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LVL 4 Missions for Torp Raven Pilots

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Silent Marauder	Posted - 2007.06.25 16:46:00 - [1] There is another thread post at topic&threadid=373044 that says you should never use torps... well i strongly disagree. And heres why. Sure cruise are really good for lvl 4 missions and they dont cost you that much but I can kill all but the frigs faster with torps than with cruise and it doesnt cost all that much more. On the hardest of lvl 4 missions I will only expend about 500k worth of torps and thats more than made up for in bounties. Also with torps you can kill BC's and some cruisers with 2 salvos, some cruisers will take 3 salvos. And BS's crumble under the massive damage of the torps since they are large enough to take close to the full brunt of the explosion, assuming you are using the correct damage type that your mission rats are weakest against. My setup for Missions with torps is: Highs - 6 Arbelest Siege Launchers, 2 Heavy Ghoul Siphons Mids - XL shield booster 2, shield booster amp (use named if cpu is a problem), Heavy cap booster 2, 3x mission specific hardners (if only 2 damage types are being dealt put an invul in the 3rd spot). Lows - 2x RCU 2, CPU (some may need named CPU or CPU 2), BC 2, Damage Control 2 My T1 Raven also has 2 missile rigs and an EM shield rig, so you may not need the Arbelest siege launchers to get your cpu usage down low enough to use everything, less expensive ones may work just fine for you. But keep in mind the RoF of the Arblest are the best of the T1 seige launchers. The damage contol 2 is esential in my opinion cause if for some reason things go bad it gives you extra time to get out cause of the bonuses to your resists in armor and hull in addition to shields. Plus they only use 1 cap every 30 seconds so how can you go wrong with that. If you cant use the Heavy cap booster 2 use the Heavy Electrochemical one... the only difference between the two is that the T2 one can hold one extra cap booster 800 charge. If your skills dont give you enough powergrid or cpu or both with this setup to use everything take off one of the Heavy nos as that will free up alot of each. It just may mean that you may have to use the Cap booster. Some people like to leave out the heavy cap booster and put on an extra hardener. There is nothing wrong with doing that either but in my experience cap is life and without it you wont last long. There have been many occasions when i first started doing lvl 4 missions that without the heavy cap booster my ship would have been one of the wreckages left out there, and because i have had it, on all but one occasion i have been able to do the whole mission without warping out. Now if you like to use torps but think cruise are better for lvl 4 mission you can also try this mixed setup: Highs - 4x cruise launchers, 2x siege launchers, 2 heavy nos (use named ones of all of them to save on cpu) Mids - same as above Lows - same as above but can possibly replace the cpu 2 with a another BC 2 or PDU 2 depending on skills. Now if you cant use the T2 varients that i have listed feel free to use the T1 in place of all but the RCU 2's those are critical in giving you enough powergrid to run all your stuff in the full torp setup. Remember to experiment to find what works best for you with your skills... some people may be able to run all T2 equipment with others can only use T1 with a few named parts. just remember to keep your head on and watch your cap and shields. And only turn on your shield booster at 30% shields cause it will give you the highest amount of boost at that time. I run mine for 2-3 cycles once it gets down to 30% (that usually gets it back up to 40-50% depending on how much damage your taking at the time), by doing this you will find that you use less cap and will have alot less trouble tanking the rats. Hope this helps anyone wanting to use torps in lvl 4 missions.
Fink Angel Caldari The Merry Men	Posted - 2007.06.25 17:04:00 - [2] Would you not be better off dropping one of the midslots (cap injector?) for a Target Painter? Should make a reasonable difference to cruisers, frig and BCs. Rely on light drones to help take out pesky assault frigs or interceptors.
Silent Marauder	Posted - 2007.06.25 17:20:00 - [3] You can use a target painter in place of the cap injector but in my experience it doesnt increase the damage by that much until the ships are in hull so its really not worth it in my opinion. Plus you are giving up your valuable life giving cap injector to do a small amount of damage more to the small ships when you can concetrate your fire on the cruises and larger. As far as drones goes, hey work really well for taking out the frigs and destroyers. I use a combo of drones that consists of 2 heavy, 2 medium and 1 light and it has worked really well for me... the only down side to using that is you dont have anymore incase one is destroyed. I used to use 7 medium drones and that worked really well also cause you had 2 replacements in your drone bay just incase.
