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Wardecing a corp 1 minute before 20ish? hour patch deployment

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Gank Bait	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:42:00 - [1] Is this actually acceptable? I only mention this because Asking a GM will take a week in which would be 6 days too late for an answer How fair is it when you download your patch and wait in cue to get onto the server you find out you have a war that starts in 50 minutes? Your corp happens to have a Hi-sec POS that would require the anchoring of hardener arrays, ECM batteries, anti battleship Turrets and all that jazz But due to the unfair advantage engineered by the wardecing corp its hard to do that when their already firing on your POS Unable to wardec back, or Hire help for another 24 hours the fight would be over in hours anyways. And this 1 sided fighting is condoned? Unable to deploy any defenses due to the exposure to a fleet. Not to mention 10 minutes between starting an anchoring proccess and the structure actually coming online. I honestly can not believe this kind of exploitive play is allowed. thoughts anyone?
Allialla	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:47:00 - [2] k I dont usualy post but i cant get away frm the irony of this. You'r named Gank Bait and your complaining about being wardeced?? troll
Nicole KholdStare Gallente QUANT Corp. Southern Connection	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:50:00 - [3] Edited by: Nicole KholdStare on 20/06/2007 10:49:28 Well it sure shows a lack of sportsmanship but I don't think it can be classified as an exploit - if only for the precedent it would create. It sucks but not as much as your opponents...I'd say be the better man about this, take the loss and then work on payback...and you know revenge is best served cold
Lady Trade	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:53:00 - [4] how in gods name is this an exploit? you can simply wardec them back... you just should have thought of this before patchday (like they obviously did). i never heard of any rules that would forbid you to do things before patchday or DT for that matter so is it an exploit? most certainly not... is it forbidden anywhere? i doubt it... is it "kind" and "friendly" and "hellokittyonline'ish"? not exactly.
Mastin Dragonfly Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:54:00 - [5] Originally by: Lady Trade how in gods name is this an exploit? you can simply wardec them back... you just should have thought of this before patchday (like they obviously did). i never heard of any rules that would forbid you to do things before patchday or DT for that matter so is it an exploit? most certainly not... is it forbidden anywhere? i doubt it... is it "kind" and "friendly" and "hellokittyonline'ish"? not exactly. Well, the 24 hour warning period is there for a reason, not being able to do anything during that warning period kindda defeats the purpose of it.
Lady Trade	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:00:00 - [6] Edited by: Lady Trade on 20/06/2007 11:00:13 yeah i agree with you there but since they didn't actually do anything out of the ordinary game mechanics i really don't see the problem. if i'm fighting an austrailian corp then i might also try and gank their POS when they are at work or asleep.. and if i wardect them then i'd also try and plan it so it's a practical time for me and a ****ty one for the hostiles. if CCP thought it was an illegal trick then they could simply pause the 24h period during DT.
Bizz Lizz	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:03:00 - [7] Edited by: Bizz Lizz on 20/06/2007 11:03:09 Quite lame in my eyes to use a patch deployment as a way that the enemy doesn't get the 24 hours to prepare, especially to start attacks on pos, before the enemy can adapt to the changes in the patch. War'deccing right before a 24h patch makes the intention really obvious. The 24h are there because CCP wanted it that way and said so and not to find a way how to get around it. Yes, bad sportsman ship. If I was GM I'd declare the war'dec invalid and say: 'Try again in 24 hours !' just to make clear that abusing such things won't be tolerated.
jamesw Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:05:00 - [8] Originally by: Gank Bait Is this actually acceptable? I only mention this because Asking a GM will take a week in which would be 6 days too late for an answer How fair is it when you download your patch and wait in cue to get onto the server you find out you have a war that starts in 50 minutes? Your corp happens to have a Hi-sec POS that would require the anchoring of hardener arrays, ECM batteries, anti battleship Turrets and all that jazz But due to the unfair advantage engineered by the wardecing corp its hard to do that when their already firing on your POS Unable to wardec back, or Hire help for another 24 hours the fight would be over in hours anyways. And this 1 sided fighting is condoned? Unable to deploy any defenses due to the exposure to a fleet. Not to mention 10 minutes between starting an anchoring proccess and the structure actually coming online. I honestly can not believe this kind of exploitive play is allowed. thoughts anyone? And using alts to repair the POS, knowing full well they are not being criminally flagged towards the aggressor is not exploitive? Come on Pot. Kettle. Black. oh.. and post with your main(s) -- Latest Vid: Domination!
Gank Bait	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:12:00 - [9] Originally by: Lady Trade yeah i agree with you there but since they didn't actually do anything out of the ordinary game mechanics i really don't see the problem. if CCP thought it was an illegal trick then they could simply pause the 24h period during DT. Well the 24 hour period is there to give someone time to react is it not? Now what are the odds of me knowing it was coming if they timed it so close to downtime that I wouldn't have even seen the concord eve mail before eve closed everyone out for the patch? I certainly would not have had the time to hire help or deploy the correct pos layout 3 seconds before downtime when the wardec was formed. Now could I? I think thats far beyond ordinary game mechanics, thats taking a long walk around them. with no way to shed the damage or deploy anything that could hold them off, they had a whole 24 hour head start. they only need about 12 to kill the pos. And guess what else, due to yet another POS bug, you're not flagged to the wardecer's when you're remote shielding the pos from any other corp. Which means a GM comes by and forces you to stop, now it would have been alot more fair if the flagging worked and you take your chances agianst the enemy while trying to remote the pos. So now all the cards are in the attackers hands, via using a patch to run down the 24 hour warning of wardec and a bug that means a gm will have to ban anyone trying to aid the pos. Yup really fair. Btw what is with the cheap insult about my name? its an alt name of course.
GingerBeef	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:17:00 - [10] Originally by: jamesw And using alts to repair the POS, knowing full well they are not being criminally flagged towards the aggressor is not exploitive? Come on Pot. Kettle. Black. oh.. and post with your main(s) Actually no alts were used, In aiding this pos. And where does it say there is a bug present with the pos? Did patch notes say "oh by the way flagging for aiding a pos at war isn't working guys"? No it did not.
Arcane Mystery Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:19:00 - [11] Originally by: Gank Bait Originally by: Lady Trade yeah i agree with you there but since they didn't actually do anything out of the ordinary game mechanics i really don't see the problem. if CCP thought it was an illegal trick then they could simply pause the 24h period during DT. Well the 24 hour period is there to give someone time to react is it not? Now what are the odds of me knowing it was coming if they timed it so close to downtime that I wouldn't have even seen the concord eve mail before eve closed everyone out for the patch? I certainly would not have had the time to hire help or deploy the correct pos layout 3 seconds before downtime when the wardec was formed. Now could I? I think thats far beyond ordinary game mechanics, thats taking a long walk around them. with no way to shed the damage or deploy anything that could hold them off, they had a whole 24 hour head start. they only need about 12 to kill the pos. And guess what else, due to yet another POS bug, you're not flagged to the wardecer's when you're remote shielding the pos from any other corp. Which means a GM comes by and forces you to stop, now it would have been alot more fair if the flagging worked and you take your chances agianst the enemy while trying to remote the pos. So now all the cards are in the attackers hands, via using a patch to run down the 24 hour warning of wardec and a bug that means a gm will have to ban anyone trying to aid the pos. Yup really fair. Btw what is with the cheap insult about my name? its an alt name of course. Just wondering... why is it CCP's or the attackers fault that your POS had no defensive measures in the first place? I know that before the patch there was a bug making anyone attacking a POS in high sec get concorded even though it was a wartarget POS but the patch notes has been out for a while. You had plenty of time to arm your POS before the patch deployment. Your ignorance about security doesn't make it an exploit when someone decide to declare war on you. Disclaimer: As usual my statement is mine and does not represent the opinion of my corporation or alliance.
