So is it true? Some rumor was that goonswarm was running shield pvp fleets

Caldari was always good at PVP. And unsurprisingly, they still are good at PVP.

-Liang

Come on Liang. Always good at PVP? They wouldn't let you in the fleet. If you did get in the fleet, you had a gimped fit for an armor tank. Their ships may have been capable, but if you can't participate, how good are you?

As far as solo-boat stuff. Sure, I bet you're right. I have yet to do anything but wet myself and mash my keyboard during pvp.

One year ago they were still good, who the hell were you flying with who made you armor-fit Caldari ships?!

For a long time the only "accepted" RRBS Caldari battleships were armor ravens and armor scorps. In AB/HAC gangs it was commonplace to see armor Falcons as I understand it (at least, when I actually saw falcons with one). Doesn't mean it was the best way to fly them... just that it was what was demanded for the kinds of fleets (blobs, really) they were being put in.

The reality of the situation, however, is that shield tanking has actually been quite powerful for a number of years. The extra mobility that came with shield tanking was just too valuable. The trend for "nano" shield tanking everthing sub-BC started maybe late 2008 - maybe even earlier? Even then early adopters were commonly scoffed at.

-Liang

I bring you the ship that half of 0.0 is flying right now:

[Rokh, Fleet Rokh]
Damage Control II
Signal Amplifier II
Tracking Enhancer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Large Shield Extender II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Invulnerability Field II

425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L

Large Core Defence Field Extender I
Large Core Defence Field Extender I
Large Core Defence Field Extender I

Looks quite Caldari.

ECM sucks, you shouldn't ever use it. Nobody should us it, and ECM drones suck too.

Here's an example of how ******* terrible ECM is:
Last night I was in a Harpy at belt one in Amamake. I just finished killing a Rifter and was chatting it up with the Rifter pilot when an Arazu warps into the belt on me. I put out the call on vent and immediately get right up on top of him and start laying into him with Void. His shields go fast but his armor is kinda slow going.

About the time my gang lands (making it a Harpy, Taranis, Hyena, Daredevil, Hurricane) they land with a Tornado and Abaddon at range. Unfortunately for them we dropped the Arazu fairly quickly ( http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=62077 ) and move on to tackle the Abaddon and Tornado. The Tornado is in deep armor and going down fast when the Falcon uncloaks and jams all of us.

The Tornado gets out in hull, the Abaddon goes free, and the Falcon warps away.

This is a lesson in why ECM sucks.

-Liang

ECM sucks, you shouldn't ever use it. Nobody should us it, and ECM drones suck too.

Here's an example of how ******* terrible ECM is:
[...]
This is a lesson in why ECM sucks.

-Liang

As someone who's usually on the giving end of that sort of encounter, I agree wholeheartedly Falcons scale VERY poorly when you shrink gang sizes (from a balance POV, not saying that they're underpowered) In larger gangs and in fleets ECM is fine as is, but holy bad game design batman do they ever need a kick in the teeth for small gangs.

So doesn't ECCM and F.O.F. missiles counter them? To me that sounds like the perfect anti gank ship to support exploration fleets.

Nope, ECCM really gimps any fit, and is only warranted where you are really damn sure you are going to get jammed -- such as when flying a logi.

FOF missiles can work, but they are horrible by virtue of the fact they can randomly decide to shoot drones or other such things. They are very unreliable.

Okay, I know this wouldn't have helped you in the specific case of keeping that Arazu tackled, but if you're in a 5-8 man gang and you have no ability to drive an ECM boat from the field or neutralise it, then the problem isn't ECM, it's your one-dimensional gang composition.

Okay, I know this wouldn't have helped you in the specific case of keeping that Arazu tackled, but if you're in a 5-8 man gang and you have no ability to drive an ECM boat from the field or neutralise it, then the problem isn't ECM, it's your one-dimensional gang composition.

So what you're saying is that in any 5 man gang someone should be rocking a 150 sensor strength Celestis on the off chance that someone is gonna decloak a Falcon?

The ECM mechanic as a whole is utterly unacceptable and NEEDS CHANGED.

