don't get the small and meds as a bonus. you are FORCED to train them to get the large ones.
If you wanted small and heavy missiles you could just as easily train them too.
It still doesn't explain the 16 vs 61 day difference.
and the dps has been argued and compared in numerous threads already.
iDrone |
Gabriel Karade
Celtic Anarchy
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.06.13 08:48:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Veritas Falx
What the hell does that have to do with anything? Noone max's out all their gun or missile skills at to 5. Also there are things like fof missiles in there which few people train for.
EDIT: I guess some people do, but few actually do.
*waves* Herrroo 
It may seem like a waste, but all those '2% here', '5% here', '3% here' really start to add up, so it does give you an edge, though I suppose there is an e-wang element to it too...
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Video - 'War-Machine' |
Ashaz
Mindstar Technology
United Confederation of Corporations
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Posted - 2007.06.13 08:57:00 -
[49]
Quote:
And want one more reason? My Torp does 600 damage every 8 seconds. My corpie with his *
MEDIUM* laser was getting 700dmg wreckings every 4 seconds
heh. good point realy.
Once you've spent all that time training, you do become better then the quick and easy path would make you.
Altho I do doubt he was wreckig every 4 seconds.
/me currently crosstraining the legendary gimped amarr 
iDrone |
Lucy Skylancer
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Posted - 2007.06.13 09:29:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Lucy Skylancer on 13/06/2007 09:28:45
Tech-2 large gun training was that way long before tech-2 launchers and advanced missile skills existed. So I'd say people should be happy that they get the tech-2 missiles easier (maybe because of a mistake).
Personally I've trained for Minmatar as a newbie, but Minmatar battleships with low skillpoints didn't cut it in PvE, on the other hand there was the Raven that owned everything with torps at that time with minimum skillpoints.
I adapted invested a 2 or 3 weeks in Caldari and was fine.
Then the advanced missile skills came out and the Raven actually needed some skillpoints to perform good again, so I trained the new missile skills up and then Caldari BS to 5. And the Raven was fine again.
Later the Rokh was announced, I wanted to use it, so I trained rails from zero to tech-2 large rails.
At that point the time investment seemed normal for me. I've trained my other Minnie already to tech-2 projectiles a bit earlier and then for dreads, so waiting several weeks for lvl.5 skills to finish was normal.
If I see a skill that takes 3-4 weeks to level 5, I think: 'Oh, only 3-4 weeks, cool.' 
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Tobias Sjodin
Caldari
Ore Mongers
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.06.13 10:40:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Ashaz
No offence, but that was a realy dumb comparison.
You don't get the small and meds as a bonus. you are FORCED to train them to get the large ones.
If you wanted small and heavy missiles you could just as easily train them too.
It still doesn't explain the 16 vs 61 day difference.
and the dps has been argued and compared in numerous threads already.
None taken.
For the missiles to be anywhere near effective you need to train secondary skills. The word is: DIFFERENT. When you're up to those large guns, you can use t2 weapons for your frigs, cruisers, and battleship, and quite effectively too.
Once the guy training torps are done, he can spit out torpedoes that take 20 seconds to reach the target and do horrible dps. And that's all.
I'll gladly trade, let's change so your t2 large rails go slow and dumb, but can do multiple damage types, and I'll train a bit more and have insta-dps but only thermal/kinetic. Gladly. I'm afraid you would at the same time lose your damage bonuses on your battleships, and instead have your slow ass hunks of metal go FURTHER! Yes! That's right folks, you can now wait for 30 seconds for the torpedo to arrive at destination instead of 20! But travel a longer distance. ;)
Again, different types of weaponry, key word: DIFFERENT. You're stupid to even bother with comparing them in the end, no offense.
- Recruitment open again-
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Kather
Turbulent
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Posted - 2007.06.13 10:57:00 -
[52]
i spent god knows how long training large lasers to tech 2. as a result i can sit in my ship and feel that i've put the time into being able to fly it properly.
noobs in battleships is one thing, noobs in well fitted battleships is another (although they wont have the support skills)
conversely, my alt has just finished training for tech 2 torps. my sense of excitement when i finally achieved this was no-where near as great as when i got t2 large turrets.
missiles are primarily a secondary weapon. as are drones. a few ships having them as a main weapon makes those ships different instead of the weapon system being normal. as a secondary weapons i like the fact that missiles are easier to train into one particular area
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Long live the Evil Proctologists! |
Jake Stevens
The League of Legitimate Nigerian Businessmen
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Posted - 2007.06.13 11:02:00 -
[53]
Not sure if was said yet but, T2 torps suck so who cares
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Dave White
coracao ardente
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.06.13 11:10:00 -
[54]
Wormy.
CORA. Killboard
Personal Killboard |
Bentula
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Posted - 2007.06.13 14:07:00 -
[55]
Imho this isnt wormy, its cheesy.
