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Col Kaos	Posted - 2007.07.05 10:45:00 - [1] Several issues have forced me to start this topic and many ppl feel the same as I do with reference to the following issues. In the main, I feel that EVE has not got the balance right with regards to their gameplay. Here are the reasons: 1. Scanning into deadspace missions. This has become so easy any noob with a scan probe can find a player deadspace mission with total ease and in minutes (and I thought this had been made more difficult?). Once locked down, swarms of pirates set up for PvP head in and start killing players at will, who can do absolutely nothing about it but sit and watch their ships go pop. Is this how CCP envisioned PvP within EVE? If so, then it sucks. If I am soloing a level 4 mission my ship is set up for tanking, not PvP. One stab and that's my targetting range gone, which is yet another ridiculous/ pointless feature CCP have put in to enhance PvP and stuff up the rest of the game for others. Deadspace scanning is not a challenge at all. 2. Missions and loyalty points. Missions are fast becoming pointless endeavours, as the level 4s have become easier (therefore, less money involved), players get scanned out so easily and the standing increase you now receive is so minimal more junior players would just give up after getting no-where doing hundreds of missions and barely getting onto the next agent. Loyalty points are now also a completely pointless pursuit. After a few missions you can get just about anything on the new loyalty system and the entire market is flooded with items that had some value in the past. Nowadays, I'm not even worried about losing all my +4 implants as I could get them back in minutes doing a few missions. This is another angle of EVE that has been taken away from those older players that have spent a lot of time building standings and are starting to receive some good rewards. Then, in one patch, all that time and effort becomes meaningless. The balance has been severely lost within EVE as everything seems to be PvP focused more and more at the expense of all the other aspects. Patch after patch this seems to become more the case. No wonder tech 2 ships are becoming more and more expensive as hardly anyone can afford to produce them. Manufacture and research has become so difficult and unprofitable no-one bothers anymore and just goes pirate. I've spent most of the last 3 years I have subscribed to EVE building up my science, research and industry skills for what reason? It's so pointless now. I fully understand that EVE is trying to recruit younger subscribers by making PvP the focus but why does everyone else (usually the older and more experienced players) pursuing other aspects suffer? Gaming experience for loads of ppl has been severely reduced and if this trend continues I would probably switch over to World of Warcraft (which in my opinion is a sin but I would have no choice). Anyone else with similar gripes (and I fully expect all the pirate teenagers out there to reply with 'grow some balls' and 'try leaving the stn some time, u noob,' etc, etc.)?
crusader king	Posted - 2007.07.05 10:51:00 - [2] Having only been playing the game for 6 months, I have worked my butt off trying to build up skills etc. To finally have the skills to fly a maelstrom with some credibility only to be popped by some opportunist morons who havn't a clue, is seriously demorlising. If I wanted to PvP I would have got in a Wolf and gone and done it! CCp seriously needs to decide which direction they want the game to go in.
Asestorian Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.07.05 10:54:00 - [3] Edited by: Asestorian on 05/07/2007 10:56:51 Originally by: crusader king CCP seriously needs to decide which direction they want the game to go in. They decided that a long time ago. Their decision was that EVE was going to allow PvP whether a person wanted to PvP or not. There was never, and probably will never be, a PvP flag that you can just turn on and off at will. If you are that worried about dying, you don't have to leave Hi-Sec space you know. Edit: And in more reply to the OP. Firstly, not everyone who PvPs is a angsty teenager who just wants to grief everyone. Some of the most successful and prominent PvPers are older, and extremely clever. The people who build the most successful alliances like BoB and MC are older, and they live for PvP in EVE. Secondly: Tech II ship prices have fallen, not risen --- ---
Bumbum George	Posted - 2007.07.05 10:55:00 - [4] a carebear is whining, this is new to me... no, wait....
knifee Caldari Rage Academy oooh Shiny	Posted - 2007.07.05 10:55:00 - [5] Originally by: crusader king Having only been playing the game for 6 months, I have worked my butt off trying to build up skills etc. To finally have the skills to fly a maelstrom with some credibility only to be popped by some opportunist morons who havn't a clue, is seriously demorlising. If I wanted to PvP I would have got in a Wolf and gone and done it! CCp seriously needs to decide which direction they want the game to go in. tbh i think they have decided... and that direction is more PVP. While it may be demoralising loseing a ship, especialy one you cant afford to lose, whineing about losing a ship in eve says more about you then it does about any 'opportunist morons who havn't a clue'. www.eve-dev.net - making a good thing better
Aioa Planetary Assault Systems	Posted - 2007.07.05 10:56:00 - [6] Originally by: Bumbum George a carebear is whining, this is new to me... no, wait.... Best you can do?
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.07.05 10:58:00 - [7] Edited by: Death Kill on 05/07/2007 10:58:12 Originally by: Asestorian If you are that worried about dying, you don't have to leave Hi-Sec space you know. /signed. I do agree with the OP on the manufacturing and science bit. As wel las the loyalty points thing. Originally by: myself The Amarr templar joke is a joke stupid people can laugh at. Its the joke any dumb person can laugh at.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.07.05 10:58:00 - [8] Edited by: Ki An on 05/07/2007 11:00:15 Originally by: Col Kaos 1. Scanning into deadspace missions. This has become so easy any noob with a scan probe can find a player deadspace mission with total ease and in minutes (and I thought this had been made more difficult?). Once locked down, swarms of pirates set up for PvP head in and start killing players at will, who can do absolutely nothing about it but sit and watch their ships go pop. Is this how CCP envisioned PvP within EVE? If so, then it sucks. If I am soloing a level 4 mission my ship is set up for tanking, not PvP. One stab and that's my targetting range gone, which is yet another ridiculous/ pointless feature CCP have put in to enhance PvP and stuff up the rest of the game for others. Deadspace scanning is not a challenge at all. Have you ever tried scanning down a mission runner? If not, you are only going on the amount of pirates visiting you in your missions. The problem is not that it's easy to scan down a mission runner, because it's not. It's rediculously difficult and time consuming, and it is also more of a matter of chance, not so much of skill. Originally by: Col Kaos About missions Guess you might have a point there. Haven't done any missions since Revelations II, so I wouldn't know, but before Rev II missions where too easy and profitable. I'm speaking as an avid mission runner here. Originally by: Col Kaos The balance has been severely lost within EVE as everything seems to be PvP focused more and more at the expense of all the other aspects. Patch after patch this seems to become more the case. No wonder tech 2 ships are becoming more and more expensive as hardly anyone can afford to produce them. Manufacture and research has become so difficult and unprofitable no-one bothers anymore and just goes pirate. I've spent most of the last 3 years I have subscribed to EVE building up my science, research and industry skills for what reason? It's so pointless now. EvE is, and always has been PvP focused. It's the foundation of the game. It's not solely a PvP game, but it IS a PvP focused game. About R&D being pointless, have you tried exploration and invention? R&D don't provide you with a unlimited cash cow any more (T2 BPO), but it is still EXTREMELY profitable if you know what you're doing. I do both exploration, R&D and invention, and it's both fun and profitable. Give it a shot. Originally by: Col Kaos I fully understand that EVE is trying to recruit younger subscribers by making PvP the focus but why does everyone else (usually the older and more experienced players) pursuing other aspects suffer? Gaming experience for loads of ppl has been severely reduced and if this trend continues I would probably switch over to World of Warcraft (which in my opinion is a sin but I would have no choice). Anyone else with similar gripes (and I fully expect all the pirate teenagers out there to reply with 'grow some balls' and 'try leaving the stn some time, u noob,' etc, etc.)? Once again, EvE is and always was PvP focused. I'm surprised you didn't notice that in your 3 years. If you want consentual PvP you should switch to WoW, or LOTRO (better choice imo). /Ki Joy to the world Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Victor Valka Caldari Archon Industries	Posted - 2007.07.05 11:02:00 - [9] Funny. PvP-ers cry that everything is done for PvE and they are getting shafted. PvE-ers cry that everything is done for PvP and they are getting shafted. From that we can deduce that balance has been reached. Kudos CCP.
Cpt Branko Guardian Heroes	Posted - 2007.07.05 11:06:00 - [10] The OP & his supporters are just clueless. Nobody can attack you in high-sec. Unless he's got kill rights on you or has you war-decced. If you're running missions in low-sec, what do you want? There's tons of high sec lv 4 agents if you don't want any risk. The LP store is a great, if only for buying faction ammo ;P
ToxicFire Phoenix Knights Dark Nebula Galactic Empire	Posted - 2007.07.05 11:12:00 - [11] Originally by: Cpt Branko Nobody can attack you in high-sec. Unless he's got kill rights on you or has you war-decced. people can attack you, you know or have you just ignored the suicide ganking of large numbers of freighters in high sec recently Sig removed as it lacks EVE-related content. Mail [email protected] if you have questions. -Hango
Xanorok Minmatar mega mining corporation Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.05 11:15:00 - [12] Well, I'd say it's going uphill. Only, you don't like the scenery revealed by the height.