-Liang

Actually this is amazing. I need to train an Arazu alt and fit it out with ECCM and a point so I can decloak and tackle Falcons.

Go with an mass ECCMed info linked Blarazu. People using a Falcon like putting it at range from the rest of the fight and you'll generally have time to kill him before they get on top of you. Its a bit niche but you really do have to have such ridiculous counters on hand at all times just in case someone has a Falcon nearby.

-Liang

So what you're saying is, ECM is awesome.

Yes.

It still amazes me how butt-hurt the community gets over ecm, despite the fact most of us don't bat an eyelash at any other popular support tactic such as logi stacking, off-grid boosting, hot dropping, etc.

For some reason the ability to jam someone crosses the invisible line in the sand that makes ~elitepvp~ guys go ballistic. They realize in that moment that no amount of ~skill~ makes up for the fact they failed to predict and counter that falcon. This is ofcourse, wholly unacceptable since it is widely known a high-sp account stacked to the ears with fleet buffs and piloting the latest in fotm should have a license to farm killmails. Anything other than aforementioned scenario is a flaw in game mechanics and requires a nerf.

ECM for life.

Sorry for the delay in replying, I was just fighting outnumbered against a gang that included a Falcon. It didn't last long on grid.

Yes, if your imagination is limited to Celestes, then I suppose you could bring a Celestis. I wouldn't though. Putting all that ECCM on isn't really necessary though - you shold be able to apply RSD before the Falcon gets round to applying a jammer to you. For your frigate gang with info link support, a Keres would take a SeBoed Falcon down to 26 km lock range.

I agree that the random-number ECM is a terrible mechanic. But it's better than the previous binary no-effect/permajam stacking of ECM mods. The game needs a way of turning off RR other than neuting, and I'm yet to see an idea for making ECM a better mechanic without nerfing it into lol-uselessness. Something along the lines of turning off highslot mods might work, but then you get the odd case of Falcons being unable to jam eachother.

Yes.

It still amazes me how butt-hurt the community gets over ecm, despite the fact most of us don't bat an eyelash at any other popular support tactic such as logi stacking, off-grid boosting, hot dropping, etc.

For some reason the ability to jam someone crosses the invisible line in the sand that makes ~elitepvp~ guys go ballistic. They realize in that moment that no amount of ~skill~ makes up for the fact they failed to predict and counter that falcon. This is ofcourse, wholly unacceptable since it is widely known a high-sp account stacked to the ears with fleet buffs and piloting the latest in fotm should have a license to farm killmails. Anything other than aforementioned scenario is a flaw in game mechanics and requires a nerf.

ECM for life.

The most surprising part is, everyone complains that to counter a ECM fit caldari ECM ship, you have to gimp another ship to fullfill the ECCM role, but thats exactly what the other fleet did, they lost one ship from DPS/Tank, to fullfill the ECM role, I don't understand why they think they should be able to counter it without losing one of their DPS/Tanks.

My guess is they have the bruiser mentality 'Well, this is BS, because I can't just outpower this thing doing the same thing that I've been doing forever, so it must be OP''

I say, get over it, either fly prepared, or quit crying when you lose to someone who did fly prepared.

ECM for life

And, if you flew with an attempt to counter, you would face

1 DPS, 1 Falcon
vs
4 DPS, 1 Falconkiller

who wins?

My philosophy is very similar to the 'Don't Fly what you can't afford to lose' philosophy, 'Fly Prepared' yes, you might still lose, but the Falcon was designed to do SPECIFICALLY that, why would you expect to be able to counter it with the exact same things that you use to do mundane, everyday tasks?

I think there's a lot of things about CC that Eve could learn from other MMOs. Not diminishing returns and CC breaks and all that, but just the idea that a single guy shouldn't disable the entire other enemy gang. Some kind of scaling would be great. Something that meant a frigate required more effort to permajam than activating a multispec as an example.

