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Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.20 23:54:00 - [1] I left the game over 1 year ago and came back to see all that new stuff which I overall seem to like. However: warp to zero who in their right mind introduced that? I could bet that Oveur swore that this would never happen? Why has he changed his mind? Im lost, for me this is a gamebreaker. God I cant belive that ... Sorry I normally dont whine, but this "warp to zeor issue" really bothers me ... what is the communities take on this? is it overall appreciated ? and again who changed so drastically oveurs mind?
petergriffen Amarr Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.20 23:55:00 - [2] Actually it was a pretty sweet change. All of those BM's O_o
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.06.20 23:57:00 - [3] ... it's like many millions of bookmarks screamed all together in terror and then suddendly vanished Besides, it's not "warp to zero", it's more of a "warp to somewhere randomly between where you wanted and 3km away". _ New char creation guide \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
Loki Life	Posted - 2007.06.20 23:58:00 - [4] How could you not like warp to zero. It cuts down on hours of travel time for those BS's. Put on alot of I-stabs and nanofibers and be across the galaxy in no time. The one thing I don't like about warp to zero is there isn't a warp-to-zero autopilot.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.06.20 23:58:00 - [5] Its given roaming gangs the ability to dodge bubbles just about anywhere (short of large/dictor), and given roaming gangs the ability to cross huge swathes of space without being restricted by their ships' speeds or their sets of bookmarks. The only place its killed is lowsec, which no one used anyway.
Talkie Toaster Amarr Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.06.20 23:58:00 - [6] it was brought in in an attempt to reduce server load. since most people would make a ****load of bookkmarks it just caused lots of extra computing that is now not needed. all it now means that if you are ganking you have to do it when they are aligning to warp instead of running from warp in to the gate. oh, and there is less strain on the pooters.
Larg Kellein Caldari GTE Corp	Posted - 2007.06.20 23:58:00 - [7] Your stuff... can it warp to my hangar? Originally by: Roy Batty68 My software has wronged me!!! And it's immediately "sorry". Well, ok then. I suppose I'm not so upset at my software if it appologizes.
Galactic Overlord CAOD Corp	Posted - 2007.06.20 23:58:00 - [8] www.eve-search.com
Jonny29	Posted - 2007.06.20 23:59:00 - [9] Personally I don't like it, but it is necessary to get rid of all the lag-creating bookmarks. If it were up to me I would have made it impossible to make a BM within ~50km of stations and gates. Now, you can go across the whole universe without ever traveling at sub-warp speeds. That was a pretty hard hit for piracy, that's what made me stop.
Red Gabba JuBa Corp Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.06.20 23:59:00 - [10] Originally by: Nish'a I left the game over 1 year ago and came back to see all that new stuff which I overall seem to like. However: warp to zero who in their right mind introduced that? I could bet that Oveur swore that this would never happen? Why has he changed his mind? Im lost, for me this is a gamebreaker. God I cant belive that ... Sorry I normally dont whine, but this "warp to zeor issue" really bothers me ... what is the communities take on this? is it overall appreciated ? and again who changed so drastically oveurs mind? It was eather warp to 0 or remove bookmarks from the game, i dont like warp to 0 however i can understand why it was introduced
Louis DelaBlanche Cosmic Odyssey YouWhat	Posted - 2007.06.20 23:59:00 - [11] i cant really complain bowt it. Less kills on the imbound side of the gate, hasnt affected the outbound. N given how many gate bms it got rid of, it was a good move imo. Give it a try, youll probably find its changed less then it sounds like it has.
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:00:00 - [12] the issue was bookmarks ??? bms being removed is fine... but what exactly has that to do with warp to zero, for EVERY system, station gate .... this is ******** imo so why did they introduce warp to zero if oveur was so against it, or do I remember something wrong here? Nish'a
petergriffen Amarr Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:01:00 - [13] Originally by: Larg Kellein Your stuff... can it warp to my hangar? winner
Bein Glorious GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:01:00 - [14] instas sucked and you better believe it
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:02:00 - [15] Originally by: Nish'a the issue was bookmarks ??? bms being removed is fine... but what exactly has that to do with warp to zero, for EVERY system, station gate .... this is ******** imo so why did they introduce warp to zero if oveur was so against it, or do I remember something wrong here? Nish'a Everyone already had warp-to-zero. It was called 30,000 instaBMs 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:03:00 - [16] Originally by: Larg Kellein Your stuff... can it warp to my hangar? sure I escrowed it in jita for 480 000 isk it includes 1 trit and a basic damage control uh just realised we have contracts now ....
petergriffen Amarr Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:04:00 - [17] Edited by: petergriffen on 21/06/2007 00:03:39 Originally by: Nish'a the issue was bookmarks ??? bms being removed is fine... but what exactly has that to do with warp to zero, for EVERY system, station gate .... this is ******** imo so why did they introduce warp to zero if oveur was so against it, or do I remember something wrong here? Nish'a Bookmarks weren't removed, they're too useful to take out of the game completely. I can only imagine the backlash if they were taken out... But if I had to guess, I'd say 99% of bookmarks were approximately 15km from any given jump gate. After playing this game for 3 years I had literally thousands of gate-to-gate bookmarks. I was glad to get rid of them. The sheer number of bookmarks being created and copied were putting a heavy strain on the server. Warp to 0km was a great addition. I could swear I heard a huge sigh of relief across the cluster the day it was implemented. It was the only real solution, tbh...
Mari Onette	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:04:00 - [18] meh. the only change since warp to zero is that gate camps are now on the other side of the gate.
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:04:00 - [19] well instas were never intended that way were they??? anyway we could just have removed instas, and made warp in random or make it module based but plain simple warp to zero really stinks in my book
Haffrage Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:06:00 - [20] Originally by: Nish'a well instas were never intended that way were they??? anyway we could just have removed instas, and made warp in random or make it module based but plain simple warp to zero really stinks in my book So instas are okay with you, but the exact same thing in a less lag-inducing form isn't? Explain plz. ----- Tech 2 Tier 2 Battlecruisers
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:07:00 - [21] so has oveur been fired? or why did he change his mind???
TheDevilsJury GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:07:00 - [22] Originally by: Nish'a the issue was bookmarks ??? bms being removed is fine... but what exactly has that to do with warp to zero, for EVERY system, station gate .... this is ******** imo so why did they introduce warp to zero if oveur was so against it, or do I remember something wrong here? Nish'a The thing is I had an insta bookmark for between EVERY system, station, gate .... and everyone else wanted one too so I would copy all 40000 of them and end up lagging out an entire region. Bookmark copying was nerfed just before warp to zero was introduced (you could only copy 5 at a time) and since everyone tried to get the copies done before the patch the lag was so bad it basically shut down the major areas of empire.
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:08:00 - [23] Originally by: Haffrage Originally by: Nish'a well instas were never intended that way were they??? anyway we could just have removed instas, and made warp in random or make it module based but plain simple warp to zero really stinks in my book So instas are okay with you, but the exact same thing in a less lag-inducing form isn't? Explain plz. I should have said bm's were never intended to be instas right?!
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:09:00 - [24] well it's not only warp to zero to gates but stations as well AND from any direction ....
petergriffen Amarr Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:09:00 - [25] Originally by: Nish'a Originally by: Haffrage Originally by: Nish'a well instas were never intended that way were they??? anyway we could just have removed instas, and made warp in random or make it module based but plain simple warp to zero really stinks in my book So instas are okay with you, but the exact same thing in a less lag-inducing form isn't? Explain plz. I should have said bm's were never intended to be instas right?! And jetcans were never intended to be mined into.
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:10:00 - [26] Originally by: petergriffen Originally by: Nish'a Originally by: Haffrage Originally by: Nish'a well instas were never intended that way were they??? anyway we could just have removed instas, and made warp in random or make it module based but plain simple warp to zero really stinks in my book So instas are okay with you, but the exact same thing in a less lag-inducing form isn't? Explain plz. I should have said bm's were never intended to be instas right?! And jetcans were never intended to be mined into. so change it? not like we dont change everything else ...
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:12:00 - [27] Am I the only person who doesnt like this change? So far it seems like everyone is against my opinion.
E Vile	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:12:00 - [28] Edited by: E Vile on 21/06/2007 00:15:53 "lag-creating bookmarks" Prob the biggest reason by far. Not to mention most people used those bookmarks and warped to 0 already. I believe the devs had a descision to make, get rid of bookmarks entirely, or warp to zero considering that bookmark problem was from all the people using bookmarks to ALREADY warp to 0. I think they chose wisely on this one. As another said. If your just mad about your ability to camp gate, do it now on the other side and catch them as they try to warp away. Takes more skill, not as brainless as watching poor suckers fly up to your target range. "The key to immortality is to first live a life worth remembering." Shohadaku New York Metal
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:12:00 - [29] Originally by: Nish'a Am I the only person who doesnt like this change? So far it seems like everyone is against my opinion. You're 18 months late. 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:13:00 - [30] Originally by: E Vile "lag-creating bookmarks" Prob the biggest reason by far. Not to mention most people used those bookmarks and warped to 0 already. actually I dont belive that, but meh ...
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:14:00 - [31] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Nish'a Am I the only person who doesnt like this change? So far it seems like everyone is against my opinion. You're 18 months late. so everyone who disliked this change left the game ???
evs	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:16:00 - [32] im a new player, i wasnt around before warp to zero, all i gotta say is if there wasnt wtz, i prob woulda quit after the trial......and yes ive been ganked a few times in low sec, even WITH wtz if you wanna gank people around gates, you just have to be a LITTLE moer creative about it now
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:16:00 - [33] Originally by: Akita T Besides, it's not "warp to zero", it's more of a "warp to somewhere randomly between where you wanted and 3km away". Quoted for truth. WTZ is somewhat lame. I'd prefer Warp to 10 or something. Just to speed it up. Dunno if I could stand the wait times again. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:18:00 - [34] Originally by: evs im a new player, i wasnt around before warp to zero, all i gotta say is if there wasnt wtz, i prob woulda quit after the trial......and yes ive been ganked a few times in low sec, even WITH wtz if you wanna gank people around gates, you just have to be a LITTLE moer creative about it now that is ok! Just a shame that I really dont like it at all.