GingerBeef	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:28:00 - [12] Originally by: Arcane Mystery Just wondering... why is it CCP's or the attackers fault that your POS had no defensive measures in the first place? Once again.. because we should have had 23 hours to redeploy. instead of less than 1 hour. CCP doesn't pause the wardec timer during patch deployment, but now there is a good reason for it to be done. Originally by: Arcane Mystery I know that before the patch there was a bug making anyone attacking a POS in high sec get concorded even though it was a wartarget POS but the patch notes has been out for a while. How does that relate to people no longer getting flagged when aiding a pos? that obviously a different problem all together meaning when a GM asks you to stop its pretty much the death sentence for what you're trying to protect. quite simple really, what was deployed was just for show, we had what was needed for defense in storage ready to deploy, we never got more then 50 minute warning so we didn't get much up.
Raem Civrie Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:37:00 - [13] Originally by: GingerBeef Stuffs Sir, a question. Strontium. Heard of it? It's an Ice mineral used by POS owners. ---- Fact #443: Everyone in EVE is someone's alt
GingerBeef	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:44:00 - [14] got it, used it, that was quick
Aftrime	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:00:00 - [15] Edited by: Aftrime on 20/06/2007 12:01:52 Originally by: GingerBeef Originally by: Arcane Mystery Just wondering... why is it CCP's or the attackers fault that your POS had no defensive measures in the first place? Once again.. because we should have had 23 hours to redeploy. instead of less than 1 hour. Originally by: Arcane Mystery the patch notes has been out for a while. Let me repeat it again for you, patch notes have been out for a long time. You knew posses would become targets when the patch was deployed yet you did not act on that info. I know I have spend a few hours befor the patches yesterday preping myself looking for the ebst buy-orders on implants and books ... And I got lucky couse people like you that don't act on the on info given to them weeks in advance. All that is left to say is : Well done to those that wardeced GingerBeef (aliance/corp), good luck killing the first empire posses and taking over the researche industry. You got your intell and u used it wisely (something we can't say about your opponent)
Trak Cranker Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:01:00 - [16] You should not be able to circumvent the 24h warning by using a planned 20+h DT. The opposite is complete metagaming, and arguments on what the "victim" should have done or been prepared for/with, is assinine at best.
Daedon Minmatar Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:06:00 - [17] Originally by: Gank Bait Unable to wardec back, or Hire help for another 24 hours the fight would be over in hours anyways. And this 1 sided fighting is condoned? So wait.. Did you fail to realise that your POS could be attacked after downtime? If you didn't, there is propably no reason why you wouldn't have put enough stront in it to give you plenty of time to get help. And what is this 'wardec back' and 'onesided fighting' you speak about? By all means, do shoot back at OMNOR. Did you actually think that you can't shoot back until you too have wardecced?
GingerBeef	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:08:00 - [18] Originally by: Aftrime Edited by: Aftrime on 20/06/2007 12:01:52 You knew posses would become targets when the patch was deployed yet you did not act on that info. yea when a wardec is 23 hours out, you can act on it. when its 50 minutes, you're a little cramped for time, but nice scapegoating, patch notes and all. Yes I wonder how many empirepos's are running 100% defenses atm. Originally by: Aftrime Let me repeat it again for you you said it once before? how many alts you using buddy? am I talking to one person?
Santa Anna	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:17:00 - [19] This made me chuckle. Having a tower without stront anywhere is foolish. If nothing else it gives you some warning to decide whether it's worth defending against whoever is attacking. Second, if you'd read the patch notes you'd know you can anchor guns after going into reinforced, allowing you to run out and drop some stront in the tower in the hour or so before fighting began if there wasn't any and go pick up whatever guns you can find to stick on there once the tower goes into reinforced. You also could have used the time to unanchor and remove any modules you wante to save (though not enough time for the tower). Using the extended DT was clever on your attacker's part, but it's not like he used any information you didn't have access to. You should have been ready.
Trak Cranker Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:19:00 - [20] Originally by: Aftrime Let me repeat it again for you, patch notes have been out for a long time. You knew posses would become targets when the patch was deployed yet you did not act on that info. Read this slowly: This has nothing to do with the changes that came with the patch - but a metagaming trick that was pulled on the wardec warning, using the extended DT as a cover. What was in the patch notes might have triggered the war dec - but using DT as a warning shortener has nothing to do with that. If someone had declared war on that corp today, they would have 24h to reinforce the POSs, move stuff, fit ships - what have you. In this case they had a few hours, if that. People scream for CCP to be fair and unbiased - and yet they applaud moves like this.
Zyranyth Minmatar Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:21:00 - [21] Hrm. You do realise that reinforced mode is there specifically to give you time to get help?
Trak Cranker Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:25:00 - [22] Given the 24h they should have had, they might have been able to prepare or get help, avoiding reinforced mode in the first place?
Trak Cranker Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:28:00 - [23] Originally by: Santa Anna Using the extended DT was clever on your attacker's part, but it's not like he used any information you didn't have access to. You should have been ready. Aaah, so I am guessing the term we use for logoffski should be changed from "lame abuse of broken game mechanic" to "clever", too?
DeODokktor Caldari Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:31:00 - [24] Originally by: Trak Cranker Read this slowly: This has nothing to do with the changes that came with the patch - but a metagaming trick that was pulled on the wardec warning, using the extended DT as a cover. What was in the patch notes might have triggered the war dec - but using DT as a warning shortener has nothing to do with that. If someone had declared war on that corp today, they would have 24h to reinforce the POSs, move stuff, fit ships - what have you. In this case they had a few hours, if that. People scream for CCP to be fair and unbiased - and yet they applaud moves like this. I think it all depends on the things you dont see or hear.. someone doing it just willy-nilly might be wrong in it, my pos has guns anchor'd just in case something like this happens.. I dont let the alt's do pos stuff in an alt corp while I run around doing naughty stuff in npc corps (where I cant be touched).. not saying it's like that, but your probably only hearing 50% of the story....
Trak Cranker Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:38:00 - [25] Originally by: DeODokktor I think it all depends on the things you dont see or hear.. someone doing it just willy-nilly might be wrong in it, my pos has guns anchor'd just in case something like this happens.. I dont let the alt's do pos stuff in an alt corp while I run around doing naughty stuff in npc corps (where I cant be touched).. not saying it's like that, but your probably only hearing 50% of the story... That really only pertains to _why_ they were wardecced in the first place. And for all I know they had it coming. But that doesn't really change how a wardec should go down.
Candyman Dyer	Posted - 2007.06.20 12:50:00 - [26] Not sure on my thoughts here. On one hand it was clever. On the other it does seem to be an oversight by CCP. The idea that forces OUTSIDE the game can garner people IN GAME benefits is more than slightly disturbing.
Raem Civrie Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:10:00 - [27] Originally by: Gank Bait I honestly can not believe this kind of exploitive play is allowed. OH BTW! According to GM's... 1) Deccing just before long patch hits = Slightly dodgy but not an Exploit 2) Repping your starbase in empire with neutrals = Exploit Citing official sources, only one side exploited here. ---- Fact #443: Everyone in EVE is someone's alt
Cecille	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:19:00 - [28] Originally by: Raem Civrie Originally by: Gank Bait I honestly can not believe this kind of exploitive play is allowed. OH BTW! According to GM's... 1) Deccing just before long patch hits = Slightly dodgy but not an Exploit 2) Repping your starbase in empire with neutrals = Exploit Citing official sources, only one side exploited here. I'd escalate that to senior GMs, the purpose of the 24 hours is for war preporation. While it might seem slightly dodgy... it's an unintended use of the war dec system.
