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Nesa Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:34:00 - [31] Whatever the result stuff like this needs to go to a senior GM to be delt with immediately. Because the more stuff happens the harder it is to sort it out. (If the POS gets destroyed, it would probably be hard to justify giving it back)
Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:43:00 - [32] It's amazing how people always find creative ways to take advantage from the tiniest and most obscure loopholes this game offers. They find them all, and they are all scrupelously exploitet. Juwi Kotch JOIN NOW, KLICK SIG!
Cecille	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:44:00 - [33] Originally by: Juwi Kotch It's amazing how people always find creative ways to take advantage from the tiniest and most obscure loopholes this game offers. They find them all, and they are all scrupelously exploitet. Juwi Kotch I blame the british :-)
Urdatorn	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:45:00 - [34] Originally by: Juwi Kotch It's amazing how people always find creative ways to take advantage from the tiniest and most obscure loopholes this game offers. They find them all, and they are all scrupelously exploitet. Juwi Kotch no, the funny part is morons comming to the forums claiming that it's a "fully legit tactic!!!!111" :D
Sinola	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:46:00 - [35] Imho its a clear exploit: It abuses game mechanics and weaknesses in game mechanics to gain an advantage. A long DT is such an weakness in game mechanics. What else is an exploit then ?
Mifter Hogdido Amarr The 0ri	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:57:00 - [36] In reply to the Original Poster, I find this interesting since I was considering war dec'ing a corporation in the exact manner pre-patch, but a small, say again 'small' percentage of my corporation did not want to. And Nicole KholdStare, its not bad sportsmanship, its tactics. ----------------- Its "the" by the way, not whatever the made up use of letters "teh" means.
Creeco	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:58:00 - [37] Originally by: Bizz Lizz Edited by: Bizz Lizz on 20/06/2007 11:03:09 Quite lame in my eyes to use a patch deployment as a way that the enemy doesn't get the 24 hours to prepare, especially to start attacks on pos, before the enemy can adapt to the changes in the patch. War'deccing right before a 24h patch makes the intention really obvious. The 24h are there because CCP wanted it that way and said so and not to find a way how to get around it. Yes, bad sportsman ship. If I was GM I'd declare the war'dec invalid and say: 'Try again in 24 hours !' just to make clear that abusing such things won't be tolerated. exactly.. pretty damn lame IMO, cowardly too
Creeco	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:59:00 - [38] Originally by: Mifter Hogdido In reply to the Original Poster, I find this interesting since I was considering war dec'ing a corporation in the exact manner pre-patch, but a small, say again 'small' percentage of my corporation did not want to. And Nicole KholdStare, its not bad sportsmanship, its tactics. dude it's not tactics when you do it in a mannar that the corp you're deccing can't defend themselves
Mifter Hogdido Amarr The 0ri	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:24:00 - [39] It is tactics in my eyes and nothing you say will ever change it. And by the way they can defend themselves by shooting back, forming gangs, etc. Also, did you see that I pointed out that we didn't do it, that it was a thought? On a side note they were asking for it with their actions, the opposing team, without any provoking from us. ----------------- Its "the" by the way, not whatever the made up use of letters "teh" means.
DeODokktor Caldari Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:34:00 - [40] There's far too many alts who are posting either 1)this was our corp - or - 2)it was wrong use your mains.. it carries more influence.
Ms Caretaker Minmatar The Peoples Front of Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:49:00 - [41] Did they fix the bug with POS then? As even when you war dec'd someone you couldn't attack a POS legally in high sec and got concordokkened. Is this fixed now? TPFM - The original Minmatar Terrorists. Podding Amarrians For Years!
Covert Oops	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:57:00 - [42] Edited by: Covert Oops on 20/06/2007 19:02:24 LetÆs talk about exploiters here for a minute. The target corporation had a CEO with high standings form an alt corp for a POS. They had high standings with Caldari and anchored their POS. The CEO quit and joined their main corporation while their R&D alts with zero standings joined the corp so they never lost high standings. That and they were building cap ships in high sec, 25% faster in a POS. No itÆs not an exploit but CCP made it so large ship assembly arrays can't be anchored anymore in high sec for a reason. They were using an alt corp to try and hide the POS from would be attackers and they had all of their main characters in another corporation with roles. A war dec was made against their main corporation, however they liked to hug the station a lot and some of them warped to one of the planets/moons and hey there is this nice pos but it was in another corp. Upon investigation, the founder of the corp was a member of their main corporation which was war decced. Upon reading the patch notes we decided to do the following: 1. Retract the war from their main corporation (EmpiresMod), 2 days prior to the war dec against their alt corp. This was to prevent them from defending their POS within EmpiresMod corp. 2. War dec the POS alt corp. If they would have read the patch notes, they could have assumed that the POS would have got attacked. There is no doubt in my mind that they know we found out about their POS and were very interested in taking it out. They didnÆt read the patch notes. The war dec was intended to be as short notice as possible. Knowing how these guys borderline exploit all of the time, it's a bit hypocritical to expect we wouldnÆt do the same. They had 2 hours to prepare and they could have easily put over 24 hours of stront in the tower, but they only put 9 hours of stront. This was an error on their part. Then on top of that, they came in with logistic alt neutrals and started to heal the POS. I tested this with one of my neutral alts and I received a warning saying that I would get flagged for healing the POS, but I never got flagged. Blatantly a bug and therefore an exploit, which it was deemed an exploit by the GMÆs shortly after. Now, the defenses they had at the POS were very poor. Aramachi 7 m3 Photon Scattering Array Large Ship Assembly Array Deat Dissipation Array 7 labs 5 large artillery batts 1 large beam Laser batts Basically, 6 large turrets. Which if they would have read the patch notes: Quote: All turret structures have had their ranges and tracking revised based on their turret equivalents, so they work best against their intended targets: cruisers for small turrets, battleships for medium turrets and capital ships for large turrets. There canÆt be any dreads used in high sec so it was a little silly to have LARGE turret batteries as a defense when mediums are designed to be used against battleships. They only had large turrets. They had no clue what they were doing. Now it had 9 hours of stront. They could have repaired the guns and anchored new medium guns during that time if they knew this: Quote: You can now anchor structures that only require power while the control tower is in reinforced mode. Basically, they didnÆt read the patch notes, they lost their prized possession that was previously invulnerable. Waah Waah Waah Oh, and before I finish, they could have avoided this with a simple apology and a surrender fee, which was 250m or 500m I forget, they arrogantly refused. It was cheap war deccing before DT but they still had time to prepare (over 2 hours) and if they would have read the patch notes and had a clue of what they were doing, it might have been a different story. And one last thing, they used dreads in high sec to do level 4's.
Messerschmitt facility Amarr Shinra	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:01:00 - [43] I would petition under exploit. That should get a response quickly _________________________________ A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking...
Covert Oops	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:08:00 - [44] Originally by: GingerBeef Originally by: jamesw And using alts to repair the POS, knowing full well they are not being criminally flagged towards the aggressor is not exploitive? Come on Pot. Kettle. Black. oh.. and post with your main(s) Actually no alts were used, In aiding this pos. And where does it say there is a bug present with the pos? Did patch notes say "oh by the way flagging for aiding a pos at war isn't working guys"? No it did not. Originally by: Aramachi Local Chimeitekina Chikara > anyone here have a shield transfer support ship, I'll pay for you to help me no ganging involved?
GingerBeef	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:19:00 - [45] Im sorry but how do we border line exploit in any way? We saw the patch notes, we knew the pos was not in a anti battleship defensive setup because we would have changed it during a valid 24 hour warning. the guns and the setup you described was a mear display. 2 hours warning? we had to download the patch and get in cue to get onto the server we had less warning then that. You guys took complete advantage of the fact of the 24 hour warning we wouldn't be physically able to change anything for 22 of those hours. Something tells me the Dev's will take a look at the abuse of the 24hour warning during patch deployment as they are not "part of the gameplay" as you Cant actually play eve during a patch deployment. and save your time scape goating with "didnt read the patch notes" We knew exactly how to setup a pos for anti battleship, how many empire pos's do you see with 100% defenses 100% of every day every day of the week? You don't simply because you are supposed to see a war coming and change your setup. Now you did not even mention in local that we were not flagged too you. For everyone trying to aid the pos it gave the same warning as it would when you remote someone at war, there was simply no way to tell for sure. Then a GM did come and forced us to stop, now we could only sit and watch the pos go down as opposed to taking our chances with a working flagging system, who is the real victim of this bug?
