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Stop letting people use Local as an intell means

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Lastdon	Posted - 2007.06.28 05:41:00 - [1] My suggestion is to allow people to talk in local but do away with the function that brings up peoples portraits. So you can't use the local chat as a way to see who is in the system unless they are chatting. This also truly allows Stealth ships to stealth in undetected unless they are spotted by a detection means. This also gives scanners another purpose they would work like RADAR, it would force people to have to scan the system they're in or deploy some sort of detection probe. You could even expand Local chat for low sec to the constellation. You really need to do away with OMG ther're Neuts in the system or Hostiles by just clicking the chat button. IT SHOULD BE A CHAT BUTTON NOT A INTELL FUNCTION.
Securion Wolfheart Caldari Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.06.28 09:51:00 - [2] /Signed ... again... This topic have already been up you know...? Local is the most lame-ass feature of this game. It really ruins the whole "im in space, sneaking around"-feeling. What is this, WoW? -----====----- Whether we bring our enemies to justice or bring justice to our enemies, justice will be done.
Securion Wolfheart Caldari Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.06.28 09:53:00 - [3] Why not make everyone who has a cloaking device not showing up in Local? Must be pretty easy to fix...? -----====----- Whether we bring our enemies to justice or bring justice to our enemies, justice will be done.
Max Godsnottlingson Amarr Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2007.06.28 10:54:00 - [4] /Signed Until recently I wopuld not have agreed with this, seeing as I am one of the guys who is the main target for player pirates and all. But the past couple of weeks my Corp has been trying to catch and kill an isk farmer, and I've found out how frustrating it is jump into system and know he already SSing, cloaking or logging. And it's not a one way thing, this can be used against player pirates too, as they would never be sure of how many are in local
Tzesaeia	Posted - 2007.06.28 13:30:00 - [5] /signed This would allow chat and allow everyone to travel hidden. If we want space to in eve to feel huge and vast it is upper most important that we feel alone out there sometimes. CCP Change this plz in the Patch for probes!!! But I don't think only cloaks should be hidden that would give a too big advantage to cloaks so after a time every ship would have one. In consequence the whole balance would change since having more highslots/CPU will become upper most important for the quality of a ship. But great an simple Idea I want this!
Thor Xian EarthForce E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.06.28 14:55:00 - [6] Originally by: Securion Wolfheart /Signed ... again... This topic have already been up you know...? Local is the most lame-ass feature of this game. It really ruins the whole "im in space, sneaking around"-feeling. What is this, WoW? Well in WoW the enemy players dont show up in channels or on /who, so in that respect, Eve is more carebear. ________________________________________ ~Fleet Admiral Thor Xian, Strategic Commander Meet the Overlord
Medea Nephtys Herrscher der Zeit	Posted - 2007.06.28 14:59:00 - [7] /signed Fix the local chat bug. g
Angelus Xenotov	Posted - 2007.06.28 17:37:00 - [8] /not Signed Local makes low-sec and 0.0 less intimidating, without it most people would just either not go out there or go out there with as many ships possible (Blobbing). And besides, killing local is like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Torothanax	Posted - 2007.06.28 18:03:00 - [9] Edited by: Torothanax on 28/06/2007 18:02:58 using local as an intel device is pretty lame. Players should however be able to contact the jump gates to request jump logs, unless the gate is hostile.
Thor Xian EarthForce E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.06.28 19:10:00 - [10] Local should be like the Alliance channel. As for local making low sec and 0.0 less intimidating, bull****. That would be the assinine stargate mechanic that leads to camping. That and most gate camps turn the map a bright yellow is a huge indicator. ________________________________________ ~Fleet Admiral Thor Xian, Strategic Commander Meet the Overlord
Donathan Slade Kay Korporation Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.06.28 21:05:00 - [11] Originally by: Securion Wolfheart Why not make everyone who has a cloaking device not showing up in Local? Must be pretty easy to fix...? lol, no. It just looks for who is in the local channel, it doesn't look for who is in the system. You just get added to the local channel when you change systems and change. They would have to change the channel system for this to work. Because you have to be in the channel to see and post. So, the only option there would be allowed to leave local, and thats just stupid because then you have no idea how many people are in system like Jita to know why its lagging so bad.