Illyria Ambri Caldari RennTech	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:19:00 - [35] The only ppl really effected by WTZ were gate camping pirates.. Oh wait.. all it means is they have to camp the other side of the gate... If they can't get you inbound.. they may get you outbound.. however now its more in the gankees favor then the gankers since we dont have a 15km death run to the gate now.. just gotta warp out fast enough instead. ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:19:00 - [36] Originally by: Frug Originally by: Akita T Besides, it's not "warp to zero", it's more of a "warp to somewhere randomly between where you wanted and 3km away". Quoted for truth. WTZ is somewhat lame. I'd prefer Warp to 10 or something. Just to speed it up. Dunno if I could stand the wait times again. ah first one who agrees, im getting my hopes up again
Illyria Ambri Caldari RennTech	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:21:00 - [37] Originally by: Nish'a Originally by: Frug Originally by: Akita T Besides, it's not "warp to zero", it's more of a "warp to somewhere randomly between where you wanted and 3km away". Quoted for truth. WTZ is somewhat lame. I'd prefer Warp to 10 or something. Just to speed it up. Dunno if I could stand the wait times again. ah first one who agrees, im getting my hopes up again So 1 1/2 years after the fix.. you want to start a crusade for it back?? Continue dreaming.. if you dont like WTZ.. I hear Hello Kitty Online is in need of gankers ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:25:00 - [38] Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Nish'a Originally by: Frug Originally by: Akita T Besides, it's not "warp to zero", it's more of a "warp to somewhere randomly between where you wanted and 3km away". Quoted for truth. WTZ is somewhat lame. I'd prefer Warp to 10 or something. Just to speed it up. Dunno if I could stand the wait times again. ah first one who agrees, im getting my hopes up again So 1 1/2 years after the fix.. you want to start a crusade for it back?? Continue dreaming.. if you dont like WTZ.. I hear Hello Kitty Online is in need of gankers Well, I could be wrong but I somehow remember Oveur being against instas and probably that warp to zero feature. What changed his mind? The carebear crowd? Actually I dont favor the pirate career at all, I rather poised to hunt them ... but how can I if the pirate warps to zero to any location and jumps, docks ???
Miss Wombat	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:30:00 - [39] Edited by: Miss Wombat on 21/06/2007 00:31:21 Please just STFU! Learn to adapt, everyone else has.
Fayn Trak Gallente Myridian Trading Systems	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:32:00 - [40] We did lose somethign with warp to zero I think the following post give the general outline of the downside. Originally by: Loki Life How could you not like warp to zero. It cuts down on hours of travel time for those BS's. Put on alot of I-stabs and nanofibers and be across the galaxy in no time. The one thing I don't like about warp to zero is there isn't a warp-to-zero autopilot. Bookmarks needed to go by the time they were removed I had bookmarks for all of 0.0 and 5 or 6 of the empire regions, if they hadn't provided an alternative the rage of people used to nipping half way across the galaxy to do some shopping would have been tremendous. Also the Privateers would have caused slaughter instead of the disorder the brought to the alliances empire dwellers. A herd of cattle A flock of geese A lot of isk remember when sigs were text?
Illyria Ambri Caldari RennTech	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:32:00 - [41] Originally by: Nish'a Well, I could be wrong but I somehow remember Oveur being against instas and probably that warp to zero feature. What changed his mind? The carebear crowd? Its possible he was against it Its possible he decided in the interests of the game that WTZ was the better option then billions of bookmarks lagging the game Its possible someone else like the Systems engineers decided that billions of bookmarks wasn't the best option. Its possible Oveur was totally against WTZ and got overruled... Its possible he changed his mind. Anything is possible.. but 1 1/12 years down the road with the system already implemented.. does it really matter? Its here.. its staying.. As the pirates like to say.. adapt or quit. All WTZ brought was Faster Travel Forcing the gatecamp to switch to outbound rather then inbound. Less bookmarks and insta's resulting in less lag. Seems like a win all around. Either way.. the horse has been dead and throughly decomposed a long time.. let it RIP. ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:34:00 - [42] Originally by: Fayn Trak We did lose somethign with warp to zero I think the following post give the general outline of the downside. Originally by: Loki Life How could you not like warp to zero. It cuts down on hours of travel time for those BS's. Put on alot of I-stabs and nanofibers and be across the galaxy in no time. The one thing I don't like about warp to zero is there isn't a warp-to-zero autopilot. Bookmarks needed to go by the time they were removed I had bookmarks for all of 0.0 and 5 or 6 of the empire regions, if they hadn't provided an alternative the rage of people used to nipping half way across the galaxy to do some shopping would have been tremendous. Also the Privateers would have caused slaughter instead of the disorder the brought to the alliances empire dwellers. well it also removed the possibilty of regional hubs to form didnt it? Jita is already very croweded ...
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:35:00 - [43] Originally by: Miss Wombat Please just STFU!
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:40:00 - [44] Oveur, overruled? I want to see that. Maybe something is being planed ... and this was just an intermediate change.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:41:00 - [45] Originally by: Nish'a Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Nish'a Am I the only person who doesnt like this change? So far it seems like everyone is against my opinion. You're 18 months late. so everyone who disliked this change left the game ??? No. But I'd say even most of the people who disliked the change are still tired of all the debates leading up to it, and not in the least bit hopeful that it will ever change back. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
petergriffen Amarr Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:44:00 - [46] You don't have to believe it for it to be true. Bookmarks aren't stored locally on your computer, they're handled by the cluster. A couple hundred people copying a few thousand bookmarks can easily cause unnecessary lag.
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:45:00 - [47] Originally by: petergriffen You don't have to believe it for it to be true. Bookmarks aren't stored locally on your computer, they're handled by the cluster. A couple hundred people copying a few thousand bookmarks can easily cause unnecessary lag. ehm the solution to instas doesnt necessarily need to be: warp to zero does it?
Illyria Ambri Caldari RennTech	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:45:00 - [48] Originally by: Nish'a Oveur, overruled? I want to see that. Maybe something is being planed ... and this was just an intermediate change. Maybe you're just delusional and been popping too many boosters.. Either way.. time to let this thread die.. you go ahead and wait.. QUIETLY.. for whatever may be planned. ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:46:00 - [49] Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Nish'a Oveur, overruled? I want to see that. Maybe something is being planed ... and this was just an intermediate change. Maybe you're just delusional and been popping too many boosters.. Either way.. time to let this thread die.. you go ahead and wait.. QUIETLY.. for whatever may be planned. let me hear some more opinions, ok?
MehTheTrader University of Caille	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:49:00 - [50] Totally wrong, there was no need for wtz to get rid of bm. You can make a 10 km type warp inhibitor around stargate, then there would be no need for bookmarks anyways.
Annika MonSulu	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:50:00 - [51] Edited by: Annika MonSulu on 21/06/2007 00:49:50 Originally by: Nish'a Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Nish'a Oveur, overruled? I want to see that. Maybe something is being planed ... and this was just an intermediate change. Maybe you're just delusional and been popping too many boosters.. Either way.. time to let this thread die.. you go ahead and wait.. QUIETLY.. for whatever may be planned. let me hear some more opinions, ok? I rather imagine you are going to find more and more opinions rolling in; not on the subject of the thread, but rather more in line with... CMN
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:52:00 - [52] Edited by: Nish''a on 21/06/2007 00:51:26 Originally by: Annika MonSulu Edited by: Annika MonSulu on 21/06/2007 00:49:50 Originally by: Nish'a Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Nish'a Oveur, overruled? I want to see that. Maybe something is being planed ... and this was just an intermediate change. Maybe you're just delusional and been popping too many boosters.. Either way.. time to let this thread die.. you go ahead and wait.. QUIETLY.. for whatever may be planned. let me hear some more opinions, ok? I rather imagine you are going to find more and more opinions rolling in; not on the subject of the thread, but rather more in line with... CMN ah you edited ... nevermind
Annika MonSulu	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:54:00 - [53] Originally by: MehTheTrader Totally wrong, there was no need for wtz to get rid of bm. You can make a 10 km type warp inhibitor around stargate, then there would be no need for bookmarks anyways. That would have been a great idea! Not only would you have a 10KM run to get to the gate, but a 10KM run to get away from it to warp on the other side. Yeah, that would have had no negative impact on the player economy at all!
JADE DRAG0NESS Native Freshfood	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:54:00 - [54] Originally by: Nish'a Originally by: petergriffen You don't have to believe it for it to be true. Bookmarks aren't stored locally on your computer, they're handled by the cluster. A couple hundred people copying a few thousand bookmarks can easily cause unnecessary lag. ehm the solution to instas doesnt necessarily need to be: warp to zero does it? Then by all means tell us how it could be done. "Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Jean Rostand
Vana Gank Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:56:00 - [55] adapt in game dont adapt on the forums -------------------------- Please adjust the map, please. Im not clever enough to figure out which way to fly.
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:56:00 - [56] Originally by: Annika MonSulu Originally by: MehTheTrader Totally wrong, there was no need for wtz to get rid of bm. You can make a 10 km type warp inhibitor around stargate, then there would be no need for bookmarks anyways. That would have been a great idea! Not only would you have a 10KM run to get to the gate, but a 10KM run to get away from it to warp on the other side. Yeah, that would have had no negative impact on the player economy at all! why is any type of impact on the economy bad? imo battleships are already way to easy to come by ... if I think of beta, I preferred it the harder way ...
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:58:00 - [57] Originally by: JADE DRAG0NESS Originally by: Nish'a Originally by: petergriffen You don't have to believe it for it to be true. Bookmarks aren't stored locally on your computer, they're handled by the cluster. A couple hundred people copying a few thousand bookmarks can easily cause unnecessary lag. ehm the solution to instas doesnt necessarily need to be: warp to zero does it? Then by all means tell us how it could be done. if you think of it that bookmarks themself were not intended as instas you already have your solution ...
petergriffen Amarr Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.21 01:05:00 - [58] Originally by: Nish'a Originally by: JADE DRAG0NESS Originally by: Nish'a Originally by: petergriffen You don't have to believe it for it to be true. Bookmarks aren't stored locally on your computer, they're handled by the cluster. A couple hundred people copying a few thousand bookmarks can easily cause unnecessary lag. ehm the solution to instas doesnt necessarily need to be: warp to zero does it? Then by all means tell us how it could be done. if you think of it that bookmarks themself were not intended as instas you already have your solution ... You're beginning to remind me of all of the old Beta CS players who refuse to play 1.6/source because the changes didn't suit the way they wanted to play...
Annika MonSulu	Posted - 2007.06.21 01:09:00 - [59] Originally by: Nish'a Originally by: Annika MonSulu Originally by: MehTheTrader Totally wrong, there was no need for wtz to get rid of bm. You can make a 10 km type warp inhibitor around stargate, then there would be no need for bookmarks anyways. That would have been a great idea! Not only would you have a 10KM run to get to the gate, but a 10KM run to get away from it to warp on the other side. Yeah, that would have had no negative impact on the player economy at all! why is any type of impact on the economy bad? imo battleships are already way to easy to come by ... if I think of beta, I preferred it the harder way ... any type of impact is not bad for an economy. BAD impacts are bad for the economy. If you think long and hard about how a complete and total shutdown of the movement of anything larger than 500m3 (without heavy manned escort)would be, you will soon find the answer as to why that would be a BAD idea.
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 01:13:00 - [60] Originally by: Annika MonSulu Originally by: Nish'a Originally by: Annika MonSulu Originally by: MehTheTrader Totally wrong, there was no need for wtz to get rid of bm. You can make a 10 km type warp inhibitor around stargate, then there would be no need for bookmarks anyways. That would have been a great idea! Not only would you have a 10KM run to get to the gate, but a 10KM run to get away from it to warp on the other side. Yeah, that would have had no negative impact on the player economy at all! why is any type of impact on the economy bad? imo battleships are already way to easy to come by ... if I think of beta, I preferred it the harder way ... any type of impact is not bad for an economy. BAD impacts are bad for the economy. If you think long and hard about how a complete and total shutdown of the movement of anything larger than 500m3 (without heavy manned escort)would be, you will soon find the answer as to why that would be a BAD idea. Imo this would only promote corps and playing with others in a Massive Multiplayer game. If you try to look at the big picture you may find out you are neither right nor wrong.