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.25 17:26:00 - [4] Oh dear lord that's a horrible setup. 1) You should never need cap booster in missions. 2) You really, really, need 2 target painters to get the most from your torps. I recently moved to 0.0, guristas country, and started using torps. I shouldn't have listened to anyone when they said train for t2 cruise, I would have been far better using t2 torps. 6x Arbie Torps 1x DCU 1x Something 1x XLSB 2x Hardener 1x Invul 2x TP 3x BCU 1x DC/PDU 1x CPU No rigs as yet, but 3x CCC would work perfectly. It doesn't have that much of a tank, but it doesn't need to for 0.0 ratting, and what is there is more than enough to take on a triple 1.8mil spawn (that's the best I've got so far, so don't know about harder ones). BCs die in 2 volleys. Most cruisers die in 2 volleys. Destroyers die in 1 volley. Frigates are left to the drones, but if they are MWDing to me and they are TPed, 2 (yes, two) torps is usually enough. Battleships take slightly longer, and the TPs aren't that useful against them, but still. 10 minutes at most and I can kill a triple 1.8 spawn. As I said, this is for 0.0 ratting, and may need tweaking for a better tank in lvl 4s, but with the damage output for anything destroyer - battlecruiser sized, chances are you'll kill everything quick enough that you won't need that much more of a tank.
Silent Marauder	Posted - 2007.06.25 17:41:00 - [5] J'Mkarr your setup is good but its a ratting setup... my 0.0 raven ratting setup that i use in syndicate is virtually the same except I use only one TP and then a sensor booster. You dont need a cap injector for ratting cause you dont have near the volume of ships aggro'ed on you. So therefore you can give up a lot of your tank for extra damage dealing. A triple BS spawn is nothing compared to having 5 BS's, 5 BC's, 10 cruisers plus destroyers and frigs all aggro'ed on you at the same time in a mission. But you do have a really good setup for 0.0 ratting.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.06.25 17:51:00 - [6] Originally by: Silent Marauder stuff While you are right that torps beat cruise at lvl4s, your setup is pretty bad and will actually be beaten by better set up cruise Ravens. For one, 3 BCUs are mandatory for any efficient lvl4 mission ship. And if you don't care for efficiency, you should not use torps. Also a target painter IS mandatory, and it DOES increase the damage THAT much against any target smaller than a BS and even against some of the BS (lotta Blood, Sansha and Angel BS have less than 400m sig radius). I did some math once and the gist was that a torp raven without painters is beaten by a cruise Raven on most lvl4s, with one painter it beats cruise on most lvl4s, and with two painters it beats cruise on any lvl4 that has less than 40 cruisers for each BS (which is more or less all of them). And really, to get the most out of torps you need a CNR and a gist XL booster. 7 torps and a painter one-volley all non-angel BCs and many a cruiser as well, which speeds up missions tremendously. Basically, torps are the efficiency tool for rich people, while cruise are the convenient tool for those only getting there. Thank you SkyFlyer! There is no 'n' in tur
Silent Marauder	Posted - 2007.06.25 18:25:00 - [7] Leandro, like I had said at first it all depends on your skills at what will work best for everyone... right now with my skills being not all that good i have to rely on a really good tank and cant afford to give up much of that for damage cause my resists are still pretty low and so are my missile skills. I am trained in Amarr ships and thus have armor tanking skills and energy weapons so my shield skills and missile skills still need alot of work. I do greatly agree that using a CNR with torps and TP would probably be the best way to go to do lvl 4's faster but alot of people cant afford the 700+ million isk for one. As far as 3 BCU's being "manditory" even my buddy with 3 years experience in eve says thats not true, but did suggest using 2 "if" at all possible. Im not saying 3 would be bad, but its not manditory. I do have a really strong setup for lvl 4 missions, and it works really well for what my skill level is. And since I solo lvl 4's alot and have never lost a raven and have only on one occasion had to warp out for repair you cant say its a "bad" setup either. As a side note i have never done the math or testing with anything other than Serpentis on damage so im gonna have to trust you when you say that every other faction is as you say... and if that is indeed the case that they have a smaller sig radius than the TP would definatley be helpfull. Again my setups are something to try and work off of... they may work for you and they may not every pilot is different with what skills they have and how well trained those skills are. I am by no means saying that my setups are perfect or the best ones for every situation but they do work really well for me and probably will for others but not everyone. I still stick to my saying of Cap is life and without it no ship is gonna last... so just keep that in mind when you are setting up your ships for missions no matter what type or race of ship you are flying.
