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warp to zero - what happend?

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Neuromandis Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.21 01:19:00 - [61] Since : * whomever wanted to could make bookmarks (tedious but that's it, and they weren't THAT expensive to buy anyway) and effectively warp-to-zero * everyone needs them, almost everyone liked them. There is a single class of people that didn't like them: Pirates that exclusively fed on people travelling without instas. Who then adapted, camped the other side, kill people just fine, they have to work a bit harder (read: no free lunch) and everyone is fine. Get over it, it's nice to be able to travel freely.
Hannobaal Gallente Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.21 01:20:00 - [62] Considering the fact that anything cruiser sized or larger can be tackled with ease long before it can get into warp (with the exception of Stabber and Vagabond I guess), I don't see what the problem is. If they jump in, you will catch them. If they warp on the gate you're at, you jump with them and catch them on the other side. Where is the big problem here? ------------------ "If you ever need anything please don't Hesitate to ask someone else first."
Verite Rendition Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2007.06.21 01:25:00 - [63] Nish'a, did you eat lead paint chips as a kid or something? DS is right, you're 18 months late, that's practically an eternity for this game. WTZ is here, it's done, it's not changing. Everyone else has adapted and learned not to whine, you should too. Otherwise if you want to remain stuck in the past, we could have a very interesting argument about how to weed out the commies in America. ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic
Hannobaal Gallente Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.21 01:27:00 - [64] As far as I'm aware, the change happened mid fall last year, not 18 months ago. ------------------ "If you ever need anything please don't Hesitate to ask someone else first."
Verite Rendition Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2007.06.21 01:29:00 - [65] Originally by: Hannobaal As far as I'm aware, the change happened mid fall last year, not 18 months ago. Don't be a smart-ass, you're egging him on. ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic
Arduus Eruditio NQX Innovations	Posted - 2007.06.21 01:33:00 - [66] Originally by: Annika MonSulu Originally by: MehTheTrader Totally wrong, there was no need for wtz to get rid of bm. You can make a 10 km type warp inhibitor around stargate, then there would be no need for bookmarks anyways. That would have been a great idea! Not only would you have a 10KM run to get to the gate, but a 10KM run to get away from it to warp on the other side. Yeah, that would have had no negative impact on the player economy at all! Yes, that might be relevant if it weren't for the fact that you spawn about 15km away from the gate once you jump through. Think before you post next time.
Ecchus Minmatar Egbinger Mining Co	Posted - 2007.06.21 01:39:00 - [67] I'm guessing you missed the huge debate leading up to the implementation of WTZ, so let's recap in the old days when JohnnyBookmarkSeller made a copy of his Querious Regional Bookmark set (517 total bookmarks IIRC) he would start the copy and leave it running, bogging down the database AND the node he was on til the copy completed, which could take hours. His entire corp would be doing the exact same thing since one region set would sell for 5-40mill. And a few dozen other corps would be doing it also, it was lucrative as hell. On top of that, when a player loads their list of bookmarks, it accesses the database. When they warp-to a bookmark it does the same thing. Now think about say 1000 people in Querious each loading up their set of instas and do the math. That's a lot of computer time and it causes problems all over the place. So the entire Eve community got in on giving suggestions. This was also known as "Whining About Instas on the Forums and Threatening to Quit". It got so bad that for a long time there was one designated epic thread for insta discussion and all other threads were locked or deleted. In the end, two things happened. First was a restriction in the UI that made it impossible to copy more than 5 bookmarks at a time. This change was announced before it was implemented. Those of us who were around can tell you that the game was unplayable for the last few days before that patch. CCP reported later than something around 250,000 bookmark copies were made in the last 12 hours before the patch. This still didn't fix the problem, database lag was still severe. So WTZ came to be because it was the best way to solve the problem and appease the most players. Personally it hasn't made that much difference to me. Now as for some of the other points you tried to make on this topic. "WTZ will prevent regional hubs." Remember Yulai? There were no regional hubs before WTZ because people will always travel for a good price if they have the time. If they don't, people like me will make money off of them. "Bookmarks were never intended as instas." And? Intention doesn't matter, this is what they were used for. Unintended usage caused a problem. The problem was fixed. It could have been fixed by disallowing bookmarks within a certain distance of gates/stations, but that took out quick travel. And No One wants slower travel. "Oveur didn't want this." Oveur has done a fine job responding to the needs of both the game and the players. Games like this grow and change over time, things that might once have been unthinkable might eventually become inescapable. If its a choice between the game being playable and being unplayable, which is the right one to make? In closing, you have yet to suggest a better alternative to WTZ. And by better I mean not only "better", but "practical to implement", "simple to use", "guaranteed not to ** off the players", and "in keeping with the goals of the game". While you are free to express your opinion on the forums, bear in mind that this subject has been hashed out to infinity already, a solution implemented, and then adapted to by the players. No matter what you have to say, chances are its been said already. So until you've read the entirety of the debate on instas and until you come up with something new** to add to it, its time for you to sit down. Or time for you to give your stuff to someone else and quit. Not to me, I don't need it. ========== Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering whale; to the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee.. - Melville.