How many ships can you fully fit with T2 weapons after training for large t2 rails and blasters? Just counting from BC size up:
Brutix, myrmidon, ferox, domi, megathron, rokh, hyperion, astarte, eos
How many ships can you fully t2 fit after training for T2 torps?
Raven
Whoopdedoo, its not taking as long to train for the primary weaponsystem of a single ship then it takes to train for a primary weapon system thats used by two races.
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Janu Hull
Caldari
Order of Z Industries
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Posted - 2007.06.13 14:18:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Janu Hull on 13/06/2007 14:20:05
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: William Hamilton
Guns are a ships main weapons, missiles, like drones and ewar, are secondary systems.
Tell that to a Kestrel/Caracal/Drake pilot...
Add Raven to that, too. And the Pheonix.
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Vactet
Immortalis Silens
FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.13 14:28:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Quote:
Look at what you get when you can use t2 rails and compare with t2 torps. You are wastly more efficient with the rails.
Oh, is that so? Why do people use the Raven for PvE? Blanket statements ftl.
People use the raven for PVE because of missiles 1 big advantage, ability to change damage time. They take advantage of the weakness's in the enemy NPC's tank to get better damage.
Ive actually used both a T2 setup raven (Arbies instead actually. But you wouldnt use T2 for ratting to begin with) and a T2 Rokh (Blasters) for ratting in the drone regions. Blasters kill quicker.
So alot of people use a raven causes its easy to get into and easy to fit earlier in the game. And at the early stage, it does perform better.
Delivering the kick to the jaw of society to stop it from drooling on itself like the ignorant slop it is since 1984.
Originally by: CCP Sharkbait
we are screwed.
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Shalia Ripper
Caldari
High4Life
Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.13 15:47:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Slash Harnet
It is one of the dumbest things of all times. I've been hoping they drop the prerequisites on turrets. There are already enough time sinks IMO.
If they drop them after I go through all the months of training up to T2 Blasters, I might just have to lose my temper.
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Vladt
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Posted - 2007.06.14 11:37:00 -
[59]
well the answers are quite intresting thanks for the work :)
I would think a good roard to T2 Torp would be = standard T2 - heavy T2 - Torpedos T2
and for cruise missle rockets T2 - assault haevy T2 - Cruise Missle
and a secondery to it.
maybe that also hinders those macro o.o because it is so easy to get a new low level char to "farm" thoses Guristas
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WisdomLikeSilence
Rogue Method
Rogue Method Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.14 12:28:00 -
[60]
Wisdo demands an xtra large armour rep since her megathron cant use the xtra large sheild booster!
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
I want to use my robot-wisdo body!
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Gavin Darklighter
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Posted - 2007.06.14 12:43:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 14/06/2007 12:45:42
Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 14/06/2007 12:43:25
Originally by: WisdomLikeSilence
Wisdo demands an xtra large armour rep since her megathron cant use the xtra large sheild booster!
Sure, it will rep 1600 armor for 1066 cap, and the cpu use will be 230tf
Oh and while we are at it, I want shields to have 10/60/40/20 base resits to bring them in line with armor, and also a 10% bonus to one damage type for each race. Also, please give me some shield boost ammount rigs. I wouldnt mind letting you have armor rep booster low slot modules either, they will take 50tf though....
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Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2007.06.14 12:55:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Veritas Falx
What the hell does that have to do with anything? Noone max's out all their gun or missile skills at to 5. Also there are things like fof missiles in there which few people train for.
EDIT: I guess some people do, but few actually do.
Ehm... yes there are people that max out all their gun skills... and it is extremely relevant.
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Bentula
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Posted - 2007.06.14 12:58:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Vladt
well the answers are quite intresting thanks for the work :)
I would think a good roard to T2 Torp would be = standard T2 - heavy T2 - Torpedos T2
and for cruise missle rockets T2 - assault haevy T2 - Cruise Missle
and a secondery to it.
maybe that also hinders those macro o.o because it is so easy to get a new low level char to "farm" thoses Guristas
Thats not really making any sense. Torps belong to the unguided missile category unaffected by precision and prediction skill, just like rockets and heavy assault missiles.
So it should look like:
rockets --> heavy assault --> torps
standard --> heavy --> cruise
That way you have one skilline affected by those specialization skills and one dumbfire line.
Anyway this wont come to pass since ccp stated they are unwilling to increase skillrequirements of items already introduced to tranquility. Imagine you where able to fly a T2 fitted raven for years and suddenly the requirements get changed, people dont take that quietly.
People tend to forget that this isnt a t2 turrets vs. t2 torps decision. Everybody can take advantage of these shorter training times on torps, if people decide to use t2 turrets despite the longer training time they obviously have their reasons for that.
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