Firkragg Blue Labs Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.07.05 11:16:00 - [13] CCP just fixed a problem. Level 4 missions let you make nearly as much in highsec as you can in 0.0. This is obviously not right so they lowered the rewards of level 4 missions. Now you have two choices, you can do level 4 missions in high sec and be completely safe and make a little less money. Or you can take the risk and do missions in low sec for the greater rewards.
Raneru Darwin With Attitude oooh Shiny	Posted - 2007.07.05 11:16:00 - [14] If you are so worried about losing your stuff while missioning, Only do them in high sec. Or get some friends together and have some fun killing pirates that attack. Missions are now far from pointless. I now have a reason to run them as I can help a friend do level 4 missions and gain standing and LP without pointless grinding of lower level missions. In a few missions I can gain enough LP for faction ammo.
Na'Kunni Amarr RSP Enterprises	Posted - 2007.07.05 11:22:00 - [15] leave EVE then
Damares Flying While Intoxicated The Threshold	Posted - 2007.07.05 11:23:00 - [16] just dont enter low sec, there is so few non pirates in low sec that pirates have to be spoon fed kill's so they get anything at all, unless your gate camping ofcourse which is even easier. just dont enter low sec if you dont want to die..... and dont give me the crap of "oh well the rewards in empire are rubbish i need to go to low sec" because low sec isnt safe, not at all, you ARE going to die if you spend long enough in low sec, and as a mission runner, it will likely be sooner rather than later
Kharadran Sullath Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.05 11:29:00 - [17] Edited by: Kharadran Sullath on 05/07/2007 11:29:22 I fully understand that EVE is trying to recruit younger subscribers by making PvP the focus but why does everyone else (usually the older and more experienced players) pursuing other aspects suffer? The older and more experienced players suffer from PvP-friendly patches? What are you smoking and where can I get some? I myself am not a particularly old or experienced player but know a good few PvP'ers that are. ------ --Don't get saucy with me Bernaise!--
Tante Erna	Posted - 2007.07.05 11:33:00 - [18] Dear OP, this is a MMORPG, this means u have to interact with other players. Mission-Rats aren¦t other players. Conclusion: as a MMORPG, it allows others to interact with u. If u wanna avoid it, search for another, non-multiplayer-game like x¦ or simply go to another Agent downward the ladder in Highsec and have fun. the missions r the same, only the reward is a bit lower, but that might not be a problem, because u get enough LP within minutes to archieve another +4 implantset. Just spend some minutes more.
R3dSh1ft Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.07.05 11:37:00 - [19] As an older player, you make yourself look stupid. DKOD - an awesome synchronised killing machine
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.05 11:38:00 - [20] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 05/07/2007 11:38:47 Originally by: Col Kaos One stab and that's my targetting range gone, which is yet another ridiculous/ pointless feature CCP have put in to enhance PvP and stuff up the rest of the game for others. It hurts your post to put in little side comments like this which are so horribly wrong. Originally by: Col Kaos The balance has been severely lost within EVE as everything seems to be PvP focused more and more at the expense of all the other aspects. Well spotted. Originally by: Col Kaos Manufacture and research has become so difficult and unprofitable no-one bothers anymore and just goes pirate. I am currently doing nothing but manufacturing, and am making a fortune. Originally by: Col Kaos I fully understand that EVE is trying to recruit younger subscribers by making PvP the focus but why does everyone else (usually the older and more experienced players) pursuing other aspects suffer? You automatically Fail by deciding that people who like to PvP are younger players and older players do other stuff. This is a true 'carebear' attitude. You understand nothing. - :(
Ulii	Posted - 2007.07.05 11:40:00 - [21] Edited by: Ulii on 05/07/2007 11:42:50 Originally by: R3dSh1ft As an older player, you make yourself look stupid. he might not be old because he says so or his char is... there are a lot of poofs about that. (not saying that you are not, dear OP. just that you could) edit: oh... I thought that pirates where a dying breed... and now it says that it is the carebares that are dying. how could i have gotten it so tottaly wrong (I would be called a carebear by most players... althou i do pvp from time to time (even other than market-orientated))
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.07.05 11:40:00 - [22] Edited by: Shadowsword on 05/07/2007 11:43:02 Originally by: Col Kaos Scanning into deadspace missions. This has become so easy any noob with a scan probe can find a player deadspace mission with total ease and in minutes (and I thought this had been made more difficult?). Once locked down, swarms of pirates set up for PvP head in and start killing players at will, who can do absolutely nothing about it but sit and watch their ships go pop. Is this how CCP envisioned PvP within EVE? If so, then it sucks. If I am soloing a level 4 mission my ship is set up for tanking, not PvP. One stab and that's my targetting range gone, which is yet another ridiculous/ pointless feature CCP have put in to enhance PvP and stuff up the rest of the game for others. Deadspace scanning is not a challenge at all. About scanning, you're probably exagerating a lot on the time it really takes (like in the rest of your thread, besides). And you'd better stop asking for a WCS unnerf, it's one of the best things that happened in years. You don't seem to have known the multi-stabs-on-every-ships era, but those who experienced it don't want to see a come-back. Originally by: Col Kaos 2. Missions and loyalty points. Missions are fast becoming pointless endeavours, as the level 4s have become easier (therefore, less money involved), players get scanned out so easily and the standing increase you now receive is so minimal more junior players would just give up after getting no-where doing hundreds of missions and barely getting onto the next agent. Loyalty points are now also a completely pointless pursuit. After a few missions you can get just about anything on the new loyalty system and the entire market is flooded with items that had some value in the past. Nowadays, I'm not even worried about losing all my +4 implants as I could get them back in minutes doing a few missions. This is another angle of EVE that has been taken away from those older players that have spent a lot of time building standings and are starting to receive some good rewards. Then, in one patch, all that time and effort becomes meaningless. Hum, BS. The standing bug was fixed in a matter of days, and standings are now as they were before the patch. The LP store is great, aside from the tags, and you're whining because +4 implants are too cheap for you? Then buy a +5 set. As for getting +4 implants in minutes, have you ever heard that blatently exagerating was the surest way to lose credibility? ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Markus Aurelian	Posted - 2007.07.05 11:43:00 - [23] the problem with the argument of "go to 0.0, its supposed to be more profitable because of risk/reward" is that you get blown out of the skies if you have the wrong ticker in many parts of 0.0. its not like you can take your faction fitted BS to any system you want with an agent there and start running missions and ratting. if the game mechanics were more balanced towards small corporations and alliances and less towards large ones (namely by making it hard to control huge areas of space, therefore allowing more corps and alliances there own place in 0.0 without joining aforementioned large alliances) then the logic behind moving people out to 0.0 would be great. as it stands now, its not. also, while the "focus" of the game might be pvp (in my opinion its not, but thats a completely different rant), theres a huge number of people that arent avid pvp'ers...most subscribers are carebears who mine/run missions in empire because they like collecting add-ons for the e-peen in the relative safety of empire space, with perhaps an occaisional foray into lowsec to pvp. mission runners provide a huge amount of goods into the economy if they bother to loot, and making it harder for them to make a living isnt serving anyone but pirates. Meatwad FTW
Anglo Minmatar Astral Mexicans	Posted - 2007.07.05 11:44:00 - [24] eve is going downhill because theres to litlle regions. and to much bob.