Namingway Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:23:00 - [29] This is and isn't an exploit. The point of the 24 hours is to give you a warning and prep time, which you got, however you also didn't get it because of the 24hr downtime. Petition and see what happens. Originally by: CCP kieron If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs.
Nesa Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:32:00 - [30] Yeah actually this makes it much worse because if the flagging isn't working, and you don't get the 24 hrs to prepare, you can't even get help, because the help can't leave their corp within 24hrs to join yours due to roles. The only thing that really could be said was the patch notes did indicate that High Sec POS's would be attackable, and that a good 36hrs stront probably should have been organised. Since you can now anchor guns and things in that time. But it's actually one thing to use a patch's new features to attack someone, with the Extended DT as cover, then be all up in arms about neutrals remote repping POS's.... I mean, that's both sides taking advantage of the new patch, isn't it ;) Absolutely wreaks of bad sportsmanship... Extended Downtimes mess up alot of things, you get POS's coming out of reinforced in them and all sorts of things. I bet it would be really hard to implement, but CCP really needs to wind the clock back to compensate for them. The upside is no POS's etc would use fuel, the downside is that mining ones wouldn't produce anything, no research would get done etc etc. Kinda annoying. With less than 24hrs to prepare I can't see how a GM can allow this and deny neutrals remote-repping. Since the neutrals are -unable- to make themselves flagged... (unless perhaps they could join a gang ? and be flagged that way ? ) If they can flag themselves and then join that removes half the problem. But then they can't shoot unless shot at first..
Nesa Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:34:00 - [31] Whatever the result stuff like this needs to go to a senior GM to be delt with immediately. Because the more stuff happens the harder it is to sort it out. (If the POS gets destroyed, it would probably be hard to justify giving it back)
Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:43:00 - [32] It's amazing how people always find creative ways to take advantage from the tiniest and most obscure loopholes this game offers. They find them all, and they are all scrupelously exploitet. Juwi Kotch JOIN NOW, KLICK SIG!
Cecille	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:44:00 - [33] Originally by: Juwi Kotch It's amazing how people always find creative ways to take advantage from the tiniest and most obscure loopholes this game offers. They find them all, and they are all scrupelously exploitet. Juwi Kotch I blame the british :-)
Urdatorn	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:45:00 - [34] Originally by: Juwi Kotch It's amazing how people always find creative ways to take advantage from the tiniest and most obscure loopholes this game offers. They find them all, and they are all scrupelously exploitet. Juwi Kotch no, the funny part is morons comming to the forums claiming that it's a "fully legit tactic!!!!111" :D
Sinola	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:46:00 - [35] Imho its a clear exploit: It abuses game mechanics and weaknesses in game mechanics to gain an advantage. A long DT is such an weakness in game mechanics. What else is an exploit then ?
Mifter Hogdido Amarr The 0ri	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:57:00 - [36] In reply to the Original Poster, I find this interesting since I was considering war dec'ing a corporation in the exact manner pre-patch, but a small, say again 'small' percentage of my corporation did not want to. And Nicole KholdStare, its not bad sportsmanship, its tactics. ----------------- Its "the" by the way, not whatever the made up use of letters "teh" means.
Creeco	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:58:00 - [37] Originally by: Bizz Lizz Edited by: Bizz Lizz on 20/06/2007 11:03:09 Quite lame in my eyes to use a patch deployment as a way that the enemy doesn't get the 24 hours to prepare, especially to start attacks on pos, before the enemy can adapt to the changes in the patch. War'deccing right before a 24h patch makes the intention really obvious. The 24h are there because CCP wanted it that way and said so and not to find a way how to get around it. Yes, bad sportsman ship. If I was GM I'd declare the war'dec invalid and say: 'Try again in 24 hours !' just to make clear that abusing such things won't be tolerated. exactly.. pretty damn lame IMO, cowardly too
Creeco	Posted - 2007.06.20 16:59:00 - [38] Originally by: Mifter Hogdido In reply to the Original Poster, I find this interesting since I was considering war dec'ing a corporation in the exact manner pre-patch, but a small, say again 'small' percentage of my corporation did not want to. And Nicole KholdStare, its not bad sportsmanship, its tactics. dude it's not tactics when you do it in a mannar that the corp you're deccing can't defend themselves
Mifter Hogdido Amarr The 0ri	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:24:00 - [39] It is tactics in my eyes and nothing you say will ever change it. And by the way they can defend themselves by shooting back, forming gangs, etc. Also, did you see that I pointed out that we didn't do it, that it was a thought? On a side note they were asking for it with their actions, the opposing team, without any provoking from us. ----------------- Its "the" by the way, not whatever the made up use of letters "teh" means.
DeODokktor Caldari Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:34:00 - [40] There's far too many alts who are posting either 1)this was our corp - or - 2)it was wrong use your mains.. it carries more influence.
Ms Caretaker Minmatar The Peoples Front of Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:49:00 - [41] Did they fix the bug with POS then? As even when you war dec'd someone you couldn't attack a POS legally in high sec and got concordokkened. Is this fixed now? TPFM - The original Minmatar Terrorists. Podding Amarrians For Years!
Covert Oops	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:57:00 - [42] Edited by: Covert Oops on 20/06/2007 19:02:24 LetÆs talk about exploiters here for a minute. The target corporation had a CEO with high standings form an alt corp for a POS. They had high standings with Caldari and anchored their POS. The CEO quit and joined their main corporation while their R&D alts with zero standings joined the corp so they never lost high standings. That and they were building cap ships in high sec, 25% faster in a POS. No itÆs not an exploit but CCP made it so large ship assembly arrays can't be anchored anymore in high sec for a reason. They were using an alt corp to try and hide the POS from would be attackers and they had all of their main characters in another corporation with roles. A war dec was made against their main corporation, however they liked to hug the station a lot and some of them warped to one of the planets/moons and hey there is this nice pos but it was in another corp. Upon investigation, the founder of the corp was a member of their main corporation which was war decced. Upon reading the patch notes we decided to do the following: 1. Retract the war from their main corporation (EmpiresMod), 2 days prior to the war dec against their alt corp. This was to prevent them from defending their POS within EmpiresMod corp. 2. War dec the POS alt corp. If they would have read the patch notes, they could have assumed that the POS would have got attacked. There is no doubt in my mind that they know we found out about their POS and were very interested in taking it out. They didnÆt read the patch notes. The war dec was intended to be as short notice as possible. Knowing how these guys borderline exploit all of the time, it's a bit hypocritical to expect we wouldnÆt do the same. They had 2 hours to prepare and they could have easily put over 24 hours of stront in the tower, but they only put 9 hours of stront. This was an error on their part. Then on top of that, they came in with logistic alt neutrals and started to heal the POS. I tested this with one of my neutral alts and I received a warning saying that I would get flagged for healing the POS, but I never got flagged. Blatantly a bug and therefore an exploit, which it was deemed an exploit by the GMÆs shortly after. Now, the defenses they had at the POS were very poor. Aramachi 7 m3 Photon Scattering Array Large Ship Assembly Array Deat Dissipation Array 7 labs 5 large artillery batts 1 large beam Laser batts Basically, 6 large turrets. Which if they would have read the patch notes: Quote: All turret structures have had their ranges and tracking revised based on their turret equivalents, so they work best against their intended targets: cruisers for small turrets, battleships for medium turrets and capital ships for large turrets. There canÆt be any dreads used in high sec so it was a little silly to have LARGE turret batteries as a defense when mediums are designed to be used against battleships. They only had large turrets. They had no clue what they were doing. Now it had 9 hours of stront. They could have repaired the guns and anchored new medium guns during that time if they knew this: Quote: You can now anchor structures that only require power while the control tower is in reinforced mode. Basically, they didnÆt read the patch notes, they lost their prized possession that was previously invulnerable. Waah Waah Waah Oh, and before I finish, they could have avoided this with a simple apology and a surrender fee, which was 250m or 500m I forget, they arrogantly refused. It was cheap war deccing before DT but they still had time to prepare (over 2 hours) and if they would have read the patch notes and had a clue of what they were doing, it might have been a different story. And one last thing, they used dreads in high sec to do level 4's.