Neuromandis Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.21 01:19:00 - [61] Since : * whomever wanted to could make bookmarks (tedious but that's it, and they weren't THAT expensive to buy anyway) and effectively warp-to-zero * everyone needs them, almost everyone liked them. There is a single class of people that didn't like them: Pirates that exclusively fed on people travelling without instas. Who then adapted, camped the other side, kill people just fine, they have to work a bit harder (read: no free lunch) and everyone is fine. Get over it, it's nice to be able to travel freely.
Hannobaal Gallente Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.21 01:20:00 - [62] Considering the fact that anything cruiser sized or larger can be tackled with ease long before it can get into warp (with the exception of Stabber and Vagabond I guess), I don't see what the problem is. If they jump in, you will catch them. If they warp on the gate you're at, you jump with them and catch them on the other side. Where is the big problem here? ------------------ "If you ever need anything please don't Hesitate to ask someone else first."
Verite Rendition Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2007.06.21 01:25:00 - [63] Nish'a, did you eat lead paint chips as a kid or something? DS is right, you're 18 months late, that's practically an eternity for this game. WTZ is here, it's done, it's not changing. Everyone else has adapted and learned not to whine, you should too. Otherwise if you want to remain stuck in the past, we could have a very interesting argument about how to weed out the commies in America. ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic
Hannobaal Gallente Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.21 01:27:00 - [64] As far as I'm aware, the change happened mid fall last year, not 18 months ago. ------------------ "If you ever need anything please don't Hesitate to ask someone else first."
Verite Rendition Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2007.06.21 01:29:00 - [65] Originally by: Hannobaal As far as I'm aware, the change happened mid fall last year, not 18 months ago. Don't be a smart-ass, you're egging him on. ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic
Arduus Eruditio NQX Innovations	Posted - 2007.06.21 01:33:00 - [66] Originally by: Annika MonSulu Originally by: MehTheTrader Totally wrong, there was no need for wtz to get rid of bm. You can make a 10 km type warp inhibitor around stargate, then there would be no need for bookmarks anyways. That would have been a great idea! Not only would you have a 10KM run to get to the gate, but a 10KM run to get away from it to warp on the other side. Yeah, that would have had no negative impact on the player economy at all! Yes, that might be relevant if it weren't for the fact that you spawn about 15km away from the gate once you jump through. Think before you post next time.
Ecchus Minmatar Egbinger Mining Co	Posted - 2007.06.21 01:39:00 - [67] I'm guessing you missed the huge debate leading up to the implementation of WTZ, so let's recap in the old days when JohnnyBookmarkSeller made a copy of his Querious Regional Bookmark set (517 total bookmarks IIRC) he would start the copy and leave it running, bogging down the database AND the node he was on til the copy completed, which could take hours. His entire corp would be doing the exact same thing since one region set would sell for 5-40mill. And a few dozen other corps would be doing it also, it was lucrative as hell. On top of that, when a player loads their list of bookmarks, it accesses the database. When they warp-to a bookmark it does the same thing. Now think about say 1000 people in Querious each loading up their set of instas and do the math. That's a lot of computer time and it causes problems all over the place. So the entire Eve community got in on giving suggestions. This was also known as "Whining About Instas on the Forums and Threatening to Quit". It got so bad that for a long time there was one designated epic thread for insta discussion and all other threads were locked or deleted. In the end, two things happened. First was a restriction in the UI that made it impossible to copy more than 5 bookmarks at a time. This change was announced before it was implemented. Those of us who were around can tell you that the game was unplayable for the last few days before that patch. CCP reported later than something around 250,000 bookmark copies were made in the last 12 hours before the patch. This still didn't fix the problem, database lag was still severe. So WTZ came to be because it was the best way to solve the problem and appease the most players. Personally it hasn't made that much difference to me. Now as for some of the other points you tried to make on this topic. "WTZ will prevent regional hubs." Remember Yulai? There were no regional hubs before WTZ because people will always travel for a good price if they have the time. If they don't, people like me will make money off of them. "Bookmarks were never intended as instas." And? Intention doesn't matter, this is what they were used for. Unintended usage caused a problem. The problem was fixed. It could have been fixed by disallowing bookmarks within a certain distance of gates/stations, but that took out quick travel. And No One wants slower travel. "Oveur didn't want this." Oveur has done a fine job responding to the needs of both the game and the players. Games like this grow and change over time, things that might once have been unthinkable might eventually become inescapable. If its a choice between the game being playable and being unplayable, which is the right one to make? In closing, you have yet to suggest a better alternative to WTZ. And by better I mean not only "better", but "practical to implement", "simple to use", "guaranteed not to ** off the players", and "in keeping with the goals of the game". While you are free to express your opinion on the forums, bear in mind that this subject has been hashed out to infinity already, a solution implemented, and then adapted to by the players. No matter what you have to say, chances are its been said already. So until you've read the entirety of the debate on instas and until you come up with something new** to add to it, its time for you to sit down. Or time for you to give your stuff to someone else and quit. Not to me, I don't need it. ========== Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering whale; to the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee.. - Melville.
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 01:47:00 - [68] no one wants slower travel ... that argument I dont understand ... with a mwd you are pretty fast arent you?
Corporati Capitalis	Posted - 2007.06.21 01:48:00 - [69] Originally by: Hannobaal As far as I'm aware, the change happened mid fall last year, not 18 months ago. It only took 3 pages for someone to notice this. Sweet!
Ecchus Minmatar Egbinger Mining Co	Posted - 2007.06.21 01:50:00 - [70] Originally by: Nish'a no one wants slower travel ... that argument I dont understand ... with a mwd you are pretty fast arent you? Fit an MWD on a freighter. I dare you. ========== Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering whale; to the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee.. - Melville.
Illyria Ambri Caldari RennTech	Posted - 2007.06.21 01:51:00 - [71] Originally by: Nish'a no one wants slower travel ... that argument I dont understand ... with a mwd you are pretty fast arent you? Yes a MWD can make you fast. No a MWD or an AFB will not cause the removal of WTZ. Dude.. just stop posting and making yourself more of a fool. ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 01:51:00 - [72] ehm a freighter MAYBE should be slower than a frigate???
Tecknoblaze Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:01:00 - [73] I for one hate WTZ. Not everyone had instas, or at least complete instas (especially new players) and there was added tension in traveling low sec and 0.0. I felt my safety was restricted to certain regions which in turn gave them more personality and depth, where as now it seems every system/region is almost identical. Furthermore, many players didn't have station instas which added further possibilities. I think WTZ has simplified the game and made it less enjoyable. I really didn't notice a reduction of lag from WTZ either.
Ecchus Minmatar Egbinger Mining Co	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:04:00 - [74] Originally by: Nish'a ehm a freighter MAYBE should be slower than a frigate??? Clearly you still don't understand why MWD is not a solution to the problem. Nor have you contributed anything new. Time to pack it in. ========== Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering whale; to the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee.. - Melville.
Anehra X-Fire	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:04:00 - [75] Originally by: Tecknoblaze I for one hate WTZ. Not everyone had instas, or at least complete instas (especially new players) and there was added tension in traveling low sec and 0.0. I felt my safety was restricted to certain regions which in turn gave them more personality and depth, where as now it seems every system/region is almost identical. Furthermore, many players didn't have station instas which added further possibilities. I think WTZ has simplified the game and made it less enjoyable. I really didn't notice a reduction of lag from WTZ either. /sign Add in stuff like: going into hostile 0.0, scouting, making bookmarks to safespots, instas.. high potential of solo or small-gang pvp. Risks. No bubbles, at least I never experiened any in RA and goonspace. It added some nerve. Now it's just all about that bottleneck with 30 ships and whether or not you have enough tank + speed fitted the same time. It's ridicilous. But then again, a few players ruined for the many. shrugs
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:10:00 - [76] Originally by: Ecchus Originally by: Nish'a ehm a freighter MAYBE should be slower than a frigate??? Clearly you still don't understand why MWD is not a solution to the problem. Nor have you contributed anything new. Time to pack it in. I talk about using a mwd and all you come up with is the one and only ship who cant equip it or use a jump device ...
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:15:00 - [77] Originally by: Ecchus Originally by: Nish'a ehm a freighter MAYBE should be slower than a frigate??? Clearly you still don't understand why MWD is not a solution to the problem. Nor have you contributed anything new. Time to pack it in. Clearly you dont even want to think of any other solution ... It definately would be possible to give freighters the ability to warp to zero wouldnt it? but all the other ships as well?
Illyria Ambri Caldari RennTech	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:25:00 - [78] Originally by: Tecknoblaze I for one hate WTZ. Not everyone had instas, or at least complete instas (especially new players) and there was added tension in traveling low sec and 0.0. I felt my safety was restricted to certain regions which in turn gave them more personality and depth, where as now it seems every system/region is almost identical. Furthermore, many players didn't have station instas which added further possibilities. I think WTZ has simplified the game and made it less enjoyable. I really didn't notice a reduction of lag from WTZ either. Condensed version... Waaaaaa I can't pop inexperienced nubs anymore trying to get from point A to point B on their first week of playtime. Who of course wouldn't know any better. Whaaa I pop that newcomer to the region who dosen't have 500 bookmarks for this area of space (yet).. so it must be his fault he got cought by my gank party... Whaaaa I can't shoot easy targets.. Whaaaaa CCP you borked my ganking playstyle cause you wanted less lag on your servers and less DB issues with all the bookmakrs there were in existance.. ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:30:00 - [79] Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Tecknoblaze I for one hate WTZ. Not everyone had instas, or at least complete instas (especially new players) and there was added tension in traveling low sec and 0.0. I felt my safety was restricted to certain regions which in turn gave them more personality and depth, where as now it seems every system/region is almost identical. Furthermore, many players didn't have station instas which added further possibilities. I think WTZ has simplified the game and made it less enjoyable. I really didn't notice a reduction of lag from WTZ either. Condensed version... Waaaaaa I can't pop inexperienced nubs anymore trying to get from point A to point B on their first week of playtime. Who of course wouldn't know any better. Whaaa I pop that newcomer to the region who dosen't have 500 bookmarks for this area of space (yet).. so it must be his fault he got cought by my gank party... Whaaaa I can't shoot easy targets.. Whaaaaa CCP you borked my ganking playstyle cause you wanted less lag on your servers and less DB issues with all the bookmakrs there were in existance.. You are totally wrong. Its even harder to catch these pesky pirates ... Belive me they have more of an advantage out of this wtz thingy than you.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:36:00 - [80] Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Tecknoblaze I for one hate WTZ. Not everyone had instas, or at least complete instas (especially new players) and there was added tension in traveling low sec and 0.0. I felt my safety was restricted to certain regions which in turn gave them more personality and depth, where as now it seems every system/region is almost identical. Furthermore, many players didn't have station instas which added further possibilities. I think WTZ has simplified the game and made it less enjoyable. I really didn't notice a reduction of lag from WTZ either. Condensed version... Waaaaaa I can't pop inexperienced nubs anymore trying to get from point A to point B on their first week of playtime. Who of course wouldn't know any better. Whaaa I pop that newcomer to the region who dosen't have 500 bookmarks for this area of space (yet).. so it must be his fault he got cought by my gank party... Whaaaa I can't shoot easy targets.. Whaaaaa CCP you borked my ganking playstyle cause you wanted less lag on your servers and less DB issues with all the bookmakrs there were in existance.. Christ, not only did you ignore what he had actually said, you didn't actually condense the post at all. DOUBLE FAIL. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Hannobaal Gallente Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:37:00 - [81] Edited by: Hannobaal on 21/06/2007 02:38:25 Maybe my judgement is clouded since I started playing about when Revelations came, but for me the real question is 'Why not be able to warp to 0 km?' Aside from making it very difficult even for small light ships to travel through low-sec (and pretty much impossible for larger ones, although I would say that is already the case even with warp to zero), it doesn't sound to me like those 15 kms adds anything other than an unnecessary, artificial contraint that only makes playing less convenient. ------------------ "If you ever need anything please don't Hesitate to ask someone else first."