kill0rbunny Alpha-Hirogen Phoenix Allianz	Posted - 2007.06.25 20:16:00 - [8] I am using 6 Arby Siege, 2 Small Guns XL Sb II, SB Amp II, 2 Hardeners II, 2 CPR II 3 Cap Flux Coil II, 2 BCS II 3 Cap Recharge Rigs It permaruns the XL Sb II and tanks even the hardest missions when the correct hardeners are fit. I could use a target painter, put then the permatank would be very hard to sustain. After all the cruisers pop pretty easy with Med Drones II, so who cares. I pew therefore I am.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.06.25 20:29:00 - [9] Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban Oh dear lord that's a horrible setup. 1) You should never need cap booster in missions. 2) You really, really, need 2 target painters to get the most from your torps. Well I have seen worse. Anyway - it is true that you do not actually need cap injector however cap injector setups are quite viable, especially if you run those missions fast enough anyway to not bother looting (it's better to do that in separate ship anyway in lev 4). I'm myself running missions with 2 CNR's with cap injectors on both (1x cruise 1x torps). It let's you pull off things with just t2 modules what would need faction tank otherwise. About painters. Yeah - well ok. You dont actually need them (as like unable to use torps without) but they do make you considerably more effective, especially if you have sig focusing lev 4 or 5 also trained (lev 4 is quite adequate). I would say however that if you manage to squeeze one in then 1 painter is quite enough. 6x siege (arbalest or domination) 2x Auto targeter I (more targets) 1x XL T2 booster, 3x T2 hardener 1x heavy cap injector 1x PAWNAGE painter 3x BCU II 1x beta RCU 1x beta PDU 3x CCC rigs, T2 drones A bit short on CPU for T2 sieges but domination is approx as good as T2 siege with max skills. T2 torps are not worth using in missions anyway (faction is better). As far as BCU's go well - if you fit under 2 you are hurting yourself but ofc it's doable - just slower than with them.
Toria Nynys Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.25 21:39:00 - [10] My 2 cents: OP, I'm glad that setup works for you, but it's giving me nightmares. 1 BCU is somewhere around a 20% DPS haircut compared to 3. In other words, more difference than normal Raven vs. CNR. Fitting so many modules just to squeeze on torps and using torp-specific rigs makes your tank a bit suspect. Can you handle every L4 with that tank without warping? I am a fan of Cruise Ravens. They are easy to fit with 3 BCUs, can pack a mean tank but also benefit from a target painter if you're feeling frisky. Cruises have a higher rate of fire, take less time to reach the target, and guided missile precision & navigation prediction both affect cruises and not torps. Plus, I'm pretty sure FoF torpedos don't exist. And as a clincher, I can start firing cruises from further away. MUCH further away. Since I get to start doing damage earlier the overall mission time goes down. The only time I'd refit for torps is missions where I know 50%+ of the targets will be battleships, close up dogfights and no damping. For ratting and situations where range is easily managed and a tank is not as important, yeah, go nuts with torps. For most missions cruises just seem to work So Much Better.

