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L'Petit Object Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact 0	Posted - 2012.01.04 18:19:00 - [1] - Quote I take a one year break from the game and someone has told me now that Caldari ships are ACTUALLY being used in PVP?! Have all of you lost your freaking mind? I spec'd Caldari because unlike my commy/liberal-pinko RL attitudes, in internet spaceships I wanted to be a vicious fascist/anarcho-capitalist pig. Then I found out that Caldari ships were complete crap, everyone armor tanked, and none of them could do anything worthwhile in pvp. There were rare exceptions, you anal-retentive bastards. I know, blah blah blah, Ham Drake. TORPS R GOOD. I saw the video, and, yeah, I can' spend a billion on pirate-faction crap to make it work too. (no I can't, I'm broke, please send ISK) But besides for soloboating pirate scum, every time you wanted to fleet up you couldn't meet DPS needs because your lowslots were now a massive plate, DC, and some other such crap. So is it true? Some rumor was that goonswarm was running shield pvp fleets. Another was that Hybrids were actually comparable weapons to other guns. Space stations are filled with fairies and love and CCP is going to give us all a month free to make up for extended downtimes. (figure out which one's I'm serious about) After a year of playing, DETERMINED to fly the Rokh because it looks like a giant Engine of space-doom, are you actually telling me it could be viable fleet ship?! Because I'm about to plan Gallente and inquiring minds want to know. /incredulity PS: Need a solid solo-boat, pirate-scum pvp fit for a caldari cruiser.
Alara IonStorm 1300	Posted - 2012.01.04 18:39:00 - [2] - Quote Spider Tanking died for most large fleets and people started rolling Logi Ships. With that Shield Logi started getting use and Shield Gangs started hitting the field. Shield Battlecruiser Cruiser Gangs especially to counter Armor HAC Gangs. Maelstroms with Heavy Alpha 1400mm Guns and Abbadons with Scorch are the top choices for Battleship Gangs. Rokhs not so much really as they lack the Alpha. Tempests and Armageddons are also running as well for cheaper Battleship Gang Choices. Both Shield and Armor Scorpions see some use for countering Logistics but more as Support Ships not making up the central line. Where Caldari Fleet PvP is really shining now is with Heavy Missile Drakes and Tengu Gangs. Drakes have really taken off with the resist bonus complimenting RR, 80km Range, Large Buffer and 60mil Price Tag / Low Training Time. Artillery Hurricanes as well with their good little Alpha. These Ships while weak to Battleship Gangs have more mobility and accuracy against Cruiser sized targets while being cheap enough that at 1/4th the price loosing to a Battleship Gang is not much of a hit to your Corp Members wallets. The new Tornado working as a Mini Maelstrom is seeing use to now. Think Human Wave Tactics. Shield Drakes and Canes are everywhere now. L'Petit Object wrote: So is it true? Some rumor was that goonswarm was running shield pvp fleets Not just Goon Swarm but half or more Alliances have switched from Abbadons to Maelstroms and pretty much everyone runs Drakes and Hurricanes now.
Petrus Blackshell Rifterlings 182	Posted - 2012.01.04 18:47:00 - [3] - Quote Can't tell if you're trolling or just naturally sound like a mouthbreathing raging tard. Oh well, I'll give you a real response: Yes, Caldari is good for PvP. Shield tanks are great for PvP. Missiles are great for PvP. Yes, rockets too. Railguns are good too, if you use them right. Blasters are very good now, too. The most popular Caldari solo-boats are the Merlin, Kestrel, Hookbill, and Drake -- none a cruiser. Put Heavy Electron Blasters on a Moa and it's pretty good, too, but for some reason people don't use it much. So far as T2, the Harpy is excellent, especially if you fly it with rails and not blasters. The Caracal is decent, but has a "tank vs gank" tradeoff that is really bad for it. For gangs, bring a Blackbird or Griffin and jam everything in sight. The Rokh is also apparently now present in some fleet fits as well. The only ships suffering right now are the Hawk (active tank wtf), Crow (horrible for a combat interceptor), and the Eagle, Ferox, and the very-long-range Rokh, which can't engage at 150+ km for fear of everything suddenly warping in on them. If you hear anyone tell you Caldari sucks at PvP, please smack them.
Suleiman Shouaa The Tuskers 58	Posted - 2012.01.04 18:54:00 - [4] - Quote The Hawk is currently in the top tier of Assault Frigates along with the Vengeance and the leaked changes to Assault Frigates actually make it significantly stronger than it is right now. The Hookbill is also one of the best Tech 1 Frigates out there. Drake is, as always, the most versatile Battlecruiser. Scorpion Navy Issues, Rattlesnakes and Tengus are all very, very credible PvP boats.