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:37:00 - [82] Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Tecknoblaze I for one hate WTZ. Not everyone had instas, or at least complete instas (especially new players) and there was added tension in traveling low sec and 0.0. I felt my safety was restricted to certain regions which in turn gave them more personality and depth, where as now it seems every system/region is almost identical. Furthermore, many players didn't have station instas which added further possibilities. I think WTZ has simplified the game and made it less enjoyable. I really didn't notice a reduction of lag from WTZ either. Condensed version... Waaaaaa I can't pop inexperienced nubs anymore trying to get from point A to point B on their first week of playtime. Who of course wouldn't know any better. Whaaa I pop that newcomer to the region who dosen't have 500 bookmarks for this area of space (yet).. so it must be his fault he got cought by my gank party... Whaaaa I can't shoot easy targets.. Whaaaaa CCP you borked my ganking playstyle cause you wanted less lag on your servers and less DB issues with all the bookmakrs there were in existance.. Those veterans who know and use the gamemechanic to its best are already exactly the players who you will fail to catch due to WTZ. Btw who says you cant slingshot your freighter, hauler with a covert ops ship?
AirWalker Amarr Galactic Response Team	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:37:00 - [83] Originally by: Nish'a Oveur, overruled? I want to see that. Maybe something is being planed ... and this was just an intermediate change. hate to bust your oveur is god bubble but he's not the CEO of CCP or something...i believe thats hellmar...oveur is is a senior dev...or lead not too sure
Illyria Ambri Caldari RennTech	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:38:00 - [84] You would know with your vast playtime and experience with WTZ.. Oh wait.. you quit for a year and just came back.. ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek
Tecknoblaze Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:39:00 - [85] Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Tecknoblaze I for one hate WTZ. Not everyone had instas, or at least complete instas (especially new players) and there was added tension in traveling low sec and 0.0. I felt my safety was restricted to certain regions which in turn gave them more personality and depth, where as now it seems every system/region is almost identical. Furthermore, many players didn't have station instas which added further possibilities. I think WTZ has simplified the game and made it less enjoyable. I really didn't notice a reduction of lag from WTZ either. Condensed version... Waaaaaa I can't pop inexperienced nubs anymore trying to get from point A to point B on their first week of playtime. Who of course wouldn't know any better. Whaaa I pop that newcomer to the region who dosen't have 500 bookmarks for this area of space (yet).. so it must be his fault he got cought by my gank party... Whaaaa I can't shoot easy targets.. Whaaaaa CCP you borked my ganking playstyle cause you wanted less lag on your servers and less DB issues with all the bookmakrs there were in existance.. I don't know why you automatically assume I was the ganker or even that it was even about ganking. I have never "ganked" new players in low sec, at least not the way you are describing it. I have been ganked many times. I have had empire wars in which neither side had extensive bookmarks and were forced to engage at gates or locations of conflict. This meant that only faster ships could get to the action (added tactical dimension) instead of the homogeneous blob that warfare is now. This has nothing to do with my particular play style but rather the reduced variables because everyone now works with the assumption that their enemies are sitting directly on a gate.
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:40:00 - [86] Originally by: Illyria Ambri You would know with your vast playtime and experience with WTZ.. Oh wait.. you quit for a year and just came back.. it seems like others do know tho ...
Illyria Ambri Caldari RennTech	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:41:00 - [87] Originally by: Tecknoblaze I don't know why you automatically assume I was the ganker or even that it was even about ganking. I have never "ganked" new players in low sec, at least not the way you are describing it. I have been ganked many times. I have had empire wars in which neither side had extensive bookmarks and were forced to engage at gates or locations of conflict. This meant that only faster ships could get to the action (added tactical dimension) instead of the homogeneous blob that warfare is now. This has nothing to do with my particular play style but rather the reduced variables because everyone now works with the assumption that their enemies are sitting directly on a gate. Oh? My bad.. I assumed you were the ganking type considering you are in a merc corp in a mercenary allaince. ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek
Illyria Ambri Caldari RennTech	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:43:00 - [88] Originally by: Nish'a Originally by: Illyria Ambri You would know with your vast playtime and experience with WTZ.. Oh wait.. you quit for a year and just came back.. it seems like others do know tho ... Yes.. and do you see them making current threads whineing about an 18 month old topic? ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:44:00 - [89] Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Tecknoblaze I don't know why you automatically assume I was the ganker or even that it was even about ganking. I have never "ganked" new players in low sec, at least not the way you are describing it. I have been ganked many times. I have had empire wars in which neither side had extensive bookmarks and were forced to engage at gates or locations of conflict. This meant that only faster ships could get to the action (added tactical dimension) instead of the homogeneous blob that warfare is now. This has nothing to do with my particular play style but rather the reduced variables because everyone now works with the assumption that their enemies are sitting directly on a gate. Oh? My bad.. I assumed you were the ganking type considering you are in a merc corp in a mercenary allaince. it seems you were wrong
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:50:00 - [90] I mean how on earth could someone want in a game like EVE to have LESS tacitical possibilities... I truly dont understand that.
The Socialworker Minmatar The Socialworkers	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:52:00 - [91] I Agree with you Nish'a. Wtz was a bad/lazy solution to the bm problem that detracted from the game. Also like you I wasn't a gate ganking pirate. I think players should have been restricted to a maximum number of bookmarks. The boat did leave a long time ago on this one though.
Broska coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:52:00 - [92] I've just come back from the game after being away for 3 years. I'm with you 100%. If CCP Don't return the gankagedddon to it's 7 Heatsink unstacking nerfed power I'm going to cancel my account again. ------------------------------ Originally by: Tovarishch flying a Scorp into a fleet battle is like parking a pink moped in front of a biker bar - you will die... quickly.
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:53:00 - [93] Originally by: Nish'a ehm a freighter MAYBE should be slower than a frigate??? yup :P lol but the thing is I joined before the change and I never warped to 15 km0 we had 900 bms in our corp hanger for that and we got paid 10,000 for each new bookmark added to the mix after about 2 months I never used warp to 15 I always warped to 0 so while I don't know if WTZ is the best change it was going to happen over time one way or the other as in everyone would be using player made WTZ I still remeber waiting 20 misa of lag for each new batch of 100 bookmarks but worry not! planets are going to become the new camping spot very soon :) personaly I think stations should have a 10 km no warp bubble around them so nothing crashes into them RP wise to the OP, I think they will change it again, but as it was everyone in every major corp had WTZ allready So they need to find a new system you can still use bubbles or 8 large smartbombing batleships to intsa pop anything that warps in :) also they are introduciong implants that increase your warp speed meaning soon we might be able to get AHEAD of the people wer crashing while in warp wouldn't that be fun?
Hannobaal Gallente Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.21 02:57:00 - [94] Originally by: MotherMoon Edited by: MotherMoon on 21/06/2007 02:54:23 also they are introduciong implants that increase your warp speed meaning soon we might be able to get AHEAD of the people we're chasing while in warp wouldn't that be fun? There are already rigs for that. ------------------ "If you ever need anything please don't Hesitate to ask someone else first."
Anehra X-Fire	Posted - 2007.06.21 03:02:00 - [95] Originally by: Hannobaal Edited by: Hannobaal on 21/06/2007 02:38:25 Maybe my judgement is clouded since I started playing about when Revelations came, but for me the real question is 'Why not be able to warp to 0 km?' Aside from making it very difficult even for small light ships to travel through low-sec (and pretty much impossible for larger ones, although I would say that is already the case even with warp to zero), it doesn't sound to me like those 15 kms adds anything other than an unnecessary, artificial contraint that only makes playing less convenient. 1) It was a hell of a lot less bubblcamps back then. If you wanted to defend 0.0 you had intel channels and could usually catch them between gates. -a) thus less people wasting valuable game time doing nothing. -b) thus roaming gang and small gang pvp being alot more viable. -c) thus alot better accibility to the game for casual gamers. 2) It gave alot more risk when transporting. Carebearing today is so dull that it's not even true. I jumped 10 transport ships from 0.0 to Empire and back the same day, by using a scout and warp to zero. Hostiles in half of the systems, noone could catch me. You could argue that the same happened with bookmarks around? Yes and no. You stil had to get the bookmarks, which either took alot of time to do yourself, and was risky, or you would copy it from friends (which also took alot of time). The risks were higher, the bubbles less, the accessibility to the game was higher, less time spent doing nothing. More action, more thrill, less zzzleepy. Yes I do appreciate WTZ alot, it simplies my gaming and I'm often happy that it is there. But in general, I think it was a bad idea, as it killed the risks and much of pvp.
The Socialworker Minmatar The Socialworkers	Posted - 2007.06.21 03:08:00 - [96] Well put Anehera
Kaathar Rielspar Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.06.21 03:13:00 - [97] as previously mentioned, you're about 18 months behind schedule. adapt. constructive: pre-WTZ, everyone (read: competent player) had full regional sets for the region(s) they operated in. If you didn't have these BM's you couldn't compete. so on the assumption that everyone (read: competent player) is going to end up every region BM'd eventually, why not just enable WTZ and save yourself a ton of unnecessary database work. you didn't outline the reasons for your dislike of this feature in your OP, so what is your problem with it? ____________________
Callthetruth Caldari Logical Logtistics	Posted - 2007.06.21 03:16:00 - [98] actually living with it for 8 months its been quite good
The Socialworker Minmatar The Socialworkers	Posted - 2007.06.21 03:19:00 - [99] Originally by: Kaathar Rielspar) so on the assumption that everyone (read: competent player) is going to end up every region BM'd eventually, why not just enable WTZ and save yourself a ton of unnecessary database work.quote That is the line ccp went for, but it was obviously not the only solution to the Bm problem.
