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Ragornok
Multiversal Enterprise Inc.
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Posted - 2007.06.16 04:34:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Keira Fordring
Quote:
For as long as I can remember, the cause on everyone's lips (forum warriors and Devs alike) has been how to populate low sec. Low sec has been a disaster- all the risk of 0.0 space, no rewards that can't be found in abundance in high sec. Quite simply, it had nothing special- either you didn't want risk and stayed in high sec, or you did want risk and went to 0.0. Low sec was desolate. What are lvl 5 missions? Well, they'd be something special that neither high sec nor 0.0 had- a reason to visit low sec.
I think the point the OP is trying to make, and one that I agree with, is that missions are not an effective way to populate low-sec.
There is a vast difference between PvE and PvP setups. Even if both the pirate and missionrunner have the exact same ship, the pirate has two advantages:
1) PvE setups are not good for PvP 2) The missionrunner has the mission rats to tank
If CCP really wants to get people into low-sec, they should create missions where you actually hunt other players. Agents pay you for pieces of their ships or tags or whatever. Either that or create a PvE mission that requires your ship to have a PvP fit (impossible unless they rework the rat AI).
The only way to entice people to low-sec is to level the playingfield. Just throwing in random level 5 missions doesn't cut it IMO.
Ok, so let me really make sure that I have this correct.
Mission runners complain they cannot run missions in carriers.
Carriers cannot enter empire space.
CCP gives missions for the carrier pilots, which can not in any way be done in empire space, as carriers cannot go there.
This has nothing to do with populating low-sec. It's the ONLY freakin way to give you guys exactly what you asked for..... Missions for Capital pilots, and capital ship sized rats.
And you guys STILL whine, when you get exactly what you asked for?
Un... freakin... believable.
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Ryas Nia
Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter
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Posted - 2007.06.16 06:31:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Keira Fordring
1) PvE setups are not good for PvP 2) The missionrunner has the mission rats to tank
1. Caldari PvE seups suck for pvp, my Maelstrom is deadly either way. 2. How many lvl5 missions have you done, can you confirm for sure that aggro does not switch, and that all aggro is focused on one player?
So far in my limited lvl5 experience, that was not the case and aggro did switch and i could not aggro all the ships.
Recruiting Terrorists |
Wraith Brutor
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Posted - 2007.06.16 06:32:00 -
[93]
booooohooooo.
Bloody Carebears lol. You don't want to go to lowsec? Fine, w/e, but you won't get the better missions. Stop whining.
Same applies to Miners, does it not? They want the good ores. they have to go to 0.0.
Get protection, stop being a loner, or stfu and hide in highsec.
It appears you have misunderstood how Eve works.
(I imagine similar has been said already but I couldn't be bothered reading much past the OP )
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Benglada
Infinitus Odium
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Posted - 2007.06.16 06:34:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Shameless Avenger
Originally by: Ker Ching Lvl 5s are designed to be run by teams, not solo. Teams don't need T2 and faction stuff, just organisation and skill.
Great! Now I just need to wait like a year for my corp mates to reach the mission-running-uberness level that I currently have...
Oh wait, I can always convo lofty "can you help me with a mission?"
i lol'd lofty is like -9.9 now tho
---------------------------
Originally by: Arkanor
0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends.
Sig nerfz0r - maximum allowed siz0r is 24000 bytz0r. - Devil ([email protected]) Sig By Ortos |
RuleoftheBone
Minmatar Veto. Academy Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.06.16 06:41:00 -
[95]
"Does he have fighters out?"
"Confirmed"
"Point.....Thanatos"
"Dude...wtf was THAT fitting all about?"
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
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Bunds
Caldari PILGRIMS Insane Asylum
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Posted - 2007.06.16 08:07:00 -
[96]
tbh i think tht when the lvl 5 comes that the systems in question could be policed np(maybes at a cost)but it wont as bad peeps think.
i think pirates and gank squads will have a harder time as anyone doing lvl 5 will not be solo.
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Ki An
Gallente The Really Awesome Players
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Posted - 2007.06.16 09:05:00 -
[97]
I just don't understand what the whining is about in this thread. You don't want to go to low sec? Stay in high sec and do lvl 4s. What's the freaking problem? Just because YOU don't want to go to lowsec doesn't mean EVERYONE doesn't want to go to lowsec.
/Ki
Joy to the world Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"! |
Rabbitual Ferrier
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Posted - 2007.06.16 09:16:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Mogrin nobody will have problems with the level 5 missions, the problem will be the pvpers preying on mission runners.
By simple law of averages, highsec level 4s will be more profitable than lowsec level 5s unless level 5 profits are so ridiculously high that people stop mining altogether.