Liang Nuren Heretic Army 558	Posted - 2012.01.04 19:19:00 - [5] - Quote Caldari was always good at PVP. And unsurprisingly, they still are good at PVP. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
L'Petit Object Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact 0	Posted - 2012.01.04 19:28:00 - [6] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: Caldari was always good at PVP. And unsurprisingly, they still are good at PVP. -Liang Come on Liang. Always good at PVP? They wouldn't let you in the fleet. If you did get in the fleet, you had a gimped fit for an armor tank. Their ships may have been capable, but if you can't participate, how good are you? As far as solo-boat stuff. Sure, I bet you're right. I have yet to do anything but wet myself and mash my keyboard during pvp.
Petrus Blackshell Rifterlings 182	Posted - 2012.01.04 19:29:00 - [7] - Quote One year ago they were still good, who the hell were you flying with who made you armor-fit Caldari ships?!
Liang Nuren Heretic Army 558	Posted - 2012.01.04 19:30:00 - [8] - Quote L'Petit Object wrote: Liang Nuren wrote: Caldari was always good at PVP. And unsurprisingly, they still are good at PVP. -Liang Come on Liang. Always good at PVP? They wouldn't let you in the fleet. If you did get in the fleet, you had a gimped fit for an armor tank. Their ships may have been capable, but if you can't participate, how good are you? As far as solo-boat stuff. Sure, I bet you're right. I have yet to do anything but wet myself and mash my keyboard during pvp. TBH if you couldn't participate you just needed to find non-******** people to fly with. Or you could just stop blobbing with gimmick fleets; that works too. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Liang Nuren Heretic Army 558	Posted - 2012.01.04 19:34:00 - [9] - Quote Petrus Blackshell wrote: One year ago they were still good, who the hell were you flying with who made you armor-fit Caldari ships?! For a long time the only "accepted" RRBS Caldari battleships were armor ravens and armor scorps. In AB/HAC gangs it was commonplace to see armor Falcons as I understand it (at least, when I actually saw falcons with one). Doesn't mean it was the best way to fly them... just that it was what was demanded for the kinds of fleets (blobs, really) they were being put in. The reality of the situation, however, is that shield tanking has actually been quite powerful for a number of years. The extra mobility that came with shield tanking was just too valuable. The trend for "nano" shield tanking everthing sub-BC started maybe late 2008 - maybe even earlier? Even then early adopters were commonly scoffed at. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Petrus Blackshell Rifterlings 182	Posted - 2012.01.04 19:45:00 - [10] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: For a long time the only "accepted" RRBS Caldari battleships were armor ravens and armor scorps. In AB/HAC gangs it was commonplace to see armor Falcons as I understand it (at least, when I actually saw falcons with one). Doesn't mean it was the best way to fly them... just that it was what was demanded for the kinds of fleets (blobs, really) they were being put in. The reality of the situation, however, is that shield tanking has actually been quite powerful for a number of years. The extra mobility that came with shield tanking was just too valuable. The trend for "nano" shield tanking everthing sub-BC started maybe late 2008 - maybe even earlier? Even then early adopters were commonly scoffed at. -Liang Actually now I think of it I do remember people shouting for armor Scorpions and Falcons. At least there's a reason there (extra jammer, and able to have RR buffer in armor fleets) but WTF armor Raven? I remember I saw some people who were trying to armor-tank the Moa or Merlin, too. I don't know, I trained to fly Minmatar first, so I have always had a mentality of shields = speed+damage = goooooooooood. At the time all this was going on I was still fairly newby I suppose, so that must be why it didn't bother me more. I also hadn't crosstrained Caldari at that point yet. The only race I have never shield tanked is Amarr, as there is not much of a point to doing that (aside from nano harby maybe). Anyway, shields are good. /rant
King Rothgar Autocannons Anonymous 125	Posted - 2012.01.04 20:17:00 - [11] - Quote The caldari ships haven't changed a bit as far as I know (ignoring the blaster buff) since I started playing in late 07. What has changed are player tactics. It used to all be about RRBS fleets, even abaddons would drop a gun or two in favor of RR. The "fleet domi" was also in it's prime and it wasn't uncommon to see entire gangs of nothing but those nasty guardian like domi's with their hordes of heavy drones. In that environment, caldari weren't crap, but since 3 out of 4 races favor armor tanking, they were mismatched with everyone else. You could certainly do an RR raven fleet with a normal shield setup. The trouble was never with the ship, it was with finding people able to fly it. Then suddenly the epic SC buff hit, and anything and everything armor tanked that wasn't an SC was suddenly obsolete. Thus subcap fleets returned to nano. And since armor doesn't nano very well, everyone went to shields. Some people figured out that having a scimitar or two gave a decisive advantage when two such fleets collided. Thus logi soon became a regular site in fleets of 10+ where as before it had not been. Ganglinks, specifically skirmish, also became widespread. This also evolved fits to use more range. Previous nano fits were still fitted for point blank (AC's, blasters, HAM's) but with the ability to point people at 50km+, it seemed silly to get so close. Thus fits changed to involve more range. Currently we have a new situation, SC's are no longer the solopwnmobiles against everything else in eve and so we're starting to see a return to the less mobile armor setups. The knowledge of the advantages of true logi over RRBS hasn't been lost though, so now we see guardians in pretty much all armor fleets and any BS's in them being fit for dps + neuting. I don't know of anyone who still uses the old RRBS setups. Hard to say where this will lead to next, nano has a range advantage currently while armor has an EW advantage.