Abye Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.06.21 03:22:00 - [100] Originally by: Broska I've just come back from the game after being away for 3 years. I'm with you 100%. If CCP Don't return the gankagedddon to it's 7 Heatsink unstacking nerfed power I'm going to cancel my account again. They need to get the Nanobattleships back before that ! ___ Inappropriate signature. Please do not use this signature. Email us for more information -Eldo ([email protected])
Kaathar Rielspar Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.06.21 03:27:00 - [101] Edited by: Kaathar Rielspar on 21/06/2007 03:27:09 Edited by: Kaathar Rielspar on 21/06/2007 03:26:39 Originally by: The Socialworker That is the line ccp went for, but it was obviously not the only solution to the Bm problem. it might not be the only solution but it was the best one FACT: without instas you are at an immediate disadvantage to someone with them SOLUTION: get a copy of the instas the only thing that really changed was making it so everyone (read: competent players) didn't have to copy a huge can of BM's anyone trying to operate competitively pre-wtz without instas was either a fool or lazy edit: quote tags seem to be screwy ____________________
Thundercat Doom Minmatar Melissa Jumpclones INC	Posted - 2007.06.21 03:50:00 - [102] Yawn. -------------------- -------------------- Flamers are Lamers.
Dahin Maza Nostra oooh Shiny	Posted - 2007.06.21 04:28:00 - [103] The fact that each one likes his faster travel cannot be debated. What is the problem is that EVERYONE gets the same thing. Given that in an mmo like this only the difference of abilities between players count, nothing serious changed in the balance of playing. BUT, a whole lot changed in the game itself. First of all and most obvious is the perceivable size of eve. Remember back in the days where eve seemed vast beyond any possible direct travel? Well guess what, I daily traverse the entire map without even thinking about it twice (rebirth helped a lot). Curse and delve are a breath away. We could only imagine what would happen before wtz came, we now see it. See that blob 50j away? Count to ten and they're ontop of you. Space suddenly became tiny. Power projection via bs' is something you can easily do 30j away and then back. It really makes not much of a difference if you're in a frig or a bs, just a few secs per gate (like 2-3). Market? well, you get jita. If traveltime is a non-issue, you get jita. Why sell somewhere 20j away when nobody even cares to check there nowadays? I go to have my coffee in jita. Politics? Omg look at the mess. The portals where used as an extreme bad example ample of times in the subject, and lo and behold, eve is about to get portals-on-demand all over the place. Yes, the bm's where a serious problem, but there were ooh-so many ways to correct it. One was even applied on the patchday. The global bm nerf that auto-rid us of the bookmarks. Another less intrusive would be the now pos-employed warp bubble that just doesn't let you land on the pos itself. Nish'a, you will find that CCP is slowly turning into those soft fluffy WoW-type developing studios that we see all over the place. There is no "yarrrr" left in em :( Shooting their own great game on the foot bit by bit. You should not be surprised if more than half of the "old guys" are no longer.
Prieith Advanced Security And Asset Protection	Posted - 2007.06.21 05:18:00 - [104] http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=465368 Do some more research and you will find your answer, it's all in here already.
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2007.06.21 05:38:00 - [105] Originally by: Nish'a I mean how on earth could someone want in a game like EVE to have LESS tacitical possibilities... I truly dont understand that. Common! Give it a try! You see, nothing have changed really with Warp to zero. You will have to adjust your gameplay a little. Pirates can still do gatecamps and all that. Its called adaption. Yes, there where whining on the forums when it hit, but most people who whined about it where pirates. They thought less victims coming there way. And yes, any pirates who did not want to adapt saw less victims. However, those pirates who adapted just very very little, still got their targets! I think Veto made a post about it the same day, if not the day before how easily pirates could not just adjust their tactics, but also to improve it!! So in the end, there where only winners: we dont need all those thousands of bookmarks, while the servers had reduced workload which again gave us less lag. As said a win-win situation for us and CCP. Most people today takes it for granted. Its a good feature - a good change. Adapt to it! Its not difficult! And it does not reduce your capability the slightest! Originally by: Eldo Davip PORTRAITS OMFG WOOT. WE R GONIG FOR MROE BREEE!!!!11
Snake Jankins Minmatar Cult of War	Posted - 2007.06.21 05:59:00 - [106] Edited by: Snake Jankins on 21/06/2007 06:01:07 The question was not between lag and warp to zero. They could have shortened all warp path that end close to a gate or station in a way that they end x km from the gate/station, which would have made all insta bms useless and new ones uncreateable. Then they could have cleaned up the database or waited until people delete the useless instas themselves, like they did with wtz, and we would have had pretty much the same situation bookmark-wise and lag-wise, just not with warp-to-zero. There was really no technical reason that stopped CCP from enforcing, what they had originally in mind with warp to 15km and killing the insta-generated lag at the same time. But what happened was that there was an outcry of the community, insta carebears crying that they get ganked, other insta users crying about travel times, some stating that they leave without instas or wtz, so ccp gave in at some point, since wtz seemed to be the solution that made the least people cry. Problem solved, no daily whines about it anymore. ___________ 'Only ships can be assembled, this is a Frigate.'
Dufas Amarr Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.06.21 06:30:00 - [107] I have a buddy who had bm's for the entire eve map...yes all of it...and if he opened p&p i wouldnt see him again for 3 days ________ RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Free Paris!!!!
Roland San	Posted - 2007.06.21 07:24:00 - [108] Instas were WTZ + a ton of bookmarks. Instas were a pain to make and use, or even to buy and copy. Opening that tab quite literally froze my screen for up to a couple of minutes. While I do see the have limited tactical choices in a way, I also do see that eve would've collapsed under its own weight of instas with the playerbase population increase and all the other bits n pieces and wrecks introduced. It's the lesser of two evils, really. It doesn't kill the game (unless you operated entirely as an inbound gate-camper), but I'm kinda sure in a way it did save it. Imagine today's 1,000+ folks in Jita, with insta bookmarks thrown in...
Sentinel Eeex Caldari Lords Of Amber	Posted - 2007.06.21 07:52:00 - [109] Originally by: Nish'a so has oveur been fired? or why did he change his mind??? Send him an email and ask him. Or search hundreds of older threads. Stop whining here, you're beating a dead horse.
tiewan	Posted - 2007.06.21 07:52:00 - [110] Originally by: Nish'a Originally by: E Vile "lag-creating bookmarks" Prob the biggest reason by far. Not to mention most people used those bookmarks and warped to 0 already. actually I dont belive that, but meh ... Hah!!!! Well you were clearly not here on the day they announced that people would only be able to copy a limited number of bookmarks at once.... So what did everyone do? Tried to copy as many BM's as possible before the new rule went into effect.. bringing the server to its knees. Bookmarks being used as intended don't cause much strain on the server.. But people making thousands and trying to copy thousands constantly every single day caused huge problems.
tiewan	Posted - 2007.06.21 07:55:00 - [111] Btw.. Overall I like WTZ.. Because making bookmarks was a pain in the ass and it was the only way to navigate quickly and safely. I do miss seeing more people around gates and stations.. it makes eve feel smaller.. But.. with all the scanning stuff.. I think planets are going to see a lot more people around them now... Could become a new fun spot for pirates
Ashaz Mindstar Technology United Confederation of Corporations	Posted - 2007.06.21 08:32:00 - [112] Originally by: Nish'a why is any type of impact on the economy bad? imo battleships are already way to easy to come by ... if I think of beta, I preferred it the harder way ... Beta?? Mate, you are a FEW years late. The game has evolved since then. :P Nowadays you could considder Carriers to be the way Battleships were in the old days. Expencive semi-overpowered toys for the old and wealthy. or maybe that is the sore spot? You're sad that your BS is no longer the pwnmobile it used to be, instapoping people at the gates? Just a guess. no offence intended. iDrone
Amy Tr'ader	Posted - 2007.06.21 09:06:00 - [113] Why does this topic get brought up all the time like this?! "OMFG I LEFTORZ THE G4M3 FOR A YEAR AND OMGWTF WARP TO ZERO?!?!!?!111" you evidently weren't here when the servers were grinding to a halt because of thousands of people copying bookmarks; you weren't here for the hundreds of threads trying to figure out the best way to continue. I wish the mods would lock topics like these and tell you to use the search button.
Nicole KholdStare Gallente QUANT Corp. Southern Connection	Posted - 2007.06.21 09:13:00 - [114] argh not only is it not enough that we there is a whine for every single item listed in the current patch notes, now people actually dig up old stuff to whine about as well. Amazing...nerf module stacking penality!!!
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.21 09:20:00 - [115] Warp to 0 is better than the old system. However I would have preferred if they made it skillbased and per region. Basically, introduce skills like "gate knowledge Catch" and for every level in that skill, your warp distance to a gate in the Catch region would be reduced by 3km. That way you would have promoted people sticking to a number of regions and not roaming in an hour all across the map. ------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
FarScape III	Posted - 2007.06.21 09:22:00 - [116] Who in their right minds made everone slow boat to everything in the game for no realistic reason The only reason they did it is to atificialy get people to PvP, the game is better now and we do not need it, thank goodness. A Minmater City... Cool! My Skills
beor oranes Caldari Furious Angels Requiem-Aeternam	Posted - 2007.06.21 09:34:00 - [117] Originally by: Nish'a Am I the only person who doesnt like this change? So far it seems like everyone is against my opinion. Pretty much. Couldn't be bothered to read the rest of the thread because basically its be flogged to death, let the horse rest! ------------------------------------------------ Either pick a dry year when fighting wars or civilize the moronic races and have no wars at all!
Helganstandt InNova Tech Inc	Posted - 2007.06.21 09:38:00 - [118] Edited by: Helganstandt on 21/06/2007 09:39:21 Only simple answer I got for yah is: Since the introduction of Interdictors, warp to 0 doesn't matter in 0.0 Since the introduction of warp to 0, low sec became safer than 0.0, just like it should be. Warp to 0 balances out the game. Oveur may have been against it at one time, but he's either changed his mind or was overuled. Lots of things change in EVE. You gotta learn to accept it man, most of the time it's for the best, and I would venture to say 99% of EVE players appreciate warp to 0. It's not in CCP's best interest to get rid of it, so I'd say move on. Edit: Also, you really haven't given a good reason to bring back warp to 0, other than "I don't like it". What, you want to hunt pirates? That's all you have? Give us a good reason to get rid of warp to 0. If you can't think of at least one that makes some iota of sense and can't be countered, maybe I'd agree with you.
Rangkai	Posted - 2007.06.21 09:57:00 - [119] No one is forcing anyone to warp to zero You can still warp to 15.. even warp to 100! Eve is about freedom..... do what you want!
Erim Solfara Amarr House of Solfara	Posted - 2007.06.21 10:11:00 - [120] I'm with you Nish'a I'd like to point out to you lot that 'faster travel' isn't neccessarily a good thing, the idea of having a 15km run to a gate restricted fleet and large ship travel times, it made the whole world bigger, made people stay and defend their own regions, a mass exodus or invasion was alot more of a feat to organise, and that's how it should be. A battleship raiding party shouldn't be able to hope across a region or 2, engage, and run away home in an afternoon. It just negates the whole concept of space as being this really REALLY big thing. A new tool in the fight for balance?