Thats whats going to make lvl 5 missions fun, the risk of naughty piewats to kill as well.
Then you need to consider your set up and ships for the possible PvP clash as well as the mission. Funny enough you don't need the uber mission set up to complete missions when theres a few of you. So you need to think about how to compensate this (ie add ships).
Personally I reserve my Tech 2 for PVP where a small edge makes a big difference and mostly mission run in T1 and named T1 kit (Only the Tank and Drones are T2).
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umop 3pisdn
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.06.16 09:41:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Zaphod Jones You amaze me! I didn't think it was possible for one person to possess such a vast reservoir of undiluted whine!
If you caldari mission running torp spamming little toe rags can't get themselves into low sec once in a while you don't deserve the agents, personally I think that all level 4's should be in low sec,
In future, wake up the dozy hamster operating that wheel-powered brain of yours before you start typing. Eve is about Risk vs reward.
This post made me chuckle
These days if i see a raven outside highsec i just assume its an isk farmer.
level 4's should stay in high sec imo, if everything else goes to **** you should still be able to make isk somehow (i have successfully completed almost 9 level 4 missions before vomiting uncontrollably out of boredom and returning to 0.0)
I hope that level 5's will be a fair source of income... and not something to be taken over by bands of isk farmers in logging ravens.
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Phillip McCrevice
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Posted - 2007.06.16 10:13:00 -
[100]
i like this idea as i have lost a ship or two when running logistics in empire when lag hits and you shoot at the person that you are suppost to be repping, allways funny to see concord on a mission lol
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Zeko Rena
Caldari Tangent Technologies
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Posted - 2007.06.16 10:23:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Zeko Rena on 16/06/2007 10:23:31 Edited by: Zeko Rena on 16/06/2007 10:22:30 I have to agree with most people here, the point of level 5's are to get groups, and maybe capital ships involved, you don't need to run such good setups with such good ships if you have a good organized group, who know what there doing
Edit: Oh and they apparently they have capital ship enemies in them too, and since capitals cant come into high sec, would you want to take on capitals solo in a bs? -------------------------- Big boys, with big gun's |
Ryas Nia
Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter
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Posted - 2007.06.16 10:23:00 -
[102]
Originally by: umop 3pisdn
I hope that level 5's will be a fair source of income... and not something to be taken over by bands of isk farmers in logging ravens.
No isk only loot sorry.
Recruiting Terrorists |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2007.06.16 10:46:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Keira Fordring
Quote:
For as long as I can remember, the cause on everyone's lips (forum warriors and Devs alike) has been how to populate low sec. Low sec has been a disaster- all the risk of 0.0 space, no rewards that can't be found in abundance in high sec. Quite simply, it had nothing special- either you didn't want risk and stayed in high sec, or you did want risk and went to 0.0. Low sec was desolate. What are lvl 5 missions? Well, they'd be something special that neither high sec nor 0.0 had- a reason to visit low sec.
I think the point the OP is trying to make, and one that I agree with, is that missions are not an effective way to populate low-sec.
There is a vast difference between PvE and PvP setups. Even if both the pirate and missionrunner have the exact same ship, the pirate has two advantages:
1) PvE setups are not good for PvP 2) The missionrunner has the mission rats to tank
If CCP really wants to get people into low-sec, they should create missions where you actually hunt other players. Agents pay you for pieces of their ships or tags or whatever. Either that or create a PvE mission that requires your ship to have a PvP fit (impossible unless they rework the rat AI).
The only way to entice people to low-sec is to level the playingfield. Just throwing in random level 5 missions doesn't cut it IMO.
1: I complex run solely in PvP set ups, in 0.0. Its more fun. Doubly so for belt ratting- in a PvP set up. Back in my low sec days, I used to love belt ratting in a PvP set up: Pirate warps in, I shoot back at him with my omni tank, Nos and Sensor Damps, and WARP SCRAMBLE...pop goes Mr. Pirate. Great fun. I do indulge in "PvE" set ups in Empire, but never in low sec, and it's always done fine by me. And if I can do it, I'm sure others can too- try doing lvl 5s in PvP capable ships, and see what happens. And being a group activity, how hard iis it to have a single module slot on a single ship equipped with a scrambler?
2: This is true. But lvl 5s are group missions. What this means is that 99% of groups will have a single person tanking agro, and everyone else without it. Pirates warp in? IF they shoot Mr. tank, he can just warp out and voila, the agro gets shared out between everyone randomly (including the pirates). If they don't shoot at him and instead go for one of the damage dealers (and I would if I were attacking a heavily armed gang), then agro is not an issue.