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 01:47:00 - [68] no one wants slower travel ... that argument I dont understand ... with a mwd you are pretty fast arent you?
Corporati Capitalis	Posted - 2007.06.21 01:48:00 - [69] Originally by: Hannobaal As far as I'm aware, the change happened mid fall last year, not 18 months ago. It only took 3 pages for someone to notice this. Sweet!
Ecchus Minmatar Egbinger Mining Co	Posted - 2007.06.21 01:50:00 - [70] Originally by: Nish'a no one wants slower travel ... that argument I dont understand ... with a mwd you are pretty fast arent you? Fit an MWD on a freighter. I dare you. ========== Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering whale; to the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee.. - Melville.
Illyria Ambri Caldari RennTech	Posted - 2007.06.21 01:51:00 - [71] Originally by: Nish'a no one wants slower travel ... that argument I dont understand ... with a mwd you are pretty fast arent you? Yes a MWD can make you fast. No a MWD or an AFB will not cause the removal of WTZ. Dude.. just stop posting and making yourself more of a fool. ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 01:51:00 - [72] ehm a freighter MAYBE should be slower than a frigate???
Tecknoblaze Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:01:00 - [73] I for one hate WTZ. Not everyone had instas, or at least complete instas (especially new players) and there was added tension in traveling low sec and 0.0. I felt my safety was restricted to certain regions which in turn gave them more personality and depth, where as now it seems every system/region is almost identical. Furthermore, many players didn't have station instas which added further possibilities. I think WTZ has simplified the game and made it less enjoyable. I really didn't notice a reduction of lag from WTZ either.
Ecchus Minmatar Egbinger Mining Co	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:04:00 - [74] Originally by: Nish'a ehm a freighter MAYBE should be slower than a frigate??? Clearly you still don't understand why MWD is not a solution to the problem. Nor have you contributed anything new. Time to pack it in. ========== Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering whale; to the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee.. - Melville.
Anehra X-Fire	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:04:00 - [75] Originally by: Tecknoblaze I for one hate WTZ. Not everyone had instas, or at least complete instas (especially new players) and there was added tension in traveling low sec and 0.0. I felt my safety was restricted to certain regions which in turn gave them more personality and depth, where as now it seems every system/region is almost identical. Furthermore, many players didn't have station instas which added further possibilities. I think WTZ has simplified the game and made it less enjoyable. I really didn't notice a reduction of lag from WTZ either. /sign Add in stuff like: going into hostile 0.0, scouting, making bookmarks to safespots, instas.. high potential of solo or small-gang pvp. Risks. No bubbles, at least I never experiened any in RA and goonspace. It added some nerve. Now it's just all about that bottleneck with 30 ships and whether or not you have enough tank + speed fitted the same time. It's ridicilous. But then again, a few players ruined for the many. shrugs
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:10:00 - [76] Originally by: Ecchus Originally by: Nish'a ehm a freighter MAYBE should be slower than a frigate??? Clearly you still don't understand why MWD is not a solution to the problem. Nor have you contributed anything new. Time to pack it in. I talk about using a mwd and all you come up with is the one and only ship who cant equip it or use a jump device ...
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:15:00 - [77] Originally by: Ecchus Originally by: Nish'a ehm a freighter MAYBE should be slower than a frigate??? Clearly you still don't understand why MWD is not a solution to the problem. Nor have you contributed anything new. Time to pack it in. Clearly you dont even want to think of any other solution ... It definately would be possible to give freighters the ability to warp to zero wouldnt it? but all the other ships as well?
