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Trind2222
Amarr
Dark-Rising
Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.06.19 20:47:00 -
[31]
Galente realy hates me -3.11
Minmatar -1.22
Sansha -3.4
Blood raiders -3.30
Some thing like that if i rember it right
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Muon Ji
Amarr
Quantum Leap
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Posted - 2007.06.19 20:47:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: Cornucopian
I mean seriously -> low security standing is there for a reason. if you pod for life and slay millions, you don't deserve a spot in safe space. you are an outlaw.
nobody would have given any of the above people I named a second chance. you don't deserve one either.
stop moaning and live with your actions.
/me bangs head on table again and again.
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Zaqar
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Posted - 2007.06.19 20:48:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Cornucopian
I mean seriously -> low security standing is there for a reason. if you pod for life and slay millions, you don't deserve a spot in safe space. you are an outlaw.
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Hari Amun
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2007.06.19 20:53:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Muon Ji
Edited by: Muon Ji on 19/06/2007 20:38:08
Originally by: Hari Amun
what about failing story line missions? last time I looked it increased the
opposite faction standing.
Try reading the OP.
I did. Are you referring to "Declining multiple missions in a row will no longer boost your standing with opposed factions"?
She means normal missions, not storyline (important) missions. If this "fix" covers storyline missions also, I don't know. Do You?
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Callthetruth
Caldari
Logical Logtistics
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Posted - 2007.06.19 20:55:00 -
[35]
turn in tags to the revelant parties , if low with the pirates shoot concord drones in syndicate space
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.06.19 20:56:00 -
[36]
Edited OP and thread title for better clarity.
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New char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.06.19 20:59:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Hari Amun
Originally by: Muon Ji
Edited by: Muon Ji on 19/06/2007 20:38:08
Originally by: Hari Amun
what about failing story line missions? last time I looked it increased the
opposite faction standing.
Try reading the OP.
I did. Are you referring to "Declining multiple missions in a row will no longer boost your standing with opposed factions"?
She means normal missions, not storyline (important) missions. If this "fix" covers storyline missions also, I don't know. Do You?
It covers FAILING missions, regardless of mission type.
Originally by: Callthetruth
turn in tags to the revelant parties , if low with the pirates shoot concord drones in syndicate space
Explain to me how exactly can that help you out of a -6.0 standing.
Also, since when did shooting ships increase ANY standings ?
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New char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Cornucopian
Gallente
Dutch Omega
SYSTEM SHOCK INITIATIVE
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Posted - 2007.06.19 21:02:00 -
[38]
security or standing, difference is the same:
you kill a million anti gallente pirates -> they wont like you. even if you go to the pirates and say please. duh.
live with it.
-----------------------------------------------
"LowSec Pirates are like the seagulls in Finding Nemo: instead if "mine! mine!" all they do is yell "gank! gank!" in local."
In short: brainless |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.06.19 21:13:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Cornucopian
security or standing, difference is the same:
you kill a million anti gallente pirates -> they wont like you. even if you go to the pirates and say please. duh.
live with it.
I am tempted to use som harsh words here, but meh.
First off, if for some reason you HAVE NOT wrecked your Guristas standing (by sistematically refusing to kill Guristas even if the vast majority of missions are against them), you CAN recover even a -10.0 standing with both Blood Raiders and Sansha's nation by moving over to the Guristas and grinding THEIR missions.
How's that for a direct contradiction to your attempted insult ?
Or, how about if you REFUSE to do ANY "kill Gallente" missions for the Caldari soon after you hit -4.99 base Gallente standings, and then move over to the Gallente and gring missions for THEIR lowest agents ?
Or even funnier, you COULD already have the prerequisite standings to do BOTH L4 missions for Gallente AND the Caldari at the same time (by having worked with the proper agent/corps, and just barely enough faction standing).
Your logic is almost inexistant in face of this game's realities.
It is possible to do what you claim is impossible, it's just that much more annoying to pull off.
And you would have needed to know in advance.
Starting a new char, he can manage to do that all just fine. On the other hand, you now CAN'T anymore.
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New char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Zaqar
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Posted - 2007.06.19 21:14:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Cornucopian
security or standing, difference is the same:
you kill a million anti gallente pirates -> they wont like you. even if you go to the pirates and say please. duh.
live with it.
Yes, but with security status there is a way to redeem it - with standings there is not...
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MotherMoon
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Posted - 2007.06.19 21:20:00 -
[41]
yeah sell tags to the blood raiders
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.06.19 21:26:00 -
[42]
Originally by: MotherMoon
yeah sell tags to the blood raiders
Have you actually, personally done that, and can confirm it will increase blood raider standings ?