Silent Marauder	Posted - 2007.06.25 22:05:00 - [11] Carniflex, the auto targeter is a really good idea that I never thought of and will have to try. Toria, I see you also think that 3 BCU's is a must as well... to clarify I use one with 2 missile damage rigs so I guess its like having 3 but it frees up 2 of my lows for other things. As far as the RoF of cruise vs torps goes, with my skills the Arbelest siege launchers have a 10.4 sec RoF which is really good and very compairable to cruise launchers. As far as the cruise get to the target faster... yes thats true BUT it takes 2 defender missiles to take out one torp and I have never had 2 defender missiles hit the same torp when they are stagered in flight. So all my torps always make it to the target, as where with cruise you are most likely gonna lose at least one if not 2 or more (depending on how many BS's you are up against) to defender missiles cause they only take one to be taken out, and that hurts your dps just as bad if not more (depending on how many you lose in flight) as not having the extra BCU's or a TP for your torp. And yes I have been able to do every lvl 4 mission thus far with that setup without warping out. So as bad as some of you may think this setup is, it works very well for me.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.06.25 22:34:00 - [12] Originally by: Silent Marauder As far as 3 BCU's being "manditory" even my buddy with 3 years experience in eve says thats not true There are tons of people with 3 years 'experience' in EVE who have absolutely zero clue about efficient mission running. And just because people think what they do is working great does not mean it actually does. Also, if you are really trained in Amarr ships, to be efficient you should be running Amarr missions in an Abaddon, that definitely is a lot faster than running them in a standard Raven. I even use my Abaddon over my CNR in most missions for Theology Council. Yet I am certain many grumpy old vets will still tell you that the Raven will be much better because despite having played EVE for ages they never really got a clue, and since they think they do good they never tried to get better. And whether a setup is bad or not is not determined by whether it can finish L4s, but by how fast they do it. Tbh you have to have a really crappy setup and/or a serious lack of skills (Both real skills and SP) if you actually fail many L4s. I can (and did when I was a greehorn) finish L4s in pretty damn bad setups too, without ever losing a ship or warping out much. But I was fully aware all the time how much room for improvement there was and never had illusions about doing terribly good. And I recommend that awareness to others too. It helps to get rich faster. Thank you SkyFlyer! There is no 'n' in tur
Kylar Renpurs	Posted - 2007.06.25 23:18:00 - [13] Depends if you're after "Get-rich-quick" fits. For me it's about AFK tanking while I fight. My fit is generally: HI: 3t2 siege launcher (some mish Javelins are useful for), 3 siege arbies mid: 3* rat-spec hardeners, TP, heavy cap booster, best named XL booster low: 4T2 pds, 1bcu drones: 5*t2 vespas (apologies for grammar, caps, in a rush) Improve Market Competition!
Nyabi Caldari Ionic Defender	Posted - 2007.06.25 23:25:00 - [14] Originally by: Leandro Salazar There are tons of people with 3 years 'experience' in EVE who have absolutely zero clue about efficient mission running. And just because people think what they do is working great does not mean it actually does. Quoted for amazing truth, my bud was a pvper for most of his 3 years (on and off, thanks to WoW), he recently joined us in missioning and as none of us have run missions we are all learning. Sure we can tear apart l4's, but not as fast as we'd like!
Silent Marauder	Posted - 2007.06.26 00:25:00 - [15] I used to use an Abaddon and its an awsome ship for missions... but i found that i liked the raven better cause it was less SP intensive for missions, and im not doing missions for a get-rich-quick thing, i do them cause they are for the most part challenging. And I dont know what you would consider doing a mission fast as, but it takes me about 2 hours to do a mission like Serpentis Extravaganza and thats including going back to salvage and pick up loot, and I think thats good cause when I started doing lvl 4 missions it took me about 3 hours just to do the mission. Also my friend has 3 years experience in missions and ratting in eve... he didnt till about 3 months ago start PVP'ing on a real hardcore basis... and even now he still does lvl 4's in 0.0 space when he is not busy with his POS's. I trust he know what he's talking about since last time i saw him do a lvl 4 in a crusader, and to me thats saying something.
Slayton Ford Vindicate and Deliverance ASGARDIAN EMPIRE	Posted - 2007.06.26 04:26:00 - [16] When talking about ravens, we need to remember there is a huge difference between whats needed for lvl4s vs whats needed for 0.0 1.8m BS spawns (which are not as common as on thinks, I see a lot more 3x 800k in -.75 then even 1.5s). For 0.0 ratting, I dont even use a XL booster as a t2 LSB works just fine w/ running a SBA, 2x Inv and 2x Hardners. --------------- This sig has been censored in fear of recieving the ban hammer...