Illyria Ambri Caldari RennTech	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:25:00 - [78] Originally by: Tecknoblaze I for one hate WTZ. Not everyone had instas, or at least complete instas (especially new players) and there was added tension in traveling low sec and 0.0. I felt my safety was restricted to certain regions which in turn gave them more personality and depth, where as now it seems every system/region is almost identical. Furthermore, many players didn't have station instas which added further possibilities. I think WTZ has simplified the game and made it less enjoyable. I really didn't notice a reduction of lag from WTZ either. Condensed version... Waaaaaa I can't pop inexperienced nubs anymore trying to get from point A to point B on their first week of playtime. Who of course wouldn't know any better. Whaaa I pop that newcomer to the region who dosen't have 500 bookmarks for this area of space (yet).. so it must be his fault he got cought by my gank party... Whaaaa I can't shoot easy targets.. Whaaaaa CCP you borked my ganking playstyle cause you wanted less lag on your servers and less DB issues with all the bookmakrs there were in existance.. ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:30:00 - [79] Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Tecknoblaze I for one hate WTZ. Not everyone had instas, or at least complete instas (especially new players) and there was added tension in traveling low sec and 0.0. I felt my safety was restricted to certain regions which in turn gave them more personality and depth, where as now it seems every system/region is almost identical. Furthermore, many players didn't have station instas which added further possibilities. I think WTZ has simplified the game and made it less enjoyable. I really didn't notice a reduction of lag from WTZ either. Condensed version... Waaaaaa I can't pop inexperienced nubs anymore trying to get from point A to point B on their first week of playtime. Who of course wouldn't know any better. Whaaa I pop that newcomer to the region who dosen't have 500 bookmarks for this area of space (yet).. so it must be his fault he got cought by my gank party... Whaaaa I can't shoot easy targets.. Whaaaaa CCP you borked my ganking playstyle cause you wanted less lag on your servers and less DB issues with all the bookmakrs there were in existance.. You are totally wrong. Its even harder to catch these pesky pirates ... Belive me they have more of an advantage out of this wtz thingy than you.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:36:00 - [80] Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Tecknoblaze I for one hate WTZ. Not everyone had instas, or at least complete instas (especially new players) and there was added tension in traveling low sec and 0.0. I felt my safety was restricted to certain regions which in turn gave them more personality and depth, where as now it seems every system/region is almost identical. Furthermore, many players didn't have station instas which added further possibilities. I think WTZ has simplified the game and made it less enjoyable. I really didn't notice a reduction of lag from WTZ either. Condensed version... Waaaaaa I can't pop inexperienced nubs anymore trying to get from point A to point B on their first week of playtime. Who of course wouldn't know any better. Whaaa I pop that newcomer to the region who dosen't have 500 bookmarks for this area of space (yet).. so it must be his fault he got cought by my gank party... Whaaaa I can't shoot easy targets.. Whaaaaa CCP you borked my ganking playstyle cause you wanted less lag on your servers and less DB issues with all the bookmakrs there were in existance.. Christ, not only did you ignore what he had actually said, you didn't actually condense the post at all. DOUBLE FAIL. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Hannobaal Gallente Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:37:00 - [81] Edited by: Hannobaal on 21/06/2007 02:38:25 Maybe my judgement is clouded since I started playing about when Revelations came, but for me the real question is 'Why not be able to warp to 0 km?' Aside from making it very difficult even for small light ships to travel through low-sec (and pretty much impossible for larger ones, although I would say that is already the case even with warp to zero), it doesn't sound to me like those 15 kms adds anything other than an unnecessary, artificial contraint that only makes playing less convenient. ------------------ "If you ever need anything please don't Hesitate to ask someone else first."
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:37:00 - [82] Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Tecknoblaze I for one hate WTZ. Not everyone had instas, or at least complete instas (especially new players) and there was added tension in traveling low sec and 0.0. I felt my safety was restricted to certain regions which in turn gave them more personality and depth, where as now it seems every system/region is almost identical. Furthermore, many players didn't have station instas which added further possibilities. I think WTZ has simplified the game and made it less enjoyable. I really didn't notice a reduction of lag from WTZ either. Condensed version... Waaaaaa I can't pop inexperienced nubs anymore trying to get from point A to point B on their first week of playtime. Who of course wouldn't know any better. Whaaa I pop that newcomer to the region who dosen't have 500 bookmarks for this area of space (yet).. so it must be his fault he got cought by my gank party... Whaaaa I can't shoot easy targets.. Whaaaaa CCP you borked my ganking playstyle cause you wanted less lag on your servers and less DB issues with all the bookmakrs there were in existance.. Those veterans who know and use the gamemechanic to its best are already exactly the players who you will fail to catch due to WTZ. Btw who says you cant slingshot your freighter, hauler with a covert ops ship?