Because quite frankly I am almost completely sure you heard it from somebody else who just made it up.
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New char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Rooker
Lysian Enterprises
United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2007.06.19 21:37:00 -
[43]
It seems to me that you could create an alt, have them get the mission, gang with them and run it yourself, then have the alt turn in the mission with the gang option. You would get half the standings increase.
You'd need a separate account, burn through some trial accounts for about a month or get a friend with enough standings to help you out.
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SAVE EANM FROM THE NERFBAT! |
daemorhedron
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Posted - 2007.06.19 21:47:00 -
[44]
Well stated in the OP, now revised for even further clarity. I have no problem living with a low standing while I am 'opposed' to them and doing their enemies bidding, but there needs to be a way to ultimately reverse that position for numerous legitimate reasons. Maybe your alliance starts a campaign in a new area of space and you need the standings to even get there. Maybe you switch corps/alliances and moving into the new space won't work for you due to your standings.
Another point worth mentioning is the inherited standings you get when you do join a corp/alliance.
Again we're talking about STANDINGS, not SEC RATING.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.06.19 22:22:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Akita T on 19/06/2007 22:21:48
I can see at least three (maybe four) completely separate ways this could have been done.
And this is just scratching the surface.
1. The change ("exploit fix") could merely apply if the "target of positive derivative standings for mission failure" faction would be at a base positive (as opposed to also negative) standing.
You fix the exploit part (where you could have a newbie char racking up positive standings like mad), yet you maintain the "standings management" part.
2. You can make it so that ship kills give a derived standing too, not just standing decreases towards ship's faction.
Translation, go rat into Angel territory, gain standings with Gallente, Minmatar, Sansha, Guristas, Blood Raiders and several others, but lose standings with Angels, Serpentis, Intaki Syndicate and the Thukker Tribe.
3a. Drop the "-2.00 or above" requirement on each faction/corp/agent standing (or just drop the faction requirement, keep the corp/agent), and just require the usual "one of three standings at proper level" for agents.
alternatively
3b. Introduce an "advanced diplomacy" skill, that when brought up to the maximum, and in combination with L5 Diplomacy will increase a -10.0 standing to a -2.00 standing, thus enabling you access to the lowest possible agents anywhere regardless of base standings.
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New char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.06.20 03:20:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Rooker
It seems to me that you could create an alt, have them get the mission, gang with them and run it yourself, then have the alt turn in the mission with the gang option.
You would get half the standings increase.
You'd need a separate account, burn through some trial accounts for about a month or get a friend with enough standings to help you out.
It's just as I feared it would be (and already mentioned it might be the case), because of the "exploit powerlevelling potential" for standings.
Corp members just tested the new "split rewards" option on TQ.
You get an equal share of LP and ISK... but you do not get any standings increases.
There goes any hope to do it within existing game mechanics.
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New char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Rangkai
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Posted - 2007.06.20 03:32:00 -
[47]
I think that they are really just trying to set us all up for factional warfare.
I think they want people to start picking one faction and sticking with it instead of trying to balance good standings with everyone.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.06.20 03:39:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Akita T on 20/06/2007 03:42:37
You should never be driven in a point-of-no-return situation in EVE, no matter what the situation is.
How evil would it be to suddendly decide you can only run Caldari missions in Caldari ships, and you have to BE a Caldari pilot to work for a Caldari corp ?
Or how about only Caldari pilots being able to train Caldari ship skills ?
The whole basic idea of EVE is that you CAN do anything you want to, if you just put enough effort into it.
You can get out of just about anything somehow. No, I'm not talking about a gatecamp.
At a cost, either in time or ISK, but you nevertheless can.
The option is there, no matter how hard to get.
Standings are the ONLY exception to that rule.
They CAN'T be fixed, no matter how hard you try, once you go beyond a certain point.
That needs fixing.
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New char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Stephar
The High Priest
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Posted - 2007.06.20 03:54:00 -
[49]
I was afraid that CCP would do something like this. Making it so it is impossible to raise your standings after a certain point is extremely short-sighted. If John runs missions for the Caldari Navy, gets bored after a few months, and decides he wants to move to 0.0 to run missions for Sansha... "Sorry John, that part of the game is now closed to you. But since you are bored, have you considered trying out another MMORPG?"
Hopefully CCP will put in something to make this situation reversible.
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Soto ShinDo
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.06.20 04:06:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Stephar
I was afraid that CCP would do something like this. Making it so it is impossible to raise your standings after a certain point is extremely short-sighted. If John runs missions for the Caldari Navy, gets bored after a few months, and decides he wants to move to 0.0 to run missions for Sansha... "Sorry John, that part of the game is now closed to you. But since you are bored, have you considered trying out another MMORPG?"
Hopefully CCP will put in something to make this situation reversible.
/signed
And besides, I'm still lying on the floor laughing. Never seen so many dumb replies in one post. It's really interesting how many people trained 'Advanced write before thinking' to LV 5 
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Ki Tarra
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Posted - 2007.06.20 04:15:00 -
[51]
Okay, I am missing something here. Maybe someone who knows more about this former exploit can explain.
1) Prior to this patch did you get a faction boost to opposing faction for declining regular missions? If yes, than I don't see a problem with stopping that, faction boosts should come from storyline missions. Otherwise you can power level your faction standings.
2) If you are turning down storyline missions to get faction boost to opposing factions then you will NOT be "Declining multiple missions in a row will" as you must complete 16 regular missions to get a storeline mission.
3) With pirate factions you have a standings boost from both Deplomacy and Criminal Connections. I am not entirely clear how these two skills stack together but as best as I can figure that means that with a -10 faction standing, having both of those to skills trained to level 5 (if 20% + 20% = 40%) would still give you an effective standing of -2 thus allowing you to run missions.
Can someone please clarify which of these I am mistaken on?
Originally by: Jeffrey R. Holland
No misfortune is so bad that whining about it won't make it worse
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Ki Tarra
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Posted - 2007.06.20 04:21:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Patch Notes
Missions now have basic gang support. Choosing the ôMe and my gang have completed the missionö option at the end of a mission will cause LP, ISK and Standing rewards to be split equally between up to five people in a gang.
Originally by: Akita T
Corp members just tested the new "split rewards" option on TQ.
You get an equal share of LP and ISK... but you do not get any standings increases.
Have you filed a bug report/petition on this? It would not be the first time a new feature didn't work right the day after it was introduced.
Originally by: Jeffrey R. Holland
No misfortune is so bad that whining about it won't make it worse
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.06.20 04:28:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Ki Tarra
2) If you are turning down storyline missions to get faction boost to opposing factions then you will NOT be "Declining multiple missions in a row will" as you must complete 16 regular missions to get a storeline mission.
That's how I read the patch notes as well. The wording is quite specific.
By extension that would be saying that previously "Declining" multiple missions within the 4 hours window was giving positive opposing faction gains when it should not have been. That seems to line up with some advice I've seen given on raising very low standings. And it makes sense that this would be removed.
Failing Storylines however, takes a great deal more investment, and (I believe) the drawbacks are more severe.
Clarification by CCP would still be nice.
* * *
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.06.20 04:32:00 -
[54]
As a sidenote, and apart from the mechanics question, I find it funny that so many people in this thread believe that killing NPCs should have more permanent consequences than killing players.
* * *
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.06.20 04:34:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Ki Tarra
1) Prior to this patch did you get a faction boost to opposing faction for declining regular missions? If yes, than I don't see a problem with stopping that, faction boosts should come from storyline missions. Otherwise you can power level your faction standings.
Here's the story...
People were abusing the system, picking only L3/L4 missions they wanted out of all available ones by refusing the rest, and being able to still work for a certain agent/corp due to FACTION standings.
Due to how standings increases/decreases work (fails at low standings mean little, at high standings it's a disaster, increases at low standings mean a lot, increases at high standings are negligible), they were able to still keep "just high enough" corp/agent standings (above -5.0 base) to keep doing it indefinitely.
The "fix" was to also punish FACTION standings, so that if they kept doing it, they would no longer be able to access L3/L4 agents, so that this "mission selection" exploit would not work anymore.
This change brought with it the problem that you COULD fail massively (on purpose) missions for "enemy" factions of your target faction, and with a high enough diplomacy skill, even a very low SP character could get quite high faction standings.
It was especially effective to get pirate standings up, due to the "multipliers" and "caps" involved... a +6 standing could take a couple of days to acheive (and would be easily noticeable due to the myriad agents and corps with very bad standings, and no corps with positive ones, yet high faction standings).
I am quite sure nobody actually used that exploit and got away unpunished, it's not something you can easily hide (or at all, actually).
Now, the "further fix" was to delete/ignore the positive derived modifications in case of a DECREASE in faction standings (as opposed to an increase).
Originally by: Ki Tarra
2) If you are turning down storyline missions to get faction boost to opposing factions then you will NOT be "Declining multiple missions in a row will" as you must complete 16 regular missions to get a storeline mission.