Messerschmitt facility Amarr Shinra	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:01:00 - [43] I would petition under exploit. That should get a response quickly _________________________________ A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking...
Covert Oops	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:08:00 - [44] Originally by: GingerBeef Originally by: jamesw And using alts to repair the POS, knowing full well they are not being criminally flagged towards the aggressor is not exploitive? Come on Pot. Kettle. Black. oh.. and post with your main(s) Actually no alts were used, In aiding this pos. And where does it say there is a bug present with the pos? Did patch notes say "oh by the way flagging for aiding a pos at war isn't working guys"? No it did not. Originally by: Aramachi Local Chimeitekina Chikara > anyone here have a shield transfer support ship, I'll pay for you to help me no ganging involved?
GingerBeef	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:19:00 - [45] Im sorry but how do we border line exploit in any way? We saw the patch notes, we knew the pos was not in a anti battleship defensive setup because we would have changed it during a valid 24 hour warning. the guns and the setup you described was a mear display. 2 hours warning? we had to download the patch and get in cue to get onto the server we had less warning then that. You guys took complete advantage of the fact of the 24 hour warning we wouldn't be physically able to change anything for 22 of those hours. Something tells me the Dev's will take a look at the abuse of the 24hour warning during patch deployment as they are not "part of the gameplay" as you Cant actually play eve during a patch deployment. and save your time scape goating with "didnt read the patch notes" We knew exactly how to setup a pos for anti battleship, how many empire pos's do you see with 100% defenses 100% of every day every day of the week? You don't simply because you are supposed to see a war coming and change your setup. Now you did not even mention in local that we were not flagged too you. For everyone trying to aid the pos it gave the same warning as it would when you remote someone at war, there was simply no way to tell for sure. Then a GM did come and forced us to stop, now we could only sit and watch the pos go down as opposed to taking our chances with a working flagging system, who is the real victim of this bug?
Covert Oops	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:23:00 - [46] Edited by: Covert Oops on 20/06/2007 19:24:04 Originally by: GingerBeef Im sorry but how do we border line exploit in any way? We saw the patch notes, we knew the pos was not in a anti battleship defensive setup because we would have changed it during a valid 24 hour warning. the guns and the setup you described was a mear display. 2 hours warning? we had to download the patch and get in cue to get onto the server we had less warning then that. You guys took complete advantage of the fact of the 24 hour warning we wouldn't be physically able to change anything for 22 of those hours. Something tells me the Dev's will take a look at the abuse of the 24hour warning during patch deployment as they are not "part of the gameplay" as you Cant actually play eve during a patch deployment. and save your time scape goating with "didnt read the patch notes" We knew exactly how to setup a pos for anti battleship, how many empire pos's do you see with 100% defenses 100% of every day every day of the week? You don't simply because you are supposed to see a war coming and change your setup. Now you did not even mention in local that we were not flagged too you. For everyone trying to aid the pos it gave the same warning as it would when you remote someone at war, there was simply no way to tell for sure. Then a GM did come and forced us to stop, now we could only sit and watch the pos go down as opposed to taking our chances with a working flagging system, who is the real victim of this bug? Why didnt you just load up a bunch of stront? You had plenty of time to do that at least. You spent more time anchoring more hardeners when you could have just loaded up stront. And maybe your POS shouldnt have been in a R&D alt corp.
GingerBeef	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:45:00 - [47] hahaha Exploit to heal the pos shield, however we were told NOT to do it and ceased at the first GM warnings, So who's the victim of that bug? What was that expression, Pot. Kettle. Black.? Due to flagging not working we were unable to help what so ever. Nice distorted logic regarding 12 of you vs what would be 20 + 6, you're using the total players in our corp attributes VS your online members not your total members. 36 players devoted to doing what they get paid for vs 20 mission runners. Really cute. You sound like you already know you've been caught exploiting the system for an unfair advantage. OH lets not forget we couldn't join the alt corp in 50 minutes with roles, forgetting that detail again aren't you? Funny, what would you have done if the patch deployment was 1 hour long, like a standard down time?
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:53:00 - [48] Edited by: Janu Hull on 20/06/2007 20:51:53 Originally by: Urdatorn Originally by: Juwi Kotch It's amazing how people always find creative ways to take advantage from the tiniest and most obscure loopholes this game offers. They find them all, and they are all scrupelously exploitet. Juwi Kotch no, the funny part is morons comming to the forums claiming that it's a "fully legit tactic!!!!111" :D Even funnier tagged with the sad mantra, "But EVE is supposed to be hardcore." Usually said by someone who usually flies a speed rigged F.agabond to escape "hardcore" PvP
Covert Oops	Posted - 2007.06.20 21:17:00 - [49] Edited by: Covert Oops on 20/06/2007 21:17:50 Originally by: GingerBeef hahaha Exploit to heal the pos shield, however we were told NOT to do it and ceased at the first GM warnings, So who's the victim of that bug? Both of us. It took us 2 hours longer because of the healers, but mostly you. The target was the large ship assembly array, we were thinking of leaving the labs alone, but we ganked everything due to the healing effort costing us more time. Originally by: GingerBeef Nice distorted logic regarding 12 of you vs what would be 20 + 6, you're using the total players in our corp attributes VS your online members not your total members. 36 players devoted to doing what they get paid for vs 20 mission runners. Really cute. You sure had a lot of alts around the place, I'm sure you could have defended the pos if you didnt try to use a lame alt corp to protect the pos or hide who it's real owner was. Originally by: GingerBeef You sound like you already know you've been caught exploiting the system for an unfair advantage. Funny, what would you have done if the patch deployment was 1 hour long, like a standard down time? Nah, CCP just decided to take the servers down just as we decided to war dec and we had to do it before the server went boom, but if you had 24 hours to prepare, we'd just bring more firepower, and we were prepared for that. We actually expected to have like 3 days of stront in the tower. What a nice surprise when it only had 9 hours. Thanks. Originally by: GingerBeef OH lets not forget we couldn't join the alt corp in 50 minutes with roles, forgetting that detail again aren't you? Probably bad idea to have POS alt corps isnt it. Maybe this means the end of pos alt corps. Man, and you could have bought yourself out of trouble for an apology and 250m ISK. I guess it's too late now.
EFF ONEF1 Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.20 21:25:00 - [50] the wardec timer should be paused during DT. as should training. anything with a timer should be paused when the server is not up. ----------------------------------------------- I have been known to take shuttles to various parts of 0.0 Why? Don't really know. I'm not an alt. One character, one account.