JamesTalon Caldari Electric Fury Corp	Posted - 2007.07.05 11:48:00 - [25] As no one else has said it, "Can I have your stuff?" Now, personally, I love the new mission stuff. The ability to work with corp members and do lvl 4 missions and get LP and rewards from that mission other than loot and bounties, is one of the greatest things ever. The LP store is also an amazing thing, since before hand, it was a game of rejecting crap offers for the final, golden offer that you spend a month trying to get. Now, you can spend that same time, get the offer you want a number of times. With me, its going to be fitting my Drake with Caldari Navy modules. "Return with your shield, or on it."
amarrly Amarr Kurai-Komichi Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.05 11:49:00 - [26] EVE was always about risk vs reward, NEVER EVER FORGET THAT
Rantanplan	Posted - 2007.07.05 11:51:00 - [27] Originally by: Anglo eve is going downhill because theres to litlle regions. and to much bob. ... or maybe to few BOB-Hostiles ... factional warfare would not be neccessary if other alliances would cooperate and burn them out of their territory. everybody is complaining about the BOB victorys ... but why do alliances not organize themselves to fight em, instead id whining about it? yes, i¦m an alt and no, my main is not a BOB
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.07.05 11:54:00 - [28] Originally by: Markus Aurelian the problem with the argument of "go to 0.0, its supposed to be more profitable because of risk/reward" is that you get blown out of the skies if you have the wrong ticker in many parts of 0.0. its not like you can take your faction fitted BS to any system you want with an agent there and start running missions and ratting. if the game mechanics were more balanced towards small corporations and alliances and less towards large ones (namely by making it hard to control huge areas of space, therefore allowing more corps and alliances there own place in 0.0 without joining aforementioned large alliances) then the logic behind moving people out to 0.0 would be great. Yes, I would love to see a lot more regions in 0.0 and a step back from the trend of making it easier for few people to control large areas of space. That's just me though. Originally by: Markus Aurelian as it stands now, its not. also, while the "focus" of the game might be pvp (in my opinion its not, but thats a completely different rant), theres a huge number of people that arent avid pvp'ers...most subscribers are carebears who mine/run missions in empire because they like collecting add-ons for the e-peen in the relative safety of empire space, with perhaps an occaisional foray into lowsec to pvp. mission runners provide a huge amount of goods into the economy if they bother to loot, and making it harder for them to make a living isnt serving anyone but pirates. First, there's really no debating the issue of wether or not the game is PvP focused, as the devs have clearly said so on multiple occations. It should come as no surprise when the PvP aspect gets the most love from the devs when they keep repeating that that's what the game is about. Second, mission runners can run missions all they want in high sec without having to worry about pirates. What's the problem, really? That you can't run the same missions in low sec or 0.0 where the rewards are greater without risk? Seriously, if that bugs you you are in the wrong game. In this game you have to fight for what you have. CCP already make it too easy for you by still allowing huge isk faucets in high sec, but they are graduately trimming them down, which is the only way to go. Thirdly, why would making it harder for mission runners be good for pirates? It's not, and if you think about it for a minute I'm sure you will understand why. /Ki Joy to the world Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
MissileRus	Posted - 2007.07.05 12:00:00 - [29] Edited by: MissileRus on 05/07/2007 12:00:41 Originally by: amarrly EVE was always about risk vs reward, NEVER EVER FORGET THAT QFT edit: oh and nerf gate camping.. to little risk to mutch reward j/k but kinda not.. lol! --------------------------- 4. i like pizza
Waut 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.07.05 12:01:00 - [30] Originally by: Col Kaos No wonder tech 2 ships are becoming more and more expensive as hardly anyone can afford to produce them. WHAAAAAAAAAAAT?!? In Soviet EVE, roids pop YOU
Lady Beauvoir	Posted - 2007.07.05 12:04:00 - [31] Originally by: Col Kaos The balance has been severely lost within EVE as everything seems to be PvP focused more and more at the expense of all the other aspects. Patch after patch this seems to become more the case. No wonder tech 2 ships are becoming more and more expensive as hardly anyone can afford to produce them. Manufacture and research has become so difficult and unprofitable no-one bothers anymore and just goes pirate. I've spent most of the last 3 years I have subscribed to EVE building up my science, research and industry skills for what reason? It's so pointless now. Manufacturing and trading are the hardest aspects in this game. And this is coming from a PVPer. Manufacturing and trading are cutthroat PVP arenas where every ISK you earn is taken from cold fingers of your opponent. It's not just about buying stuff, building items and then selling them in Jita; you need to consider where to buy, how to buy, where to sell and how to eliminate competition. That's hard, and I love PVP in all it's forms, both in the market and in space, violating the boats. My advice: consider your career in EVE a challenge. Always try to surpass yourself, consider how you could do better, plan ahead, make backup plans, strive to win at all costs. When you persevere where your opponent quits you will feel so good that it's hard to describe. :)
Sharl Hawkeye	Posted - 2007.07.05 12:07:00 - [32] EVE was always a PVP game. You can die anywhere and at any time. Not so much in Empire today but 4 years go Empire was such "free" land as the 0.0. No sentries or Concord. Imho with the latest attacks in high sec space, EVE found it's way back to the good old days. One thing remaining to make it better. Warp scrambling should not be an offence in empire until the target gets damage New era for pirates.
Miyamoto Uroki Katsu Corporation	Posted - 2007.07.05 12:09:00 - [33] Originally by: Firkragg CCP just fixed a problem. Level 4 missions let you make nearly as much in highsec as you can in 0.0. This is obviously not right so they lowered the rewards of level 4 missions. Now you have two choices, you can do level 4 missions in high sec and be completely safe and make a little less money. Or you can take the risk and do missions in low sec for the greater rewards. Second that. Eve got a quite big problem: people were earning too much iskies. How can i say that? Just look at all the capital ships out there. They meant to be not a common force.. i mean, alliances should have used them, not the average joe in empire. Or another example: faction battleships, or the sheer amount of faction modules. So ccp needed an isk sink. On all fronts, of course. What happened?: - they nerfed 0.0 high ore mining by introducing drone regions. - player trading doesn't need to be nerfed, as its totally depending on your cleverness whether you make a fortune or not. nothing to do with game mechanics - they nerfed T2 production by introducing invention. Now it's also totally player controlled system. And guess what: mission income became way too much, due to ever easier missions with rigged ships, all tech2 fitting etc. So they now nerfed missions. Perfectly balanced and had to be done. Imho missions are too easy, that's true. Most of them. And i don't think it's right to leave some lvl 4 high quality agents in high sec. They have to be moved into low sec altogether. And make low sec encounters and exploration content worth it. Sure, there are lots of things that appear to be broken, or not very well balanced. But we are on a good way to achieve that, from my point of view. Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face
paaaulotwo	Posted - 2007.07.05 12:19:00 - [34] You missed out the poor customer support >_>
Lady Beauvoir	Posted - 2007.07.05 12:22:00 - [35] Originally by: Sharl Hawkeye EVE was always a PVP game. You can die anywhere and at any time. Not so much in Empire today but 4 years go Empire was such "free" land as the 0.0. No sentries or Concord. Imho with the latest attacks in high sec space, EVE found it's way back to the good old days. One thing remaining to make it better. Warp scrambling should not be an offence in empire until the target gets damage New era for pirates. Bad idea. The instant this would be implemented we would have frigate pilots harassing freighter and transport pilots by scrambling them and preventing them from moving anywhere unless they paid a ransom. The only way to escape this would be to petition the offender for harassment, like you'd do against a group of shuttles dropping jetcans all around a freighter and demanding a ransom in high-sec.
Miyamoto Uroki Katsu Corporation	Posted - 2007.07.05 12:32:00 - [36] Edited by: Miyamoto Uroki on 05/07/2007 12:35:02 I agree that high sec suicide killing industrials and freighters in particular, is something that needs to be addressed. It's generating for sure no fun for the players. On the other side, i would say to pilot a freighter should only be allowed to non-npc corp chars (though i guess it's almost impossible to implement a routine for that). mentioning controllable space: ccp listed the idea of Viceroys in empire space on their drawing board. Hope they are pushing that forward after the implemention of factional warfare. Sounds great fun. And for the bigger alliances that hold most of 0.0 space. It's pretty much balanced these days. Have a look at the map. I remember the days when there were no official alliances, and these alliances hold much bigger areas. The north is scattered, the south not yet, but it's always an ongoing cycle. oh, almost forgot to mention: while player ships are getting stronger and stronger due to better fitting, skills, rigs and implants, there is one entity that needs to be upgraded. the damn gate and station sentry guns. can't be that you can camp the sentrys in low sec all day long, or sit in front of a station with your Nighthawk and kill everything that docks off and STAY there. Sentry guns need to be devastating, as they were in the past. Make it possible to withstand their firepower for like 20 seconds in a fully tanked battleship, but not more.. Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.05 12:46:00 - [37] Originally by: Sharl Hawkeye Warp scrambling should not be an offence in empire until the target gets damage New era for pirates. That would be griefing. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
genome 77 Gallente Los Gordos	Posted - 2007.07.05 12:51:00 - [38] Originally by: Lady Beauvoir Originally by: Sharl Hawkeye EVE was always a PVP game. You can die anywhere and at any time. Not so much in Empire today but 4 years go Empire was such "free" land as the 0.0. No sentries or Concord. Imho with the latest attacks in high sec space, EVE found it's way back to the good old days. One thing remaining to make it better. Warp scrambling should not be an offence in empire until the target gets damage New era for pirates. Bad idea. The instant this would be implemented we would have frigate pilots harassing freighter and transport pilots by scrambling them and preventing them from moving anywhere unless they paid a ransom. The only way to escape this would be to petition the offender for harassment, like you'd do against a group of shuttles dropping jetcans all around a freighter and demanding a ransom in high-sec. That would be loads of fun, and not harassment, just plain simple piracy. -------------------------------------------------- Killing you was a simple matter of economics. Your gear was worth more than the ammunition used to attain it, thus profit is born.