Umbriele Gallente Natural Inventions	Posted - 2007.06.21 10:40:00 - [121] Originally by: Nish'a Am I the only person who doesnt like this change? So far it seems like everyone is against my opinion. Yes.
Pinpisa Jormao	Posted - 2007.06.21 10:49:00 - [122] Edited by: Pinpisa Jormao on 21/06/2007 10:49:09 Rapier + stiletto with 2 sensor boosters + smartbombing BS for frig poppage. So you need a bit of team work or multiboxing but you should catch pretty much anything except a vaga or travel fitted ship. Also remote sensor boosters + rigs can be useful if you don't have inty. If you can't, well you're just too slow.
Pinpisa Jormao	Posted - 2007.06.21 10:53:00 - [123] One other thing, I would certainly not mind if the autopilot atleast utilized the mwd/ab if installed if it can't be made to WTZ. Rumour is though that a macro autopilot does WTZ so maybe CCP should add that to regular players too to even the field.
Milton Keynes	Posted - 2007.06.21 10:54:00 - [124] OMFG - Page 5 already! Get a clue already people -> DON'T FEED THE TROLLS
Araxmas The Blue Dagger Mercenery Agency	Posted - 2007.06.21 11:07:00 - [125] De Ja vu anywho I have been ganked while using wtz TO a gate. They smartbombed my inty and frankly all you need to do is just camp the other side of the gate..not to mention that pretty much EVERYONE has insta bookmarks anyway, only people that didn't were new people which tbh is not really a good gatecamping kill now is it. -------- Robbie Rotten left me
Pinpisa Jormao	Posted - 2007.06.21 11:16:00 - [126] Edited by: Pinpisa Jormao on 21/06/2007 11:15:51 Here's how we get rid of gates without breaking the game and allow more freedom: 1. Remove all gates 2. Create new Capital ship module that allows creation of a warp tunnel singularity "beacon" that feeds of the star. Attempt to create another one will destabilize itself and disappear. 3. All ships have limited warp/jump range so they must travel between stars nearby instead of long distances without risk. 4. Activation of the warp tunnel will take longer the bigger mass your ship is. 5. Tunnels create subspace vortex that can be detected -> ships warping between stars are visible on the map. 4. Camp the beacon/singularity point or intercept ships by looking at map and profit Now I'm sorry I must go to create this EVE killer game, not like that was the only good idea I have for it.
Milton Keynes Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.06.21 11:23:00 - [127] Originally by: Pinpisa Jormao Edited by: Pinpisa Jormao on 21/06/2007 11:16:38 Here's how we get rid of gates without breaking the game and allow more freedom: ...Stuff.. Now I'm sorry I must go to create this EVE killer game, not like that was the only good idea I have for it. That actually sounds VERY cool and is how I would have preferred EvE to have developed rather than having all these stupid gates. I wonder if people realise that warping to/from and jumping through gates takes up a SIGNIFICANT fraction of their time ingame? Not to mention that all combat becomes gate based (especially in 0.0) - unless you are lucky enough to probe out someone's safespot. So much for epic battles BETWEEN the planets... Ah well.EvE is what it is and I still love playing it. But please do make a game that works as you say - it would be a dream come true!
Terminus adacai Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.21 11:29:00 - [128] Only folks that hated this change were pirates. seems to be a lot fewer of em too... Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance.
barvo 7th Space Cavalry Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2007.06.21 12:38:00 - [129] Originally by: Erim Solfara I'd like to point out to you lot that 'faster travel' isn't neccessarily a good thing, the idea of having a 15km run to a gate restricted fleet and large ship travel times, it made the whole world bigger, made people stay and defend their own regions, a mass exodus or invasion was alot more of a feat to organise, and that's how it should be. A battleship raiding party shouldn't be able to hope across a region or 2, engage, and run away home in an afternoon. It just negates the whole concept of space as being this really REALLY big thing. But the point is, if the FC had a set of instas, the whole fleet could do this anyway, with gang-warp. We seem to have this whole rose-tinted idea of what life was before WTZ. Granted I'm only 14 months or some into the game, but I remember pre-WTZ and believe me, the first thing any decent corporation would do once a new recruit was trusted would be to get them to upload all the corp bookmarks. Originally by: Anehra 1) It was a hell of a lot less bubblcamps back then. If you wanted to defend 0.0 you had intel channels and could usually catch them between gates. -a) thus less people wasting valuable game time doing nothing. -b) thus roaming gang and small gang pvp being alot more viable. -c) thus alot better accibility to the game for casual gamers. Interesting. I think you're forgetting the fact that you caught them mainly because you had bookmarks for "your" regions and they didn't, hence they were slowboating and you weren't. But that raises an interesting point. Flame away, but: Given the changes to sovereignty, what if having sovereignty over a region/constellation/system allowed you to WTZ to any of the warpable objects in that system, but not having sovereignty didn't? I'm not saying I particularly like the idea, just throwing it out there.
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.06.21 12:42:00 - [130] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Nish'a the issue was bookmarks ??? bms being removed is fine... but what exactly has that to do with warp to zero, for EVERY system, station gate .... this is ******** imo so why did they introduce warp to zero if oveur was so against it, or do I remember something wrong here? Nish'a Everyone already had warp-to-zero. It was called 30,000 instaBMs i still have mine, and if i ever get bored i fly to Jita and sit on a gate copying them repeatedly.
Agent Li	Posted - 2007.06.21 12:45:00 - [131] Originally by: Elmicker Its given roaming gangs the ability to dodge bubbles just about anywhere (short of large/dictor), and given roaming gangs the ability to cross huge swathes of space without being restricted by their ships' speeds or their sets of bookmarks. The only place its killed is lowsec, which no one used anyway. It just put the camp on the other side of the gate. That, and you'll need a crew to gank someone coming through - no solo snipers anymore. ------------------ "Don't be afraid to take advantage of your enemy's weaknesses. Becasuse winning is everything after all."
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 12:54:00 - [132] Originally by: barvo Given the changes to sovereignty, what if having sovereignty over a region/constellation/system allowed you to WTZ to any of the warpable objects in that system, but not having sovereignty didn't? Quote: nice thoughts, quite interesting idea!
Supreme Biovizier	Posted - 2007.06.21 13:02:00 - [133] Originally by: Nish'a However: warp to zero 2005 called. They want their flamebait back.
Fenren	Posted - 2007.06.21 13:18:00 - [134] Originally by: petergriffen You're beginning to remind me of all of the old Beta CS players who refuse to play 1.6/source because the changes didn't suit the way they wanted to play... HAHA!! thats me! or at least almoust me... I quit playing when they released beta 4... but at least i didnt whine about it on the forums a year after the release Originally by: CCP Ginger Hello! Ships have crews, most pod controlled frigates do not, above that they have crews of varying sizes. Hope that helps.
Billy Sastard Amarr Life. Universe. Everything. Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.21 13:47:00 - [135] Edited by: Billy Sastard on 21/06/2007 13:47:22 Personally, I think that CCP's decision to remplace instant BM's with WTZ stemmed from the huge number of people that threatened to quit if instant BM's were removed and nothing put in to replace it. It is the almighty bottom line which drives companys. The removal of the billions of lag inducing instant bookmarks was something that needed to be done, and to avoid losing subscriptions, CCP made a decision that kept the majority of players happy. From the initial anouncement that WTZ was staying in game, the number of people who did not like it was greatly outnumbered by the people who did. CCP does not make loads of cash by making decisions that make the minority happy while alienating the majority, if they are going to alienate anyone, it will be the minority, so that they lose less paying customers when the people who dont like the change leave. I hope that made sense... I makes sense to me. Personally I don't really mind WTZ, as it really just emulates the way I was playing before with the use of instant BM's, so no big change there. P.S. - BTW, WTZ was added in november of last year with Revelations I, that is about 7 months ago, not 18 -=^=-
Mnengli Noiliffe	Posted - 2007.06.21 14:01:00 - [136] the OP seems to be asking why WTZ was implemented instead of "remove gate bookmarks and forbid their creation". well I'll try to explain that instead of pointing the obvious 100th time. you see this game is made for players who play it. sure ideologically it's better to just remove and forbid. however at the time this was done, most players in eve (except for very new players) had all the "insta bookmarks" they needed, either making them themselves or buying through escrow packages. Even the first issue of official EVE E-ON magazine had entire article about how to create instas. So you see, as the game evolves certain things that wasn't "fixed" in the right time (in this case - right after a few clever people created some first instas, which I guess have happened in first few days after game release), become new game features. You can't just nerf them, this would screw too much players. Sure there was a number of protesters, but the MAJORITY of player base got very very used for instas, both carebears and pvpers. This means basically that instas have became the inherent part of the game. so by that time, CCP had only one option to get rid of BM copy induced lag - to introduce WTZ. Other solution would be either too late in the existing situation or too complex.
Mr Cleann	Posted - 2007.06.21 14:14:00 - [137] I think the warp to zero idea came shortly after someone came out with the anti warp generators that are capable of completly encompassing a stargate out to 45 km. To help ballance things out a little. I think someone thought that the anti-warp generators were a bit one sided. lol.
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:15:00 - [138] Originally by: Billy Sastard Personally, I think that CCP's decision to remplace instant BM's with WTZ stemmed from the huge number of people that threatened to quit if instant BM's were removed and nothing put in to replace it. It is the almighty bottom line which drives companys. The removal of the billions of lag inducing instant bookmarks was something that needed to be done, and to avoid losing subscriptions, CCP made a decision that kept the majority of players happy. From the initial anouncement that WTZ was staying in game, the number of people who did not like it was greatly outnumbered by the people who did. CCP does not make loads of cash by making decisions that make the minority happy while alienating the majority, if they are going to alienate anyone, it will be the minority, so that they lose less paying customers when the people who dont like the change leave. well this sounds like the only logical reason so far ... so this is the playerbases fault ... great so we can blame ourselve cuz we cant adapt ... shame on us?