Doctor Pangloss	Posted - 2007.06.20 21:38:00 - [51] Originally by: Covert Oops Next time, don't be so arrogant towards other players, you really made somebody mad to warrant such a coordinated attack like this. Taking down a large pos in high sec without a dread isn't very easy. The corporation that owned the POS was EmpiresMod (through an alt corp). It was a high sec POS with a LAR, grandfathered in. It is a corp mostly made up of mission runners, and the LAR was part novelty and part industrial, not a PVP asset. I don't know why they posted this thread with an alt. The mercenary corporation hired to destroy said POS was Omniscient Order. They are one of about 6 different corps hired to war dec EmpiresMod in recent months, all hired by the same person - somebody with a vendetta (possibly even from something that happened outside of the game) but nobody knows for sure who it is. Who hired the mercenaries? Why not step up and admit your identity, if you feel so grievously wronged by some alleged "arrogance" and take responsibility? How big of an "offense" could it have been if nobody is even sure who the hell you are? You're the victor, I guess. Did you pay your mercenaries to make these forum posts, too? As long as they are fighting all your other battles for you, I guess they may as well step in and do so here as well. Omniscient Order - you were paid to do a job, you succeeded, congratulations. But don't be so sure that what you were paid to do was "warranted" or the anger of your employer was somehow justified. You don't know that. Maybe it makes you feel more noble about hunting down mission runners and blowing up high sec POS's or something to imagine that you actually know enough about the situation to make pronouncements like that, but I don't buy it. Regardless of the debate about the downtime war dec, whoever set all this up is still an anonymous coward who apparently is so petty and insecure about his disputes in an online game that he has to pay people to take his side. {Yes, I am posting with an alt, at the request of my CEO, who doesn't like us to get involved in forum p**sing matches. Apparently, if you sound too "arrogant" in your posts some people might find themselves warranted in hiring mercs to blow up your POS.}
Covert Oops	Posted - 2007.06.20 21:44:00 - [52] Originally by: Doctor Pangloss The corporation that owned the POS was EmpiresMod (through an alt corp). It was a high sec POS with a LAR, grandfathered in. It is a corp mostly made up of mission runners, and the LAR was part novelty and part industrial, not a PVP asset. I don't know why they posted this thread with an alt. It's a market pvp asset. Build battleships, capital ships, 25% faster in high security? That's one hell of an advantage, and thats the only reason why the POS was a target to begin with. Originally by: Doctor Pangloss The mercenary corporation hired to destroy said POS was Omniscient Order. They are one of about 6 different corps hired to war dec EmpiresMod in recent months, all hired by the same person - somebody with a vendetta (possibly even from something that happened outside of the game) but nobody knows for sure who it is. I hear there are a lot of defectors from EmpiresMod, I also hear the CEO is really abusive. It's probably their own ex-members that are mad at the CEO, so take a look and see who has recently left the corp and what terms they left on. Originally by: Doctor Pangloss Who hired the mercenaries? Why not step up and admit your identity, if you feel so grievously wronged by some alleged "arrogance" and take responsibility? How big of an "offense" could it have been if nobody is even sure who the hell you are? You're the victor, I guess. Did you pay your mercenaries to make these forum posts, too? As long as they are fighting all your other battles for you, I guess they may as well step in and do so here as well. Forum posts are free. Originally by: Doctor Pangloss Omniscient Order - you were paid to do a job, you succeeded, congratulations. But don't be so sure that what you were paid to do was "warranted" or the anger of your employer was somehow justified. You don't know that. Maybe it makes you feel more noble about hunting down mission runners and blowing up high sec POS's or something to imagine that you actually know enough about the situation to make pronouncements like that, but I don't buy it. Thats the nice thing about merc's they are paid for a job, nothing personal, just business. Originally by: Doctor Pangloss Regardless of the debate about the downtime war dec, whoever set all this up is still an anonymous coward who apparently is so petty and insecure about his disputes in an online game that he has to pay people to take his side. {Yes, I am posting with an alt, at the request of my CEO, who doesn't like us to get involved in forum p**sing matches. Apparently, if you sound too "arrogant" in your posts some people might find themselves warranted in hiring mercs to blow up your POS.} Wait, so your telling us to post with our mains but you use alts to post? Hell, the original poster of this is an alt. It's an alt eat alt world baby.
Audri Fisher Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.06.20 21:47:00 - [53] It's cheap, not tactics.
Trak Cranker Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 21:50:00 - [54] Edited by: Trak Cranker on 20/06/2007 21:49:33 When will you lay of the patch notes? That they said attacking POSs was fixed, is entirely beside the point. They should have had 24h(minus a normal DT) to get ready. Saying that they should have had the tower prepared for an attack - just in case - is not an argument, that justifies anything. Its like saying that you should have the Monopoly money in a steel vault while playing, after someone just grabbed a pile from the bank. "You knew it could happen!". Its a childish validation of a lame exploitation of loophole created by out of game circumstances. Under normal circumstances, and even knowing that they were about to be declared upon, leaving a high sec POS unifitted for defense is an entirely valid solution - to be changed upon the actual recieval of a wardec. Whether or not they prepared it for war, before a war was declared - is so far beside the point that its unbelievable that anyone conscious enough to turn on a computer and write on the forum, let alone play Eve, can get it into their head to bring it up as one. And to the guy further up: If this is tactics, so is cutting your powerline. They took advantage of an out of game event, to gain an advantage in game.
Doctor Pangloss	Posted - 2007.06.20 21:57:00 - [55] Originally by: Covert Oops Wait, so your telling us to post with our mains but you use alts to post? Hell the original poster of this is an alt. It's an alt eat alt world baby. Nope, wasn't telling anybody that they had to post with their mains. I was suggesting that the person who went to all this trouble to pursue a grudge against the EmpiresMod CEO should man up and reveal his identity if he's been so terribly wronged somehow. Of course, he won't. As far as myself is concerned - like I said - only reason I posted with an alt was at the request of my corp CEO who doesn't want to get involved. If I was the one hiring hordes of mercenaries to war dec people I had a problem with, I'd have war dec'd with my own corp first and had it out in the open.
IAmurDaddyBee	Posted - 2007.06.20 22:14:00 - [56] Just so you all know.. This was a ruse, we used lots of alts to try and ruse the guys in the game to see what they would say.. Hope everyone enjoy'd it.
Covert Oops	Posted - 2007.06.20 22:15:00 - [57] Edited by: Covert Oops on 20/06/2007 22:18:31 Originally by: Doctor Pangloss If I was the one hiring hordes of mercenaries to war dec people I had a problem with, I'd have war dec'd with my own corp first and had it out in the open. I don't think so, many people don't want to get war decced back into oblivion. That's the risk the merc corp takes. As I said earlier, it seems the corp has had a lot of defectors, and they have talked about how the CEO was threatening them. Maybe it's his own ex-members against him who he has wronged. Just a suggestion. Originally by: Audri Fisher It's cheap, not tactics. Such is life in EVE. Originally by: Trak Cranker Edited by: Trak Cranker on 20/06/2007 21:49:33 When will you lay of the patch notes? That they said attacking POSs was fixed, is entirely beside the point. They should have had 24h(minus a normal DT) to get ready. Saying that they should have had the tower prepared for an attack - just in case - is not an argument, that justifies anything. Its like saying that you should have the Monopoly money in a steel vault while playing, after someone just grabbed a pile from the bank. "You knew it could happen!". Its a childish validation of a lame exploitation of loophole created by out of game circumstances. Under normal circumstances, and even knowing that they were about to be declared upon, leaving a high sec POS unifitted for defense is an entirely valid solution - to be changed upon the actual recieval of a wardec. Whether or not they prepared it for war, before a war was declared - is so far beside the point that its unbelievable that anyone conscious enough to turn on a computer and write on the forum, let alone play Eve, can get it into their head to bring it up as one. And to the guy further up: If this is tactics, so is cutting your powerline. They took advantage of an out of game event, to gain an advantage in game. I don't know: 1. If I had a war dec against me. 2. And I had an alt corp with a pos. 3. And I knew that the merc corp knew about my POS and wanted to gank it. 4. And there is an upcoming patch where in the patch notes it states that POS's can be attacked. 5. And the merc corp drops their war dec against my main corporation 2 days prior to patch day. Maybe it's not such a bad idea to go prepare my POS.