AirWalker Amarr Galactic Response Team	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:37:00 - [83] Originally by: Nish'a Oveur, overruled? I want to see that. Maybe something is being planed ... and this was just an intermediate change. hate to bust your oveur is god bubble but he's not the CEO of CCP or something...i believe thats hellmar...oveur is is a senior dev...or lead not too sure
Illyria Ambri Caldari RennTech	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:38:00 - [84] You would know with your vast playtime and experience with WTZ.. Oh wait.. you quit for a year and just came back.. ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek
Tecknoblaze Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:39:00 - [85] Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Tecknoblaze I for one hate WTZ. Not everyone had instas, or at least complete instas (especially new players) and there was added tension in traveling low sec and 0.0. I felt my safety was restricted to certain regions which in turn gave them more personality and depth, where as now it seems every system/region is almost identical. Furthermore, many players didn't have station instas which added further possibilities. I think WTZ has simplified the game and made it less enjoyable. I really didn't notice a reduction of lag from WTZ either. Condensed version... Waaaaaa I can't pop inexperienced nubs anymore trying to get from point A to point B on their first week of playtime. Who of course wouldn't know any better. Whaaa I pop that newcomer to the region who dosen't have 500 bookmarks for this area of space (yet).. so it must be his fault he got cought by my gank party... Whaaaa I can't shoot easy targets.. Whaaaaa CCP you borked my ganking playstyle cause you wanted less lag on your servers and less DB issues with all the bookmakrs there were in existance.. I don't know why you automatically assume I was the ganker or even that it was even about ganking. I have never "ganked" new players in low sec, at least not the way you are describing it. I have been ganked many times. I have had empire wars in which neither side had extensive bookmarks and were forced to engage at gates or locations of conflict. This meant that only faster ships could get to the action (added tactical dimension) instead of the homogeneous blob that warfare is now. This has nothing to do with my particular play style but rather the reduced variables because everyone now works with the assumption that their enemies are sitting directly on a gate.
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:40:00 - [86] Originally by: Illyria Ambri You would know with your vast playtime and experience with WTZ.. Oh wait.. you quit for a year and just came back.. it seems like others do know tho ...
Illyria Ambri Caldari RennTech	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:41:00 - [87] Originally by: Tecknoblaze I don't know why you automatically assume I was the ganker or even that it was even about ganking. I have never "ganked" new players in low sec, at least not the way you are describing it. I have been ganked many times. I have had empire wars in which neither side had extensive bookmarks and were forced to engage at gates or locations of conflict. This meant that only faster ships could get to the action (added tactical dimension) instead of the homogeneous blob that warfare is now. This has nothing to do with my particular play style but rather the reduced variables because everyone now works with the assumption that their enemies are sitting directly on a gate. Oh? My bad.. I assumed you were the ganking type considering you are in a merc corp in a mercenary allaince. ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek
Illyria Ambri Caldari RennTech	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:43:00 - [88] Originally by: Nish'a Originally by: Illyria Ambri You would know with your vast playtime and experience with WTZ.. Oh wait.. you quit for a year and just came back.. it seems like others do know tho ... Yes.. and do you see them making current threads whineing about an 18 month old topic? ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:44:00 - [89] Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Tecknoblaze I don't know why you automatically assume I was the ganker or even that it was even about ganking. I have never "ganked" new players in low sec, at least not the way you are describing it. I have been ganked many times. I have had empire wars in which neither side had extensive bookmarks and were forced to engage at gates or locations of conflict. This meant that only faster ships could get to the action (added tactical dimension) instead of the homogeneous blob that warfare is now. This has nothing to do with my particular play style but rather the reduced variables because everyone now works with the assumption that their enemies are sitting directly on a gate. Oh? My bad.. I assumed you were the ganking type considering you are in a merc corp in a mercenary allaince. it seems you were wrong
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:50:00 - [90] I mean how on earth could someone want in a game like EVE to have LESS tacitical possibilities... I truly dont understand that.

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