Microsoft Sam Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:22:00 - [139] to be honest im glad the wtz is here and the instas are gone. i accumulated a stash of over 30000 instas on 2 characters.. a total of 60000 instas.. it maybe took me 4 or 5 seconds to load up my right click menu and probably double that to jump. now i load up in or around a second and my right click menu has no instas. tbh the change was a good one for my purposes, if i was a pirate i would probably have been against it but unlike most people i would have adapted.
qilin S.A.S Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:25:00 - [140] Edited by: qilin on 21/06/2007 16:24:27 i am so used to warp to zero i actually had totally forgotten you didnt used to be able to do it. i think its a good thing, its been accepted into the community and game. There was alot of *****ing and moaning about it when it came in but its all worked out fine. no more lag on making bms. Alot of people had instas for everywhere anyway so its not really made a whole lot of differance. you have to catch people on the warp out now, which really isnt an issue, ppl still fight, kill, gank, pirate. its put all the bm sellers and bm scammers out of buisness. basically all good. - -
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.21 16:42:00 - [141] Originally by: qilin Edited by: qilin on 21/06/2007 16:24:27 i am so used to warp to zero i actually had totally forgotten you didnt used to be able to do it. i think its a good thing, its been accepted into the community and game. There was alot of *****ing and moaning about it when it came in but its all worked out fine. no more lag on making bms. Alot of people had instas for everywhere anyway so its not really made a whole lot of differance. you have to catch people on the warp out now, which really isnt an issue, ppl still fight, kill, gank, pirate. its put all the bm sellers and bm scammers out of buisness. basically all good. this is the same old agrument over and over again ... what about tactic it has beend said soo often ... people can tell you tales of new things which would make EVE combat better without instas or wtz ... it is not like i want instas back... but I neither want wtz wt 15 or wt 10 would just be fine, maybe some module ... scanning for a few secs before you iniate warp for an accuaray warp or anything similar would have worked just fine but WTZ is just god dam.n wrong in my book
Tao Han Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2007.06.21 17:05:00 - [142] WTZ was introduced for the simple reason that bookmarks where putting a strain on the server. 100's of people copying thousands of bookmarks constantly is not all that great on performance. The issue was to find a good compromise on how to handle the removal of the majority of the bookmarks and thus WTZ was introduced, but note that it doesnt work if you are AFK. So in reality millions of BM's where removed making it easier on server performance and everyone was given "gate instas". Now this was changed along time ago so trying to start anything now is pointless, yes ppl kicked and screamed back then also but they eventually adapted or moved on. This has all been explained since page one in this thread and if you dont "get it" (I think you do) then this might be the best trolling attempt ever
dirtfreak	Posted - 2007.06.21 17:08:00 - [143] Originally by: Dark Shikari Everyone already had warp-to-zero. It was called 30,000 instaBMs I made a fortune selling those...heh
Krugerrand 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.06.21 17:28:00 - [144] Wasn't for the change at first but within a cple days was glad of it. No more pesky instaBookmarks or having to copy them. People with WTZ don't always land in docking range and die. Dictors/bubbles do a grand job. I don't want to spend half my evening traveling to a gate in a slow ass ship because my navigation computer is crap, am slowed down the other side by how long it takes me to get into warp. No WTZ AP which means you have to sit at the computer to use WTZ, like with bookmarks. If CCP removed the ability to WTZ completely you would see less combat as a whole fleet wise + no doubt a lot of people consider leaving the game. Travel is not fun, don't make it longer.
Maxpie Cross Roads	Posted - 2007.06.21 17:31:00 - [145] It removed the most boring, worthless part of the game at the expense of some gate gankers who don't want to adapt. Personally I think it's the best improvement ever introduced. I"m not fond of sitting watching my ship crawl to a station, gate, belt or whatever. I have limited time to play, I want to play during that time. He put... creatures... in our bodies... to control our minds. He made us... say lies... do things.
fluffybunney	Posted - 2007.06.21 17:53:00 - [146] constantly bumping the topic with a one or two sentence response is not very good trolling, and you're not even subtly attempting to flame others. I give you a 2/10 for persistance but your technique needs a lot of work.
DeODokktor Caldari Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium	Posted - 2007.06.21 18:29:00 - [147] Originally by: Nish'a I left the game over 1 year ago and came back to see all that new stuff which I overall seem to like. However: warp to zero who in their right mind introduced that? I could bet that Oveur swore that this would never happen? Why has he changed his mind? Im lost, for me this is a gamebreaker. God I cant belive that ... Sounds like you need to go away for another year.
tiewan	Posted - 2007.06.21 18:56:00 - [148] Originally by: Erim Solfara I'm with you Nish'a I'd like to point out to you lot that 'faster travel' isn't neccessarily a good thing, the idea of having a 15km run to a gate restricted fleet and large ship travel times, it made the whole world bigger, made people stay and defend their own regions, a mass exodus or invasion was alot more of a feat to organise, and that's how it should be. A battleship raiding party shouldn't be able to hope across a region or 2, engage, and run away home in an afternoon. It just negates the whole concept of space as being this really REALLY big thing. True.. but if you don't want fleet movements to be so easy.. they would have to remove insta's
Neuromandis Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.21 21:33:00 - [149] Edited by: Neuromandis on 21/06/2007 21:33:53 Nish'a, I have a question for you (three actually) a) Did you live in 0.0? If so, *did you* travel with instas?** If you didn't , I'm all with you, you have balls, and you have the RIGHT to say wtz sucks. IF you did, STFU cause you're just a hypocrite who wanted to have an advantage at the expense of the rest of the playerbase Yes the playerbase: Both your week-old victims that didn't have the chance or the money to get/buy bookmarks, and the rest of eve that had to suffer from lag, crashes and node-deaths so you could enjoy your advantage The only difference now is that everyone does what you did anyway. b) Or did you live in lowsec? If so, why don't you try moving around 0.0 as well a bit, but only warping to 15km. If you survive a single trip somewhere dangerous, I;m all with you as well. But since you won't, at least not with anything but an interceptor/nanoship, you need to understand that simply deleting the instas was NOT an option. It would very very much penalize (if not kill) 0.0, and that is a much bigger problem than inconveniencing the FEW lowsec pirates. Being dangerous is one thing. Suicidal is another. So in any case, instas were NEEDED. And since they had to go, something different had to be implemented. Thus came WTZ, long live WTZ, that removed the stupid useless brainless bookmark copying. c) Or did you live in empire, in which case get off our back and play the game? I am betting my money on (b) to be honest, that you're mainly a lowsec character, because you don't sound like a hypocrite (which you would be if it was (a)), or a carebear (which you would be if the answer to (c) was yes). In which case, think of all of us that live in 0.0 and CANNOT travel without either instas OR WTZ, and the change has been a blessing by removing a stupid LAG-sink that were the old instas.
Vodka Neat Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.06.21 22:01:00 - [150] I wonder if Nish'a was a bookmark seller... Anyhow I love it one less time waster is always good. Why are you still reading? Its over. Continue to the next post.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.21 22:06:00 - [151] Originally by: Nish'a Am I the only person who doesnt like this change? So far it seems like everyone is against my opinion. I'm very much against this change too. However it's an argument I've lost. I _still_ think EVE would be better with: No 'insta bookmarks' Everyone warping to 15km shrug it's been argued back and forth. If they changed it now, the level of whining would be phenomenal.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.21 22:19:00 - [152] Originally by: Neuromandis a) Did you live in 0.0? If so, *did you* travel with instas?** If you didn't , I'm all with you, you have balls, and you have the RIGHT to say wtz sucks. IF you did, STFU cause you're just a hypocrite who wanted to have an advantage at the expense of the rest of the playerbase Yes the playerbase: Both your week-old victims that didn't have the chance or the money to get/buy bookmarks, and the rest of eve that had to suffer from lag, crashes and node-deaths so you could enjoy your advantage The only difference now is that everyone does what you did anyway. b) Or did you live in lowsec? If so, why don't you try moving around 0.0 as well a bit, but only warping to 15km. If you survive a single trip somewhere dangerous, I;m all with you as well. But since you won't, at least not with anything but an interceptor/nanoship, you need to understand that simply deleting the instas was NOT an option. It would very very much penalize (if not kill) 0.0, and that is a much bigger problem than inconveniencing the FEW lowsec pirates. Being dangerous is one thing. Suicidal is another. So in any case, instas were NEEDED. And since they had to go, something different had to be implemented. Thus came WTZ, long live WTZ, that removed the stupid useless brainless bookmark copying. c) Or did you live in empire, in which case get off our back and play the game? I am betting my money on (b) to be honest, that you're mainly a lowsec character, because you don't sound like a hypocrite (which you would be if it was (a)), or a carebear (which you would be if the answer to (c) was yes). In which case, think of all of us that live in 0.0 and CANNOT travel without either instas OR WTZ, and the change has been a blessing by removing a stupid LAG-sink that were the old instas. Don't be assnine. It's entirely possible to dislike using instas, and yet at the same time be forced into using them, because _everyone_ else is, and the level of competitive advantage you lose, is just way too much. If _everyone_ was stuck with warp to 15, then that would change how EVE gameplay would work. Personally, I feel this would be for the better. And yes, I do have direct experience. I used to run a 5 tower POS chain, 15 jumps into 0.0. And for quite a few months, I didn't use instas, because I didn't like them. It was only the fact that I was having people in fully expanded iterons insta past my travel fitted badger II, and thus actively screwing my profit margin, that I changed my mind and started using them. That was quite a few hauler runs each week. In a travel fitted Badger II, so moving about 5k cargo a time. It was effort, because of the multiple runs, but ... well, you lose a few ships, but mostly it's not all that big a deal. 'instas' were only mandatory because everyone had them. If _everyone_ had to warp to 15, you can bet you'd see a hell of a lot less roaming battleship gangs, simply because they were so much slower. Personally, don't think that would have been a bad thing. I also dislike how 'hub centric' warp to zero has made markets. shrug this is an argument I've lost, but I remain of the opinon that warp to 15 _forced on everyone_ would make EVE a better game.
Presidente Gallente Pirate Hunters Inc	Posted - 2007.06.21 22:22:00 - [153] Originally by: Nish'a Am I the only person who doesnt like this change? So far it seems like everyone is against my opinion. Look ... this was extreme discussed under heavy whining a long time ago. Warp to 0 has some great advantages. More pilots take the risk to enter low-sec but it is not the ultimative camp killer. Why not playing for a while first, check out how PvPer or camps deal with it and figure out that Warp to 0 just caused different tactics. Pres G +++ JOIN PAP +++
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.21 22:27:00 - [154] Originally by: Ecchus Originally by: Nish'a no one wants slower travel ... that argument I dont understand ... with a mwd you are pretty fast arent you? Fit an MWD on a freighter. I dare you. Freighters arrived after pretty much everyone was already using instas. IMO it was balanced with that in mind.
Neuromandis Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.21 23:53:00 - [155] Edited by: Neuromandis on 21/06/2007 23:52:38 Originally by: James Lyrus It's entirely possible to dislike using instas, and yet at the same time be forced into using them, because _everyone_ else is, and the level of competitive advantage you lose, is just way too much. Fair enough. But then you go back to where we started. Originally by: James Lyrus If _everyone_ was stuck with warp to 15, then that would change how EVE gameplay would work. Personally, I feel this would be for the better. Quite sure it would change the way EVE would work. I feel it would be for the worse. YMMV. Logistics nightmares were never my favorite tbh.
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.22 14:53:00 - [156] instas and now warp to zero imo introduced way more meta gaming ... it's all about agression timer, fitting 8 smartbombs, and who has the best agility! what about good old speed, its nearly totally irrelevant ... I want good old fights back not that meta gaming nonsense ...