The Manner	Posted - 2007.06.26 05:35:00 - [17] Edited by: The Manner on 26/06/2007 05:33:59 Originally by: Silent Marauder I trust he know what he's talking about since last time i saw him do a lvl 4 in a crusader, and to me thats saying something. why don;t you take his c.0.c.k out of yer ass and stop bsing
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.06.26 06:02:00 - [18] Originally by: The Manner Edited by: The Manner on 26/06/2007 05:33:59 Originally by: Silent Marauder I trust he know what he's talking about since last time i saw him do a lvl 4 in a crusader, and to me thats saying something. why don;t you take his c.0.c.k out of yer ass and stop bsing It's quite possible if you don't need heavy firepower. Hell you can tank tripe 1.8 mil BS spawns in 0.0 with just kestrel (as long as they are turret ships - sure you cant kill them but you can tank them I know from personal experience against blood raiders) Is it the most effective way ? Well ofc not but some people do it in inefficent ships every now and then to feel the challenge. Like AF, HAC or BC's. Takes fairly good understandings of mission mechanics also to know who webs and in what mission you can and in what you can not pull it off.
Orangemorphium	Posted - 2007.06.26 06:52:00 - [19] Originally by: Silent Marauder And only turn on your shield booster at 30% shields cause it will give you the highest amount of boost at that time. I run mine for 2-3 cycles once it gets down to 30% (that usually gets it back up to 40-50% depending on how much damage your taking at the time), by doing this you will find that you use less cap and will have alot less trouble tanking the rats. I do that with capacitor. Try to hold my capacitor by 30% energy, to become the best cap boost. I think the cap boost gives me, more Power then the Shield Boost and is low riskier.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.06.26 07:14:00 - [20] Originally by: Silent Marauder Also my friend has 3 years experience in missions and ratting in eve... he didnt till about 3 months ago start PVP'ing on a real hardcore basis... and even now he still does lvl 4's in 0.0 space when he is not busy with his POS's. I trust he know what he's talking about since last time i saw him do a lvl 4 in a crusader, and to me thats saying something. Yeah that says something to me as well. That he cares nothing for efficiency And tbh if you have access to 0.0 agents efficiency is not an option anyway since a) the risk of being ganked is too high to use an efficient but expensive setup b) the rewards are (or at least were before rev2) so good that you beat highsec and lowsec even in horrible setups. As for you doing 'good' with 2 hours in Serpentis Extra, I don't think I ever did serpentis but afaik it is the easiest Extra, and Angel can be finished in 40 minutes (or even less, been a long time since I did one) with a good setup. Add maybe 20 mins for salvaging the BS, and you cut your time in half... Thank you SkyFlyer! There is no 'n' in tur

l'ga Rathorn	Posted - 2007.06.26 08:11:00 - [21] While not exactly "noob" friendly, I started using torps in missions a month or so back and I've not switched out to cruise since. I use a faction shield booster/amp and 2x faction invuls. Given the 2 free mid slots a couple of PWNAGE really makes a huge difference. two low slots are CPR II's (yes it hurts your boost amount a little, but with 3x ccc rigs in low I'm 100% cap stable which means alot if you get lag spiked/disconned). 3x BCS take up the other lows. What you're left with is a ship that can drop any rat cruiser in 2 volleys (NPC HAC's in 3/4), battlecruisers (all of them) are one volley, and destroyers pop with 3 torps & 1 painter (meaning you can drop 2 destroyers per volley). Granted, it's not that good vs frigs compared to cruise missiles, but if that's an issue you're doing something very wrong. With the new CN torps, you can comfortably clear 900 damage per torp, which is fairly substantial in BS heavy missions.