Mike712 Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 20	Posted - 2012.01.04 20:37:00 - [12] - Quote I bring you the ship that half of 0.0 is flying right now: [Rokh, Fleet Rokh] Damage Control II Signal Amplifier II Tracking Enhancer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Large Shield Extender II Heat Dissipation Field II Photon Scattering Field II Invulnerability Field II 425mm Railgun II, Javelin L 425mm Railgun II, Javelin L 425mm Railgun II, Javelin L 425mm Railgun II, Javelin L 425mm Railgun II, Javelin L 425mm Railgun II, Javelin L 425mm Railgun II, Javelin L 425mm Railgun II, Javelin L Large Core Defence Field Extender I Large Core Defence Field Extender I Large Core Defence Field Extender I Looks quite Caldari.
Hungry Eyes Ministry of War Amarr Empire 311	Posted - 2012.01.04 20:43:00 - [13] - Quote 100mn AB Tengu is the best ship in the game currently. these have been known to take down Machariels. it needs a fuckin nerf. hard.
Naomi Knight Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 179	Posted - 2012.01.04 20:55:00 - [14] - Quote Only drake and tengu thats all maybe naga. Caldari as a whole still bad in pvp.
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba Bellum Esca 69	Posted - 2012.01.04 21:02:00 - [15] - Quote Why no EWAR mentions? I thought they were the best at that? Hope so that looks to be my route in to it.
L'Petit Object Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact 0	Posted - 2012.01.04 21:03:00 - [16] - Quote Mike712 wrote: I bring you the ship that half of 0.0 is flying right now: [Rokh, Fleet Rokh] Damage Control II Signal Amplifier II Tracking Enhancer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Large Shield Extender II Heat Dissipation Field II Photon Scattering Field II Invulnerability Field II 425mm Railgun II, Javelin L 425mm Railgun II, Javelin L 425mm Railgun II, Javelin L 425mm Railgun II, Javelin L 425mm Railgun II, Javelin L 425mm Railgun II, Javelin L 425mm Railgun II, Javelin L 425mm Railgun II, Javelin L Large Core Defence Field Extender I Large Core Defence Field Extender I Large Core Defence Field Extender I Looks quite Caldari. Thanks! That helps a lot. I've been playing with fitting and I have trouble deciding what's acceptable or competitive. I will check this out.