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.22 14:57:00 - [157] Originally by: Neuromandis Edited by: Neuromandis on 21/06/2007 21:33:53 Nish'a, I have a question for you (three actually) a) Did you live in 0.0? If so, *did you* travel with instas?** If you didn't , I'm all with you, you have balls, and you have the RIGHT to say wtz sucks. IF you did, STFU cause you're just a hypocrite who wanted to have an advantage at the expense of the rest of the playerbase Yes the playerbase: Both your week-old victims that didn't have the chance or the money to get/buy bookmarks, and the rest of eve that had to suffer from lag, crashes and node-deaths so you could enjoy your advantage The only difference now is that everyone does what you did anyway. b) Or did you live in lowsec? If so, why don't you try moving around 0.0 as well a bit, but only warping to 15km. If you survive a single trip somewhere dangerous, I;m all with you as well. But since you won't, at least not with anything but an interceptor/nanoship, you need to understand that simply deleting the instas was NOT an option. It would very very much penalize (if not kill) 0.0, and that is a much bigger problem than inconveniencing the FEW lowsec pirates. Being dangerous is one thing. Suicidal is another. So in any case, instas were NEEDED. And since they had to go, something different had to be implemented. Thus came WTZ, long live WTZ, that removed the stupid useless brainless bookmark copying. c) Or did you live in empire, in which case get off our back and play the game? I am betting my money on (b) to be honest, that you're mainly a lowsec character, because you don't sound like a hypocrite (which you would be if it was (a)), or a carebear (which you would be if the answer to (c) was yes). In which case, think of all of us that live in 0.0 and CANNOT travel without either instas OR WTZ, and the change has been a blessing by removing a stupid LAG-sink that were the old instas. I lived in 0.0 and if I had more than 10 instas it was really much, honestly it is not that hard like everyone imagines it to be ... back in CFS space it was great up to fountain ... moving a small bs gang was ubber but slow ... if we wanted to be faster we used cruisers and frigs as in my opinion it should be ... wtz and instas introduced meta gaming which I honestly hate ...
Rashmika Clavain Gallente Revelation Space	Posted - 2007.06.22 14:58:00 - [158] It's not going to change, so I see two choices for you: 1: Deal with it 2: Continue to flog this dead horse
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.22 15:01:00 - [159] Originally by: Rashmika Clavain It's not going to change, so I see two choices for you: 1: Deal with it 2: Continue to flog this dead horse why are you so certain ... has it been said by a dev somewhere?
Billy Sastard Amarr Life. Universe. Everything. Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.22 15:03:00 - [160] I fear this will continue -=^=-
Andargor theWise Collateral Damage Unlimited Hammer Time.	Posted - 2007.06.22 15:04:00 - [161] Originally by: Nish'a Originally by: Rashmika Clavain It's not going to change, so I see two choices for you: 1: Deal with it 2: Continue to flog this dead horse why are you so certain ... has it been said by a dev somewhere? I have the distinct impression that you are stirring **** just because you don't like WTZ. The discussions here are a summary of dozens of threads and dev posts, in which you didn't participate. What gives you the right to waste our time with subject necro? Do a WTZ search in eve-search, read all of the posts, and be enlightened. Leave dead horses unbeaten. - Got grief? Revelations MySQL Database
The Snowman Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2007.06.22 15:37:00 - [162] Im the opposite... who in their right mind thought that warp tp 15km was a good idea?? I mean.... why ? to force travel to take longer? to force people to make bookmarks, to encourage gate camping tactics? The only shame is that the only reaons CCP changed it was to optimise their database, as opposed to thinking that it makes for better gameplay! It seems to me that its only since revelations that CCP now actually consider making improvments for gameplay.. like rev2 with the soverenty.. and then with exploration, LP Stores... I think the person who decided on warp to 15km no longer works for CCP, :D Either that or CCP has employed some clever people who do consider better gameplay changes. When walk-in stations are implemented... then its gona be a bobby dazzler :) :)
Nish'a Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.22 15:43:00 - [163] Originally by: The Snowman Im the opposite... who in their right mind thought that warp tp 15km was a good idea?? I mean.... why ? to force travel to take longer? to force people to make bookmarks, to encourage gate camping tactics? The only shame is that the only reaons CCP changed it was to optimise their database, as opposed to thinking that it makes for better gameplay! It seems to me that its only since revelations that CCP now actually consider making improvments for gameplay.. like rev2 with the soverenty.. and then with exploration, LP Stores... I think the person who decided on warp to 15km no longer works for CCP, :D Either that or CCP has employed some clever people who do consider better gameplay changes. When walk-in stations are implemented... then its gona be a bobby dazzler :) :) because at last it comes down to fighting in eve, no matter what... you cant argue that ... so why make fighting worse ???
Haas Tabris	Posted - 2007.06.22 17:39:00 - [164] Originally by: Nish'a so has oveur been fired? or why did he change his mind??? They changed it because EVE is a game and games are supposed to be fun. That's how you get people to play them. Not to mention pay for them. With warp to zero anybody can hop out 15 jumps on a roaming opp, go look for some targets and be back in an hour. Anyone can fly accross the universe in an hour or two. Warp to zero gives everyone more time to do the fun stuff without having to set up a huge collection of bookmarks. It's led to a LOT more PVP, more trade, more exploration, more time to run missions, you name it. And they made the change because a few of us players finally got that through CCP's thick skulls.
Vactet Immortalis Silens FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.22 17:47:00 - [165] ... Originally by: Nish'a so has oveur been fired? or why did he change his mind??? Ya one of the more important devs being fired..right. Seriously wtf.. Originally by: Nish'a Am I the only person who doesnt like this change? So far it seems like everyone is against my opinion. This change happened A LONG time ago. People adapted after the initial crys to stop the change. As someone said...camps are no longer on the side of the gate you warp to, they are on the side of the gate when you are aligning and getting into warp. 0.0 Wise its provided a few interesting changes. Chasing an enemy gang is less of an issue of who has better BM's and more who is better at tactics. All in all its a good change, and its a change that has been in effect for a while.. So yeh..stop beating the dead horse. Moderator..can we get a lock on this TOTALLY useless thread? Delivering the kick to the jaw of society to stop it from drooling on itself like the ignorant slop it is since 1984. Originally by: CCP Sharkbait we are screwed.
Liam Money Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.22 18:32:00 - [166] Originally by: Nish'a Am I the only person who doesnt like this change? So far it seems like everyone is against my opinion. Yes you are the only one.
Idami Raptor	Posted - 2007.06.22 18:35:00 - [167] Edited by: Idami Raptor on 22/06/2007 18:34:39 Hate to say it, but they're right. The sheer size of the database and the massive load on it caused by the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of insta bookmarks people had, not to mention the attendant access and transfer problems, meant CCP had to do something to reduce the load. That didn't leave many options. Delete the bookmarks and forbid/prevent their creation, delete the bookmarks and let people make new ones, or make the bookmarks unnecessary by integrating all their bonuses into the game. Simple fact is, the first two options would REALLY hack off a LARGE portion of the playerbase. Travel is the absolute least fun thing in ANY MMO, but Especially in Eve, even with warp to zero(I hate manual travel with a passion!). Fact is, adding extra travel time, making travel more difficult and dangerous, and forcing all your players to play that way, especially when they clearly already voiced their opinion of the situation by creating the very Instas that were the problem... Not very smart. Not listening to your customers, and trying to force them to do things the way you want them to be done generally results in them not being customers anymore. Look at the whole fight the recording industry tried to make against people downloading music. It never really worked, and even they seem to be finally realizing that trying to force people to take what you want to give them just doesn't work. The best possible result of any of the other solutions would be a lot of really angry players trying to find another way to get safe, instant travel. Which would probably create an equal or greater server load than the instas did. WTZ was the only solution that wouldn't either COMPLETELY destroy the game, or function as no more than a bandaid to delay it a bit. Seriously, tactics or not... if the players won't accept the solution, and quit the game in droves because of it, what's the point?
Illyria Ambri Caldari RennTech	Posted - 2007.06.22 18:59:00 - [168] Raise your hand if you are willing to go and recreate ALL your old BM's ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek
Hakar Kerarmor Gallente Arctic Productions	Posted - 2007.06.22 19:43:00 - [169] Originally by: Nish'a this is the same old agrument over and over again ... what about tactic it has beend said soo often ... people can tell you tales of new things which would make EVE combat better without instas or wtz ... And we've heard it all a million times over the last year(ish), and I don't see you adding anything new to the discussion.
Banedon Runestar Gallente Twin Power Enterprises LTD	Posted - 2007.06.22 20:46:00 - [170] Nish'a Get. Over. It. WTZ is here, the player base as a whole likes or at least can live with the change. Stop whining or put your stuff up sale and go back to WoW where you came from. You have now successfully beaten this horse into a paste even the French wouldn't eat. ----- Twin Power Enterprises
Interval The Triad Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.22 21:12:00 - [171] Originally by: Illyria Ambri Raise your hand if you are willing to go and recreate ALL your old BM's As a matter of fact, I thought that they were going to make a 50/80 km zone around the gate which you couldn't create BMS. I was starting plans to make my instas work by warping in at 100. CCP realized that there were people that would do this and relented on a very stupid game mechanic. Fights happen every day in eve and people have adapted.
Mydnyt	Posted - 2007.06.23 00:52:00 - [172] Quite honestly, I love WTZ... I feel a lot safer traveling around in low-sec space now, I reckon the only people who wouldn't like them are the gate campers that used to wait for people to fly in, so they could gank them. kinda hard to destroy someone when they're already halfway through the gate when they get there. I remember when the rats were complaining about people using insta's to travel.. said it made they're job too hard... Well i'm sorry sir, you seem to have mistaken me for someone who gives a #@!? ================================================ I swear it was there a minute ago.... 8 little reindeer pulling a sled..... then it disappeared right through that gate!
Mydnyt	Posted - 2007.06.23 00:52:00 - [173] Quite honestly, I love WTZ... I feel a lot safer traveling around in low-sec space now, I reckon the only people who wouldn't like them are the gate campers that used to wait for people to fly in, so they could gank them. kinda hard to destroy someone when they're already halfway through the gate when they get there. I remember when the rats were complaining about people using insta's to travel.. said it made they're job too hard... Well i'm sorry sir, you seem to have mistaken me for someone who gives a #@!? ================================================ I swear it was there a minute ago.... 8 little reindeer pulling a sled..... then it disappeared right through that gate!
Grim Vandal Caldari Burn Proof	Posted - 2007.06.24 13:10:00 - [174] I am an old time member and I actually have to say that eve definately got worse due to this change, well actually it got already worse at the point where people started to make instas for the whole universe. Easier and safer travel is fine and dandy however NOT if the game loses its appeal due to it. I am at the brick of leaving this game as well exactly due to this simply stupid game-mechanic. It led as the OP already mentioned to METAGAMING, which I deem a quite important fact which again doesnt do the game any good. And no, I am in NO way any type of ganker you gan imagine but rather the one who tries to pod them instead. This sadly has to be said all the time because the eve crowd doesnt get it that even the anti pirate folk doesnt like this change. I simply cant belive that any other tiny bit of thing is module and skill based but this isnt, even more so eg. scanners changed from totally unaffected by anything to a probe skill based system so why cant this happen with warp to zero, and wasnt there something mentioned about PRECISION WARP a short while ago?! This definately is not a dead topic imo, it seems like the mods feel alike cuz otherwise it would have been locked as some wished. I would like to especially hear some thoughts about the economical impact of such a change as well. Greetings Grim
Prolixj2 Gallente Veterans Of Liberation	Posted - 2007.06.24 14:20:00 - [175] All I see is a 6 page thread that pretty much stated it's purpose 6 pages ago, and that purpose was to make my eyes bleed

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