Try thinking outside the box. Lets not just go "My tactics won't work on this new thing, therefor CCP should change it!". Try some new tactics. If you're worried about being attacked in a special unbalanced PvE set up, try flying a PvP set up instead. Sure it might take you a little bit longer to finish a mission, but its far from impossible. Trust me. --------
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el grande
Amarr club of billionares
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Posted - 2007.06.16 11:06:00 -
[104]
can i have your stuff.
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Tecam Hund
The Buggers
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Posted - 2007.06.16 11:26:00 -
[105]
What a load of crap CCP! Why can't we make tens of millions ISK per hour in high sec without risk!? Where is this game going?
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Queenann
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Posted - 2007.06.16 11:36:00 -
[106]
All the pirates will now go to low sector areas where lvl 5 agents exist and gank all day long. |
Wraith Brutor
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Posted - 2007.06.16 12:00:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Queenann All the pirates will now go to low sector areas where lvl 5 agents exist and gank all day long.
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Death Kill
Caldari direkte
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Posted - 2007.06.16 12:07:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Mogrin
Tell me mr. bigshot, whats easier than soloing missions in mission running ships?
I can't think of anything. With my passive drake I dont have to warp out at all.
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Death Kill
Caldari direkte
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Posted - 2007.06.16 12:07:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Queenann All the pirates will now go to low sector areas where lvl 5 agents exist and gank all day long.
lol
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qantua gnartians
Gallente Phoenix Wing Acheron Federation
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Posted - 2007.06.16 12:18:00 -
[110]
Edited by: qantua gnartians on 16/06/2007 12:17:03
Originally by: Patch86
Obviously, it's pointless trying to tempt group number one out- they'll never go, whatever you do. It's pointless trying to tempt group number two- they're already there. But group number three...they're the bunnies that low-sec boosts need to focus on. I feel that putting a high reward mission network in low-sec is about the only thing acceptable- it doesn't force them to leave high sec, but it gives them a good reason to give it a go, if they're that way inclined.
I think you miss wry a large group of people actually willing to take well calculated risk arent in 0.0(that mostly safer then low sec), it is not always about carebearism its also about the gameplay that comes with sov warfare(cap/Forum/wallet warfare)
Tempting the capital fleets of beaten aliances into low sec for recovery, is not going to ring with the groups that have decided against 0.0 out of other reason then just carebearism.
Really profitable, LvL 5 missions that cant be run solo would be a good thing in terms of moving the empire mercs out to low sec. Making cap ship a nessesity for doing them probably will keep them away.
Is just as we have seen so many times before CCP designing content for the 10% of the playerbase thats been around since the year after beta, and not the whole player base.
Im one of the stupid stubborn people that insist on living and mission running in low sec, and i will hate to see the ugly face of megaaliance politics ruin the atsmosphere of low sec.
I hereby represents myself and noone but myself, please dont make my corp or aliance responsible for my foolish ramblings. |
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hUssmann
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.06.16 12:31:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Queenann All the pirates will now go to low sector areas where lvl 5 agents exist and gank all day long.
Ginger Magician > You are merely an effective ganker of haulers who runs at the first sign of combat. |
Quithlar Binay
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.06.16 13:45:00 -
[112]
Through all of this discussion, the central issue seems to be PvP in the mission area. I think the mechanics of that have been described well, so I'll move on to a solution.
Do not allow the mission acceleration gates to be probed, or used by a non-mission taker if found in some other way.
This would restore an old dynamic, where the main PvP risk from low-security and 0.0 mission running was in the travel, not at the mission itself. There may still be pirates at the gates, and pirates at the station. On the way in and out. If that risk, which is very real, is considered to be enough now as it was then, mission pay and other rewards can be balanced as such, and should not be "out of control".
This would restore some flexibility to the mission takers. Pirates can be at a gate, but the mission takers choose when to try to jump through. They can even arrange an attack to aid in getting through. Pirates can be at a station, but the mission takers choose when to undock, and can arrange an attack at that time as well.
What this would prevent is PvP during a time when the mission takers, no matter how good and experienced of pilots they are, are at significant disadvantages. Unlike gate and station combat, there is no way to tip the scales, and I would argue this is against the spirit of Eve. This does not compare to low-sec mining, because of the penalty for failure of a mission. One cannot simply choose to do it somewhere else, at some other time.
To keep this "safe" mission area from being used for other purposes, I propose that the "invulnerability" of the acceleration gate drop after a period of time, long enough for the mission to be completed by a reasonable gang. They could delay reporting success to the agent, and the area would remain, but it would profit them no more than any other mission deadspace.
Perhaps I am wrong, about the intent of these missions. Perhaps it is meant that the mission takers must also bring additional guards sufficient to defeat pirate attack (and probably take security hits in the process). If that is so, then I hope it will be stated clearly.