Sha4d13	Posted - 2007.07.05 13:22:00 - [39] No- it would be griefing. Unless others were instantly given kill rights on the scramblers, so a fleet supporting the freighter could do something about it...
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.05 13:30:00 - [40] It's never griefing. - Sig restored due to awesomeness. For details respond to my e-mails >:(
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.05 13:41:00 - [41] Edited by: Grimpak on 05/07/2007 13:41:21 crumplecorn wins eve with his sigs tbh. oh and yes, that's the answer to your post (OP's one). --- truth about EVE: Originally by: Cpt Branko "Guns are fine, boost players"
SasRipper DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2007.07.05 13:42:00 - [42] you forget to say FIX THIS NOW OR AM LEAVING WITH MY 17 FRIENDS/ALTS! snip Sas has spoken this tread shall be locked.
Dakota Phonic New Light KnightRaven Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.05 13:54:00 - [43] the OP obviously isnt playing the same game as me, last time I checked all T2 ships had dropped to serious lows. Also, these pirates you talk about on missions, are they little red crosses? Cause.....em.....they are NPC they are meant to find you, perhaps u need a better tank. RECRUITMENT THREAD http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=518172
Cardealer	Posted - 2007.07.05 13:57:00 - [44] Originally by: Lady Beauvoir Originally by: Sharl Hawkeye EVE was always a PVP game. You can die anywhere and at any time. Not so much in Empire today but 4 years go Empire was such "free" land as the 0.0. No sentries or Concord. Imho with the latest attacks in high sec space, EVE found it's way back to the good old days. One thing remaining to make it better. Warp scrambling should not be an offence in empire until the target gets damage New era for pirates. Bad idea. The instant this would be implemented we would have frigate pilots harassing freighter and transport pilots by scrambling them and preventing them from moving anywhere unless they paid a ransom. The only way to escape this would be to petition the offender for harassment, like you'd do against a group of shuttles dropping jetcans all around a freighter and demanding a ransom in high-sec. I think that's kind of the idea
Andreas Kallesoee Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.07.05 14:04:00 - [45] @ grimpak I STILL BLAME YOU
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.05 14:14:00 - [46] Originally by: Andreas Kallesoee @ grimpak I STILL BLAME YOU I BLAME GRIMPAK TOO! --- truth about EVE: Originally by: Cpt Branko "Guns are fine, boost players"
Ladyah Liandri A GmbH	Posted - 2007.07.05 14:23:00 - [47] Edited by: Ladyah Liandri on 05/07/2007 14:23:25 Mission probing facts: - No "noob" as the OP mentioned can do this in respect to the skill requirements - If the missioner is in 4 AU or lesser range then the OP is right: you can easily be probed with exploration probes. But that takes time (at least 2 minutes) and skills. - If you have to use normal scan probes then probing a mission runner is really a pain but you can get lucky from time to time. - Probes appear on your scanner. So if you have to run missions in low-sec but neglect your scanner you deserve every punishment executed upon you. To sum it up: - you don't have to fly missions in low sec - even if someone is a very skilled prober you will almost always have enough time to a.) detect probes and b.) avoid pew-pew. So no need to change anything IMHO.
Liisa Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.07.05 14:31:00 - [48] Originally by: Ladyah Liandri Edited by: Ladyah Liandri on 05/07/2007 14:23:25 Mission probing facts: - No "noob" as the OP mentioned can do this in respect to the skill requirements - If the missioner is in 4 AU or lesser range then the OP is right: you can easily be probed with exploration probes. But that takes time (at least 2 minutes) and skills. - If you have to use normal scan probes then probing a mission runner is really a pain but you can get lucky from time to time. - Probes appear on your scanner. So if you have to run missions in low-sec but neglect your scanner you deserve every punishment executed upon you. To sum it up: - you don't have to fly missions in low sec - even if someone is a very skilled prober you will almost always have enough time to a.) detect probes and b.) avoid pew-pew. So no need to change anything IMHO. As a player who has spent a lot of time scanning down mission runners, a few facts: I only got quick scans when I was within 2 au of the target. Range matters, it decreases your scan strength. I only got within 2 au after about 3 weeks of scanning a single system day in and day out and there were still mission runners who had missions more than 20 au from any celestial object. Even getting a bookmark within 10 au of these was a challenge. Luck plays a big part. So do drones. I could be within 1 au of a target and need 3 probes to get a signal, but I could also get a signal first scan on a 20 au probe at 15 au range. The people who do scan down mission runners normally take pride if getting better and better at it. We try and have a comprehensive net of bookmarks in order to get quick scan results. The most extreme example I have seen was someone who had in excess of 250 bookmarks for a single system. The most I had was 150. Many of these, especially those far of the plane of the system are hard won, normally with 10 or 20 au probes and hours of scanning. We do not snap our fingers and have the bookmarks we need, we work for them, please consider this. ---------------------------------- Currently pursuing a "deviant playstyle."
The Snowman Gallente Black Mithril Holdings	Posted - 2007.07.05 14:35:00 - [49] Unfortunatly I dont think CCP will address the issues raised here, how many posts like this have there been about deadspace scanning with nothing changed?.. same with drones, for years they have been broken.. how many more years of complaints will they ignore before fixing it or at least telling us that they wont? I Kind of agree about the LP Stores, they seem kind of pointless, even just after a few weeks, most items can be bought for the same price on the market as you can pay at the store except for a few items, but time will soon level this out. I do think though its better than the random method previously.. but they do need to be balanced! rather than ask for ISK and LP they should be asking for Commodoties, trade items or other such things! not just ISK, it seems CCP are running out of imagination =[ I dont think that Eve is "Going down hill" however! There are a great many improvments, Each time I come back to Eve I enjoy it a bit more.. I just get frustrated with CCP when even after 18 months the same things are still not fixed! to make it worse they appear to be pouring their efforts into expensive tv programs, card games and font sizes.
Lickity Split Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.05 14:45:00 - [50] Eve is a pvp game. On the other hand it should have more research, science, industrial things that are fun for people who enjoy that sort of thing. With out industial stuff the pirates and pvpers have nothing to shoot at. Without the pirates and pvpers the industrialist have nothing to build for. As for deadspace being dangerous, if you have a group of pirates harrassing you, hire mercs. Or use your corpmates or local friends and set traps for them. Pirates dont like getting beat at their own game and it might make them a bit more careful on jumping on you and your friends. Hell you might enjoy killing them.
Dracborne Mining Bytes Inc. Mass Destruction.	Posted - 2007.07.05 15:06:00 - [51] Originally by: Col Kaos No wonder tech 2 ships are becoming more and more expensive as hardly anyone can afford to produce them. You do understand that this simple qoute basically burns ANY other credible statements in your post. When Hulks, which are Tech II mining barges btw, go from being ~620mil to ~135 mil and HAC's like the Vaga can be found for ~100, simply from the introduction of invention, I'd say the trend is that Tech II stuff is getting MUCH, MUCH cheaper. The only real recent Tech II ship price spike was for all the stealth bombers due to the introduction of bombs, though they've come back down to reasonable prices. That can be chalked up to good old capitalism. O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti tOde keimetha tois keinon rhTmasi peithomenoi.
Vitrael Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.07.05 15:32:00 - [52] Sounds like somebody got probed out and ganked in lowsec and now he's complaining... Think of it this way. We once sat a recon and a second prober outside a Tempest in a mission using 4AU probes every 30 and 120 seconds for ten minutes with no hits. It's NOT too easy to scan for missioners. Besides, any missioner who knows what he's doing will check his scanner if he's in lowsec to make sure no one is probing him. You have no idea how many times I've escaped ganking because I saw a probe on scanner and a gang in local. Play smart, or quit and give me your stuff. ----------
Kain De'Stroi Epic.	Posted - 2007.07.05 16:13:00 - [53] Edited by: Kain De''Stroi on 05/07/2007 16:21:45 Originally by: Col Kaos 1. Scanning into deadspace missions. This has become so easy any noob with a scan probe can find a player deadspace mission with total ease [[/quote If you are who i think you are- we are not noobs, that was a 40m sp char whit maxxed skills for the task that scanned you down whit a pretty expensive scaning setup and several days had been spent to make sure we could cover every spot in the system. yes, its pretty easy to scan people down if you prepare right, but not something any n00b could do. ----------------
Admiral Himerias	Posted - 2007.07.05 16:31:00 - [54] I agree with the author about standings. As someone who has played the game for almost two months I am surprised that it takes so long to go up in standings. I have literally done HUNDREDS of lvl 1 and 2 missions in the hopes I can get to lvl 3. And I have trained my social and connection skills to lvl 3 as well. But its still so difficult to get to lvl 3 missions and my standing is only half what I need and in some cases 25% of what I need to see some lvl 3 agents. I am not a pvper. I just kill people that prevent me from carebearing.
Ga'len Amarr Wandering Druid	Posted - 2007.07.05 16:37:00 - [55] Originally by: Victor Valka Funny. PvP-ers cry that everything is done for PvE and they are getting shafted. PvE-ers cry that everything is done for PvP and they are getting shafted. From that we can deduce that balance has been reached. Kudos CCP. It's these "Moments of Buddhist Enlightenment" that make reading all the posts on these forums worth the effort. BTW, love the sig!! Yes, I am the exception that defines the rules.
Vorketh Mordanil Amarr Brotherhood of Acquisitions	Posted - 2007.07.05 16:48:00 - [56] I haven't noticed it mentioned that without PVP, there would be no really functional economy. PVP is the greatest source of lost ships, and I'm going to guess that ad hoc PVP is probably responsible for more ship losses in total than fleet battles. The loss of a ship, every time, period, creates a brand new demand for at least 1 ship, and a handful of modules. Every. Time. Without this, the only people buying ships are first timers and those who actually manage to get popped against NPCs. So before you go knocking PVP, remember that without it, this game would fall apart, and not due to a lack of fun, but because all the mechanics as you know it would fail in a chain reaction: Supply drops off dramatically-->Mining becomes highly unprofitable as the prices of modules sink-->Industry suffers - people make less stuff-->Harder to find the modules you need--> etc. If PVP goes away, the market equilibrium will drop so low that ratting in a 0.6 is likely to make you more money, if you count reprocessing the small modules. Nothing in this game occurs in a vacuum (pardon the pun there), and every aspect is both reliant upon and contributant towards every other aspect. V --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Miss Anthropy School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.07.05 17:31:00 - [57] Originally by: Na'Kunni leave EVE then But then he wouldn't have anything to be unhappy about. You clearly don't understand the nature of the malcontent. NERF AMARR!
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.07.05 17:31:00 - [58] I shall throw random quotes at the OP in hopes that one causes wrecking damage. Maybe one of them will actually be applicable and someone will be fooled into thinking I'm actually wise or something. Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress, therefore, depends on unreasonable people. - George Bernard Shaw Enjoying success requires the ability to adapt. Only by being open to change will you have a true opportunity to get the most from your talent. - Nolan Ryan You don't need a weather man to tell which way the wind blows. - Bob Dylan The future ain't what it used to be. - Yogi Berra Dammit! They took my freakin kidney! - Charlie the Unicorn ------------------- WE'RE SORRY, SOMETHING HAPPENED
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.05 18:18:00 - [59] Originally by: Ladyah Liandri Edited by: Ladyah Liandri on 05/07/2007 14:23:25 Mission probing facts: - No "noob" as the OP mentioned can do this in respect to the skill requirements - If the missioner is in 4 AU or lesser range then the OP is right: you can easily be probed with exploration probes. But that takes time (at least 2 minutes) and skills. - If you have to use normal scan probes then probing a mission runner is really a pain but you can get lucky from time to time. - Probes appear on your scanner. So if you have to run missions in low-sec but neglect your scanner you deserve every punishment executed upon you. To sum it up: - you don't have to fly missions in low sec - even if someone is a very skilled prober you will almost always have enough time to a.) detect probes and b.) avoid pew-pew. So no need to change anything IMHO. To expand on this a bit, there are a few things you can do to avoid getting scanned and ganked in a mission. 1. Move off the warp-in point. When the prober warps in, if you're sitting at the warp-in point he's going to have a point on you before you before you notice he's there. 2. Align to something. You should be doing this anyway as a lot of the missions have surprises now when your drone wanders off and shoots the wrong frig. When the prober warps in, just hit your warp button and he won't be able to target and scram you. 3. Be fast. Each scan has a low probability of success, but if you sit in the mission salvaging with your 139 m/s faction-fit raven for a couple hours, someone may notice you're there and start probing and depending on how skilled he is, and how long into the mission you were when he detected you, he may catch you. 4. Have friends. If 90% of your corp is afk or spread out across EVE then they aren't doing you any good. Probers have an advantage once they find you because they know what you're in and sometimes what you're tanked for/shooting, so they're fit for it. Because the only way you actually get caught is if you don't scan, you don't know what they have until they engage. Probing takes a long time, though, so few probing gangs will show up with overwhelming firepower (there's better stuff for a large gang to do). Don't mission unless you have a friend nearby. You will likely be jammed or damped by your attackers, but they may not have enough tank/firepower/ewar to take out both you and your friend. In the last few days my corp and I have probed a carrier, 2 BS's, and a BC in mission spaces. The one who played smart got away. I also had someone scan down my scan probe and try to attack me (I got away \o/). That probe was in space less than 10 minutes when he decided to scan for it, scanned for it, found it, and warped to it (0m scan deviation). If you want easy, probe for the probers and kill their gimped no-cpu fit ships. _____ Heat Warfare
Beef Hardslab The 5 Amigo's LLC. NxT LeveL	Posted - 2007.07.05 18:29:00 - [60] Originally by: Victor Valka Funny. PvP-ers cry that everything is done for PvE and they are getting shafted. PvE-ers cry that everything is done for PvP and they are getting shafted. From that we can deduce that balance has been reached. Kudos CCP. Thread was over with this post tbh. Why there should be a breathalyzer to login to Eve: Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii Podding my own alt in a gatecamp while drunk, he was carrying a hauler full of tech II goods, Oops.
Callente Riveara Gallente Raddick Explorations Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.07.05 18:39:00 - [61] Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 05/07/2007 13:41:21 crumplecorn wins eve with his sigs tbh. oh and yes, that's the answer to your post (OP's one). you know... if your agreeing to PvP upon undocking, as that sig suggests, wouldnt it techincally be consensual PvP?
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.07.05 18:40:00 - [62] Originally by: Callente Riveara you know... if your agreeing to PvP upon undocking, as that sig suggests, wouldnt it techincally be consensual PvP? That kind of logic has no place on these forums, sir. :p warp drive active \| nature vraie
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.05 18:43:00 - [63] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 05/07/2007 18:43:25 Originally by: Callente Riveara Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 05/07/2007 13:41:21 crumplecorn wins eve with his sigs tbh. oh and yes, that's the answer to your post (OP's one). you know... if your agreeing to PvP upon undocking, as that sig suggests, wouldnt it techincally be consensual PvP? Yes, I am aware that that is technically a contradiction, however what I actually mean by 'unconsensual PvP' in that case is PvP when you really don't want to PvP. Even if you accept unconsensual PvP as a concept, there are still times when you don't mind being attacked, and those when you really don't want to be (hence the pic of a freighter wreck). In reality there is no unconsensual PvP in EVE due to the rule mentioned in that sig, but people insist on referring to it as unconsensual anyway. - Sig restored due to awesomeness. For details respond to my e-mails >:(
Roger Arko Geddonites	Posted - 2007.07.05 20:57:00 - [64] Well, why would you need to pay $15 / month just to run some missions? You can do same and even with more excitement level in a single player games. EVE is pvp-oriented... nothing new here. No?
SiJira	Posted - 2007.07.05 21:10:00 - [65] carebear whine ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.05 21:26:00 - [66] eVe is going downhill? Hehehe... so unlikely. eVe is going uphill. Kieron is now a director and Wrangler is now a manager. eVe is very uphill and growing. :) CCP is 4TW. :D --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.05 21:38:00 - [67] On the topic of unconsensual killings, why do you people love to kill unconsensually? There is no fun, honor or any satisfaction killing a harmless person. Unconsensual killings are e-bullying and have no skill. Consensual killings are so unskilled. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.05 21:40:00 - [68] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire On the topic of unconsensual killings, why do you people love to kill unconsensually? There is no fun, honor or any satisfaction killing a harmless person. Unconsensual killings are e-bullying and have no skill. Consensual killings are so unskilled. You're wrong, but then you know that, don't you? - Sig restored due to awesomeness. For details respond to my e-mails >:(
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.05 21:43:00 - [69] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Jenny Spitfire On the topic of unconsensual killings, why do you people love to kill unconsensually? There is no fun, honor or any satisfaction killing a harmless person. Unconsensual killings are e-bullying and have no skill. Consensual killings are so unskilled. You're wrong, but then you know that, don't you? Why am I wrong? Are you telling me people who kill haulers or love unconsensual killings are very skillful? --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.05 21:44:00 - [70] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 05/07/2007 21:44:26 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Jenny Spitfire On the topic of unconsensual killings, why do you people love to kill unconsensually? There is no fun, honor or any satisfaction killing a harmless person. Unconsensual killings are e-bullying and have no skill. Consensual killings are so unskilled. You're wrong, but then you know that, don't you? Why am I wrong? Are you telling me people who kill haulers or love unconsensual killings are very skillful? I'm afraid I cannot judge someone's amount of skill from a random action they take, or from their preferred actions in the game. Incidentally, neither can you. - Sig restored due to awesomeness. For details respond to my e-mails >:(
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.05 21:50:00 - [71] Originally by: Crumplecorn I'm afraid I cannot judge someone's amount of skill from a random action they take, or from their preferred actions in the game. Incidentally, neither can you. That's you but I am afraid I can judge people easily by seeing what actions they take. Unconsensual killings are not skilled. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.05 21:51:00 - [72] please explain the logic behind that? Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink. Nerfageddon!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.05 21:52:00 - [73] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Crumplecorn I'm afraid I cannot judge someone's amount of skill from a random action they take, or from their preferred actions in the game. Incidentally, neither can you. That's you but I am afraid I can judge people easily by seeing what actions they take. Unconsensual killings are not skilled. Too stupid for words. - Sig restored due to awesomeness. For details respond to my e-mails >:(
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.05 21:53:00 - [74] Originally by: Tortun Nahme please explain the logic behind that? Fighting and killing people who can't fight back is skilled based? --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.05 21:53:00 - [75] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Crumplecorn I'm afraid I cannot judge someone's amount of skill from a random action they take, or from their preferred actions in the game. Incidentally, neither can you. That's you but I am afraid I can judge people easily by seeing what actions they take. Unconsensual killings are not skilled. Too stupid for words. Who? --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.05 21:54:00 - [76] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Tortun Nahme please explain the logic behind that? Fighting and killing people who can't fight back is skilled based? Doing something which isn't skill based means you are skill-less? - Sig restored due to awesomeness. For details respond to my e-mails >:(
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.05 21:55:00 - [77] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Crumplecorn I'm afraid I cannot judge someone's amount of skill from a random action they take, or from their preferred actions in the game. Incidentally, neither can you. That's you but I am afraid I can judge people easily by seeing what actions they take. Unconsensual killings are not skilled. Too stupid for words. Who? Your post. Specifically you saying you can judge people by their actions alone. Words fail me. - Sig restored due to awesomeness. For details respond to my e-mails >:(
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.05 21:57:00 - [78] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Tortun Nahme please explain the logic behind that? Fighting and killing people who can't fight back is skilled based? Doing something which isn't skill based means you are skill-less? Yes. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.05 21:59:00 - [79] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Tortun Nahme please explain the logic behind that? Fighting and killing people who can't fight back is skilled based? Doing something which isn't skill based means you are skill-less? Yes. This can be proven wrong empirically. Simply get someone with indisputably great skills (like someone who won a PvP tourney or something) to gank a hauler. A skill-less action taken by a skilled player. - Sig restored due to awesomeness. For details respond to my e-mails >:(
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:02:00 - [80] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Crumplecorn I'm afraid I cannot judge someone's amount of skill from a random action they take, or from their preferred actions in the game. Incidentally, neither can you. That's you but I am afraid I can judge people easily by seeing what actions they take. Unconsensual killings are not skilled. Too stupid for words. Who? Your post. Specifically you saying you can judge people by their actions alone. Words fail me. I was replying to your post. You couldn't judge people by their actions but I could. There is nothing wrong with how I have answered you. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:04:00 - [81] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Crumplecorn I'm afraid I cannot judge someone's amount of skill from a random action they take, or from their preferred actions in the game. Incidentally, neither can you. That's you but I am afraid I can judge people easily by seeing what actions they take. Unconsensual killings are not skilled. Too stupid for words. Who? Your post. Specifically you saying you can judge people by their actions alone. Words fail me. I was replying to your post. You couldn't judge people by their actions but I could. There is nothing wrong with how I have answered you. It's nonsense. - Sig restored due to awesomeness. For details respond to my e-mails >:(
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:09:00 - [82] Originally by: Crumplecorn This can be proven wrong empirically. Simply get someone with indisputably great skills (like someone who won a PvP tourney or something) to gank a hauler. A skill-less action taken by a skilled player. The player is forfeiting skilled-play when a non-combat ship is ganked by a combat ship. Where is there skill in killing someone who can't fight back? --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:11:00 - [83] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Crumplecorn This can be proven wrong empirically. Simply get someone with indisputably great skills (like someone who won a PvP tourney or something) to gank a hauler. A skill-less action taken by a skilled player. The player is forfeiting skilled-play when a non-combat ship is ganked by a combat ship. Where is there skill in killing someone who can't fight back? There is no skill in breathing. We all do it. Thus, we are all utterly unskilled at life. This logic is brought to you by Jenny Spitfire. - Sig restored due to awesomeness. For details respond to my e-mails >:(
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:18:00 - [84] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 05/07/2007 22:18:23 Originally by: Crumplecorn There is no skill in breathing. We all do it. Thus, we are all utterly unskilled at life. This logic is brought to you by Jenny Spitfire. Speak for yourself. There is skill in breathing. If you are skillful in breathing, you can inhale more per breath and it is something not everyone does. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Mitsuko Anari	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:20:00 - [85] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire The player is forfeiting skilled-play when a non-combat ship is ganked by a combat ship. Where is there skill in killing someone who can't fight back? Where is the skill in flying a non combat ship with zero risk? Avoiding a gank is the hallmark of a skilled pilot. EVE without risk would be the most boring MMO out there. Risk is what makes EVE great.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:22:00 - [86] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 05/07/2007 22:18:23 Originally by: Crumplecorn There is no skill in breathing. We all do it. Thus, we are all utterly unskilled at life. This logic is brought to you by Jenny Spitfire. Speak for yourself. There is skill in breathing. If you are skillful in breathing, you can inhale more per breath and it is something not everyone does. The point of logic I am trying, and apparently failing, to get across to you has nothing to do with Eve. The premise you are using does not support the conclusion you are reaching, and you cannot recognise this, thus you Fail. Due to this Failure, continuing this conversation is pointless (even by General Discussion's standards). - Sig restored due to awesomeness. For details respond to my e-mails >:(
Roger Arko Geddonites	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:32:00 - [87] Jenny even best pvpers sometimes end up in a situation when they unable to fight back and it is absolutely normal. Who told you that the pvp must be fair? World - the real one - IS unfair.
Raneru Darwin With Attitude oooh Shiny	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:44:00 - [88] Edited by: Raneru on 05/07/2007 22:44:15 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Unconsensual killings are not skilled. Catching people who do not want to be caught requires skill. Probing someone out, employing tactics like cloaking to remain hidden from potential scouts, bumping targets that cannot be warp scrambled due to stabs, fitting your ship to match your tactics. They all involve a degree of skill. They are not part of the manual when you sign up.
Opium Minmatar Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.07.06 00:05:00 - [89] 4 years ago with 2500 ppl online all the choke points were needed to push pvp oppurtunities.now with 30k plus ppl online and the same routes i traveled in beta. it is easy to see ppl'stress over there space travel. for every question in this game it comes down to just putting more gates leading in to o.0 and low sec.why have chokepoints with 30 k ppl online.more gates more patrols of o.o alliances to find ppl who are sneaking in, its great for the pvper's<me> and the carebears. give us more gates, who expects to realy go into space and they cant get spomewhere without going thru more ppl than are in newyork city? this is space, give us some space please.then i can hunt all the carebears coming into o.0.
miskagirl	Posted - 2007.07.06 00:48:00 - [90] Quote: eVe is going downhill? Hehehe... so unlikely. eVe is going uphill. Kieron is now a director and Wrangler is now a manager. eVe is very uphill and growing. :) Uphill? I would agree, but at a snails pace, eve should be ZOOMING uphill. Until the developers lock down all the gaping holes in their game mechanics that allow for such easy exploiting eve and the entire idea of going uphill at a meager 100k + subs is laughable. Proper management of eve would see it at over 500k subs and 4 servers by now.
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.06 01:50:00 - [91] Originally by: Opium 4 years ago with 2500 ppl online all the choke points were needed to push pvp oppurtunities.now with 30k plus ppl online and the same routes i traveled in beta. it is easy to see ppl'stress over there space travel. for every question in this game it comes down to just putting more gates leading in to o.0 and low sec.why have chokepoints with 30 k ppl online.more gates more patrols of o.o alliances to find ppl who are sneaking in, its great for the pvper's<me> and the carebears. give us more gates, who expects to realy go into space and they cant get spomewhere without going thru more ppl than are in newyork city? this is space, give us some space please.then i can hunt all the carebears coming into o.0. Maybe half the entrances to 0.0 are camped at any given time, and most of the time (at least when I'm on) it's only a couple. That's because most of the entrances require you to take longer routes through 0.0 which with solo cloaking dictors can be tough in a non-combat ship/fit. _____ Heat Warfare
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.07.06 02:42:00 - [92] Quote: Manufacture and research has become so difficult and unprofitable no-one bothers anymore and just goes pirate. Got a habit of picking first page comments and commenting on them today,,,, But in relation to that^^ No. Wrong. Completely incorrect. And no, I dont own a T2 BPO nor do I reside in 0.0 Improve Market Competition!
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.07.06 03:06:00 - [93] Originally by: crusader king Having only been playing the game for 6 months, I have worked my butt off trying to build up skills etc. To finally have the skills to fly a maelstrom with some credibility only to be popped by some opportunist morons who havn't a clue, is seriously demorlising. If I wanted to PvP I would have got in a Wolf and gone and done it! CCp seriously needs to decide which direction they want the game to go in. You went into low sec = You clicked OK at the warning pop up. BOO HOO HOO SKUNK Originally by: Fink Angel They acted like Mr. Creasote at the all you can eat buffet, and CCP provided the Wafer Theeen Mint.
Dane Hur Caldari x13 Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.07.06 04:20:00 - [94] Originally by: Ki An Have you ever tried scanning down a mission runner? If not, you are only going on the amount of pirates visiting you in your missions. The problem is not that it's easy to scan down a mission runner, because it's not. It's rediculously difficult and time consuming, and it is also more of a matter of chance, not so much of skill. Are you kidding me? Probing is easy, a ******** hamster can do it.
crusader king	Posted - 2007.07.06 14:40:00 - [95] Originally by: Asestorian Edited by: Asestorian on 05/07/2007 10:56:51 Originally by: crusader king CCP seriously needs to decide which direction they want the game to go in. They decided that a long time ago. Their decision was that EVE was going to allow PvP whether a person wanted to PvP or not. There was never, and probably will never be, a PvP flag that you can just turn on and off at will. If you are that worried about dying, you don't have to leave Hi-Sec space you know. Edit: And in more reply to the OP. Firstly, not everyone who PvPs is a angsty teenager who just wants to grief everyone. Some of the most successful and prominent PvPers are older, and extremely clever. The people who build the most successful alliances like BoB and MC are older, and they live for PvP in EVE. Secondly: Tech II ship prices have fallen, not risen
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.07.06 15:05:00 - [96] Originally by: Dane Hur Are you kidding me? Probing is easy, a ******** hamster can do it. I take it you don't scan down mission runners for a living then. Perhaps you should try to make a living that way for a week, and then come back here and tell us it's easy. Fact is, to have any sort of reliability when scanning you need upwards of 150 bm's in a single system. You need to be in a system where a lot of people are running missions (you know, one of those systems that have their own intel channel and defense force), you need to be able to enter the deadspace, traverse the distance to your target, tackle and destroy it, all before the blob appears. This is what probing mission runners entail. On the other hand, if you are talking about the standard "deploy probe, spam 'analyze'", then I would agree that it is simplistic. That's not what this is about, however. /Ki Joy to the world Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Billy Sastard Amarr Life. Universe. Everything. Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.06 15:06:00 - [97] Originally by: Col Kaos Several issues have forced me to start this topic and many ppl feel the same as I do with reference to the following issues. In the main, I feel that EVE has not got the balance right with regards to their gameplay. Here are the reasons: 1. Scanning into deadspace missions. This has become so easy any noob with a scan probe can find a player deadspace mission with total ease and in minutes (and I thought this had been made more difficult?). Once locked down, swarms of pirates set up for PvP head in and start killing players at will, who can do absolutely nothing about it but sit and watch their ships go pop. Is this how CCP envisioned PvP within EVE? If so, then it sucks. If I am soloing a level 4 mission my ship is set up for tanking, not PvP. One stab and that's my targetting range gone, which is yet another ridiculous/ pointless feature CCP have put in to enhance PvP and stuff up the rest of the game for others. Deadspace scanning is not a challenge at all. 2. Missions and loyalty points. Missions are fast becoming pointless endeavours, as the level 4s have become easier (therefore, less money involved), players get scanned out so easily and the standing increase you now receive is so minimal more junior players would just give up after getting no-where doing hundreds of missions and barely getting onto the next agent. Loyalty points are now also a completely pointless pursuit. After a few missions you can get just about anything on the new loyalty system and the entire market is flooded with items that had some value in the past. Nowadays, I'm not even worried about losing all my +4 implants as I could get them back in minutes doing a few missions. This is another angle of EVE that has been taken away from those older players that have spent a lot of time building standings and are starting to receive some good rewards. Then, in one patch, all that time and effort becomes meaningless. The balance has been severely lost within EVE as everything seems to be PvP focused more and more at the expense of all the other aspects. Patch after patch this seems to become more the case. No wonder tech 2 ships are becoming more and more expensive as hardly anyone can afford to produce them. Manufacture and research has become so difficult and unprofitable no-one bothers anymore and just goes pirate. I've spent most of the last 3 years I have subscribed to EVE building up my science, research and industry skills for what reason? It's so pointless now. I fully understand that EVE is trying to recruit younger subscribers by making PvP the focus but why does everyone else (usually the older and more experienced players) pursuing other aspects suffer? Gaming experience for loads of ppl has been severely reduced and if this trend continues I would probably switch over to World of Warcraft (which in my opinion is a sin but I would have no choice). Anyone else with similar gripes (and I fully expect all the pirate teenagers out there to reply with 'grow some balls' and 'try leaving the stn some time, u noob,' etc, etc.)? OK, I saw this post yesterday but did not have time to respond. First off, if you do not like the risk of lowsec then don't run missions in lowsec!!. Second, I find it extremely hard to belive that replacing a full set of +4 implants takes 'a few minutes'. from my experience, even a short lv 4 mission takes 30 minutes or so, and the short missions give buggerall for LP! You are looking at this game from a hugely skewed perspective, you talk about the balance being lost, and that things are PvP focused... Well yea! CCP made this game as a PvP game, what do you expect? Then you say T2 ships are becoming more and more expensive? I don't know where you are shopping, but in my neck of the woods, since the introduction of invention, all of the popular t2 ships have dropped in price drastically . Are we even playing the same game?? -=^=-
Araxmas The Blue Dagger Mercenery Agency	Posted - 2007.07.06 16:02:00 - [98] Originally by: Col Kaos Anyone else with similar gripes (and I fully expect all the pirate teenagers out there to reply with 'grow some balls' and 'try leaving the stn some time, u noob,' etc, etc.)? Will people stop with the teenager "noob" crap. It really is annoying. Frankly every pvper/pirate/greifer I have met is in their 30's-40's. The youngest player I know is 17 and he never uses the word noob or other such crud internet slang. The real truth from what I discoverd during one war with a corporation called ME4N CORP (the number in the name is a give away of the maturity) are from what we could tell over 22 years old with members and all we got in local when on ops was "Your a f'ing noob, we put you into the noob calculator machine and it came back telling us your noobs LOL" ...and that member was awarded the title of smack talk specialist in their corp so quite frankly they all must be a couple sandwiches short of a pic-nic. Anywho what I am basically saying is don't assume that all these "noob" "GB2 WoW" players are secondary school teenagers cause from what i've discoverd 99% aren't. -------- Robbie Rotten left me
Bryg Philomena Green Lantern Corps	Posted - 2007.07.06 16:25:00 - [99] Originally by: Dracborne Originally by: Col Kaos No wonder tech 2 ships are becoming more and more expensive as hardly anyone can afford to produce them. You do understand that this simple qoute basically burns ANY other credible statements in your post. When Hulks, which are Tech II mining barges btw, go from being ~620mil to ~135 mil and HAC's like the Vaga can be found for ~100, simply from the introduction of invention, I'd say the trend is that Tech II stuff is getting MUCH, MUCH cheaper. The only real recent Tech II ship price spike was for all the stealth bombers due to the introduction of bombs, though they've come back down to reasonable prices. That can be chalked up to good old capitalism. iirc command ships prices skyrocketed. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Am I reading this correctly? You claim you have a bug that undresses female avatars???
Divideby0 Gallente Amalgamated Industries	Posted - 2007.07.06 16:41:00 - [100] Edited by: Divideby0 on 06/07/2007 16:44:05 As someone trying to shed his carebear ways, I can see where the OP is getting at with how prohibitively dangerous lowsec has become. I've started dipping into lowsec for currier missions. I take a beater, and deck it out with WCS knowing full well i'm going to get ganked even in a system that looks empty or has no recent kills (those stats are an average and rarely accurate). It not just that everyone takes pot shots at you. I accept that danger. Its that those who do are using HACs and CNRs just to take out an Iteron. It'll be months before I can come anywhere close to returning that kind of firepower. I'm not saying this needs to be fixed, because thats how a total anarchy like Eve works. I guess there will always be those who need to use T2 weaponry against a hauler to feel good about their small manhoods. Who is the bigger carebear: The miner who braves lowsec on his own, or the "PvPer" who attacks an unarmed ship?
Tegashi	Posted - 2007.07.06 17:00:00 - [101] I've only played the game a couple of months and haven't had a problem with forced PvP, even while spending most of my time in 0.0. However, I've always felt it unethical to target players disinterested in PvP simply to destroy what they had worked hard to earn especially considering the added difficulty in trying to defend against another player while simultaneously in the midst of a PvE engagement. Where's the skill on the end of the PvP Pirate? Mission Deadspace areas should be locked for all but the mission running player/group.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.06 17:04:00 - [102] Originally by: Tegashi Mission Deadspace areas should be locked for all but the mission running player/group. Sorry, this is a MMORPG, interplayer interaction is part of the deal. snip Please follow the Forum Rules when creating signature. Email us if you have questions -Eldo ([email protected])
Tegashi	Posted - 2007.07.06 17:07:00 - [103] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Tegashi Mission Deadspace areas should be locked for all but the mission running player/group. Sorry, this is a MMORPG, interplayer interaction is part of the deal. This is not an example of player interaction, it's taking advantage of someone who has a greatly reduced chance of survival..essentially shooting fish in a barrel. Where's the skill in that?
Mitsuko Anari	Posted - 2007.07.06 17:19:00 - [104] Edited by: Mitsuko Anari on 06/07/2007 17:22:32 Originally by: Tegashi Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Tegashi Mission Deadspace areas should be locked for all but the mission running player/group. Sorry, this is a MMORPG, interplayer interaction is part of the deal. This is not an example of player interaction, it's taking advantage of someone who has a greatly reduced chance of survival..essentially shooting fish in a barrel. Where's the skill in that? Uhm, I love how people keep saying that killing non combat ships or people running missions requires no skill. Where exactly is the skill in flying a non-combat ship with no risk of getting caught by a combat ship? thats right there is none. I guess there is a small amount of skill involved with mission running but lets face it, at the end of the day it's easy to run missions. Avoiding getting ganked while running missions = skill. Hence the higher reward for running missions in low-sec space. tl:dr version: Avoiding combat ships with your carebear ship shows skill. Getting caught by combat ships in your carebear ship shows a lack of skill. :) (edited for clarity and some typo fixing :P)
Divideby0 Gallente Amalgamated Industries	Posted - 2007.07.06 17:29:00 - [105] Originally by: Mitsuko Anari Avoiding combat ships with your carebear ship shows skill. Getting caught by combat ships in your carebear ship shows a lack of skill. :) Agreed, and along those same lines: Engaging a ship or two that has a chance of actually hurting you back shows skill. Multiple ships ganging up on a single ship that cannot fight back shows a lack of skill. The mission rewards aren't that much better for couriers into lowsec. They're not like the encounters. Seriously, what are you going to do with 5000m3 of homeless anyway? Who is the bigger carebear: The miner who braves lowsec on his own, or the "PvPer" who attacks an unarmed ship?
Mitsuko Anari	Posted - 2007.07.06 17:43:00 - [106] Originally by: Divideby0 Engaging a ship or two that has a chance of actually hurting you back shows skill. Multiple ships ganging up on a single ship that cannot fight back shows a lack of skill. I agree with this to an extent. But I think most skilled pvp players don't take pride in noncombat ship ganks. They are usually made as a way to provide income or as a kill of oppurtunity. (except for tiller lol) Also it takes some degree of skill to setup a gatecamp that is impossible to get through. Also a certain amount of skill and planning invloved in probing out a mission runner. Tbh I think real skill in eve comes down to planning and execution. Making the kill isnt skillfull, setting up your ship, finding the guy, planning the camp, avoiding bait ships is skillfull. Turning on all your mods and waititng for someone to die is not skillfull :) Clicking on gates and warping to zero is not skillfull. Planning your route, gathering intel and making use of teamwork to avoid the ganks/camps shows skill. Turning on your tank and killing npc's in the right order is not really skillfull. Setting up your tank to cope, planning the right kill order, gathering intel and using the scanner to stay safe is skillfull. That is my opinion anyway. Suprise PvP adds the risk that keeps everyone on there toes. Without it EVE Online would be one great big grindfest like WoW.
Franga Caldari NQX Innovations	Posted - 2007.07.06 17:47:00 - [107] Originally by: Victor Valka Funny. PvP-ers cry that everything is done for PvE and they are getting shafted. PvE-ers cry that everything is done for PvP and they are getting shafted. From that we can deduce that balance has been reached. Kudos CCP. I would have to agree. I try not to flame - but so many people whinge about getting popped in a mission or in a belt in low-sec. I had a guy recently whine to me that it's really annoying to get all of his ore stolen and his mining barge popped after getting a few cans of jaspet in a 0.4 system. Well ... yeah. The game makes very clear that you're going into a low-security system where your safety is anything but assured. It has been this way for 3+ years and EVE continues to grow. I'm not sure they see a need to change anything here. It's simple, if you don't wish to risk your ship missioning or mining - stay in hi-sec. Even there you're not safe - but something is better then nothing. _____________________________ Eldo spanked my sig but I can't be bothered changing it just now.
Tegashi	Posted - 2007.07.06 18:17:00 - [108] Edited by: Tegashi on 06/07/2007 18:17:09 Originally by: Mitsuko Anari Edited by: Mitsuko Anari on 06/07/2007 17:22:32 Uhm, I love how people keep saying that killing non combat ships or people running missions requires no skill. Where exactly is the skill in flying a non-combat ship with no risk of getting caught by a combat ship? thats right there is none. I guess there is a small amount of skill involved with mission running but lets face it, at the end of the day it's easy to run missions. Avoiding getting ganked while running missions = skill. Hence the higher reward for running missions in low-sec space. tl:dr version: Avoiding combat ships with your carebear ship shows skill. Getting caught by combat ships in your carebear ship shows a lack of skill. :) (edited for clarity and some typo fixing :P) You either missed my point or are trying to twist my words. What I said was, there is little skill involved in engaging and killing players who are both already facing a PvE Enemy AND are not prepared/interested in also facing a plyer simultaneously. Folks who primarily hunt mission runners realize that their targets present much less of a threat and therefore take full advantage of easier marks. It's a mentality that I have seen over and over in games I've played in the past and one I will never personally be a part of.
Divideby0 Gallente Amalgamated Industries	Posted - 2007.07.06 18:28:00 - [109] Originally by: Tegashi You either missed my point or are trying to twist my words. What I said was, there is little skill involved in engaging and killing players who are both already facing a PvE Enemy AND are not prepared/interested in also facing a plyer simultaneously. Folks who primarily hunt mission runners realize that their targets present much less of a threat and therefore take full advantage of easier marks. It's a mentality that I have seen over and over in games I've played in the past and one I will never personally be a part of. Right. Those who scan out mission-runners aren't looking for a fight, they're looking to shoot people in the back. Who is the bigger carebear: The miner who braves lowsec on his own, or the "PvPer" who attacks an unarmed ship?
Sharupak Minmatar Knights Of the Black Sun	Posted - 2007.07.06 19:25:00 - [110] This is exactly what I think is cool about EVE! The only place that is truely safe is docked in a station. I plan for that type of mentality. Many times, I have two cruisers or even 3 cruisers. On a night were I go trapesing out in to lowsec and 0.0, my intentions are such that it wasnt a good night until I get pulverized. Its fun. If you arent giggleing when you get suprised 4 ships that come out of nowhere to pound you into space dust, this probably isnt the right game to play. If you guys were in my house when I play this game, you would hear this...."Oh ***! Come on...come on! Whoa!! Where are my drones!!! