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Eskalin Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.27 16:04:00 - [1] so we have see post after post complaining of lag/desynchronize problems i would like an answer from ccp on what is being done about it. you have promised 1000 ship fleet battles for years but where is it? will it ever happen? walking around in stations may be cool for those who migrated from WoW but not for most of us. when i came to eve from earth and beyond i was stoked no one dancing in station no ****** emotes just evil space combat. is there anything you can say to give us hope that the dream will come to fruition? that our money isn't just being **ed away on additions to a game where it's main attraction is totally inadequate for the needs of the player i put this in general cause it is everyones concern please give us an answer. If babies were not meant to be eaten then they wouldn't be hibachi sized.
Tivookz Caldari Reprocity Pure.	Posted - 2007.06.27 16:10:00 - [2] Edited by: Tivookz on 27/06/2007 16:09:35 I never do this but /signed. This game is about space combat, the space combat part is broken. Priority number one: Fix it asap plz. Priority number two: Make sure priority number one gets done properly. Tiv
Tivookz Caldari Reprocity Pure.	Posted - 2007.06.27 16:10:00 - [3] Edited by: Tivookz on 27/06/2007 16:09:26
Braaage Laborius Chapter	Posted - 2007.06.27 16:14:00 - [4] If only finding lag was as easy as saying "oh yeh it's ......, we can fix that tomorrow". There are so many factors involved servers, database servers, routers, backbones, service providers, home equipment (yeh I know Home stuff isn't really responsible for lag) and then the hamsters. Unless it's blatantley obvious to CCP as to what's causing it you might find it takes several weeks at least to pinpoint the cause and then finding a solution could take just as long. EVE seems as though it's a finely balanced continuous spinning top and just one slight thing programmed wrong and it starts to topple.
Eskalin Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.27 16:19:00 - [5] Originally by: Braaage If only finding lag was as easy as saying "oh yeh it's ......, we can fix that tomorrow". There are so many factors involved servers, database servers, routers, backbones, service providers, home equipment (yeh I know Home stuff isn't really responsible for lag) and then the hamsters. Unless it's blatantley obvious to CCP as to what's causing it you might find it takes several weeks at least to pinpoint the cause and then finding a solution could take just as long. EVE seems as though it's a finely balanced continuous spinning top and just one slight thing programmed wrong and it starts to topple. this being said the problem is an old one and i for one would like to know how they are planing to deal with this. with the population of new eden growing it will just get worse. If babies were not meant to be eaten then they wouldn't be hibachi sized.
DHB WildCat BURN EDEN	Posted - 2007.06.27 16:20:00 - [6] agreed
Tivookz Caldari Reprocity Pure.	Posted - 2007.06.27 16:21:00 - [7] Look, I'm not saying fix it TODAY like the average WoW noob would say. I know it takes time, all I am saying is, do whatever it takes but fix it asap no matter if it takes a month of half a year. All other plans should be lower on the prio list.
fnar g Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.06.27 16:24:00 - [8] Agreed. Originally by: Braaage Unless it's blatantley obvious to CCP as to what's causing it you might find it takes several weeks at least to pinpoint the cause and then finding a solution could take just as long. Very true however the effort being put into things such as walking in stations could be instead put into doing those performance improvements.
Dred'Pirate Jesus Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.06.27 16:27:00 - [9] Originally by: Eskalin (CCP) you have promised 1000 ship fleet battles for years but where is it? will it ever happen? Please point me to the post/article/advertisement that says "1000 ship battles"? All I've ever seen was "Huge fleet battles".. It seems all the wailing and gnashing of teeth over this is that afaik the Devs always considered 100 on 100 a huge fight whilst the metagaming vent/ts phenominon of bringing along the whole 1000 man alliance has blown that figure out of the water to the servers and ultimately players woe.. So will 1000 ship lag free battles ever happen as a design feature of Eve? Probably.. Maybe with the new DX9 client but don't hold your breath.. Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
Lady Natacha Minmatar Water and Power	Posted - 2007.06.27 16:28:00 - [10] Don't expect this to get fixed until CCP can rewrite a considerable amount of their entire client/server application. It is a huge job, and won't happen too quickly.
Eskalin Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.27 16:34:00 - [11] Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Originally by: Eskalin (CCP) you have promised 1000 ship fleet battles for years but where is it? will it ever happen? Please point me to the post/article/advertisement that says "1000 ship battles"? All I've ever seen was "Huge fleet battles".. It seems all the wailing and gnashing of teeth over this is that afaik the Devs always considered 100 on 100 a huge fight whilst the metagaming vent/ts phenominon of bringing along the whole 1000 man alliance has blown that figure out of the water to the servers and ultimately players woe.. So will 1000 ship lag free battles ever happen as a design feature of Eve? Probably.. Maybe with the new DX9 client but don't hold your breath.. look on the back of the retail box If babies were not meant to be eaten then they wouldn't be hibachi sized.
Jane Spondogolo NoobWaffe	Posted - 2007.06.27 16:36:00 - [12] Dear god, me agreeing with a bob guy..... Yeah. Somethings fishy with Desync. This isnt the usual lag problem. I half think lags about normal. Something buggy is up with losing sync where stuff just happens out of sequence and whatnot especially in big fights. Whatevers changed there, its probably un-changeable. ______ Unrepentant Southern Federation Cheerleader.
Recluse Viramor Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.27 16:38:00 - [13] Prolly wouldn't expect much to happen until the new client launches that upgrades the gfx and provides dx10 support. At least i hope they do something major then. I believe the issue is largely associated with how the servers handle load, or rather the lack of it, (AFIAK they adjust weekly based on averages, not real time).
Threv Echandari Caldari Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.06.27 16:40:00 - [14] Originally by: fnar g Agreed. [Very true however the effort being put into things such as walking in stations could be instead put into doing those performance improvements. Sound like alot of you don't know how Software Development works. The Team working on "Walking in stations" is most likely NOT the same people responsible for Server infractructure etc. When it comes to programming, adding 50 more people to the job does not make the job go 50 times faster. That said the Lag issues have been with Eve for awhile, and can't be solved without a MAJOR code rewrite that is probably impractical at this time. In my experience lag has gotten better in some places...but then I don't go to Jita much. Probably the only other thing that could help Eve and Lag is........Sharding and instancing. and the lack of that my friends is one of the very things that makes diffrent fromm every other game. One big world wehre everybody can kill anybody.....Err know and "interact" I mean. Threv That's life. Some people run X accounts. With a better PC. And a faster GFX card. And on a faster network connection. While their wife brings them beer. From the fridge on their yacht.
Fswd	Posted - 2007.06.27 16:42:00 - [15] ... yeah, like graphic designers know anything about server issues... --- So I flame and troll when the occasion calls for it. So what are you gonna do about it?
Dred'Pirate Jesus Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.06.27 16:43:00 - [16] Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 27/06/2007 16:42:40 Originally by: Eskalin Edited by: Eskalin on 27/06/2007 16:34:02 Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Originally by: Eskalin (CCP) you have promised 1000 ship fleet battles for years but where is it? will it ever happen? Please point me to the post/article/advertisement that says "1000 ship battles"? All I've ever seen was "Huge fleet battles".. It seems all the wailing and gnashing of teeth over this is that afaik the Devs always considered 100 on 100 a huge fight whilst the metagaming vent/ts phenominon of bringing along the whole 1000 man alliance has blown that figure out of the water to the servers and ultimately players woe.. So will 1000 ship lag free battles ever happen as a design feature of Eve? Probably.. Maybe with the new DX9 client but don't hold your breath.. it's been promised i cba to look for it if someone else wants to find it for him.... http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0704/Eve_bo018.jpg And? Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
Cheunger BURN EDEN	Posted - 2007.06.27 16:46:00 - [17] Edited by: Cheunger on 27/06/2007 16:44:35 They won't lock the thread. You're in BoB :P Sorry, couldn't resist. lol
Fink Angel Caldari The Merry Men	Posted - 2007.06.27 16:49:00 - [18] Edited by: Fink Angel on 27/06/2007 16:48:26 Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Originally by: Eskalin (CCP) you have promised 1000 ship fleet battles for years but where is it? will it ever happen? Please point me to the post/article/advertisement that says "1000 ship battles"? All I've ever seen was "Huge fleet battles".. It seems all the wailing and gnashing of teeth over this is that afaik the Devs always considered 100 on 100 a huge fight whilst the metagaming vent/ts phenominon of bringing along the whole 1000 man alliance has blown that figure out of the water to the servers and ultimately players woe.. So will 1000 ship lag free battles ever happen as a design feature of Eve? Probably.. Maybe with the new DX9 client but don't hold your breath.. How about this? http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/avdb/news/video/81000/nb/81851_16x9_nb.asx That's my primary beef with CCP, that their publicty machine still rolls along claiming that huge fleet battles are fine and dandy. No problems, nothing to see here. Edit: linkage.
Captain Powers	Posted - 2007.06.27 16:53:00 - [19] This is a harp I'm going to be playing. CCP has created a nice concept with Eve. Problem is that game play is getting worse. It goes through cycles where it gets better but it continues to obtain new lows in the ability to play. I complain in hopes that it will get better since I'm investing money into something that might getter better. IMHO, the server should be able to handle the loads in Jita. If they have created a product that should handle fleet battles of 100's of players ( please, stop laughing ), they should be able to handle the load in Jita. Reality, they are not. Eye candy is nice but if players are waiting 15 minutes to log on, 40 seconds to reload a 10 second ammo load, etc, CCP is wasting the payers ( I spelled it correctly ) time. Best thing would be to support a 1 month boycott to get CCP to have time to reroute routers, get new hardware, hell, get new programmers if needed. But if they can't get if consistent, then we're the fools for following the fools.
Threv Echandari Caldari Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.06.27 16:59:00 - [20] http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0704/Eve_bo018.jpg "Conspire with thousands of others to bring the galaxy to its knees or go it alone and share the glory with no one" Does not equal 1000 Ship Battles. However it does accuratly describe whats going on right now with the "Great War" BTW I'm not Disagreeing with you all about wanting 1000 ship lag free Battles, I just think that CCP is a victim of their own success and the technology to integrate it with the Current environment as it exists isn't there (in a practical sense). Threv That's life. Some people run X accounts. With a better PC. And a faster GFX card. And on a faster network connection. While their wife brings them beer. From the fridge on their yacht.
Fink Angel Caldari The Merry Men	Posted - 2007.06.27 17:05:00 - [21] Originally by: Threv Echandari Does not equal 1000 Ship Battles. However it does accuratly describe whats going on right now with the "Great War" Half way through the link, if you're bored by the beginning! Not sure who that guy is, but he's clearly a representative of CCP, and clearly telling porky pies!
Dred'Pirate Jesus Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.06.27 17:06:00 - [22] Originally by: Fink Angel Edited by: Fink Angel on 27/06/2007 16:48:26 Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Originally by: Eskalin (CCP) you have promised 1000 ship fleet battles for years but where is it? will it ever happen? Please point me to the post/article/advertisement that says "1000 ship battles"? All I've ever seen was "Huge fleet battles".. It seems all the wailing and gnashing of teeth over this is that afaik the Devs always considered 100 on 100 a huge fight whilst the metagaming vent/ts phenominon of bringing along the whole 1000 man alliance has blown that figure out of the water to the servers and ultimately players woe.. So will 1000 ship lag free battles ever happen as a design feature of Eve? Probably.. Maybe with the new DX9 client but don't hold your breath.. How about this? http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/avdb/news/video/81000/nb/81851_16x9_nb.asx That's my primary beef with CCP, that their publicty machine still rolls along claiming that huge fleet battles are fine and dandy. No problems, nothing to see here. Edit: linkage. Quote: "Yestarday we had a 1000 ship fleet battle" Thats all he mentioned and quickly passed on to another topic.. This has been done to death guys.. Noone ever thought that players would feild fleets that huge.. It was a complete suprise when it started happeneing and so far I think CCP has been going balls to the walls to make it happen as a fully intended design function not a borderline exploit used by huge alliances to metagame thier way to the top..(you know who you are and what you do.. ) And to all the posters quiping off little one shots about how its easily done.. Well.. lol.. End result is that CCP sees that they can't control how big a fleet can be used through ingame means without breaking the sandbox nature of the game and the alliance now need to have huge fleets to defend/take over teritory.. So CCP is buying hardware and hiring new coders like crazy to keep up with the players.. And what do we get? WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I say blame the Goons for bringing the whole blob thing to common use.. Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
Fink Angel Caldari The Merry Men	Posted - 2007.06.27 17:09:00 - [23] Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Quote: "Yestarday we had a 1000 ship fleet battle" Thats all he mentioned and quickly passed on to another topic.. So making a false claim is OK as long as you don't dwell on it too long?
Eskalin Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.27 17:13:00 - [24] Edited by: Eskalin on 27/06/2007 17:12:45 this is not i repeat not an open invitation to complain in an unconstructive fasion so plz take them elseware i cant spell 4tl If babies were not meant to be eaten then they wouldn't be hibachi sized.
Indigo Johnson Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.27 17:16:00 - [25] An answer from CCP would be nice, don't bring moderation or alliance name into it. Who doesn't want 250 v 250 lag free battles? Ofc, if 1000 v 1000 lag free battles were ever possible my God - awesome wouldn't even describe it.
Dred'Pirate Jesus Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.06.27 17:19:00 - [26] Originally by: Fink Angel Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Quote: "Yestarday we had a 1000 ship fleet battle" Thats all he mentioned and quickly passed on to another topic.. So making a false claim is OK as long as you don't dwell on it too long? How was it a false staement? I'm fairly sure it happend.. It would have been false to then go on about how awesome said battle was and how lag free it was.. Actually that he even brought it up at all hints that they might be getting a handle on the whole blob phenominom and feels that a quick little bit of info would be alright.. You have to admit that lag as a whole has droppend dramaticaly for nearly every section of eve except the really huge fleet fights and certain market hubs.. I know for one that I rarely ever experiance lag at any point in the game anymore.. Sometimes I get a spike now and then but overall its smooth as butter.. With three clints at once even in a mission! But thats not what the OP is complaining about.. Its the uber blob fleet warfare lagging out thier offensive.. And it will eventually get fixed.. Eventually.. Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
Black Jumper Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.06.27 17:20:00 - [27] Dear Game dev, can we have a briefing on lag / desync problms and way to resolve them as said in thos original post ? Thank you. BJ
Rhaegor Stormborn Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2007.06.27 17:22:00 - [28] Originally by: Threv Echandari Sound like alot of you don't know how Software Development works. The Team working on "Walking in stations" is most likely NOT the same people responsible for Server infractructure etc. The money paying their salary is the same money that could be used to hire more people to work on the lag. RISE Recruitment Thread
Elve Sorrow Amarr Shinra	Posted - 2007.06.27 17:22:00 - [29] Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 27/06/2007 17:21:46 Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Originally by: Fink Angel Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Quote: "Yestarday we had a 1000 ship fleet battle" Thats all he mentioned and quickly passed on to another topic.. So making a false claim is OK as long as you don't dwell on it too long? How was it a false staement? I'm fairly sure it happend.. It would have been false to then go on about how awesome said battle was and how lag free it was.. You're fairly sure it happened? I'm fairly sure the server crashed 7 times in the build up to this battle, and the quoted 1000 players never made it into the same system. There was never over 400(maybe 500? will check) players in the system. I didnt even mention fighting, because no such thing happened. EVE-O Forums Rules summary: If the thought of doing something makes me giggle for more then 15 seconds, I am to assume I'm not allowed to do it.
Fink Angel Caldari The Merry Men	Posted - 2007.06.27 17:29:00 - [30] Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus How was it a false staement? I'm fairly sure it happend.. It would have been false to then go on about how awesome said battle was and how lag free it was.. Maybe "1000 people wanted to have a fleet battle" would be closer to reality. As the server can't handle 300 Vs 100 which is way off 500 Vs 500, it doesn't seem possible. If it ever was possible, then they need to start unpicking code changes since then. Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Actually that he even brought it up at all hints that they might be getting a handle on the whole blob phenominom and feels that a quick little bit of info would be alright.. You have to admit that lag as a whole has droppend dramaticaly for nearly every section of eve except the really huge fleet fights and certain market hubs.. I know for one that I rarely ever experiance lag at any point in the game anymore.. Sometimes I get a spike now and then but overall its smooth as butter.. With three clints at once even in a mission! But thats not what the OP is complaining about.. Its the uber blob fleet warfare lagging out thier offensive.. And it will eventually get fixed.. Eventually.. I agree about lag in general, and agree it's not really what the OP is complaining about. I've said my piece and am concerned about derailing the thread, so I'll stop this line of conversation now.
Dred'Pirate Jesus Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.06.27 17:34:00 - [31] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 27/06/2007 17:21:46 Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Originally by: Fink Angel Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Quote: "Yestarday we had a 1000 ship fleet battle" Thats all he mentioned and quickly passed on to another topic.. So making a false claim is OK as long as you don't dwell on it too long? How was it a false staement? I'm fairly sure it happend.. It would have been false to then go on about how awesome said battle was and how lag free it was.. You're fairly sure it happened? I'm fairly sure the server crashed 7 times in the build up to this battle, and the quoted 1000 players never made it into the same system. There was never over 400(maybe 500? will check) players in the system. I didnt even mention fighting, because no such thing happened. Wow! Well figure that! 1000 ships all trying to get into one system killing the server! OMGWTFBBQ! Amazing what happens when you push the servers past thier designed limits! Like I said he simply mentioned it happened and gave no details.. And so far thats the only instance we have of him mentioning it so its not a concerted effort to give the illusion that eve can currently handle a fight that big.. Or are there other instances that can be dug up? I'll glady take back my stance if proof that CCP is advertising 1000 ship battles as the normal way of fleet warfare can be produced.. Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
tiewan	Posted - 2007.06.27 17:40:00 - [32] Originally by: Eskalin Edited by: Eskalin on 27/06/2007 16:23:59 so we have see post after post complaining of lag/desynchronize problems i would like an answer from ccp on what is being done about it. you have promised 1000 ship fleet battles for years but where is it? will it ever happen? walking around in stations may be cool for those who migrated from WoW but not for most of us. when i came to eve from earth and beyond i was stoked no one dancing in station no ****** emotes just evil space combat. is there anything you can say to give us hope that the dream will come to fruition? that our money isn't just being **ed away on additions to a game where it's main attraction is totally inadequate for the needs of the player i put this in general cause it is everyones concern please give us an answer. The answer is no. Goodbye.
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.27 17:42:00 - [33] I don't know about you. My PC is oh so more powerful from what it was on Eve launch... I should not even comment on the gfx card whose features eve doesn't use at all (new client away to use them? let's see) My net connection is waaaay better. Eve is steadily getting worse since mid-2004, lag-wise. So far, you have to be lucky and do that big-ish battle of 100vs100 in a system that belongs to a node that isn't that much loaded and blah blah blah to get like 15second module activation lag... and that is called a relatively lag-free battle nowadays Well ok let's say 15+ seconds lag is acceptable.... but what are all those client freezes!? Some absurd client programming if you ask me The answer would be: Ok guys, we can't admit large battles aren't an option without a major program/network code rewrite... that would push away potential new customers. So instead we'll hire people to program walking on stations to get more ppl in, since all you do is whine and the ammount of ppl that actualy quits over it is too small to bother
Amerame Section XIII	Posted - 2007.06.27 17:45:00 - [34] Got an answer from my ship loss petition, the usual couldn't find any problem with the server, which added insult to injury. First of all I'm a proponent of "no ship loss in pvp should ever be reimbursed", that being said telling people that were in 6T3 that there was "no server side lag" is bull***, and that CCP decide to simply ignore the problem. Patch after patch, extension after extension we were promised to improvement in fleet battle lag, this never happened. I don't believe that ignoring a problem which ruin players experience in alliance warfare is the way to go. We don't even have an answer on this hot topic yet, nearly 24 hours after the initial thread, dozens of pages of complaint, we do not even get a "we're looking into this new de-synch problem" which still wouldn't be much except that a guy would have seemed to read a part of the threads in CCP. There are more people in 0.0 than ever, more people playing eve than ever, the "blobs" will not magicaly disapear, it is even how Eve is supposed* to be played and yet, every time there is even relatively small scale fight between 100 players you can get crippling lag. Every single time 200 people fight or more, it's just painful.
Lady Natacha Minmatar Water and Power	Posted - 2007.06.27 17:54:00 - [35] Quote: Quote: "Yestarday we had a 1000 ship fleet battle" He didn't say all the fleet was in the same system now did he? This is called PR spin, and CCP will be doing this whenever possible. As has already been pointed out, noobs don't participate in fleet combat or a lot of the stuff in game that isn't currently up to snuff. As long as noobs keep subscribing and turning over, this keeps the company coffers filled and corporate expansion plans on track.
Filatov Teg Rebirth Inc. Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.06.27 18:00:00 - [36] Agree. Do somethin mister Crowd Control Programm -------------------------------------- Ride on Shooting staaaaaaaarrrrrrrr!!!
Dred'Pirate Jesus Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.06.27 18:02:00 - [37] Originally by: Lady Natacha Quote: Quote: "Yestarday we had a 1000 ship fleet battle" He didn't say all the fleet was in the same system now did he? This is called PR spin, and CCP will be doing this whenever possible. As has already been pointed out, noobs don't participate in fleet combat or a lot of the stuff in game that isn't currently up to snuff. As long as noobs keep subscribing and turning over, this keeps the company coffers filled and corporate expansion plans on track. Exactly.. And I'm fairly sure that getting huge fleet ops to a playable level is one of CCP's top goals but one which isn't easily attainable.. I feel your pain allainace players but the cold hard fact is that your a minority in the overall eve population even if you have the largest single concentration of memberships.. This means that they focus on things that pay the bills like overall server stability and features for eveyone.. Your day is coming though.. Just not as fast as you would like.. Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
Fink Angel Caldari The Merry Men	Posted - 2007.06.27 18:03:00 - [38] Originally by: Lady Natacha Quote: Quote: "Yestarday we had a 1000 ship fleet battle" He didn't say all the fleet was in the same system now did he? This is called PR spin, and CCP will be doing this whenever possible. As has already been pointed out, noobs don't participate in fleet combat or a lot of the stuff in game that isn't currently up to snuff. As long as noobs keep subscribing and turning over, this keeps the company coffers filled and corporate expansion plans on track. How can you have a fleet battle that's not in the same system? Maybe he considers black screen on jump in as part of the battle. Yor pod pilot was knocked unconscious on exiting the jump game! OK, here's the exact quote. He said "For instance the other day we had a gang battle, <corrcts himself>, a fleet battle of over one thousand people fighting in the same solar system, so you can imagine the amount of co-ordination and so forth needed ..." It's not PR spin. If someone sold me a car and said it could do 200 MPH and could actually only do 50 MPH, I wouldn't call that PR spin!
Angor The JORG Corporation FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.27 18:06:00 - [39] eve is just a victim of its own success _______________________________ Your signature image exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo
Fink Angel Caldari The Merry Men	Posted - 2007.06.27 18:07:00 - [40] Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Originally by: Lady Natacha Quote: Quote: "Yestarday we had a 1000 ship fleet battle" He didn't say all the fleet was in the same system now did he? Exactly.. You've actually watched and listened to the link, yes? The part where he says "... in the same solar system ..." kinda clarifies this. You'd make a terrible lawyer. Lionel Hutz would run rings around you!
Dred'Pirate Jesus Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.06.27 18:12:00 - [41] Way to butcher my quote to have it say what you want it to say.. Semantics aside its a single quote from a single source.. Hardly a mass media PR campain to sell new players on a busted gameplay feature.. Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
Lady Natacha Minmatar Water and Power	Posted - 2007.06.27 18:17:00 - [42] Originally by: Fink Angel You'd make a terrible lawyer. Lionel Hutz would run rings around you! Depends on what your definition of a "lawyer" is doesn't it? That is the point, wordplay. You can't take corporate PR at face value. Sometimes exploring what a PR statement doesn't say, yields more facts.
tiewan	Posted - 2007.06.27 18:20:00 - [43] Originally by: ElCoCo I don't know about you. My PC is oh so more powerful from what it was on Eve launch... I should not even comment on the gfx card whose features eve doesn't use at all (new client away to use them? let's see) My net connection is waaaay better. Eve is steadily getting worse since mid-2004, lag-wise. So far, you have to be lucky and do that big-ish battle of 100vs100 in a system that belongs to a node that isn't that much loaded and blah blah blah to get like 15second module activation lag... and that is called a relatively lag-free battle nowadays Well ok let's say 15+ seconds lag is acceptable.... but what are all those client freezes!? Some absurd client programming if you ask me The answer would be: Ok guys, we can't admit large battles aren't an option without a major program/network code rewrite... that would push away potential new customers. So instead we'll hire people to program walking on stations to get more ppl in, since all you do is whine and the ammount of ppl that actualy quits over it is too small to bother You know nothing. goodbye
Tasuric Orka Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.27 18:40:00 - [44] It is obvious that CCP cannot "tweak" or "fix" their way out of the issue after all this time messing around with it. This leads me to believe that the engine is not suited for what is currently being asked of it, it would need to be altered and rewritten, which would take an immense amount of time and would change eve as developers "tweak" other area's that they think could be better. It's also obvious CCP is not doing these things, they just feed us information laced with words like "tweaks" and "firmware upgrades", but we continue to lag the ** up whenever ** hits the fan. So, either CCP is unwilling to take the time to overhaul the engine, as it doesnÆt attract players like new shiny, high poly/detail ships do. Or they are simply naive in thinking they can "tweak n'fix" their way out of this, as player numbers rise and we continue to lag. Lastly, they could simply be incompetent. I don't like any of these, but since ccp has not notified us of anything concrete being planned to really cut down this lag problem, IÆm left with a bad feeling about the whole thing, as in thinking it will never change.
Dred'Pirate Jesus Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.06.27 18:44:00 - [45] Originally by: Tasuric Orka It is obvious that CCP cannot "tweak" or "fix" their way out of the issue after all this time messing around with it. This leads me to believe that the engine is not suited for what is currently being asked of it, it would need to be altered and rewritten, which would take an immense amount of time and would change eve as developers "tweak" other area's that they think could be better. It's also obvious CCP is not doing these things, they just feed us information laced with words like "tweaks" and "firmware upgrades", but we continue to lag the ** up whenever hits the fan. So, either CCP is unwilling to take the time to overhaul the engine, as it doesnÆt attract players like new shiny, high poly/detail ships do. Or they are simply naive in thinking they can "tweak n'fix" their way out of this, as player numbers rise and we continue to lag. Lastly, they could simply be incompetent. I don't like any of these, but since ccp has not notified us of anything concrete being planned to really cut down this lag problem, IÆm left with a bad feeling about the whole thing, as in thinking it will never change. You do realise the the new client will have more than just new graphics yes? Why spend programming resorces on the outdated (current) client when they could just do it all from scratch with the new one? Originally by:** David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
Tasuric Orka Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.27 18:54:00 - [46] Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Originally by: Tasuric Orka It is obvious that CCP cannot "tweak" or "fix" their way out of the issue after all this time messing around with it. This leads me to believe that the engine is not suited for what is currently being asked of it, it would need to be altered and rewritten, which would take an immense amount of time and would change eve as developers "tweak" other area's that they think could be better. It's also obvious CCP is not doing these things, they just feed us information laced with words like "tweaks" and "firmware upgrades", but we continue to lag the ** up whenever ** hits the fan. So, either CCP is unwilling to take the time to overhaul the engine, as it doesnÆt attract players like new shiny, high poly/detail ships do. Or they are simply naive in thinking they can "tweak n'fix" their way out of this, as player numbers rise and we continue to lag. Lastly, they could simply be incompetent. I don't like any of these, but since ccp has not notified us of anything concrete being planned to really cut down this lag problem, IÆm left with a bad feeling about the whole thing, as in thinking it will never change. You do realise the the new client will have more than just new graphics yes? Why spend programming resorces on the outdated (current) client when they could just do it all from scratch with the new one? They can always add more, like they have for years now. But they need to re do, or significantly change the foundation. So this "new client" carries no more hope with it than normal updates, in the lag department.
Dred'Pirate Jesus Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.06.27 19:08:00 - [47] Originally by: Tasuric Orka Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Originally by: Tasuric Orka It is obvious that CCP cannot "tweak" or "fix" their way out of the issue after all this time messing around with it. This leads me to believe that the engine is not suited for what is currently being asked of it, it would need to be altered and rewritten, which would take an immense amount of time and would change eve as developers "tweak" other area's that they think could be better. It's also obvious CCP is not doing these things, they just feed us information laced with words like "tweaks" and "firmware upgrades", but we continue to lag the ** up whenever hits the fan. So, either CCP is unwilling to take the time to overhaul the engine, as it doesnÆt attract players like new shiny, high poly/detail ships do. Or they are simply naive in thinking they can "tweak n'fix" their way out of this, as player numbers rise and we continue to lag. Lastly, they could simply be incompetent. I don't like any of these, but since ccp has not notified us of anything concrete being planned to really cut down this lag problem, IÆm left with a bad feeling about the whole thing, as in thinking it will never change. You do realise the the new client will have more than just new graphics yes? Why spend programming resorces on the outdated (current) client when they could just do it all from scratch with the new one? They can always add more, like they have for years now. But they need to re do, or significantly change the foundation. So this "new client" carries no more hope with it than normal updates, in the lag department. Mmmmm.. No.. You can't 'always add more' as there is a limit to what you can add to keep compatibility with older parts of the code.. Why do you think we always get the patch day blues with all the random junk that happens after every major patch? I think whats happend is that the game has grown faster than the devs had projected and work on the new cient has not been able to be sped up enough to get it out before eve reached critical mass.. So now we have more stuff going on than the current client can handle.. The new client will address much of the problems we have now though I doubt that it will handle a 1000 ship battle out of the gate.. But.. It will have the scaleability built in to make it happen far faster than will be possible (if at all..) with the old client.. Patience Grasshopper.. Originally by:** David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
leefdorp Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.06.27 19:28:00 - [48] /signed whats ccp is waiting for?
Tasuric Orka Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.27 19:30:00 - [49] Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Mmmmm.. No.. You can't 'always add more' as there is a limit to what you can add to keep compatibility with older parts of the code.. Why do you think we always get the patch day blues with all the random junk that happens after every major patch? I think whats happend is that the game has grown faster than the devs had projected and work on the new cient has not been able to be sped up enough to get it out before eve reached critical mass.. So now we have more stuff going on than the current client can handle.. The new client will address much of the problems we have now though I doubt that it will handle a 1000 ship battle out of the gate.. But.. It will have the scaleability built in to make it happen far faster than will be possible (if at all..) with the old client.. Patience Grasshopper.. You can always add more, as long as it is compatible, and the sheer volume doesnÆt "break" the foundation. This is what CCP has been doing basically, adding ingame ôstuffö, changing the mechanics, audovisual. This is what they have planned for the awesome new client(tm), so maybe itÆs not really an "awesome new client(tm)", but simply "old familiar crap of mixed blessings and curses" such as the normal updates, only now with ALOT of new eye candy. Patience wears thin when grinding for ingame isk during weekdays , 20 euro's a month gets you a black sceen during the weekends and a "go back to start" card when you dare take part in the "epic" things that eve trailers just LOVE to show you. Even if they were to be working on "the magic pill" that will allow me to actually control my ship in the time that it matters most, I would appreciate it if they would tell me it was coming later, and not try to sweet talk the community with empty promises and announcement of new pukeware and "tweaks". So yeah, IÆm not hopeful. And just to be clear, I appreciate the game, otherwise I wouldnÆt be ranting here. But things have been handled.. clumsily to say the least.
Gort Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.06.27 19:31:00 - [50] Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Originally by: Threv Echandari Sound like alot of you don't know how Software Development works. The Team working on "Walking in stations" is most likely NOT the same people responsible for Server infractructure etc. The money paying their salary is the same money that could be used to hire more people to work on the lag. I'm afraid you are falling prey to the mythical man month syndrome. In some activities (and software development is one) you can't make a baby in one month by getting nine women pregnant. Regards, Gort -- When in doubt, empty the magazine.
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.06.27 19:33:00 - [51] /signed No matter how much you try and apply the 14:th coat to make the game look better, if that doesn't make the engine run properly, it'll just be a shiny block of lead, shiny, but still a block of useless lead. - Recruitment open again-
Jakiri GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.27 19:40:00 - [52] Edited by: Jakiri on 27/06/2007 19:39:33 The talk about fights involving hundreds of people is not actually that relevent - I'm sure we'd all like to be able to fight in these epic space battles, but unfortunately it's not just things of that scale that cause desyncing (which is a seperate issue from lag - lag corrects itself eventually, desyncing can only be fixed with a session change). I was just in a gang of 20 people who were sitting on a gate, with around 100 people at most in local, and we found out, when hostile pilots jumped into us, that we were all desynced and either had to quit the game ourselves or just had the thing crash straight off the bat. (NB: I don't think the hostiles, who were mostly BoB, caused the desync - it was just the action of them jumping through that caused us to notice) People have complained about lag before, and I'm sure CCP would love to fix the lag if they could. However, this frequency of desyncing is something new in the recent patch and is making the game extremely difficult to play, as even when mining I've been encountering them fairly frequently. Before RevII, I had been desynced once in total. I'm not going to threaten to quit, I'm not going to say that CCP are incompetent or that our opponents are cheating. I just would like this problem to go away so we can go back to deciding fleet combat by the skill of individual pilots and by the number of friends you can find, as I'm sure we all would.
Black Jumper Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.06.27 19:40:00 - [53] 77S 19h00 Eve time : 50 men fleet entering in 77s (120 persons in the system, in station and everything). Client desynchronized 10 seconds after the jumpin. Warp out order given, 10 minutes passed still no sign of life from the client ... Oh well guess we will all have to go mining in Jita eh ?
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.27 19:43:00 - [54] Originally by: tiewan You know nothing. goodbye I experience lots, I don't need to know anything other than what they say, which is nothing concrete other than wishful thinking. Now go back and hide behind your alt.
rig0r 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.06.27 19:47:00 - [55] Agreed, at the very least say you are working on it or something. Not too much to ask now is it ?
abukede Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.27 19:47:00 - [56] Edited by: abukede on 27/06/2007 19:48:58 First, I would like to thank CCP for developing the best and most engaging space sim ever! I think most of us can agree on what CCP has accomplished in just a few years is simply amazing. Second, I would like to support this post by kindly asking CCP to invest resources, time and labor into improving the ability of the game by making large scale battles with limited lag even remotely possible. Having personally commanded some of the largest fleets ever assembled in Eve I have personally both profited and lost due to massive lag spikes brought on by turly awe inspiring player cooperation where the game freezes or simple drops the majority of one side or even both. Large Scale Fleet fights will make Eve second to none in the MMO world. Please I call on CCP to make this a reality for those of us who have paid and played hard for so many years. Dice is the Predator and Eve is our prey.
Kellen Pikara Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.27 19:50:00 - [57] Originally by: Jakiri Edited by: Jakiri on 27/06/2007 19:39:33 I was just in a gang of 20 people who were sitting on a gate, with around 100 people at most in local, and we found out, when hostile pilots jumped into us, that we were all desynced and either had to quit the game ourselves or just had the thing crash straight off the bat. (NB: I don't think the hostiles, who were mostly BoB, caused the desync - it was just the action of them jumping through that caused us to notice) Along these lines, I warped to a gate with about ten guys on it, and as I was sitting there debating whether or not to jump through, someone jumped in from the other side. Instant desynch. No one was shooting, no one was targeting, we were all just sitting there. Some corpmates have been reporting desynching while ratting.
Tasuric Orka Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.27 20:00:00 - [58] Originally by: abukede Edited by: abukede on 27/06/2007 19:48:58 First, I would like to thank CCP for developing the best and most engaging space sim ever! I think most of us can agree on what CCP has accomplished in just a few years is simply amazing. Second, I would like to support this post by kindly asking CCP to invest resources, time and labor into improving the ability of the game by making large scale battles with limited lag even remotely possible. Having personally commanded some of the largest fleets ever assembled in Eve I have personally both profited and lost due to massive lag spikes brought on by turly awe inspiring player cooperation where the game freezes or simple drops the majority of one side or even both. Large Scale Fleet fights will make Eve second to none in the MMO world. Please I call on CCP to make this a reality for those of us who have paid and played hard for so many years. Quoted for truth. This single issue, apart from exploits should take the highest priority. Eye candy hardly matters when you fight on the overview and only see brackets with either purple or red thingies attached in space.. But whatever, CCP either doesnt care, can't fix it, is actually fixing it.. They ain't talking, so all we can do is wait, and let lag have its way with our ships.
titanstory FRENCH NAVY Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.06.27 20:04:00 - [59] /signed. try to fix it plz
fnar g Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.06.27 20:04:00 - [60] Originally by: Threv Echandari Sound like alot of you don't know how Software Development works. The Team working on "Walking in stations" is most likely NOT the same people responsible for Server infractructure etc. What is being asked is that performance is given a higher priority than extra features. How CCP do that is up to them, all we can do is give them some kind of feedback on what we as customers would like. Going OT but to answer your point, we're not really talking about software development this is more systems development. I doubt the solution to the latency issues lies purely in one piece of code. I agree that generally speaking 'too many chefs spoil the broth' but not if the broth is split across hundreds of servers, thousands of lines of code and about 15 different networked systems interacting with each other. In those cases generally the more eyes the better although they do need to be well managed.
Adamantium Beam	Posted - 2007.06.27 20:05:00 - [61] Edited by: Adamantium Beam on 27/06/2007 20:04:25 Desyn and BoB thread, do something CCP plz
Dred'Pirate Jesus Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.06.27 20:08:00 - [62] Originally by: Tasuric Orka Originally by: abukede Edited by: abukede on 27/06/2007 19:48:58 First, I would like to thank CCP for developing the best and most engaging space sim ever! I think most of us can agree on what CCP has accomplished in just a few years is simply amazing. Second, I would like to support this post by kindly asking CCP to invest resources, time and labor into improving the ability of the game by making large scale battles with limited lag even remotely possible. Having personally commanded some of the largest fleets ever assembled in Eve I have personally both profited and lost due to massive lag spikes brought on by turly awe inspiring player cooperation where the game freezes or simple drops the majority of one side or even both. Large Scale Fleet fights will make Eve second to none in the MMO world. Please I call on CCP to make this a reality for those of us who have paid and played hard for so many years. Quoted for truth. This single issue, apart from exploits should take the highest priority. Eye candy hardly matters when you fight on the overview and only see brackets with either purple or red thingies attached in space.. But whatever, CCP either doesnt care, can't fix it, is actually fixing it.. They ain't talking, so all we can do is wait, and let lag have its way with our ships. I agree with you both but it just not gonna happen soon no matter how much extra resorces are thrown at it.. If its a fundumantal problem with syncing up that many ships at once in one system it will take a stroke of genius to solve it not 10 extra programmers and more hardware.. I'm betting that they are fixing it though and are keeping mum to not get everyone all riled up when the inevitable glitch pops up and the timetable gets pushed farther back.. You know how bad you guys get when something is officialy stated then arrives late or is broken if it was released early.. Besides.. As soon as they make 1000 ship fights viable you'll just bring 2000 ships and start the whole thing all over again.. Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
chrisreeves Gallente Asgard Protectorate	Posted - 2007.06.27 20:09:00 - [63] I thought that CCP was trying to get away from the large fleet battles? They wanted to "reduce the blob" by implementing changes and additions to the game in the form of bombs, etc. To reduce the "blob affect", they add structures at the outpost that you shoot, move stuff outside the pos bubble to shoot, add more structures to the pos's to shoot, which of course have had an opposite affect from what I am hearing and reading. Honestly, I don't think that they can reduce the lag and desynch problems. I think that they will use other means to reduce it by changing the game instead of working on the lag without changing the fundamental gameplay. They removed instas to in hopes to remoev lag and I honestly only saw a difference for a very short time (coulpe weeks). They remove game play features to hopefully solve the lag but to the player it doesn't appear to translate over into a real feeling that those changes have helped in the areas where it really matters, like large scale battles. I too am interested in hearing an answer to the questions brought up in this thread. ----------------- Originally by: kieron The Ibis was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile. "It was empty!!"
Ulesi FinFleet	Posted - 2007.06.27 20:13:00 - [64] I was in a fleet battle just a few minutes ago in 77s, probably 150ish ships involved. The order came to jump through the gate and start attacking the enemy. I jumped through, overview loaded, started locking, continued to lock, continued to lock, continued to lock, continued to lock...Then someone said over Teamspeak that all the hostiles had warped away yet they were still on my overview. Dsync is getting really bad now. Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face...
bellas	Posted - 2007.06.27 20:15:00 - [65] even if you give advanced warnings to ccp that large operations will be happening in a system for several days, they are still unable to deal with it. the second and third days battles are not any better than first, even when reminded that this operation will last for several days. the total from both sides has been 200 - 400, not thousands. it's sad but ccp is just not capable of handling this and do not intend to invest the money to change it. eve as a product has been marketed and out there in it's current form for 4 years and has peaked as far as any further growth. the only possible way for new growth is changes that bring a different type of player. they will add the walking in stations and other things to attract that bigger base. those looking for a clear statement about when and how and what about lag are wasting your time. it cannot be done and justify the cost. they will not say that of course, it would cause a massive drop in players and thus killing any future revinue. it is a business people, ROE has not been spectacular for eve i would guess. new subscribers are needed.
Stelteck Minmatar Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.06.27 20:15:00 - [66] Signed. Ressources have to be invested in making the most awesome and lag free fleet battle possible !! These battle are unique to eve, the unique feature of this game and the thing that make many player to participate to this awesome game. For small roaming group we can have better fast action in many others games, even in WOW. The first thing to do in my opinion is a way to dynamicaly renforce overbooked nodes, without having to reboot it like in the current situation. Stelteck. Tau ceti FEDERATION Section XIII "Brakes are for cowards"
Amerame Section XIII	Posted - 2007.06.27 20:19:00 - [67] Originally by: chrisreeves To reduce the "blob affect", they add structures at the outpost that you shoot, move stuff outside the pos bubble to shoot, add more structures to the pos's to shoot, which of course have had an opposite affect from what I am hearing and reading. You should try attacking a large pos with 20 ships, or shooting a module on an outpost with 10... But you're right, a possibility would be to try to regionalize conflict, instead of having global conflict (i.e. 2 frontlines in eve). Making logistic trivial through MS / Titan / freighter was a move in the wrong direction. Anything that facilitate logistic or reduce travel time (like clone jump) will increase the size of blobs. That being said, I'm pretty sure that combat complexity is quadratic, and as long as they don't seriously rethink it to make it linear or log linear, hardware upgrade and minor tweaking will not do, after 4 years CCP should have realized.
Andrei Vassaliev Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.06.27 20:25:00 - [68] Originally by: Eskalin Edited by: Eskalin on 27/06/2007 16:23:59 so we have see post after post complaining of lag/desynchronize problems i would like an answer from ccp on what is being done about it. you have promised 1000 ship fleet battles for years but where is it? will it ever happen? walking around in stations may be cool for those who migrated from WoW but not for most of us. when i came to eve from earth and beyond i was stoked no one dancing in station no ****** emotes just evil space combat. is there anything you can say to give us hope that the dream will come to fruition? that our money isn't just being **ed away on additions to a game where it's main attraction is totally inadequate for the needs of the player i put this in general cause it is everyones concern please give us an answer. /signed
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.06.27 20:41:00 - [69] To fix a problem one needs to understand it first. I am far from understanding the desync problem. Lag...okay, that I know and that I understand how it happens. But desync? What is that? How can it happen. And don't say now 'the server processes different data than the client'. How could that ever happen?? Aren't the protocols reliable? I mean...seriously, what exactly is a desync and when does it happen? Before people talk about things which they don't know (and unless they are a dev and know the code it is just guesswork) they should wait for some dev to explain it, or not. Personally I believe (mind you, not know but believe) that the lag in large fleet battles is caused by suboptimal algorithms with polynomial runtime behaviour, maybe quadratic. If that could be changed to linear or n*log n then many problems might disappear automatically. But that is all guesswork only here. In any case, some blog about this with details would be really interesting and might appease the masses
MrTripps Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.27 20:42:00 - [70] Having recently got back into fleet battles I would like to see this issue addressed. We had 230 ships shooting at a POS when my screen froze while my hard drive thrashed. It stayed like that for several min until I rebooted. The op last night only had 40 ships and I was still only getting 3.3 fps. Next one I'm just gonna take a domi and use sentry drones since reloading and reactivating rails on a meg takes way too long in a lag fest. I'm sure CCP would like to fix it, but it sounds like a technically demanding problem. Off hand I can't think of any game that scales into hundreds of players in one area all that well. I know CS and TFC games got laggy with 64 players on the same server. "Life is nothing but a competition to be the criminal rather than the victim." - Bertrand Russell
Parapolizei GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.27 21:21:00 - [71] This is a pretty big problem right now as it is frequently happening to smaller gangs, and not just massive fleets. Can we have an answer and/or acknowledgment of this issue?
Rabbitual Ferrier	Posted - 2007.06.27 21:56:00 - [72] Edited by: Rabbitual Ferrier on 27/06/2007 21:55:44 Originally by: Threv Echandari Edited by: Threv Echandari on 27/06/2007 16:43:46 Originally by: fnar g Agreed. [Very true however the effort being put into things such as walking in stations could be instead put into doing those performance improvements. Sound like alot of you don't know how Software Development works. The Team working on "Walking in stations" is most likely NOT the same people responsible for Server infractructure etc. When it comes to programming, adding 50 more people to the job does not make the job go 50 times faster. That said the Lag issues have been with QFT - Even if you took the development team from the Walking in Stations and plonked them into Lag Solutions, you'd actually get a slowing down of development (unless you wanted to release to live without testing). In my experience for every Developer you add, you'll need to compensate with more testers and more testing rigs to allow for anything approching an improvement in end product (as well as bug fixers, Config Management staff, QA Staff). Guess what I do for a living!! Incidently Lag has improved dramatically I can remember when having four on four could result in serious lag if the area was remotely busy...
Amerame Section XIII	Posted - 2007.06.27 21:59:00 - [73] But is there even a "team" working solely on the combat engine ? Is it by far the largest team and the one with the most funding ? Are the most qualified people working in this team ? Has CCP a separate team that is rewritting the combat code entirely (no good will ever come until they do that) ?
Fink Angel Caldari The Merry Men	Posted - 2007.06.27 22:08:00 - [74] They need to get in a genius. The world's leading authority on MMOG lag issues, or suchlike. I think it might need looking at with a completely fresh set of eyes. Like for years and years, compression had been lossless and run length encoded, that sort of thing. Then someone came up with the idea that you can throw stuff away that can't be percieved, and we ended up with JPEG and MP3. We desperately need this leap up to the next level for a virtual world to support thousands of people in the same place at the same time. ... and no, I have no idea what the answer is.
Black Jumper Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.06.27 22:56:00 - [75] Edited by: Black Jumper on 27/06/2007 22:55:15 Thanks for the constructive remarks of this thread. Though some of you miss the point. Since Revelations 2 client desynchronization with the server (aka nothing moves on screen, friend, foe or your ship don't move at all ; you can still send orders to your ship / module though not everythig like relaoding guns which doesn't seem to work at all) has become a major issue happening almost every day. This "desynchronization", as it has been named, is not usual lag or very long time loading grid / module activation. This problem is naturaly related with the way server and client communicate and with lag larger issue. But it does forbid you to see anything happening (ships incoming / leaving, damages inflicted and received ...). The way the client manages lag seems totally broken since Rev 2. This Desync problem has been known to happen even in small groups (40-50 people in a system. Lag has always been and will always be a part of Eve and we have to get with it and rant for CCP to buy more horsepower. The issue today is a broken post Rev 2 client. We all hope to see a CCP statement about this pretty soon.
Zedz	Posted - 2007.06.27 23:21:00 - [76] agreed
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.06.27 23:22:00 - [77] It would be interesting to know if the other large battles, those currently in the north, experience similar desync problems. From what I know there was heavy fighting during the weekend and also they had not small numbers in their fleets. Any desyncs there or just good old plain lag?
ZenThunder The Raging Armada Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.06.27 23:45:00 - [78] OK - I haven't read the whole thread so somebody may have already stated this. The technology currently DOES NOT EXIST to provide 1000 ship battles that are playable within the current budget of CCP. PERIOD. end of story. Some foolish marketing person with no technical knowledge came up with the number and thought that it would help the product sell. Perhaps if eve lasts long enough they will be able to do it but only perhaps...I am not complaining - the game still rocks.
Self One	Posted - 2007.06.27 23:59:00 - [79] Well, no it seems you have missed the point why there are so many complaints these days. Fix Rev 2 client server issues please.
wardog cave	Posted - 2007.06.28 00:06:00 - [80] Originally by: ZenThunder OK - I haven't read the whole thread so somebody may have already stated this. The technology currently DOES NOT EXIST to provide 1000 ship battles that are playable within the current budget of CCP. PERIOD. end of story. Some foolish marketing person with no technical knowledge came up with the number and thought that it would help the product sell. Perhaps if eve lasts long enough they will be able to do it but only perhaps...I am not complaining - the game still rocks. They should develop actual node clustering.
Chelone	Posted - 2007.06.28 01:15:00 - [81] Originally by: ZenThunder The technology currently DOES NOT EXIST to provide 1000 ship battles that are playable within the current budget of CCP. PERIOD. You can have ship battles in the thousands. The code to implement it would just need to seriously streamline what information is being sent, when, and how. The problem is, we seem to be going in the OPPOSITE DIRECTION. The recent changes have made things WORSE, not better. So the new, inefficient / borked code now makes 100 vs 300 a useless exercise. We used to do better than that... which makes me think it is due to them piling more new features (heat?) on an already overloaded combat system, pardon the pun. Server tasks / cycle: S1.) Read commands from X Clients, implement changes (on/off, destination/speed, etc.) S2.) Calculate interactions in position/damage/effects from NX sources, where N is the number of relevant modules/drones/other sources of interest per player. Could stack geometrically up to (NX)^2, but optimization based on "spheres of influence" of any given module should greatly reduce this problem. S3.) Send the results of up to (NX)^2 effects back to X Clients -- result: up to N^2 X^3 info packets sent. Client tasks / cycle: C1.) Read in up to (NX)^2 info packets from server and update status of X players and their modules accordingly. C2.) Perform as much client-side calculation as possible to reduce server load, without allowing cheating/hacking. C3.) Graphically Render X players and their module effects. C4.) Read and send commands to server. So in this analysis, we actually have a load problem scaling with the CUBE of the number of users, rather than the square. (X users interacting with X users, and results being sent to X users.) Still. Does user 23 really need to know whether user 746's afterburner is activated, or whether he has targeted user 413? Streamlining this is probably the key. I think, with the patch, N has increased with the new features, so now the number of X the server can handle has been reduced, for the same limiting factor of N^2 X^3. If it is a load problem, and not a bug, it would really seem to lie in server steps S2 (calculation) or S3 (transmission.) In any case, if the only solution is a separate "Large Fleet Combat Mode", I'd support it.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.28 02:58:00 - [82] Desync's are a bag of tricks separate to lag and have got nothing to do with server load - they're just shoddy coding. The server should lag and become slowly responsive, but the client should not be losing track of where you are in the game.
Reithan Caldari LEGI0N SOUL CARTEL	Posted - 2007.06.28 03:07:00 - [83] Originally by: MrTripps Off hand I can't think of any game that scales into hundreds of players in one area all that well. Lineage2, as I stated in another thread has client-lag, depending on your system, but in battle of nearly 1000 people in a small area, I've never noticed any server lag.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.28 03:41:00 - [84] Hm, just had a fleet battle. Observations: there was no desync this time. But, the game was unplayable while I was in a fleet - I got about .3 FPS, couldn't click on menus due to the stutter let alone target anything and shoot at it. But! Upon dropping the fleet, my FPS (w/ camera zoomed all the way out) shot up from about .3 FPS to 6-10 FPS. So, to my mind, confirmed - fleets are broken as hell. Add that to the desync thing (which is a separate matter, not necessarily involving low FPS on the client) and I would say trying to fight any type of fleet battle in this game is absurdly broken.
Kalica Kahn GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.28 04:11:00 - [85] Well I just went on my first fleet op since Rev2 was released (which I've loved up until now) Now I've been on huge fleet ops before with 150+ on both sides and yes there was lag, but nothing like what I just experienced. We were sitting on a gate when an enemy fleet warped to us. As soon as they hit the grid my client basically stopped responding. I could hear primaries being called on TS, but I couldn't do ANYTHING. After a couple of mins I think "stuff this" and ctrl-q to relog. But that does nothing. I had to ctrl-alt-del and shut down the client (note this was definitely client lag because the client would respond every min or so) I also checked netlimiter to make sure it wasn't something to do with my connection (there was very little traffic being used by the client) Once I relogged I appeared back in system (in a pod) not in gang and the lag was fine. There's been talk of the fleet system causing client lag for months now, but this was the first time I have actually experienced it myself. The fleet system is an AWESOME idea. But it's seriously... SERIOUSLY broken. And in this instance I'm with Eskalin... I just wanna know what's happening to fix it. There's been a huge focus by CCP on "the need for speed" initiative, and I think this is one area (the fleet system) that could make the biggest most noticable difference. I won't be training to used the heat system (new feature which I think could be cool) until I could actually use it in a fleet system (old feature which seems so broken it's not funny)
Apple Blossom	Posted - 2007.06.28 04:27:00 - [86] Originally by: Chelone Originally by: ZenThunder The technology currently DOES NOT EXIST to provide 1000 ship battles that are playable within the current budget of CCP. PERIOD. You can have ship battles in the thousands. The code to implement it would just need to seriously streamline what information is being sent, when, and how. The problem is, we seem to be going in the OPPOSITE DIRECTION. The recent changes have made things WORSE, not better. So the new, inefficient / borked code now makes 100 vs 300 a useless exercise. We used to do better than that... which makes me think it is due to them piling more new features (heat?) on an already overloaded combat system, pardon the pun. Server tasks / cycle: S1.) Read commands from X Clients, implement changes (on/off, destination/speed, etc.) S2.) Calculate interactions in position/damage/effects from NX sources, where N is the number of relevant modules/drones/other sources of interest per player. Could stack geometrically up to (NX)^2, but optimization based on "spheres of influence" of any given module should greatly reduce this problem. S3.) Send the results of up to (NX)^2 effects back to X Clients -- result: up to N^2 X^3 info packets sent. Client tasks / cycle: C1.) Read in up to (NX)^2 info packets from server and update status of X players and their modules accordingly. C2.) Perform as much client-side calculation as possible to reduce server load, without allowing cheating/hacking. C3.) Graphically Render X players and their module effects. C4.) Read and send commands to server. So in this analysis, we actually have a load problem scaling with the CUBE of the number of users, rather than the square. (X users interacting with X users, and results being sent to X users.) Still. Does user 23 really need to know whether user 746's afterburner is activated, or whether he has targeted user 413? Streamlining this is probably the key. I think, with the patch, N has increased with the new features, so now the number of X the server can handle has been reduced, for the same limiting factor of N^2 X^3. If it is a load problem, and not a bug, it would really seem to lie in server steps S2 (calculation) or S3 (transmission.) In any case, if the only solution is a separate "Large Fleet Combat Mode", I'd support it. This is serious back of the envelope stuff, but I like this analysis, so lets plug in some numbers: Number of players: 100 (50 vs 50) Avr Number of 'relevant' player information required by other players: 10 (speed, direction, shields, armour, structure, some modules...) 10^2 * 100^3 = 100,000,000 'packets' sent/received/processed by the server to update game state (call each update a 'frame'). Lets assume 10 bytes per 'packet' = 1,000,000,000 bytes per update = 1GB. So a node with a 50 vs 50 battle has to send and process in the order of 1GB of information per 'frame'. 250 vs 250 this becomes 10^2 * 250^3 * 10 = 12,500,000,000 = 12.5GB of information per frame. 500 vs 500 = 100GB per frame I'm sure these numbers are out by several orders of magnitude, but maybe they give some indication of the scale of the programming challenge.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.28 04:40:00 - [87] Edited by: James Duar on 28/06/2007 04:40:06 10 bytes per packet insane. The largest number you would use - a double floating point, is going to be 8 bytes large. Speed does not require double precision floats, so it's going to be 4 bytes max. I would wager they only actually need to send 2 for it. So that's 20 bytes total for all your outgoing info. EDIT: And the server isn't updating on a per frame basis for the clients or at least, the clients shouldn't be looking for information that way.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.28 04:56:00 - [88] yeah yeah, bob is great, yeah yeah, bob is good, yeah yeah, yeah yeah yeah, what if bob was one of us, just a bear like one of us, just a corp in curse, trying to make 0.0 home Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink. Nerfageddon!
Richard Aiel Caldari MicroFunks	Posted - 2007.06.28 05:16:00 - [89] Apparenyly its easier for CCP to just igore the rest of us... the world IS coming to an end... a BoB thats angry they cant get a fair fight... All the rest of em seem to like it... Just go to the 6T3 thread and count the smacktalking BoBs. THEY seem not to think theres a problem Irony: Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true
Chelone	Posted - 2007.06.28 05:43:00 - [90] Originally by: Apple Blossom This is serious back of the envelope stuff, but I like this analysis, so lets plug in some numbers: Number of players: (50 vs 50) 10^2 * 100^3 = 100,000,000 'packets' Lets assume 10 bytes per 'packet' = 1,000,000,000 bytes per update = 1GB. 250 vs 250 this becomes 10^2 * 250^3 * 10 = 12,500,000,000 = 12.5GB of information per frame. 500 vs 500 = 100GB per frame Err. Actually you did the first "correctly", using X = 100 for 50 vs 50... but for 250 vs 250, X should be 500: N = 10, X = 500, Bytes = 10^2 * 500^3 * 10 = 125GB/cycle and for 500 vs 500, X = 1000: N = 10, X = 1000, Bytes = 10^2 * 1000^3 * 10 = 1TB/cycle Showing the result of the scaling-by-cube model. That said, I certainly hope those numbers aren't right, i.e. "back of the envelope." As James Duar said, they hopefully shouldn't need 10 bytes for most of the pieces of info. Also, as I said earlier, hopefully they are optimizing to not send out all possible pieces of info to all players. If the server had to do a terabyte for 1000 people, there wouldn't be too much hope of reasonable update-rates for such a battle. As for Lineage 2, I doubt a Dark Elf has 24 possible slots, drones, gang bonuses etc etc. So while the X^3 factor would still seem to apply, the N^2 would be greatly reduced.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.28 06:07:00 - [91] Originally by: Chelone As for Lineage 2, I doubt a Dark Elf has 24 possible slots, drones, gang bonuses etc etc. So while the X^3 factor would still seem to apply, the N^2 would be greatly reduced. That's half the problem though, there is way too much granularity where it isn't needed on a lot of those settings. Fleet lag seems largely associated with the system constantly rechecking all the bonus' for some reason when people decloak/are in a fight etc.
Toffles GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.28 06:14:00 - [92] I can remember back a year ago when fleet battles in the range of 100 vs 100 worked just fine, you only had to deal with a few seconds of module lag. The outcome of the battle was "fair". These days battles of that size or smaller seem to be decided based on which fleet is able to load their grids or avoid desynch the most and then gank the lagged out enemies. I don't know what else can be done about this issue. CCP has heard the players and is always talking about fixes, optimizations, need for speed, and all that. It appears to be a priority for them, but we've seen no improvements, just new problems on top of ever-worsening lag. Lets see some results already.
Eskalin Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.28 07:10:00 - [93] Originally by: Tortun Nahme yeah yeah, bob is great, yeah yeah, bob is good, yeah yeah, yeah yeah yeah, what if bob was one of us, just a bear like one of us, just a corp in curse, trying to make 0.0 home take that crap to caod it's not constructive Originally by: Richard Aiel Apparenyly its easier for CCP to just igore the rest of us... the world IS coming to an end... a BoB thats angry they cant get a fair fight... All the rest of em seem to like it... Just go to the 6T3 thread and count the smacktalking BoBs. THEY seem not to think theres a problem this aint about politics no one in bob is happy about onesided fights why do you think we jump in when were outnumbered. we want the uber fleet battles. dont make this another caod cesspit plz there is enough of that already If babies were not meant to be eaten then they wouldn't be hibachi sized.
Black Jumper Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.06.28 08:02:00 - [94] /agreed one more time. Bumping this thread so we are remembered by CCP : when will your game be fixed so we can enjoy lagged but playable fleet battles ?
Andrei Vassaliev Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.06.28 08:31:00 - [95] Originally by: Eskalin this aint about politics no one in bob is happy about onesided fights why do you think we jump in when were outnumbered. we want the uber fleet battles. dont make this another caod cesspit plz there is enough of that already You're right. It's not players, but customers, who are speaking here. There is no roleplay, or politics here. We are talking about fleet combats technical issues. These desync problems contradict CCP's advertising campaigns about fleet combats. We don't have what we pay for. And imho,as a customer, it's unacceptable.
Tivookz Caldari Reprocity Pure.	Posted - 2007.06.28 08:49:00 - [96] Indeed, I have played tons of mmo's, dark age of camelot for example and even then 300 ppl at once was only a client side FPS problem. That was 4 years ago. Tiv
Pesadel0 Ordem dos Templarios Te-Ka	Posted - 2007.06.28 09:08:00 - [97] Agreed ,something is wrong when we ear that someone "won" because he didn't desynced/laged the most. I was sworn to absolute secrecy BY CCP.
Shadows	Posted - 2007.06.28 09:08:00 - [98] I agree that this problem is ruining the effort of hundreds playing with the rules and trying to make the game more interesting in their own way. Fleet battle is the most differenciating (sp?) aspect of eve compared to some of the other mmo's out there, in other games like wow you have a limitation to the battlegrounds and you couldn't imagine fights with more than 100 persons when in eve it's what we crave for when we attack and defend positions in 0.0 and nowadays, appar from small roaming gangs, whenever you warp into a fleet size battle, either you sync out and die or the other one does and you can destroy him as if he was afk. no challenge at all, we might as well not warp in, flip coins and self destruct when the other one has it his way, would be as effective, accurate and certainly less frustrating. There's no fun being a sitting duck and there's even less fun shooting down someone who simply isn't here. This really need fixing or one of the major aspects of this game will be lost and probably a bunch of subscriptions too.
Ambre Blanche ICE is Coming to EVE Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.06.28 09:52:00 - [99] After the disaster of 6T3 the day before yesterday, I finally got killed yesterday evening because of the same problem: EVE client going on strike just when we started to fight. I never have had any chance to see who killed me. Population on local was very reasonable (less than a hundred), BoB jumped about 50 people very conventionnaly through a stargate and then, I could have as well just suicided myself... This game sucks at the moment and I am rather tired of CCP bull**** :( Ambre.
Heidi Engineswat	Posted - 2007.06.28 10:00:00 - [100] Originally by: Gnulpie To fix a problem one needs to understand it first. I am far from understanding the desync problem. Lag...okay, that I know and that I understand how it happens. But desync? What is that? How can it happen. And don't say now 'the server processes different data than the client'. How could that ever happen?? Aren't the protocols reliable? I mean...seriously, what exactly is a desync and when does it happen? Before people talk about things which they don't know (and unless they are a dev and know the code it is just guesswork) they should wait for some dev to explain it, or not. Personally I believe (mind you, not know but believe) that the lag in large fleet battles is caused by suboptimal algorithms with polynomial runtime behaviour, maybe quadratic. If that could be changed to linear or n*log n then many problems might disappear automatically. But that is all guesswork only here. In any case, some blog about this with details would be really interesting and might appease the masses This is all fine and all, and we can debate the lag in, on average, 5 threads a day (of which many get locked), but what we WANT is a reaction by CCP on what is going on, and how they intend do do something about it. Reply to your customers please CCP, we pay for your salary, and would very much like a response. And please, make it something better than: we are aware of lag. we are busy fixing it. This is 2007: transparancy is all the rage dontcha know. PLEEAAAAAAAASEEEEE, PRETTY PLEAAAAAAASE WITH SUGAR ON TOP: REPLYYYYYYYYY.
vildmand	Posted - 2007.06.28 10:07:00 - [101] I'm quite new to the game and I'm still a fleetbattle virgin But with all the topics about lag and so on, I'm really not looking forward to fleet battle. I thought battles as a whole was what I should look forward to but it dosent seem to be any fun with all that lag, it sounds like its quite random who wins a fleet battle and has nothing to do with the players, tactics or ships. I like the game and I'm still so young I can find other things to do and have fun. But at some point I would like to participate (is that spelled right?) I'm just afraid the lag issues are gonna take away my motivation for playing this game. So as a new player I would really like to see somekind of acknowledge of the problems from CCP's side. Otherwise its like playing a game just to find out what you where looking forward to quite frankly sucks.
Morris Falter The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.06.28 10:18:00 - [102] Edited by: Morris Falter on 28/06/2007 10:19:35 This is really coming up a lot at the moment. This is as much as I know about reducing client-side lag (graphical): 1. Reduce Colour depth to as low as it can get. 2. Turn off dithering 3. Turn off depth buffer 4. Turn off sounds 5. Turn off effects (ctrl+alt+shift+e) 6. Turn off turret effects (ctrl+alt+shift+t) 7. Minimize or close any irrelevant chat windows (preferably close) 8. Make any remaining windows transparent (the little circle on the top right) 9. If you are jumping into a system, minimize overview until you have loaded (hopefully will take less than 30s... ^^) and ZOOM OUT :D 10. Reduce resolution to the minimum you're comfortable with and run fullscreen. (I generally just leave it at 1280x1024, with these other things it seems to be ok..) Apart from this, not sure what else can be done - I'm assuming you're all not running stuff like MSN in the background - thats for afterwards shurely (hoho) - or leaving like.. .net or photoshop open, or whatever. And for the record - the really bad lag seems to be when caps are involved, so something is definitely up there. edit: if you want to see your FPS its ctrl+f - but watch out, as the monitor has a FPS hit itself, so don't leave it running..
Laah T'Sin	Posted - 2007.06.28 10:20:00 - [103] I'm in total and absolut agreement with the OP. I was flying in a 90 man gang yesterday (only flying around not actually fighting!) and the lag was simply horrific. Please CCP please please please PLEASE do something... ANYTHING no matter how long it takes no matter what it costs.. cancel walking on stations, cancel new graphics engine whatever... but please PLEASE give us a a lag free game. It's just no fun to play like this.. and no you can't have my stuff so stfu.. i don't want to change games i want the devs to do their jobs... namly fixing their game before cluttering it up with new features!
Garek COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.06.28 10:21:00 - [104] Hey, first of all I have to agree with the actual problems of Eve. Combat Tactics are impossible to do if you are not able to move fast and do the things right. This is for every player in any alliance the same problem. I can tell you I have lost many ships due to lag, desynch and abuse of the game. I think I lost few in real combat. Devs should be talking with other MMO organisations to try to make the best of it. I have played WoW, Planetside and other MMO's. WOW cannot be compared to EVE as wow is instance based except for the large PVP battles infront of Ironforge and Orgrimar. When this happend on WoW the server lagged too, and battles where 300 against 300 so no worries. I think Planetside would be a better source of information. There are battles than can run from 250 against 250 against 250 in the same grid without any lag or desync and guns firing from eveyside with all kind of aircav, tanks, infantry, cloacked etc etc. Sharing information is good. Call SOE for some help; admitting you can't solve it on your own is not a defeat, doing nothing about it it your loss and ours too... Because I love this game. And for the rest you are doing fantastic work CCP ---------------------------------------------- Nothing...
Cpt Branko Guardian Heroes	Posted - 2007.06.28 10:24:00 - [105] Originally by: Captain Powers This is a harp I'm going to be playing. CCP has created a nice concept with Eve. Problem is that game play is getting better. It goes through cycles where it gets better but it continues to obtain new lows in the ability to play, as players flock in even greater numbers to overcrowded systems. I complain in hopes that it will get better since I'm paying money for something that might getter better (might getter better? er, what?). IMHO, CCP should make Jita 0.0. If they have created a product that should handle fleet battles of 100's of players ( please, stop laughing ), and there are more players in Jita then in most fleet battles and they still complain, somethig is wrong. Really, even if the server can handle 2000 people in a system, there will be 20.000 in Jita alone.. Eye candy is nice but if players are waiting 15 minutes to log on, 40 seconds to reload a 10 second ammo load whine in Jita or a huge fleet battle, etc, CCP and pure lack of common sense are wasting the payers ( I spelled it correctly ) time. Best thing would be to get a reality check before thinking that you know the solution for lag, environmental pollution and world peace at the same time, and make Jita 0.0 to remove 50% of forum posts on lag. But if players don't understand that it's not possible to have an unlimited amount of players in one system, they'll flock to another one and cause lag there, and them moan about it, while probably knowing that in any massive online game, a 100% lag free environment is impossible.. There, fixed it for you. Anyway, stop the whinage. First off, it's getting better, and you can't deny that. Second, most of the lag whine posts come from the Jita crowd. Make Jita 0.0! Third, the whiners could at least be so nice not to pretend they know computer science and programming better then CCP programmers, especially in situations where you can see they're talking out of their arse. Fourth, put all the posts relating a topic IN one topic, so you don't spam all of general discussion with it. Fifth, no MMO is, nor will be 100% lag free in all cirrumstances. Is that SO hard to understand? It can just have less lag, but it'll always have some lag.
Vactet Immortalis Silens FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.28 10:29:00 - [106] Rawr. CCP...Quit petting the pony's no-no spot and do what you promised us. We want fleet battles. Fleets...are BIG...no no..HUGE. /signed.. o/ Esk. Someone needs to do some serious motivation training on CCP these days it seems..anyone got a cattleprod? Delivering the kick to the jaw of society to stop it from drooling on itself like the ignorant slop it is since 1984. Originally by: CCP Sharkbait we are screwed.
Laah T'Sin	Posted - 2007.06.28 10:35:00 - [107] Quote: First off, it's getting better, and you can't deny that. What a load of rubish.. sry but really mate. It is NOT getting better! It is getting worse and worse with every patch and it's all just talk from CCP... Need for Speed this and that... all a load of rubish. Quote: Second, most of the lag whine posts come from the Jita crowd. Make Jita 0.0! Also a heap of rubish... i don't really give a **** if jita is lagging (of course it sucks and it's a huge embaressment for CCP imo but it's unimportant). I simply want to be able to fly in a 90 man gang without lagging up so bad all the time and taking ages for every session change etc.etc. And most ppl that posted here are not exactly ppl that sit around in jita all day. In a nutshell i want EVE and not some lagfest i have to pay money for!
Enraku Reynolt Minmatar Phoenix Division FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2007.06.28 11:19:00 - [108] Originally by: Tivookz Look, I'm not saying fix it TODAY like the average WoW noob would say. I know it takes time, all I am saying is, do whatever it takes but fix it asap no matter if it takes a month of half a year. All other plans should be lower on the prio list. I thik he'sasking that we at least hear things every now and then stating how work is being done oppsed to (5% more battle damage effects!!) ------------------------------------------------ Do not let the world change you. Change the world Here's everything I know about war: somebody wins, somebody loses, and nothing is ever the same
Whalesaver mega mining corporation Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.28 11:25:00 - [109] There, fixed it for you. Anyway, stop the whinage. First off, it's getting better, and you can't deny that. Second, most of the lag whine posts come from the Jita crowd. Make Jita 0.0! Third, the whiners could at least be so nice not to pretend they know computer science and programming better then CCP programmers, especially in situations where you can see they're talking out of their arse. Fourth, put all the posts relating a topic IN one topic, so you don't spam all of general discussion with it. Fifth, no MMO is, nor will be 100% lag free in all cirrumstances. Is that SO hard to understand? It can just have less lag, but it'll always have some lag. Addition: Learn software engineering before you say "stop adding new content, fix this or that". Throwing people who're working on project X (like walking in stations) to project Y (solving lag) will most likely actually delay project Y for a while instead of making it faster, and will not make it linearly faster even in the long run, not to mention people on project X may actually be specialised in different things and therefore useless in project Y. Getting better? I am assuming you do not partake in fleet battles, as I can guarantee anyone who does will confirm that the lag issues are not getting better, quite the opposite. The reason people are spamming topics like this is that people are looking for a dev response, and acknowledgement that lag is NOT getting better, despite the need for speed initiative. With regards to your final point, yes if you wish to be pedantic, the people working on walking in station are unlikely to have the correct skill set to be shifted onto recoding to improve the lag situation, but the point is more general, why invest so much resource in including new content when a key aspect of the game is problematic? ----------------------- Doesn't shoot first Will ask questions later And enjoys a nice cup of tea
Amerame Section XIII	Posted - 2007.06.28 11:28:00 - [110] Right now I'm upset they've been working on a new 3d engine (can I get a wireframe version for fleet battle plz?) when they should have worked on a new combat engine. Tweaking on the current engine has done no good for 4 years, it's time to rewrite that ****, isn't ?
Bosjathfort Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.06.28 11:35:00 - [111] I guess: It seems that EVE is programmed on a static system. For example I assume there is a server group which consists of 64 CPU cores for hosting the entire EVE universe, and the EVE universe is divided into 8 divisions. So I assume CCP assigns 8 CPU cores for each division at the beginning. After every downtime, the EVE hosting server might produce a statistic sheet with the average amount of pilots per division during the passed 23 hours. Based on that statistic sheet, CCP will re-organize the process power ômanuallyö a bit, e.g. reduce 1 CPU from division1 and add it to division2 etc. However, we (players) move almost all the time, jumping around from one system to another. When you gather up a fleet of 300 players and entering anther division which has 500 players already, the process power assigned to that division is obviously not enough to handle 800 players, therefore you have this ôlagö issue. Currently, it seems that there is only one way to relocate the process power, and it requires to shutdown the server first (DT / node crash). CCP employees will have to relocate the process power manually, which is why I said EVE is programmed on a static system. There are two possible solutions that I can imagine: 1: Re-program EVE base on a dynamic system, which means that the process power will be relocated automatically without reboot / shutdown the server up on needs. 2: We as customers will have to donate a lot of RL money to CCP, so they will be able to buy another 10000000 hamsters and cages. \\(^O^ )// o/ \o !!null

Eldo Davip Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.06.28 11:39:00 - [112] I play Eve too and i get ***ed when i lag out too. I've lost more ships to lag than any other form. But, there is an existing thread on the topic. Please continue discussion there. Thread Locked click* ___ Questions/Complaints/Opinions/Bree \| Forum Rules

Cpt Branko Guardian Heroes	Posted - 2007.06.28 11:48:00 - [113] Well, things for some reason got significantly smoother for me since Rev II patch, and significantly smoother since I joined the game, but I mostly live in low-sec and ocasionally venture in high-sec. So, no fleet battles or huge blobs there. At any rate, it used to be much worse with 200ish people in system then it is now. However, the numbers in the popular mission/trade hubs are just increasing over time. Most of the complaints, if you read general discussion more often, mention Jita in them. The one I quoted does, as well. That's what irks me to no end. The other kind of complaint, which is about "do this to improve lag", "you're doing this and this wrong" irks me even more. I do (high-performance) distributed programming for a living, so I do have an idea about the massive complexity of creating, mantaining and fixing a massive system that EVE is. There are no textbook solutions to lag in a massive online game of this scale. Throwing more money and more people at the problem sometimes helps (sometimes it doesn't), but it's not the solution. It's not digging trenches, where more people = more stuff dug out. Finally, saying "remove any lag before you do anything else" is like saying "make Windows error-free and virus-safe before adding new content" to Microsoft. Not only that nobody is going to listen, but it's also both impossible and would be a bad business decision.

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