Captain Agemman Minmatar Legio Ultra	Posted - 2007.06.20 22:29:00 - [58] Originally by: Covert Oops [...] Nah, CCP just decided to take the servers down just as we decided to war dec and we had to do it before the server went boom, [...] So cute.
Covert Oops	Posted - 2007.06.20 22:32:00 - [59] Originally by: Captain Agemman Originally by: Covert Oops [...] Nah, CCP just decided to take the servers down just as we decided to war dec and we had to do it before the server went boom, [...] So cute. It's cheap. Yes. I know. Thanks for letting me know. It's not an exploit. YOU LOSE. GOOD DAY, SIR!
Trak Cranker Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 22:34:00 - [60] Originally by: Covert Oops Originally by: Trak Cranker [ Whether or not they prepared it for war, before a war was declared - is so far beside the point that its unbelievable that anyone conscious enough to turn on a computer and write on the forum, let alone play Eve, can get it into their head to bring it up as one. I don't know: 1. If I had a war dec against me. 2. And I had an alt corp with a pos. 3. And I knew that the merc corp knew about my POS and wanted to gank it. 4. And there is an upcoming patch where in the patch notes it states that POS's can be attacked. 5. And the merc corp drops their war dec against my main corporation 2 days prior to patch day. Maybe it's not such a bad idea to go prepare my POS. Just figured it warranted a repeat.
jamesw Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.06.20 23:42:00 - [61] As has already been said - regardless of how "taken by surprise" you were - there was nothing stopping you from loading up on as much strontium as was humanly possible. If you had been smart enough to do that, you could have gone and hired half of EVE to come defend your POS when it came out of reinforced 36 - 48 hours later. Yes! You got taken by "surprise". Yes! Reinforced mode is there to counter that fact. We used the tools available to us, you didn't use the tools available to you. In the end it lost you your POS. -- Latest Vid: Domination!
GingerBeef	Posted - 2007.06.21 05:29:00 - [62] The Array built 4 capital ships in the 6 months or so it was around, none were sold. another hollow justification, another nice try.
Covert Oops	Posted - 2007.06.21 05:35:00 - [63] Edited by: Covert Oops on 21/06/2007 05:35:48 Originally by: GingerBeef The Array built 4 capital ships in the 6 months or so it was around, none were sold. another hollow justification, another nice try. This is EVE. We don't need justification. We couldnt fight a normal war with your main corp because you sat in the station all day, so once we found the pos we quickly notice POS's can't dock to avoid a fight You should be thanking us, your POS will go down in history as being the first pos taken down in high-sec, and will serve as a warning to all high-sec POS owners that their POS's are no longer invulnerable.
Badhands Gallente Gottland Production Transport Mines	Posted - 2007.06.21 06:08:00 - [64] Some people will cry about anything Originally by: Player Guide Don't expect CONCORD to keep you immune to attacks or ship losses.
cal nereus Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.06.21 06:15:00 - [65] Edited by: cal nereus on 21/06/2007 06:14:16 This sounds like Germany attacking Russia in World War II. Adolf was such an exploit-*****...
Covert Oops	Posted - 2007.06.21 06:36:00 - [66] Edited by: Covert Oops on 21/06/2007 06:35:54 Originally by: Badhands Some people will cry about anything Dunno why they didnt load it up with stront. Might have actually saved their POS. Originally by: cal nereus Edited by: cal nereus on 21/06/2007 06:14:16 This sounds like Germany attacking Russia in World War II. Adolf was such an exploit-*****... Godwin's_Law
cal nereus Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.06.21 06:41:00 - [67] Originally by: Covert Oops Edited by: Covert Oops on 21/06/2007 06:35:54 Originally by: Badhands Some people will cry about anything Dunno why they didnt load it up with stront. Might have actually saved their POS. Originally by: cal nereus Edited by: cal nereus on 21/06/2007 06:14:16 This sounds like Germany attacking Russia in World War II. Adolf was such an exploit-*****... Godwin's_Law Glad you brought that up. So, is this topic finally dead?
Covert Oops	Posted - 2007.06.21 06:56:00 - [68] Edited by: Covert Oops on 21/06/2007 06:58:31 Originally by: cal nereus Originally by: Covert Oops Edited by: Covert Oops on 21/06/2007 06:35:54 Originally by: Badhands Some people will cry about anything Dunno why they didnt load it up with stront. Might have actually saved their POS. Originally by: cal nereus Edited by: cal nereus on 21/06/2007 06:14:16 This sounds like Germany attacking Russia in World War II. Adolf was such an exploit-*****... Godwin's_Law Glad you brought that up. So, is this topic finally dead? Not just yet: GingerBeef: What happen ? Neutral Logistic Alts: Somebody set up us the bomb. Chimeitekina Chikara: We get signal. GingerBeef: What ! Chimeitekina Chikara: Main screen turn on. GingerBeef: It's you !! Mercanaries: How are you gentlemen !! Mercanaries: All your starbase are belong to us. Mercanaries: You are on the way to destruction. GingerBeef: What you say !! Mercanaries: You have no chance to survive make your time. Mercanaries: Ha Ha Ha
Dirt McGirtt Captain Morgan Society	Posted - 2007.06.21 07:09:00 - [69] Someone got BBQ'd
Covert Oops	Posted - 2007.06.21 07:19:00 - [70] Originally by: Dirt McGirtt Someone got BBQ'd Just after the tower went.
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2007.06.21 10:06:00 - [71] Originally by: Santa Anna This made me chuckle. Having a tower without stront anywhere is foolish. If nothing else it gives you some warning to decide whether it's worth defending against whoever is attacking. Second, if you'd read the patch notes you'd know you can anchor guns after going into reinforced, allowing you to run out and drop some stront in the tower in the hour or so before fighting began if there wasn't any and go pick up whatever guns you can find to stick on there once the tower goes into reinforced. You also could have used the time to unanchor and remove any modules you wante to save (though not enough time for the tower). Using the extended DT was clever on your attacker's part, but it's not like he used any information you didn't have access to. You should have been ready. Tell me again how you deploy weapons to a high sec POS. Also Known As
Logi3 Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.06.21 10:22:00 - [72] Quite clever actuly although i would class it as a cheap trick, but clever :)
Ankah Tragica	Posted - 2007.06.21 10:27:00 - [73] cunningly planned, well done. It's tough on the loosing side, but hey, it always is. War is war, and maybe this learns people to remember that this is all about pvp.
Sinola	Posted - 2007.06.21 15:49:00 - [74] When I read that at first I said "thats an exploit". After reading the whole story I had to change my mind: I is not really fair, but it was planned and executed in an excellent manner!
Maaku	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:12:00 - [75] It was a clever use of an opportunity. The issue here is when Rev 3 comes out (or some other long downtime occurs)...will it be twenty wardecs instead of just one, and thousands of players hammering on the login server as downtime progresses on the theory that every second may count when the server comes up?
Hennry Fromer Gallente radiated space gerbils	Posted - 2007.06.21 19:08:00 - [76] Okay I have to ask was it really a cunning plan or just when the contract was agreed to and the deposit received?
Shilikahn	Posted - 2007.06.21 19:38:00 - [77] I think if a GM got involved he should have stopped both sides. If it is an exploit to use alts to rep a POS, why are they allowed to spy? (24/7 afk cloakers ) to haul?(freighter runs). to steal?(get ganked in high sec lately). I think this GM has opened a tremendous can of worms. how do you know they are alts? maybe they were loyal players looking to help friends? future or past corp members? Use of alts is a widely used in game mechanic. not that i condone it. so i am posting with my alt
Covert Oops	Posted - 2007.06.21 20:18:00 - [78] Edited by: Covert Oops on 21/06/2007 20:17:02 Originally by: Shilikahn I think if a GM got involved he should have stopped both sides. If it is an exploit to use alts to rep a POS, why are they allowed to spy? (24/7 afk cloakers ) to haul?(freighter runs). to steal?(get ganked in high sec lately). I think this GM has opened a tremendous can of worms. how do you know they are alts? maybe they were loyal players looking to help friends? future or past corp members? Use of alts is a widely used in game mechanic. not that i condone it. so i am posting with my alt Nothing wrong with using alts. However normally when you heal a war target (like a players ship) regardless of what corp you are in you got flagged to the players enemies and their enemies could opt to shoot you down. But there was a bug, where they could heal a war target (like a POS) and not get flagged to the POS's enemies. They knew this and exploited it as much as they could. But since they had such a short time to prepare they didn't have enough time to properly prepare their exploiting neutral alt fleets.
Mitchman Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.06.21 20:27:00 - [79] FYI, if anyone should have any doubts, Covert Oops is not an alt of any Omniscient Order member. We don't post with alts. New video: All Aboard The Pain Train
Covert Oops	Posted - 2007.06.21 20:33:00 - [80] Originally by: Mitchman FYI, if anyone should have any doubts, Covert Oops is not an alt of any Omniscient Order member. We don't post with alts. Correct. I'm involved, but I'm not in Omniscient Order.
Captain Agemman Minmatar Legio Ultra	Posted - 2007.06.21 20:34:00 - [81] Originally by: Covert Oops Originally by: Captain Agemman Originally by: Covert Oops [...] Nah, CCP just decided to take the servers down just as we decided to war dec and we had to do it before the server went boom, [...] So cute. It's cheap. Yes. I know. Thanks for letting me know. It's not an exploit. YOU LOSE. GOOD DAY, SIR! Can't remember to have ever made any such allegation, sorry.
Mordorg Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.06.21 20:53:00 - [82] I think allowing it set a very very bad precedent. Next extended downtime there will be dozens, and the next, hundreds of last second war declarations. This will become the way to declare empire wars.
DeODokktor Caldari Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium	Posted - 2007.06.21 21:01:00 - [83] Originally by: Mordorg I think allowing it set a very very bad precedent. Next extended downtime there will be dozens, and the next, hundreds of last second war declarations. This will become the way to declare empire wars. Patches are not that often ;P The only real reason to do it the way this was done was so they could kill the stuff without hassle, I rekon they woulda easily won either way, but this way was a lot faster with a lot less hassle ;).. If your going to use an alt corp to put down a pos, just make an alliance (duh)...
Santa Anna	Posted - 2007.06.21 21:31:00 - [84] Originally by: Mordorg I think allowing it set a very very bad precedent. Next extended downtime there will be dozens, and the next, hundreds of last second war declarations. This will become the way to declare empire wars. I don't think that'll be an issue. There's really no excuse not to be somewhat prepared for a war dec at all times. This episode will serve to reinforce the reward for readiness which, IMO, is a good thing.
Ebedar Gallente Primary Intelligence	Posted - 2007.06.21 21:44:00 - [85] OMNOR were contracted to take a high sec POS down as soon as possible. They did that. I assume the matter has been petitioned, in which case just wait for the GMs to respond. If they find it to be "exploitive play" then you'll be reimbursed. If it hasn't been petitioned, then complaining here isn't going to make a difference. All said, OMNOR had a job to do and they did it. They've moved on, perhaps you ought to too. Drone Calculator (final release)
GingerBeef	Posted - 2007.06.21 22:05:00 - [86] "They knew this and exploited it as much as they could. " um sorry feeble minded fool, Just how did we "know" this and exploit it? The first comments on voice comm's where they're ignoring us and concentrating on the pos. how ignorant of you too think we would know you were ignoring us because you couldn't do something. We were praying you would shoot us so we could come back in equal force. Oh the irony. The bigger exploit is in fact us not allowed to repair the pos while it is under attack. and one major part of the game mechanics were not working letting you fire away, even you know this. Its only someone vindictive such as yourself that would assume we would know its a bug, in the heat of the attack we didn't even notice. None of the people helping were alts. Not a single one of them, it's amazing how sad and pathetic you look trying to justify this for your self and your corporation.
Vodka Neat Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.06.21 22:25:00 - [87] After reading this all I it is an exploit, but not of the game, but of your naivety (is that even a word?). Nobody said it couldn't happen, you just decided to believe it wouldn't happen (at least not to you). As they say "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." Final note: Good job on those who took part in this. Keep Eve dangerous and keep the players thinking and on their toes. Why are you still reading? Its over. Continue to the next post.
Covert Oops	Posted - 2007.06.21 23:07:00 - [88] Originally by: GingerBeef "They knew this and exploited it as much as they could. " um sorry feeble minded fool, Just how did we "know" this and exploit it? I'm not sure actually. I think it might have been something to do with trying to recruit random people from local saying there was no risk and that they would get paid if they helped.
Urdatorn	Posted - 2007.06.22 19:53:00 - [89] Wassen't it possible to avoid the 24h time betwen a wardec and the actuall war before, not exactly sure about the details, but it was asosicated with joining/leaveing alliances or somthing along those lines,pretty sure it's fixed now dossen't that basicly leave the question if avoiding the 24h preptime before wardec by using downtime as cover is an exploit answerd?
Nesa Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.22 22:26:00 - [90] Originally by: Urdatorn Wassen't it possible to avoid the 24h time betwen a wardec and the actuall war before, not exactly sure about the details, but it was asosicated with joining/leaveing alliances or somthing along those lines,pretty sure it's fixed now dossen't that basicly leave the question if avoiding the 24h preptime before wardec by using downtime as cover is an exploit answerd? No actually quite the reverse, when a corp left an alliance they still had to keep being part of the war for 24 more hours, to avoid corps leaving alliances mid fight etc. So what you would see was a corp declaring you than instantly retracting (with fighting being allowed immediately and for 24hr only). In reality this corp was already technically at war with you, as part of an alliance. As far as I know it's still that way, it was never a bug in the first place.
MoTiOnXml Minmatar Feral Tendency	Posted - 2007.06.23 02:40:00 - [91] Edited by: MoTiOnXml on 23/06/2007 02:39:20 Originally by: Santa Anna I don't think that'll be an issue. There's really no excuse not to be somewhat prepared for a war dec at all times. This episode will serve to reinforce the reward for readiness which, IMO, is a good thing. That is a masterful piece of selfvalidation if I ever saw one. And poor ability of taking an objective stance. There is plenty of excuses not to be ready for a war dec at all times. Of course you must pay the price accordingly. That is - if you can't be ready in _24_ hours. Using a metagaming event like an announced prolonged patch deployment to cut that down to close to nothing should simply not happen. It should be so glaringly obvious that an ability to cut the grace period on a wardec down to nothing is wrong. If it had happened due to a bug, people would be reimbursed. But now it happens in a situation totally controlled by CCP, and its suddenly different? I am all for using all the tricks in the book, within Eves rules. But this is the equivalent of the referees accepting rulebreaking, cause they cant be bothered to uphold them. I have several issues with CCPs concept of upholding fairness, and I think this is the final push to writing them a mail on it. (Doing it here would only play into the hands of the currently all too prevalent CCP hatemongering crowd that I have no interest in associating myself with.)