Covert Oops	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:23:00 - [46] Edited by: Covert Oops on 20/06/2007 19:24:04 Originally by: GingerBeef Im sorry but how do we border line exploit in any way? We saw the patch notes, we knew the pos was not in a anti battleship defensive setup because we would have changed it during a valid 24 hour warning. the guns and the setup you described was a mear display. 2 hours warning? we had to download the patch and get in cue to get onto the server we had less warning then that. You guys took complete advantage of the fact of the 24 hour warning we wouldn't be physically able to change anything for 22 of those hours. Something tells me the Dev's will take a look at the abuse of the 24hour warning during patch deployment as they are not "part of the gameplay" as you Cant actually play eve during a patch deployment. and save your time scape goating with "didnt read the patch notes" We knew exactly how to setup a pos for anti battleship, how many empire pos's do you see with 100% defenses 100% of every day every day of the week? You don't simply because you are supposed to see a war coming and change your setup. Now you did not even mention in local that we were not flagged too you. For everyone trying to aid the pos it gave the same warning as it would when you remote someone at war, there was simply no way to tell for sure. Then a GM did come and forced us to stop, now we could only sit and watch the pos go down as opposed to taking our chances with a working flagging system, who is the real victim of this bug? Why didnt you just load up a bunch of stront? You had plenty of time to do that at least. You spent more time anchoring more hardeners when you could have just loaded up stront. And maybe your POS shouldnt have been in a R&D alt corp.
GingerBeef	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:45:00 - [47] hahaha Exploit to heal the pos shield, however we were told NOT to do it and ceased at the first GM warnings, So who's the victim of that bug? What was that expression, Pot. Kettle. Black.? Due to flagging not working we were unable to help what so ever. Nice distorted logic regarding 12 of you vs what would be 20 + 6, you're using the total players in our corp attributes VS your online members not your total members. 36 players devoted to doing what they get paid for vs 20 mission runners. Really cute. You sound like you already know you've been caught exploiting the system for an unfair advantage. OH lets not forget we couldn't join the alt corp in 50 minutes with roles, forgetting that detail again aren't you? Funny, what would you have done if the patch deployment was 1 hour long, like a standard down time?
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:53:00 - [48] Edited by: Janu Hull on 20/06/2007 20:51:53 Originally by: Urdatorn Originally by: Juwi Kotch It's amazing how people always find creative ways to take advantage from the tiniest and most obscure loopholes this game offers. They find them all, and they are all scrupelously exploitet. Juwi Kotch no, the funny part is morons comming to the forums claiming that it's a "fully legit tactic!!!!111" :D Even funnier tagged with the sad mantra, "But EVE is supposed to be hardcore." Usually said by someone who usually flies a speed rigged F.agabond to escape "hardcore" PvP
Covert Oops	Posted - 2007.06.20 21:17:00 - [49] Edited by: Covert Oops on 20/06/2007 21:17:50 Originally by: GingerBeef hahaha Exploit to heal the pos shield, however we were told NOT to do it and ceased at the first GM warnings, So who's the victim of that bug? Both of us. It took us 2 hours longer because of the healers, but mostly you. The target was the large ship assembly array, we were thinking of leaving the labs alone, but we ganked everything due to the healing effort costing us more time. Originally by: GingerBeef Nice distorted logic regarding 12 of you vs what would be 20 + 6, you're using the total players in our corp attributes VS your online members not your total members. 36 players devoted to doing what they get paid for vs 20 mission runners. Really cute. You sure had a lot of alts around the place, I'm sure you could have defended the pos if you didnt try to use a lame alt corp to protect the pos or hide who it's real owner was. Originally by: GingerBeef You sound like you already know you've been caught exploiting the system for an unfair advantage. Funny, what would you have done if the patch deployment was 1 hour long, like a standard down time? Nah, CCP just decided to take the servers down just as we decided to war dec and we had to do it before the server went boom, but if you had 24 hours to prepare, we'd just bring more firepower, and we were prepared for that. We actually expected to have like 3 days of stront in the tower. What a nice surprise when it only had 9 hours. Thanks. Originally by: GingerBeef OH lets not forget we couldn't join the alt corp in 50 minutes with roles, forgetting that detail again aren't you? Probably bad idea to have POS alt corps isnt it. Maybe this means the end of pos alt corps. Man, and you could have bought yourself out of trouble for an apology and 250m ISK. I guess it's too late now.
EFF ONEF1 Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.20 21:25:00 - [50] the wardec timer should be paused during DT. as should training. anything with a timer should be paused when the server is not up. ----------------------------------------------- I have been known to take shuttles to various parts of 0.0 Why? Don't really know. I'm not an alt. One character, one account.
Doctor Pangloss	Posted - 2007.06.20 21:38:00 - [51] Originally by: Covert Oops Next time, don't be so arrogant towards other players, you really made somebody mad to warrant such a coordinated attack like this. Taking down a large pos in high sec without a dread isn't very easy. The corporation that owned the POS was EmpiresMod (through an alt corp). It was a high sec POS with a LAR, grandfathered in. It is a corp mostly made up of mission runners, and the LAR was part novelty and part industrial, not a PVP asset. I don't know why they posted this thread with an alt. The mercenary corporation hired to destroy said POS was Omniscient Order. They are one of about 6 different corps hired to war dec EmpiresMod in recent months, all hired by the same person - somebody with a vendetta (possibly even from something that happened outside of the game) but nobody knows for sure who it is. Who hired the mercenaries? Why not step up and admit your identity, if you feel so grievously wronged by some alleged "arrogance" and take responsibility? How big of an "offense" could it have been if nobody is even sure who the hell you are? You're the victor, I guess. Did you pay your mercenaries to make these forum posts, too? As long as they are fighting all your other battles for you, I guess they may as well step in and do so here as well. Omniscient Order - you were paid to do a job, you succeeded, congratulations. But don't be so sure that what you were paid to do was "warranted" or the anger of your employer was somehow justified. You don't know that. Maybe it makes you feel more noble about hunting down mission runners and blowing up high sec POS's or something to imagine that you actually know enough about the situation to make pronouncements like that, but I don't buy it. Regardless of the debate about the downtime war dec, whoever set all this up is still an anonymous coward who apparently is so petty and insecure about his disputes in an online game that he has to pay people to take his side. {Yes, I am posting with an alt, at the request of my CEO, who doesn't like us to get involved in forum p**sing matches. Apparently, if you sound too "arrogant" in your posts some people might find themselves warranted in hiring mercs to blow up your POS.}
Covert Oops	Posted - 2007.06.20 21:44:00 - [52] Originally by: Doctor Pangloss The corporation that owned the POS was EmpiresMod (through an alt corp). It was a high sec POS with a LAR, grandfathered in. It is a corp mostly made up of mission runners, and the LAR was part novelty and part industrial, not a PVP asset. I don't know why they posted this thread with an alt. It's a market pvp asset. Build battleships, capital ships, 25% faster in high security? That's one hell of an advantage, and thats the only reason why the POS was a target to begin with. Originally by: Doctor Pangloss The mercenary corporation hired to destroy said POS was Omniscient Order. They are one of about 6 different corps hired to war dec EmpiresMod in recent months, all hired by the same person - somebody with a vendetta (possibly even from something that happened outside of the game) but nobody knows for sure who it is. I hear there are a lot of defectors from EmpiresMod, I also hear the CEO is really abusive. It's probably their own ex-members that are mad at the CEO, so take a look and see who has recently left the corp and what terms they left on. Originally by: Doctor Pangloss Who hired the mercenaries? Why not step up and admit your identity, if you feel so grievously wronged by some alleged "arrogance" and take responsibility? How big of an "offense" could it have been if nobody is even sure who the hell you are? You're the victor, I guess. Did you pay your mercenaries to make these forum posts, too? As long as they are fighting all your other battles for you, I guess they may as well step in and do so here as well. Forum posts are free. Originally by: Doctor Pangloss Omniscient Order - you were paid to do a job, you succeeded, congratulations. But don't be so sure that what you were paid to do was "warranted" or the anger of your employer was somehow justified. You don't know that. Maybe it makes you feel more noble about hunting down mission runners and blowing up high sec POS's or something to imagine that you actually know enough about the situation to make pronouncements like that, but I don't buy it. Thats the nice thing about merc's they are paid for a job, nothing personal, just business. Originally by: Doctor Pangloss Regardless of the debate about the downtime war dec, whoever set all this up is still an anonymous coward who apparently is so petty and insecure about his disputes in an online game that he has to pay people to take his side. {Yes, I am posting with an alt, at the request of my CEO, who doesn't like us to get involved in forum p**sing matches. Apparently, if you sound too "arrogant" in your posts some people might find themselves warranted in hiring mercs to blow up your POS.} Wait, so your telling us to post with our mains but you use alts to post? Hell, the original poster of this is an alt. It's an alt eat alt world baby.
Audri Fisher Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.06.20 21:47:00 - [53] It's cheap, not tactics.
Trak Cranker Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 21:50:00 - [54] Edited by: Trak Cranker on 20/06/2007 21:49:33 When will you lay of the patch notes? That they said attacking POSs was fixed, is entirely beside the point. They should have had 24h(minus a normal DT) to get ready. Saying that they should have had the tower prepared for an attack - just in case - is not an argument, that justifies anything. Its like saying that you should have the Monopoly money in a steel vault while playing, after someone just grabbed a pile from the bank. "You knew it could happen!". Its a childish validation of a lame exploitation of loophole created by out of game circumstances. Under normal circumstances, and even knowing that they were about to be declared upon, leaving a high sec POS unifitted for defense is an entirely valid solution - to be changed upon the actual recieval of a wardec. Whether or not they prepared it for war, before a war was declared - is so far beside the point that its unbelievable that anyone conscious enough to turn on a computer and write on the forum, let alone play Eve, can get it into their head to bring it up as one. And to the guy further up: If this is tactics, so is cutting your powerline. They took advantage of an out of game event, to gain an advantage in game.
Doctor Pangloss	Posted - 2007.06.20 21:57:00 - [55] Originally by: Covert Oops Wait, so your telling us to post with our mains but you use alts to post? Hell the original poster of this is an alt. It's an alt eat alt world baby. Nope, wasn't telling anybody that they had to post with their mains. I was suggesting that the person who went to all this trouble to pursue a grudge against the EmpiresMod CEO should man up and reveal his identity if he's been so terribly wronged somehow. Of course, he won't. As far as myself is concerned - like I said - only reason I posted with an alt was at the request of my corp CEO who doesn't want to get involved. If I was the one hiring hordes of mercenaries to war dec people I had a problem with, I'd have war dec'd with my own corp first and had it out in the open.
IAmurDaddyBee	Posted - 2007.06.20 22:14:00 - [56] Just so you all know.. This was a ruse, we used lots of alts to try and ruse the guys in the game to see what they would say.. Hope everyone enjoy'd it.
Covert Oops	Posted - 2007.06.20 22:15:00 - [57] Edited by: Covert Oops on 20/06/2007 22:18:31 Originally by: Doctor Pangloss If I was the one hiring hordes of mercenaries to war dec people I had a problem with, I'd have war dec'd with my own corp first and had it out in the open. I don't think so, many people don't want to get war decced back into oblivion. That's the risk the merc corp takes. As I said earlier, it seems the corp has had a lot of defectors, and they have talked about how the CEO was threatening them. Maybe it's his own ex-members against him who he has wronged. Just a suggestion. Originally by: Audri Fisher It's cheap, not tactics. Such is life in EVE. Originally by: Trak Cranker Edited by: Trak Cranker on 20/06/2007 21:49:33 When will you lay of the patch notes? That they said attacking POSs was fixed, is entirely beside the point. They should have had 24h(minus a normal DT) to get ready. Saying that they should have had the tower prepared for an attack - just in case - is not an argument, that justifies anything. Its like saying that you should have the Monopoly money in a steel vault while playing, after someone just grabbed a pile from the bank. "You knew it could happen!". Its a childish validation of a lame exploitation of loophole created by out of game circumstances. Under normal circumstances, and even knowing that they were about to be declared upon, leaving a high sec POS unifitted for defense is an entirely valid solution - to be changed upon the actual recieval of a wardec. Whether or not they prepared it for war, before a war was declared - is so far beside the point that its unbelievable that anyone conscious enough to turn on a computer and write on the forum, let alone play Eve, can get it into their head to bring it up as one. And to the guy further up: If this is tactics, so is cutting your powerline. They took advantage of an out of game event, to gain an advantage in game. I don't know: 1. If I had a war dec against me. 2. And I had an alt corp with a pos. 3. And I knew that the merc corp knew about my POS and wanted to gank it. 4. And there is an upcoming patch where in the patch notes it states that POS's can be attacked. 5. And the merc corp drops their war dec against my main corporation 2 days prior to patch day. Maybe it's not such a bad idea to go prepare my POS.
Captain Agemman Minmatar Legio Ultra	Posted - 2007.06.20 22:29:00 - [58] Originally by: Covert Oops [...] Nah, CCP just decided to take the servers down just as we decided to war dec and we had to do it before the server went boom, [...] So cute.
Covert Oops	Posted - 2007.06.20 22:32:00 - [59] Originally by: Captain Agemman Originally by: Covert Oops [...] Nah, CCP just decided to take the servers down just as we decided to war dec and we had to do it before the server went boom, [...] So cute. It's cheap. Yes. I know. Thanks for letting me know. It's not an exploit. YOU LOSE. GOOD DAY, SIR!
Trak Cranker Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 22:34:00 - [60] Originally by: Covert Oops Originally by: Trak Cranker [ Whether or not they prepared it for war, before a war was declared - is so far beside the point that its unbelievable that anyone conscious enough to turn on a computer and write on the forum, let alone play Eve, can get it into their head to bring it up as one. I don't know: 1. If I had a war dec against me. 2. And I had an alt corp with a pos. 3. And I knew that the merc corp knew about my POS and wanted to gank it. 4. And there is an upcoming patch where in the patch notes it states that POS's can be attacked. 5. And the merc corp drops their war dec against my main corporation 2 days prior to patch day. Maybe it's not such a bad idea to go prepare my POS. Just figured it warranted a repeat.

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