Ararius e X i l e FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.26 08:40:00 - [22] I run my setup like so Highs- 6x Named Torp Launchers (Their not all arbys, 'cause you dont NEED arbys) Salvager Tractor Beam (Right now I cant have both active at the same time as im low on CPU, but Weapon Upgrades 5 will allow me to fitem both) Mids- Gist CType XL Booster Shield Boost Amp (Sometimes I trade it for a TP) Cap Recharger II 2x Rat Specific Hards 1x Invul Lows- 3 T2 PDUs 2 T2 BCUs My missle skills are 'all that' (Torp level 3....) but it gets the job done, BCs downed in 2-3 Vollys and Cruisers down between 2-4. I use drones on anything under Battlecruisers (so usuallly when im done with the Battleships/BCs most if not all of the Cruisers/frigs are pop'd). It works for me. It's fully sustainable, I could say that a set of low/highgrade Cyrstals would make it zomgunbeatable, seeing as there are still some missions that I cant tank fully yet (one mission that sent me to kill some Matar Navy guys almost pop'd me.... damn matar.... <3), but it can take mostly any mission and come out undamaged. Cap idles at about 38% ish Originally by: Alski It depends how much CCP learn from past user interface mistakes, i'm sure they'll do very well, but if not i'll be right clicking on random people and selecting "Orbit at 0.5m"
jita scout0r	Posted - 2007.06.26 09:35:00 - [23] Edited by: jita scout0r on 26/06/2007 09:36:12
Orangemorphium Quantar Swords SynchronizerZ	Posted - 2007.06.26 09:37:00 - [24] Originally by: Orangemorphium Originally by: Silent Marauder And only turn on your shield booster at 30% shields cause it will give you the highest amount of boost at that time. I run mine for 2-3 cycles once it gets down to 30% (that usually gets it back up to 40-50% depending on how much damage your taking at the time), by doing this you will find that you use less cap and will have alot less trouble tanking the rats. I do that with capacitor. Try to hold my capacitor by 30% energy, to become the best cap boost. I think the cap boost gives me, more Power then the Shield Boost and is low riskier. Hmm, i have think over it. When you lay out your ship for a good cap recharg to serv your shield booster, then i think its better to get your power from hold your cap at 30%. But when your Shiplayout is to get high resistance, then, i think, it would be better you hold your shield at 30% and use the shield recharge power. Any one agree with me or have other ideas or experience? Or all only post "my fitting is far better then yours"? The fitting is the easy thing, good piloting and use the "hints" and "hidden goods" the other... :) Greetings morph PS: Sorry my english is crap...
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.06.26 09:57:00 - [25] Quote: As far as 3 BCU's being "manditory" even my buddy with 3 years experience in eve says thats not true, your buddy is wrong!
Christopher Scott Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.26 10:50:00 - [26] I don't use 3x BCU on my Torp setup because of CPU problems, and I average about 20-30 minutes a mission, so I don't find it really necessary to squeeze enough faction modules in to obtain a third BCU. However, with the release of the LP store and Caldari Navy BCU, anyone should be able to afford a 3x BCU setup. :-) ------------------------------------ I support the following changes: Make warp acceleration faster!
Scrutt5 Visual I.D GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.26 11:08:00 - [27] To make torps effective simple add 3 of the rigs that redices panalty for sig radious by 15%. You'll single salvo the frigs with torps.
Mastin Dragonfly Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.06.26 11:45:00 - [28] Edited by: Mastin Dragonfly on 26/06/2007 11:44:33 Originally by: Silent Marauder and im not doing missions for a get-rich-quick thing, i do them cause they are for the most part challenging. They are challenging because you are handicaping yourself... Originally by: Silent Marauder Toria, I see you also think that 3 BCU's is a must as well... to clarify I use one with 2 missile damage rigs so I guess its like having 3 but it frees up 2 of my lows for other things. Both damage and rof rigs as they are now are very weak compared to regular damage+rof modules because they only boost one aspect while the modules boost two. Two damage rigs don't even come near the boost that 3 BCU's give.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.06.26 12:02:00 - [29] Originally by: Scrutt5 To make torps effective simple add 3 of the rigs that redices panalty for sig radious by 15%. You'll single salvo the frigs with torps. Those rigs DO NOT affect torps. Most reasonable rig assortment for mission raven is 3x CCC rigs or if you feel like you have already enough cap and have CPU to spare then missile speed rigs (targets die a bit faster and you cut of incoming dps slightly faster).
WrathchildeVOTF	Posted - 2007.06.26 12:50:00 - [30] Originally by: The Manner Edited by: The Manner on 26/06/2007 05:33:59 Originally by: Silent Marauder I trust he know what he's talking about since last time i saw him do a lvl 4 in a crusader, and to me thats saying something. why don;t you take his c.0.c.k out of yer ass and stop bsing 1) I have solo'd 2x 1.8M spawns in 0.0 in a Punisher. It works much better in a Crusader. 2) Nice manners. Nice dodge of the filter too.



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