Liang Nuren Heretic Army 558	Posted - 2012.01.04 21:11:00 - [17] - Quote ECM sucks, you shouldn't ever use it. Nobody should us it, and ECM drones suck too. Here's an example of how ******* terrible ECM is: Last night I was in a Harpy at belt one in Amamake. I just finished killing a Rifter and was chatting it up with the Rifter pilot when an Arazu warps into the belt on me. I put out the call on vent and immediately get right up on top of him and start laying into him with Void. His shields go fast but his armor is kinda slow going. About the time my gang lands (making it a Harpy, Taranis, Hyena, Daredevil, Hurricane) they land with a Tornado and Abaddon at range. Unfortunately for them we dropped the Arazu fairly quickly ( http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=62077 ) and move on to tackle the Abaddon and Tornado. The Tornado is in deep armor and going down fast when the Falcon uncloaks and jams all of us. The Tornado gets out in hull, the Abaddon goes free, and the Falcon warps away. This is a lesson in why ECM sucks. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Petrus Blackshell Rifterlings 182	Posted - 2012.01.04 21:18:00 - [18] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: ECM sucks, you shouldn't ever use it. Nobody should us it, and ECM drones suck too. Here's an example of how ******* terrible ECM is: Last night I was in a Harpy at belt one in Amamake. I just finished killing a Rifter and was chatting it up with the Rifter pilot when an Arazu warps into the belt on me. I put out the call on vent and immediately get right up on top of him and start laying into him with Void. His shields go fast but his armor is kinda slow going. About the time my gang lands (making it a Harpy, Taranis, Hyena, Daredevil, Hurricane) they land with a Tornado and Abaddon at range. Unfortunately for them we dropped the Arazu fairly quickly ( http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=62077 ) and move on to tackle the Abaddon and Tornado. The Tornado is in deep armor and going down fast when the Falcon uncloaks and jams all of us. The Tornado gets out in hull, the Abaddon goes free, and the Falcon warps away. This is a lesson in why ECM sucks. -Liang Wait, Heretic Army bringing a good fight in Amamake? What is this I don't even? And yes, ECM is terrible and you should never use it. I once did the same thing that Falcon did, except with my Hyena, and it was really sad watching a Vagabond and Dramiel bump me angrily while my gang and I ran away. I have also missed out on solo-ing a Sabre in my Stiletto because of Falcon. ECM sucks, use tracking disruption instead. Or sensor disruption.
Cambarus Baros Reloaded 110	Posted - 2012.01.04 21:27:00 - [19] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: ECM sucks, you shouldn't ever use it. Nobody should us it, and ECM drones suck too. Here's an example of how ******* terrible ECM is: [...] This is a lesson in why ECM sucks. -Liang As someone who's usually on the giving end of that sort of encounter, I agree wholeheartedly Falcons scale VERY poorly when you shrink gang sizes (from a balance POV, not saying that they're underpowered) In larger gangs and in fleets ECM is fine as is, but holy bad game design batman do they ever need a kick in the teeth for small gangs.
Liang Nuren Heretic Army 558	Posted - 2012.01.04 21:42:00 - [20] - Quote Cambarus wrote: Liang Nuren wrote: ECM sucks, you shouldn't ever use it. Nobody should us it, and ECM drones suck too. Here's an example of how ******* terrible ECM is: [...] This is a lesson in why ECM sucks. -Liang As someone who's usually on the giving end of that sort of encounter, I agree wholeheartedly Falcons scale VERY poorly when you shrink gang sizes (from a balance POV, not saying that they're underpowered) In larger gangs and in fleets ECM is fine as is, but holy bad game design batman do they ever need a kick in the teeth for small gangs. I think there's a lot of things about CC that Eve could learn from other MMOs. Not diminishing returns and CC breaks and all that, but just the idea that a single guy shouldn't disable the entire other enemy gang. Some kind of scaling would be great. Something that meant a frigate required more effort to permajam than activating a multispec as an example. I'd say that despite the lack of diminishing returns (and thus the ability to be perma-CCed!), all defensive CC in Eve is roughly balanced save ECM. And ECM is just ridiculous because up to gang size of 10-15 its simply... incredible. And Scorps are actually able to scale even higher because of their higher HP letting them live through semi massed drone aggro (also, range if thats your bag). -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba Bellum Esca 69	Posted - 2012.01.04 21:57:00 - [21] - Quote So doesn't ECCM and F.O.F. missiles counter them? To me that sounds like the perfect anti gank ship to support exploration fleets.
Liang Nuren Heretic Army 558	Posted - 2012.01.04 22:04:00 - [22] - Quote No I wouldn't say that ECCM and FOFs are a sufficient counter to ECM - primarily because fitting to counter ECM utterly ****** destroys* your fit with regards to anything else. Hell, in that particular example we were actually running with a full set of info links (!!). -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Petrus Blackshell Rifterlings 182	Posted - 2012.01.04 22:07:00 - [23] - Quote FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote: So doesn't ECCM and F.O.F. missiles counter them? To me that sounds like the perfect anti gank ship to support exploration fleets. Nope, ECCM really gimps any fit, and is only warranted where you are really damn sure you are going to get jammed -- such as when flying a logi. FOF missiles can work, but they are horrible by virtue of the fact they can randomly decide to shoot drones or other such things. They are very unreliable.
Liang Nuren Heretic Army 558	Posted - 2012.01.04 22:20:00 - [24] - Quote Petrus Blackshell wrote: FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote: So doesn't ECCM and F.O.F. missiles counter them? To me that sounds like the perfect anti gank ship to support exploration fleets. Nope, ECCM really gimps any fit, and is only warranted where you are really damn sure you are going to get jammed -- such as when flying a logi. FOF missiles can work, but they are horrible by virtue of the fact they can randomly decide to shoot drones or other such things. They are very unreliable. It's more than just that it disables your damage - its that it disables everything (including tackle and counter-ewar!) and there's literally nothing you can do about it. The closest thing to this level of incapacitation is damps where its 1 ewar ship disabling 1 DPS ship and even then you can simply get closer or wait for the lock. With TDs it doesn't affect your tackle and you can still pilot effectively to limp along. With ECM? Everyone in your fleet just waits around for it to be their turn to die. Yes, all 5-8 of you. Because of 1 guy on the other side. The end. Good fight! -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Petrus Blackshell Rifterlings 182	Posted - 2012.01.04 22:27:00 - [25] - Quote Actually I've been considering using disposable Celestis cruisers to deal with camping snipers. Damp their targeting range and laugh. But yeah, ECM is far overpowered compared to other EW in small gangs.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts 167	Posted - 2012.01.04 22:29:00 - [26] - Quote Okay, I know this wouldn't have helped you in the specific case of keeping that Arazu tackled, but if you're in a 5-8 man gang and you have no ability to drive an ECM boat from the field or neutralise it, then the problem isn't ECM, it's your one-dimensional gang composition.
Liang Nuren Heretic Army 558	Posted - 2012.01.04 22:33:00 - [27] - Quote Gypsio III wrote: Okay, I know this wouldn't have helped you in the specific case of keeping that Arazu tackled, but if you're in a 5-8 man gang and you have no ability to drive an ECM boat from the field or neutralise it, then the problem isn't ECM, it's your one-dimensional gang composition. So what you're saying is that in any 5 man gang someone should be rocking a 150 sensor strength Celestis on the off chance that someone is gonna decloak a Falcon? The ECM mechanic as a whole is utterly unacceptable and NEEDS CHANGED. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Petrus Blackshell Rifterlings 183	Posted - 2012.01.04 22:33:00 - [28] - Quote Gypsio III wrote: Okay, I know this wouldn't have helped you in the specific case of keeping that Arazu tackled, but if you're in a 5-8 man gang and you have no ability to drive an ECM boat from the field or neutralise it, then the problem isn't ECM, it's your one-dimensional gang composition. In their case it was the fault of the mixed race composition, plus most of them being frigates -- it allows the Falcon to nail them with racial jammers perfectly. The problem wasn't that they were not able to drive it out or neutralize it, but rather that ECM can be an easy-mode escape button. Your enemies have the length of the whole jam cycle to decide to either punch holes in you, run away, or both. And there's nothing you can do about it. With TDs there is: lower your transversal, or get closer. With SDs there is: get closer, or wait a little longer.
Petrus Blackshell Rifterlings 183	Posted - 2012.01.04 22:34:00 - [29] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: Gypsio III wrote: Okay, I know this wouldn't have helped you in the specific case of keeping that Arazu tackled, but if you're in a 5-8 man gang and you have no ability to drive an ECM boat from the field or neutralise it, then the problem isn't ECM, it's your one-dimensional gang composition. So what you're saying is that in any 5 man gang someone should be rocking a 150 sensor strength Celestis on the off chance that someone is gonna decloak a Falcon? The ECM mechanic as a whole is utterly unacceptable and NEEDS CHANGED. -Liang Actually this is amazing. I need to train an Arazu alt and fit it out with ECCM and a point so I can decloak and tackle Falcons.
Liang Nuren Heretic Army 558	Posted - 2012.01.04 22:40:00 - [30] - Quote Petrus Blackshell wrote: Liang Nuren wrote: Gypsio III wrote: Okay, I know this wouldn't have helped you in the specific case of keeping that Arazu tackled, but if you're in a 5-8 man gang and you have no ability to drive an ECM boat from the field or neutralise it, then the problem isn't ECM, it's your one-dimensional gang composition. So what you're saying is that in any 5 man gang someone should be rocking a 150 sensor strength Celestis on the off chance that someone is gonna decloak a Falcon? The ECM mechanic as a whole is utterly unacceptable and NEEDS CHANGED. -Liang Actually this is amazing. I need to train an Arazu alt and fit it out with ECCM and a point so I can decloak and tackle Falcons. Go with an mass ECCMed info linked Blarazu. People using a Falcon like putting it at range from the rest of the fight and you'll generally have time to kill him before they get on top of you. Its a bit niche but you really do have to have such ridiculous counters on hand at all times just in case someone has a Falcon nearby. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren

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