Kailiani Fracked Up beyond All Recognition	Posted - 2007.06.23 05:29:00 - [92] The outcome could have been different or drawn out more had they the proper time to prepare themselves. I see no logic to allow this from a perpective such as being in CCP's shoes myself, its not fun nor fair for the victim and could be impossible to get prepared 1 hour after a patch since many times its laggy or not stable. The 24 hour warning for war is there for a reason, to prepare. Saying they should have been been prepared already is irrelevent, since thats a sole purpose of the 24 hour warning! Had anyone here who is defending the attackers position been the victims themselves they most likely wouldn't be so biased! From what I see: -attackers could have wardeced close to downtime and the victim never knew it until after only 1 hour was left when they logged on. -it could have been worse, it was supposed to be a 24 hour downtime, what if it was extended to 26+ hours? that would have left absolutely no time to prepare. -all corp members most likely wouldnt have been logged on to defend the POS, since there was no warning of an attack. -Lots of new POS weapons,requiring specific sizes for ships... etcetc... -GM's probably still dont care and picking their noses laughing. -Been awhile since I read this thread i forget.
Covert Oops	Posted - 2007.06.23 05:36:00 - [93] Originally by: Kailiani From what I see: -attackers could have wardeced close to downtime and the victim never knew it until after only 1 hour was left when they logged on. -it could have been worse, it was supposed to be a 24 hour downtime, what if it was extended to 26+ hours? that would have left absolutely no time to prepare. -all corp members most likely wouldnt have been logged on to defend the POS, since there was no warning of an attack. -Lots of new POS weapons,requiring specific sizes for ships... etcetc... -GM's probably still dont care and picking their noses laughing. -Been awhile since I read this thread i forget. It took over 2 hours to get the shields below 50%, they could have gave themself 3 days of time very easily by cramming the tower of stront. Instead, they anchored more and more shield hardening arrays.
Katarrin	Posted - 2007.06.23 05:54:00 - [94] What I would like to know through all this is how YOU define exploit? It sure seems to me that if, in the rules, you are to be given a 24 hour notice before any engagement may begin, then you have 24 hours to prepare for any possible threats ie: install POS defenses. But to wardec b4 a 24 hour DT therefore eliminating the 24 hour period isn't an exploit? Ludicrous! Ridiculous even. As for the clown that said something about ****** invading Russsia, thats laughable. Eve is a GAME with rules and has NOTHING to do with real life, especially war, believe it or not. Working within the rules (24 hour wardec) there would be ample time to prepare and no reason to have things draining fuel from a POS that has no reason for such. And as for in not being fair to have a capital ships array "immune" from attack is also ludicrous. Not having it in 0.0 or low sec makes it much more expensive to get parts and mins, which are much more readily available in low sec. having the POS in high-sec. was, believe it or not, earned. Gaining the necessary standings to anchor a POS in hisec is not easy (I find mission running mind-numbing). And if you feel its so easy then why didn't you do it too? Just because he choses not to play the game the way you'd have it, makes it no less valid. Score 1 up for the whiners, no more high sec cap. ships array, yippy! OK so some adjustments will be made. I really don't have a problem with having the right to attack a high sec. POS. Hell, in low sec you don't even have to declare war to engage, so be it, but in low sec you would ALWAYS have defenses ready. Or am I mistaken? lol As for them being station huggers...when your home system or has more hostiles in it and you're outgunned, do YOU undock? I'd call you a fool if you did. Or if they were out running a mission and were mission hardened and ammoed would it be wise to engage a PVP setup? That would be as stupid as not hiding when you're in a ratting setup and hostiles jumped in. Or is that how YOU do things? If so, do tell where you reside soz I know where to get some easy kills. It may well be they didn't know how to conduct a war, no one is born with such knowledge, and they have been mission runners. Once again, because the game isn't played the way YOU want it makes it no less valid. the rant continues...It's like the "nerf nos, nerf ECM" whine to me. I cant figure out, or dont want to figure out how to counter nos & ECM, so lets all just strap on a bunch of guns, missiles and related skills, and dook it out. Because I'm too dumb or lazy to counter. The whiners are wanting to take too much out of the game. I for one like this game because of its depth, PLEASE don't simplify it. I'm not quite that simple-minded, and will get bored easily. Y'all have a good'n.
Kailiani Fracked Up beyond All Recognition	Posted - 2007.06.23 06:39:00 - [95] Edited by: Kailiani on 23/06/2007 06:39:34 Originally by: Covert Oops Originally by: Kailiani From what I see: -attackers could have wardeced close to downtime and the victim never knew it until after only 1 hour was left when they logged on. -it could have been worse, it was supposed to be a 24 hour downtime, what if it was extended to 26+ hours? that would have left absolutely no time to prepare. -all corp members most likely wouldnt have been logged on to defend the POS, since there was no warning of an attack. -Lots of new POS weapons,requiring specific sizes for ships... etcetc... -GM's probably still dont care and picking their noses laughing. -Been awhile since I read this thread i forget. It took over 2 hours to get the shields below 50%, they could have gave themself 3 days of time very easily by cramming the tower of stront. Instead, they anchored more and more shield hardening arrays. I do not know anything about the victim corp, they could all be a few months old for all I know. What if they had limited funding, already had bought the strontium but the guy who bought it wasnt logged on. Or maybe they spent all their isk on the tower, being new and inexperienced not preparing for borderline exploits that came during a patch they didnt know about. With proper warning they could have raised isk for stront and/or sought allies. I could probably think on more scenerios where they coulda been better prepared with proper warning...
MoTiOnXml Minmatar Feral Tendency	Posted - 2007.06.23 11:11:00 - [96] Originally by: Covert Oops It took over 2 hours to get the shields below 50%, they could have gave themself 3 days of time very easily by cramming the tower of stront. Instead, they anchored more and more shield hardening arrays. And that is completely irrellevant. Its like hitting someone after the gong in boxing, and justifying it with the fact that he is a bad boxer.
Chris Stormrider	Posted - 2007.06.23 11:30:00 - [97] Edited by: Chris Stormrider on 23/06/2007 11:29:47 this is obvious a bait for flaming, still here are my 2 isk: since there is a 24h "wait" period, before war, it must be served. Using patch-day time for that is trying to defeat the spirit of the "law" with the letter of the "law". So it's bad. But if ccp creates the rules and let's such a Timer run, while patching... well I guess they're ok with it. So, what can you say? I'd still contact a GM about it, just to be sure. PS. Sometimes you get draged into a fight without time to react and high-sec != total-sec
Covert Oops	Posted - 2007.06.23 14:10:00 - [98] Originally by: Kailiani I do not know anything about the victim corp, they could all be a few months old for all I know. What if they had limited funding, already had bought the strontium but the guy who bought it wasnt logged on. Or maybe they spent all their isk on the tower, being new and inexperienced they did not prepare for any borderline exploits that could possibly happen during a patch they didnt know about. With proper warning they could have raised isk for strontium and/or sought allies. Allies that would fight back. If they were inexperienced maybe they shouldnt have treated their corporation members like crap. This wasnt just a random gank 'just for fun', this was revenge. Sweet sweet revenge.

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