I'd say that despite the lack of diminishing returns (and thus the ability to be perma-CCed!), all defensive CC in Eve is roughly balanced save ECM. And ECM is just ridiculous because up to gang size of 10-15 its simply... incredible. And Scorps are actually able to scale even higher because of their higher HP letting them live through semi massed drone aggro (also, range if thats your bag).

-Liang

And in case you're too ******* stupid to get it: ECM is most unbalanced in the small gang situation. And by "most unbalanced" I mean "horrifically breaks". In a 3v3 there is literally no counter shy of extreme niche fitting a ship.

4 light tackle + Rapier vs. Cynabal with pet Falcon

http://caldari.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=10905316

http://caldari.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=10905360

COMPLETELY UNPOSSIBLE!!11

LOGI is most unbalanced in the fleet situation. And by "most unbalanced," I mean "horrifically breaks." In a 100v100 there is literally no counter shy of extreme alpha.

ECM is terrific against low sensor strength clap-traps in small numbers, but it isn't going to do much in a fleet. Bitching about how something isn't balanced because of your preferred play-style (presumably gate ops in Ama these days) is just laughable.

But do please continue to make the case for ecm nerfs. I quite enjoy reading your narrow worldview bellows for the amusement factor.

You were in a gang of light tackle (with extremely low sensor strength) and were SURPRISED when a Falcon jammed you out???

The funny thing about that is that DPS does scale much better than logistics. Hell, it doesn't take very long before even low alpha ships are 1-2 volleying ****. BTW, no you don't have to instapop something in order to get past logi support... you just have to be able to switch targets.

The question is whether or not you have as much coordination as the logi pilots do on their side. ;-)

-Liang

The reality of the situation, however, is that shield tanking has actually been quite powerful for a number of years. The extra mobility that came with shield tanking was just too valuable. The trend for "nano" shield tanking everthing sub-BC started maybe late 2008 - maybe even earlier? Even then early adopters were commonly scoffed at.

-Liang

And the funnier thing is that it also scales much better than ecm. When is the last time you saw a few dozen falcons in a fleet rather than logi? [And do note, i'm not accusing logi of being in need of "balance," or nerfs of any kind.]

I get the feeling you're trying to draw that line in the sand that designates what is "coordination," vs. what is unfairnerfplz. As I said before, it's amusing as hell to read, but the fact a falcon can ruin the day of a very small gang says nothing about their overall balance.

My philosophy is very similar to the 'Don't Fly what you can't afford to lose' philosophy, 'Fly Prepared' yes, you might still lose, but the Falcon was designed to do SPECIFICALLY that, why would you expect to be able to counter it with the exact same things that you use to do mundane, everyday tasks?

So apparently the definition of "broken in PVP" means 100% guaranteed win, always to you. Wow - I guess maybe we should have left the 0 ROF dreads in game.

-Liang

No, I wasn't surprised. I saw the Falcon on my overview and knew what was about to happen. Its not the first time that its happened, and it won't be the last. It wasn't a surprise; it was a totally foregone conclusion. My point is that the mechanic behind ECM is utterly broken. Its not ok when your gang calculation looks like this:

For a small gang with X people:
X + Falcon > X + rand(5, 7)

-Liang

WTF are you talking about???

That OP does not mean "impossible to beat" or "always wins", but rather just something that is disproportionately powerful or disproportionately hard to counter when compared with other equivalent ways to play. So far as EWAR goes, ECM is very overpowered. There are player actions that can be taken in combat to mitigate the effects a TD or a SD has on you, but none to mitigate ECM. In addition, one ECM ship can disable far more ships far more effectively than a TD or SD ship. That is called "OP".

To further clarify, Liang was complaining about using a single engagement of frigates+Rapier killing Cynabal+Falcon to supposedly disprove Falcon being overpowered.

To draw another parallel, before the Dramiel nerf, Dramiels were killed by Rifters sometimes. That did not make the Dramiels any less overpowered.

Get it?

Ugh.

A Rifter beating a pre-nerf Dram was a freak occurrence that usually hinged on the Dram pilot being a complete ****** or the Rifter pilot being boosted/drugged out the arse.