Trajan Hess	Posted - 2007.06.28 21:39:00 - [12] I can see something like local being a staple of civilized, empire space. Hundreds of satellites monitoring who¦s where, what¦s going on etc. Empire Space should IMO have a pretty heavy Big Brother feel to it. A useful feature of this all-encompassing surveillance system is that every pod pilot gets access to Local, a place to communicate and network. Ever wonder why CONCORD arrives so quickly at the scene of a crime? That¦s because they constantly monitor exactly where each and every independent pod pilot is located, what he is doing, the status of his ship etc. No interstellar empire worth it¦s salt wouldn¦t. I do think that there should be an option to shut off local and remove yourself from it. But in order to discourage people from doing so, there needs to be a downside. How about this one: If you have left local, and thus removed yourself from "the matrix" so to speak, CONCORD doesn¦t know where you are or if you are under attack. Thus you can get podded in hi-sec. You chose to go off the grid and shut the rest of the community out, to hide yourself from your peers. That should balance things out in Empire. It would also make low sec more scary, but the map features are also good indicators of trouble spots so it shouldn¦t be that bad.
TimMc The Caldari Confederation	Posted - 2007.06.28 21:49:00 - [13] Originally by: Angelus Xenotov /not Signed Local makes low-sec and 0.0 less intimidating, without it most people would just either not go out there or go out there with as many ships possible (Blobbing). And besides, killing local is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. You don't need local for that, just look at map statistics for kills in last hour to avoid gatecamps... unless your the first kill. I've said this so many times, but local should only list people who have talked in last 5 minutes. /signed
Idami Raptor	Posted - 2007.06.28 23:16:00 - [14] Big problem with this. Quite simply local is the ONLY way right now to tell when there's hostiles in a system before they're on top of you. Loss of this ability in 0.0 would dramatically reduce the ability to rat or mine(you wouldn't know the hostiles were there till you were dead), and also reduce the ability to tell when one of your systems is under attack. Besides, a 100 ship fleet being able to sneak in undetected is absurd. In short, there is no way in deepest depths of hell we can afford to lose this capability. If you add a way to dissappear from local, you also need to add a way to replace that intel functionality with something else. The new system scanners you get at Sov 2 come close, but as you actually have to be at the scanner to use it, it's not quite there. The only other option is what people have been screaming for forever, player planetable gate defenses. Also remember that 0.0 is far less safe than Empire. it's much harder for someone to hide when most systems don't have stations, and there's nothing stopping people from just killing you. A better option would be to fix the exploits that result from knowing when people come in. Make it so cloaks on normal ships don't make you mister unfindable(as CCP has already stated they intend to do somehow) and make the logoffski(especially the repeat logoffski) ineffective. Safespots are already vulnerable to probing. Without the ability to use that intel to make yourself invulnerable in any situation, then most of the problems with it go away. In 0.0, you'd need a station or POS in system to be able to hide effectively...in short, you'd only be anywhere close to safe in an area you had at least a toehold in. But making it that difficult to detect incoming fleets or ganker gangs would absolutely hamstring 0.0. Especially with only 14 AU scanners. As I said, without some changes in the detection system you'd be dead before you knew the hostiles were there no matter what you did.
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.28 23:30:00 - [15] Originally by: Idami Raptor Big problem with this. Quite simply local is the ONLY way right now to tell when there's hostiles in a system before they're on top of you. Loss of this ability in 0.0 would dramatically reduce the ability to rat or mine(you wouldn't know the hostiles were there till you were dead), and also reduce the ability to tell when one of your systems is under attack. Besides, a 100 ship fleet being able to sneak in undetected is absurd. In short, there is no way in deepest depths of hell we can afford to lose this capability. If you add a way to dissappear from local, you also need to add a way to replace that intel functionality with something else. The new system scanners you get at Sov 2 come close, but as you actually have to be at the scanner to use it, it's not quite there. The only other option is what people have been screaming for forever, player planetable gate defenses. Also remember that 0.0 is far less safe than Empire. it's much harder for someone to hide when most systems don't have stations, and there's nothing stopping people from just killing you. A better option would be to fix the exploits that result from knowing when people come in. Make it so cloaks on normal ships don't make you mister unfindable(as CCP has already stated they intend to do somehow) and make the logoffski(especially the repeat logoffski) ineffective. Safespots are already vulnerable to probing. Without the ability to use that intel to make yourself invulnerable in any situation, then most of the problems with it go away. In 0.0, you'd need a station or POS in system to be able to hide effectively...in short, you'd only be anywhere close to safe in an area you had at least a toehold in. But making it that difficult to detect incoming fleets or ganker gangs would absolutely hamstring 0.0. Especially with only 14 AU scanners. As I said, without some changes in the detection system you'd be dead before you knew the hostiles were there no matter what you did. Correct. Although removing/altering local would enhance certain aspects of the game, it would make others almost unplayable. CCP has put alot of work into 0.0 empire building, and i dont think that they intend to **** that all away in favor of changing local. I believe that the main issue is the ability for players to hide once they see you in local. Cloaking/logoffski needs to be addressed first & foremost. Why do you need to hide when they cant Critical hits boost Amarr damage
Lastdon	Posted - 2007.06.29 20:25:00 - [16] Originally by: Angelus Xenotov /not Signed Local makes low-sec and 0.0 less intimidating, without it most people would just either not go out there or go out there with as many ships possible (Blobbing). And besides, killing local is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Thats a one way street it only makes things less intimidating for those already in the system. For new comers who want to go out and explore they don't have to worry about Local giving them away to pirates that they're in that system. Also I didn't say kill local just do away with the portraits side of it so the only way to see some one who is in the system is to use detection features built into the game. Example probing scanning.
Frecator Dementa Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.29 20:31:00 - [17] /not signed local is pretty much the only reliable means of getting a warning before a roaming gang tears you apart. to remove it would mean the END of every solo or small gang ratting/mining op ----------------------- forum ate my post again
Lastdon	Posted - 2007.06.29 20:37:00 - [18] This should just be the begining of the exploration side, eventually CCP should look into doing away with bringing up the map and seeeing every system in the universe. I think thats lame you should be forced to discover .0 systems and routes by a means of discovering gates to systems. And this could open up a trade market for maps. Think about it its space why would you know every route and and system in the vast universe. This could put a whole new spin on things.
Divideby0 Gallente Amalgamated Industries	Posted - 2007.06.29 20:51:00 - [19] I've seen a lot of whining about showing up in local when you don't want to and I still don't see the big deal. Systems are BIG. If you wanna hide, learn to use bookmarks and keep moving. The benefits of traveling in numbers in low-sec far outweigh the inconvenience of being "noticed". Moving that large group undetected shouldn't be made easy. From a role playing perspective, I see LOCAL as a log of ships coming into and out of a system, not an actual detection of them. You go through a gate, you get logged into LOCAL comm network regardless of your ship. When you jump out, the local gate system logs you out. Likewise ships that cyno in would also get logged because the cyno would show up as a spike on the gate system scanners. You would get logged as they scan your arrival grid. Who is the bigger carebear: The miner who braves low-sec on his own...or the chump who attacks an unarmed ship?
Lastdon	Posted - 2007.06.29 21:02:00 - [20] Originally by: Frecator Dementa /not signed local is pretty much the only reliable means of getting a warning before a roaming gang tears you apart. to remove it would mean the END of every solo or small gang ratting/mining op Once again they can't see who is in that system either. So that forces them to search for people as well, and if they find you you can always warp out and even switch systems. they wouldn't know what happened to you since they can't use local as intell either.
Medea Nephtys Herrscher der Zeit	Posted - 2007.06.29 21:05:00 - [21] Originally by: Lastdon Think about it its space why would you know every route and and system in the vast universe. Because all reachable systems are already explored by one of the four (five) empires... why else would there be jump-gates (buildings of HUMANS!).
Lastdon	Posted - 2007.06.29 21:37:00 - [22] Originally by: Medea Nephtys Originally by: Lastdon Think about it its space why would you know every route and and system in the vast universe. Because all reachable systems are already explored by one of the four (five) empires... why else would there be jump-gates (buildings of HUMANS!). So your saying that these empires that suposly are at each other throats shared every system that they explored and put in a jump gate? Why let your enemys know every system that you have discovered? In case not every empire would know every other empires discovered systems
John Ahriman Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.30 00:26:00 - [23] Edited by: John Ahriman on 30/06/2007 00:25:12 It's pretty simple. Local should like a radio network. Nobody knows you're there until you transmit. Therefore, you don't show up in local until you say something in local. Easy.
Frecator Dementa Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.30 00:52:00 - [24] Originally by: Lastdon Originally by: Frecator Dementa /not signed local is pretty much the only reliable means of getting a warning before a roaming gang tears you apart. to remove it would mean the END of every solo or small gang ratting/mining op Once again they can't see who is in that system either. So that forces them to search for people as well, and if they find you you can always warp out and even switch systems. they wouldn't know what happened to you since they can't use local as intell either. miners and ratters are always in belts. pirates can quickly scan for mining ships mining ships however will have to keep their scanners open and click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click the scan button every 5 seconds to see if there's anybody in the system.... VERY bad idea ----------------------- forum ate my post again
Davos Breemer	Posted - 2007.06.30 01:29:00 - [25] Originally by: Frecator Dementa local is pretty much the only reliable means of getting a warning before a roaming gang tears you apart. to remove it would mean the END of every solo or small gang ratting/mining op If someone stealth's up on you you're not really supposed to get a warning unless you have the gear to detect cloaked ships. And also to be using that gear. I support the OP's idea. I have the icons panel in all my chat windows turned off anyway (they take up far too much screen real estate) and I've never used local chat for anything (this may change at some point). And - yes, you will find me in lowsec.
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.30 02:03:00 - [26] Originally by: Lastdon Originally by: Frecator Dementa /not signed local is pretty much the only reliable means of getting a warning before a roaming gang tears you apart. to remove it would mean the END of every solo or small gang ratting/mining op Once again they can't see who is in that system either. So that forces them to search for people as well, and if they find you you can always warp out and even switch systems. they wouldn't know what happened to you since they can't use local as intell either. Local as it exists now is symmetrical. You learn exactly as much as your target/attacker does. Scanning is asymmetrical and favors the attacker. He scans once (and can scan cloaked) to find his prey while Joe Q Miningbarge spams the scan button for hours at a time, giving the hamsters a real workout. Joe Q Miningbarge also doesn't know if that vagabond on his scanner is friend or foe. Removing local is fine if you don't mine or npc for cash. If you practice either of these activities regularly, though, you're just asking to get ganked if you don't have a 30 second warning for hostiles. This will make 0.0/low sec less profitable and lead more people back to empire. Nerfing the ability to cloak/ss/log with invulnerability will get rid of many of the problems associated with local without nerfing 0.0/low sec. _____ Heat Warfare
Davos Breemer	Posted - 2007.06.30 02:24:00 - [27] Originally by: TimMc You don't need local for that, just look at map statistics for kills in last hour to avoid gatecamps... unless your the first kill. I've got to ask - where are these map statistics that you speak of?
Lastdon	Posted - 2007.06.30 02:42:00 - [28] I would rather keep the scanning/probing part to another post but since that seems to be the only dispute here. Well maybe this would cause you to bring other role ships with you such as an Recon ship or something of that matter. Could easly make a probe that periodically pings the desired area every so often. Only allow peoples scanner to be used based off their skill level. For instance your ship signature should determine how soon your detected, the bigger the signature the sooner you get spotted. Your strength on your scanner should be limited thou, so you can't jump in some where and scan the whole system. So lets say you're in a frigate you should be able to get closer then a crusier which should be able to get closer then an BS ex.... and of course stealth would do exactly that allow you to stealth in extremly close with out detction. So if a whole fleet jumps in the signature from all those caps or a decent size gang would " Light up your RADAR". They could even implement a module that detects scanning so you can see when your getting scanned.
Lastdon	Posted - 2007.06.30 02:47:00 - [29] miners and ratters are always in belts. pirates can quickly scan for mining ships mining ships however will have to keep their scanners open and click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click the scan button every 5 seconds to see if there's anybody in the system.... VERY bad idea LoL So pretty much the only thing you have to say is leave my Carebear ability alone. If need be warp is always your friend !!!!!!!
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.30 03:24:00 - [30] If the scanner had a bit more range and gave a FOF indicator of the scanned ship I wouldn't have a problem with removing local, though there'd be huge network load issues. If you don't give residents a remote FOF tool then attackers have a huge advantage with the removal of local. Currently this is balanced (symmetric info), but if local is removed then attackers can detect hostiles while residents can't (without cloaked alts on the gates) because for the attacker every ship on the scanner is a hostile, while for the resident most are not. _____ Heat Warfare

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