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Quithlar Binay Instructor, Advanced Studies Federal Navy Academy |
Bado Sten
Minmatar Sten Industries
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Posted - 2007.06.16 13:48:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Joerd Toastius Eve 101
This says it all!
-- Vivian: You go too far, Marlowe. Marlowe: Those are harsh words to throw at a man, especially when he's walking out of your bedroom. |
Verone
Gallente Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.06.16 14:23:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Bado Sten
Originally by: Joerd Toastius Eve 101
This says it all!
ROFL!
and yeah... risk vs reward.
People can boo hoo all they way, there's no way they should be able to sit in highsec, risk free, farming ISK in high level missions.
This isn't WoW, or any other generic MMOG.
This is Eve.
>>> THE BEAUTY OF NEW EDEN <<<
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Lord Dynastron
Mystical Knights Legionnaire Services Ltd.
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Posted - 2007.06.16 15:18:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Queenann All the pirates will now go to low sector areas where lvl 5 agents exist and gank all day long.
The problem for the pirates is the teams running the Lvl 5s are most likely 'Grizzly Carebears' and there would be a whole pack of them. 4 pirates against 11 Raven jocks just seems like it it not what the 'average' pirate wants.
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MotherMoon
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Posted - 2007.06.16 15:19:00 -
[116]
I really hope someone reads this the anwser is so clear it's not even funny
cap ships aren't allowed in high sec lvl 5's are meant to done with cap ships
seems pretty simple to me the OP is basicly asking for cap ships to be allowed in high sec
do you think the empires would like other factions dreads into high sec?
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MotherMoon
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Posted - 2007.06.16 15:23:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Wraith Brutor
Originally by: Queenann All the pirates will now go to low sector areas where lvl 5 agents exist and gank all day long.
wow, you really think a team of 5 highly skilled player fielding capitals ships are going to get ganked????
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Lord Dynastron
Mystical Knights Legionnaire Services Ltd.
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Posted - 2007.06.16 15:33:00 -
[118]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Wraith Brutor
Originally by: Queenann All the pirates will now go to low sector areas where lvl 5 agents exist and gank all day long.
wow, you really think a team of 5 highly skilled player fielding capitals ships are going to get ganked????
...or 10?
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MotherMoon
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Posted - 2007.06.16 20:51:00 -
[119]
better question
do you think any pirate actully goes after a group of people?
no way, pirates low ganking one person with 4 rifters because the risk and the cost is low :D
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Keira Fordring
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.06.16 22:28:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Keira Fordring on 16/06/2007 22:27:54
Originally by: Ragornok
Originally by: Keira Fordring
Quote:
For as long as I can remember, the cause on everyone's lips (forum warriors and Devs alike) has been how to populate low sec. Low sec has been a disaster- all the risk of 0.0 space, no rewards that can't be found in abundance in high sec. Quite simply, it had nothing special- either you didn't want risk and stayed in high sec, or you did want risk and went to 0.0. Low sec was desolate. What are lvl 5 missions? Well, they'd be something special that neither high sec nor 0.0 had- a reason to visit low sec.
I think the point the OP is trying to make, and one that I agree with, is that missions are not an effective way to populate low-sec.
There is a vast difference between PvE and PvP setups. Even if both the pirate and missionrunner have the exact same ship, the pirate has two advantages:
1) PvE setups are not good for PvP 2) The missionrunner has the mission rats to tank
If CCP really wants to get people into low-sec, they should create missions where you actually hunt other players. Agents pay you for pieces of their ships or tags or whatever. Either that or create a PvE mission that requires your ship to have a PvP fit (impossible unless they rework the rat AI).
The only way to entice people to low-sec is to level the playingfield. Just throwing in random level 5 missions doesn't cut it IMO.
Ok, so let me really make sure that I have this correct.
Mission runners complain they cannot run missions in carriers.
Carriers cannot enter empire space.
CCP gives missions for the carrier pilots, which can not in any way be done in empire space, as carriers cannot go there.
This has nothing to do with populating low-sec. It's the ONLY freakin way to give you guys exactly what you asked for..... Missions for Capital pilots, and capital ship sized rats.
And you guys STILL whine, when you get exactly what you asked for?
Un... freakin... believable.
It's really sad that anytime someone comes to a discussion forum to have a discussion it's met with accusations of complaining and whining.
At any rate, I don't see how it negatively effects you if they added group based level 5 missions in 0.5 and up.
One could add that all the "no L5 in high-sec" advocates are whining just as much as those of us that would like them. After all, the single most common complaint from your side is "waah, you'll get more ISK than me".
Whatever makes you sleep at night. I just think CCP could spread things around. There are some people that simply don't want to go to low-sec but would like group based play. Level 4s just don't cut it. It's not always about ISK, sometimes it's about fun.
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