I can't be sure about that, but I am 99% certain that option is gone too.
As said, it looks like the condition they put in was to NOT give any derived modifications in case of a faction standing decrease.
So that would mean failing storylines won't work either.
Originally by: Ki Tarra
3) With pirate factions you have a standings boost from both Deplomacy and Criminal Connections. I am not entirely clear how these two skills stack together but as best as I can figure that means that with a -10 faction standing, having both of those to skills trained to level 5 (if 20% + 20% = 40%) would still give you an effective standing of -2 thus allowing you to run missions.
Wrong.
None of the Criminal Connections, Connections and Diplomacy skills "stack".
Only one of the three is ever used, depending on faction standings.
For corps/agents in a faction you have NEGATIVE standings with, Diplomacy is used.
For factions that have a positive standing with CONCORD and with you, Connections is used.
For factions that have a negative standing with CONCORD and with you, Criminal Connections is used.
You can have for instance a Minmatar corp/agent with high standings, but it would get modified by Diplomacy (not Connections) in case you have a negative Minmatar faction standing.
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New char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.06.20 04:38:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Akita T on 20/06/2007 04:41:34
Originally by: Ki Tarra
Originally by: Patch Notes
Missions now have basic gang support. Choosing the “Me and my gang have completed the mission” option at the end of a mission will cause LP, ISK and Standing rewards to be split equally between up to five people in a gang.
Originally by: Akita T
Corp members just tested the new "split rewards" option on TQ.
You get an equal share of LP and ISK... but you do not get any standings increases.
Have you filed a bug report/petition on this? It would not be the first time a new feature didn't work right the day after it was introduced.
Yes, I did bugreport it a while ago already.
Still, I'm afraid it's actually INTENTIONAL, and not a bug.
While we're on the subject, I also bugreported and petitioned the ORIGINAL "FIX" (the one with faction standing decrease on mission failure) when it was introduced a long time ago, warning that it COULD be used to boost faction standings due to the way new character creation (Diplomacy L5 from the start FTW) worked.
It only took them half a year to "fix" it.
__
The patch notes say "gang support for missions will also be added, splitting the bounty for success evenly between participants".
Note it saying BOUNTY, not rewards.
As mentioned, the ability to share standings would just promote powerlevelling standings, and I can see why CCP would want to avoid that.
It would have been very useful though for missionrunner player corps, but oh well, pre-nerf to avoid abuse FTW.
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New char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
Vigilance Infinitas
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Posted - 2007.06.20 05:15:00 -
[57]
I agree, they should allow some way to recover from -5.0 or worse faction standing.
BUYING ZAINOU 'DEADEYE' ZGL1000 IMPLANTS, PAYING TOP DOLLAR, CONVO/MAIL IN-GAME |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.06.20 05:22:00 -
[58]
Apparently, you DO get a standing increase for "splitting rewards".
However, it is much smaller as the usual standing increase, so small that my corp members haven't even noticed it at first.
I'll get back to you when I get more info myself.
_
New char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Ki Tarra
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Posted - 2007.06.20 05:24:00 -
[59]
What I was not aware of was that declining a regular mission gave any sort of change to faction standings. I just tested this on an alt, you do get a decrease in all three, agent, corp and faction standing. In any case, I would not think that this would be such a huge problem. Now you are required to wait the 4 hours if you want to be picky about what missions you select, and that sounds fair to me.
Now can anyone confirm that failing a storeline mission will not increase opposing faction standings, or do I need to run 16 missions on an alt to verify this? To assume that standings modifiers are the same for regular and storeline missions when failed does not seem justified to me given that they are different when completed successfully. I do not see why they would not patch it so that failing a regular mission has no derived standings changes at all, while leaving both the positive and negitive derived standings changes as is for both failing and completing storyline missions.
As for the Criminal connections skill, I just finished training it up. You are right that they do not stack. Could you clearify for me when it does apply. Your previous post stated "For factions that have a negative standing with CONCORD and with you, Criminal Connections is used." Is it used for pirate faction that you have positive standings for in place of Connections? It would seem silly for it to apply to to pirate faction that you have a negitive standing for, when Deplomacy has that effect and is Rank 1 instead of Rank 3.
As for, crippling your access to agents, the new gang standing increases should help fix that once they get it working properly.
Originally by: Jeffrey R. Holland
No misfortune is so bad that whining about it won't make it worse
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.06.20 05:31:00 -
[60]
Corrected typo in post above.
It should have said "For factions that have a negative standing with CONCORD and positive with you, Criminal Connections is used."
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New char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
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