Falcons are routinely forced off the field or blown up in gang/small fleet engagements and the aforementioned pan-fleet perma-jam scenario is the freak occurrence.

The mechanic itself needs changed, [...] so many effects.

-Liang

By this definition neuts and damps should be nerfed, err, excuse me, "changed," also.

I take a one year break from the game and someone has told me now that Caldari ships are ACTUALLY being used in PVP?!

Have all of you lost your freaking mind? I spec'd Caldari because unlike my commy/liberal-pinko RL attitudes, in internet spaceships I wanted to be a vicious fascist/anarcho-capitalist pig. Then I found out that Caldari ships were complete crap, everyone armor tanked, and none of them could do anything worthwhile in pvp.

There were rare exceptions, you anal-retentive bastards. I know, blah blah blah, Ham Drake. TORPS R GOOD. I saw the video, and, yeah, I can' spend a billion on pirate-faction crap to make it work too. (no I can't, I'm broke, please send ISK)

But besides for soloboating pirate scum, every time you wanted to fleet up you couldn't meet DPS needs because your lowslots were now a massive plate, DC, and some other such crap.

So is it true? Some rumor was that goonswarm was running shield pvp fleets. Another was that Hybrids were actually comparable weapons to other guns. Space stations are filled with fairies and love and CCP is going to give us all a month free to make up for extended downtimes. (figure out which one's I'm serious about)

After a year of playing, DETERMINED to fly the Rokh because it looks like a giant Engine of space-doom, are you actually telling me it could be viable fleet ship?! Because I'm about to plan Gallente and inquiring minds want to know.

/incredulity

PS: Need a solid solo-boat, pirate-scum pvp fit for a caldari cruiser.

Should I post a fraps of me active tanking a domi, drake, and cane with 5 neuts on me? Should I post a video of getting under an Arazu's damps and tackling him anyway? Should I post a video of me flying properly to mitigate TDs?

Maybe I should post a video of a Curse instantly neuting out an entire enemy fleet the instant it lands on the field. Or maybe I should post a video of an Arazu uncloaking and instantly locking 5 people out of a close range fight...

Basically: No. You are wrong.

-Liang

Should I post a fraps of me active tanking a domi, drake, and cane with 5 neuts on me? Should I post a video of getting under an Arazu's damps and tackling him anyway? Should I post a video of me flying properly to mitigate TDs?

Maybe I should post a video of a Curse instantly neuting out an entire enemy fleet the instant it lands on the field. Or maybe I should post a video of an Arazu uncloaking and instantly locking 5 people out of a close range fight...

Basically: No. You are wrong.

-Liang

Have you ever flown ECM bro? ECM locking down huge portions of the enemy fleet is common place - and in small gang warfare locking down the entire enemy fleet is really quite common.

Wheeeeeeeeeeeee.... Basically: ECM is a problem because of the following:
- Ewar ships are force multipliers in all gangs that they scale to. ECM scales up fairly high as far as ewar goes. This means that you are not gimping your gang by bringing a Falcon along unless the gang you are fighting (not your gang) really big. I know for fact that 2x scorps can make a massive difference in a 70 v 50 - to the point that the 50 will easily win. (I was the scorp pilots).
- All other ewar can be mitigated through piloting.
- All other ewar can focuses the ewar ship on 1-2 enemies, not 5-8 enemies.
- Against many ships (T1/T2 cruiser and smaller as a rule) ECM can maintain a 100% guaranteed permajam
- ECM prevents not just damage but also RR, counter ewar, and tackle.

Furthermore, there's literally **** all you can do about it.

The mechanic itself needs changed, and just because you have more than one bonus to your ewar doesn't mean you should have so many effects.

-Liang

I bring you the ship that half of 0.0 is flying right now:

[Rokh, Fleet Rokh]
Damage Control II
Signal Amplifier II
Tracking Enhancer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Large Shield Extender II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Invulnerability Field II

425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L

Large Core Defence Field Extender I
Large Core Defence Field Extender I
Large Core Defence Field Extender I

Looks quite Caldari.

Don't know about that mate, Down in the Curse region it's Drake central, usually mixed in is the odd rapier and Dram.

Tried this with All V skills, and it didn't fit. Would need powermod. Now I'm filled with rage. You can fit this thing with 350mm rails and do just fine with it though.

It amazes me how many of you twats get your panties in a twist over ECM and then spray your tears and ***** juice all over the forums about it.

Grow the **** up and get over it. If you want to cry all day about how ECM is an unstoppable menace then dock the **** up, biomass your toon and go back to your my little ponies and easy-back ovens.

I spent a lot of time training this toon for Recon V and max ECM skills. And even after all those SP I am at risk of losing a Falcon every time I decloak. Unlike all other EW, ECM is chance based, which means there is always a chance I wonGÇÖt get any jams or miss a jam, and then my ******* ship explodes. And IGÇÖm sorry that some of you wet vaginas are sad in the pants when your 6 man frigate gang is not completely unstoppable like you want it to be, and a T2 cruiser is actually able to jam you out. Waah, Waah you poor things.

Also, realize that against any fleet with more people than the Falcon has jams said Falcons can die almost as soon as they uncloak. Then when you are facing a large gang Falcons are virtually useless because they will become insta prime the second they decloak. So in reality Falcons are only really good with small gangs and mediocre against medium gang fleets anyways. Even in large fleet fights, Scorps are almost always the first primary which means very quickly there wonGÇÖt be any ECM of the field during a large fleet engagement.

Even with my extensive SP and bad-ass Falcon piloting skills there is still always a chance I will miss a jam, and always a chance I could die. Falcons are paper thin and any skilled fleet knows how to kill them quickly. IGÇÖm sorry some of you **** tards donGÇÖt. IGÇÖm sorry some of you idiots want your 8 man nano gangs to be able to kill anything in its path, but guess what ladies, that ainGÇÖt gonna ******* happen.

So fly one or learn how to counter them, I donGÇÖt care what you do, just ******* deal with it. Quit your bitching about them, because they are not the God Like, harbingers of Doom you homos are making them out to be. There are dozens of ways to kill them our counter them and that doesnGÇÖt include forum whining.

The very fact that you trained the same skills, and I trained those skills and anyone in the game can train those skills is the very thing that makes ECM balanced. Thanks for making my point.

Either use ECM yourself or shut the **** up about it. Anyone and everyone can use it. It is a smart thing to use because it is a force multiplier and smart people in EVE use ECM, they don't ***** about it on the forums. End of story.

ECCM is basically useless outside of battleships. Most people should know that.

On a solo/very small gang level it is, when a falcon can land multiple jammers on you.

Smabs I kinda agree with you on the idea that cynos and falcon alts make things less fun. But Liang's gay ass idea that Falcon's are not balanced is total bull ****. If only caldari players could use Falcons then yes they would be unbalanced but that is not the case. Anyone can use them. And if Liang wants to go out on a 5 man gang and cry and **** his panties if the other guys bring a Falcon then that is his own damn fault. Either use your own, or plan to counter it but don't kick and scream saying "that's not fair."

Since Liang just wants to complain and not think up counters I will give him one of the simplest falcon counters. A mother ******* stealth bomber. You can use it as a scout and as a falcon killer. The manti already has high sensor strength and with an ECCM they are ******* hard to jam. They are small and fast and can lock as soon as they decloak which means the falcon can't cloak back up. Then you can mwd over and point the falcon, target paint the falcon and start killing the falcon, then soon, no more falcon. Simple as that. But Liang doesn't want to have to "plan" anything and be prepared for any outcome. It sounds like he just wants easy mode.

So you're talking about a specific ship with 2 eccm and an implant set just to avoid getting jammed?

How many sub-bs ships can really get away with eccm?

Frigates, dessies, dictors, most cruisers - forget it.

Shield canes - You would be cutting your tank down to ~40k just to get the falcon down to a 40% jam chance on each cycle. It might be doable with an armor tank.

Drakes - Yeah, you could do it, but you would be sacrificing a web or a significant amount of tank. Still, it's kind of viable. Solo you would still get permajammed.

Myrmidon can get there with an implant set and an armor tank. I think Prometheus was flying something like that but he was still getting jammed half of the time, even sometimes by ecm drones.

I still think the best way to deal with falcons is high damage and good range, ecm of your own or a sniper ship to clear it off the field.

Was that an armor cane with multiple eccm? Do you think that fit is practical with the way eve usually works?

Also the 2 blackbirds were fit with t1 multispecs.

ECM is fine when numbers go to 5+. I don't think I ever said otherwise. I even suggested how people might counter it with a very small gang (i.e. eccm probably isn't optimal).

Once you get to 4 or 5 people it means that you usually have enough dps to clear falcons off the field, have ecm of your own or are able to apply a good proportion of your dps from the unjammed ships. Less than that and a single falcon can permajam (or close to it).

It's cool that you got a good fight like that but an armor cane with double eccm is an extremely situational ship.

Other recons aren't so bad solo. Rapiers and huginns die really easily. Arazu could possibly be bad but if you start close-by it's not so big a deal. Curses are fairly bad for cap hungry ships but are otherwise kill-able. ECM is the only one that completely shuts down multiple ships. There's a reason you don't see sabres with an arazu alt.

Light drones won't force a falcon off the field. The dps is too low.

You could definitely do 2 battlecruisers with eccm but, like I was saying, you're sacrificing a lot of mobility or tank in order to maybe avoid being permajammed if you come across an ecm ship that's a part of a gang that you can fight. It's still quite likely that one or both the battlecruisers will be jammed for the majority of the fight.

Exactly. It is balanced because any 5-7 man gang you face might have their own Falcon. This is no different than if you have a cyno. You pop a cyno on a 5-7 man gang and bam 20 of your friends jump in and kill those clowns is that balanced? not really but since those fucks can also use a cyno and have 20 friends on standby just waiting to kill you makes it balanced because anyone can ******* do it.

Why can you not grasp this concept. Any tool in EVE can be used by anyone with the SP and the isk. That makes it FAIR GAME!!!

Fair is not the same as balanced, we could have a ship that killed by just locking and it would be fair but certainly not balanced. So when something is so strong that you either bring it or you lose it's probably not balanced, I'm not saying falcons are cause I'm a newbie and have no clue but your arguments are horrible.

Single killmails killing jamming ships are not proof of the imbalance. What are needed are statistics about the number of kills Falcons are on vs the number of Falcon losses, and comparing the ratio of those to Arazu/Pilgrim/Rapier.

So, nerf target painting?

What, exactly, is that long list of numbers you just posted? It looks like some sort of rating or popularity chart but seeing as how you didn't bother to document it I have no way to know. :(

Also, Falcons have much higher personal survivability than a Huginn/Rapier. ;-)

It is the 40 KM Webs. Those Maelstroms at the top of that list are running 1400mm Cannons same with the Tempests. Fleet Range Webs hold the target down, most fleet Recons do not even bother to fit the Painters. Shield Battlecruiser Gangs run these some times as well as small gangs to counter kiters. Armor Loki's sometimes do this for Armor Gangs since Minmatar Recons just can not get the Omni Resists / Buffer for a Fleet Armor Tank.

If they didn't have long webs they would be as pathetic as the Bellicose.

Interesting to note that the Scorp is relatively popular in fleet though. Also, lol Gallente. I suppose you can argue that the list reflects fleet environment, and Gallente is a small-gang race - but that doesn't explain the dominance of a certain other race whose mobility advantage supposedly skews it towards small-gang/solo environments.

I remain sceptical of a larger change though as it does not deal with the operation of more intricate mechanics (eg., drones).

Much like Liang have experiences dealing with other forms of EW, other people have experiences dealing with ECM in relatively small gangs, in various ways and even when hitting above their size against multiple ECM. The way the current mechanics roll, it's easier being 10 and dealing with 20 laden with ECM than it is being 3 and facing a single Falcon-alt. That's unfortunate, but claiming it's acutely overpowered or murdering small-gang action as a whole, those are strong words.

I think there's a lot of things about CC that Eve could learn from other MMOs. Not diminishing returns and CC breaks and all that, but just the idea that a single guy shouldn't disable the entire other enemy gang. Some kind of scaling would be great. Something that meant a frigate required more effort to permajam than activating a multispec as an example.

I'd say that despite the lack of diminishing returns (and thus the ability to be perma-CCed!), all defensive CC in Eve is roughly balanced save ECM. And ECM is just ridiculous because up to gang size of 10-15 its simply... incredible. And Scorps are actually able to scale even higher because of their higher HP letting them live through semi massed drone aggro (also, range if thats your bag).

-Liang

The problem is the timezone that I fly in strongly encourages 3-6 man gangs - and even 6 man is actually a bit on the high side. By the time you hit a 10 man gang you're the biggest gang in 20+ jumps and should rightly be considered blobbers. Even the solo PVP that the forums will tell you is flat impossible is completely viable (and commonplace) in this timezone. So when the average gang size is 4 people for 6-8 hours/day, and you have a single ship that can totally disable all of them... it becomes more than a little problematic.

-Liang

You've got to be joking.....They already nerfed ECM like 3 years ago. They swapped the Optimal/Falloff, and now the falcon is sitting within 50k with racials+optimal Rigs. Even closer if you use multi's. So if you got problems with ECM, maybe use ECCM.....or just L2P.
And the comment about CCP could learn from other MMO's...LOLOLOLOL, why dont you go back to Rift or WOW. If there is one thing that CCp should never do, its look at those other fail ass wanna be PVP games and try to force some of that crap down the Eve Throat.

Sounds like a problem with the FC, not a ship or EW.

I'm afraid I don't understand how the fact that the metagame from 9pm - 3am Pacific revolves around 2-5 man gangs has anything at all to do with the FCs in question?

Not that I agree with him, but he's implying you're bad because you don't fit or comp your fleet to counter what you describe as a major problem.

I'll be sure to bring my falcon to Amamake Liang. Then collect your tears as you run in terror.

prepare to be blobbed down , these awesome lowsec pewpew noobs cant do anything else:P
comeon who the hell needs 3 ppl to solo a slasher??

Eagle is the most obvious one that really, really needs a boost.

While they're at it, they should boost fittings on the Caracal, NCaracal, Cerb, and Nighthawk. They almost seem balanced around undersize boosters and ABs and that's just not ok.

-Liang

While they're at it, they should boost fittings on the Caracal, NCaracal, Cerb, and Nighthawk. They almost seem balanced around undersize boosters and ABs and that's just not ok.

-Liang

Except in the case of the Nighthawk, I'd have to say the fitting is fine. Although the Navy Caracal is better in most ways to the Cerb, which is a bit bizarre.

Claiming NH fitting is fine.... r u trolling m8?

-Liang

Except in the case of the Nighthawk, I'd have to say the fitting is fine. Although the Navy Caracal is better in most ways to the Cerb, which is a bit bizarre.

slinging heavy assault missiles from 45-65km out > any navy caracal.

if you have the skills, the cerb will always be better than the navy.

That's the exact opposite of what I said. To expand, the NH's fitting is not fine, it should be able to at least rock a large shield booster. That the Navy Caracal and Cerb can't really active tank is fine since neither can most other shield HACs.

Railguns are good too

eeh, not to sure on that one

I just think that out of all the weapon platforms, rails are just the worst.

Its not that they do their job badly, its just that they do a job that not many people need.

Mediocre dps at range

You can almost always pick a better weapon platform

Also scorch

Sebo's counter damps and by them selves have the added damage advantage of applying damage at range.
Tracking computers counter tracking disruptors and by themselves have the added damage advantage of tracking.
ECCM counters ECM and by themselves have no added advantage, why?

We have the worst counter applied to the best type of ECM. I say give ECCM modules a way to reduce the effectiveness of the other two types of EWAR as well. Dont make it actually boost tracking or range, just make it reduce the effects of damps and disruptors.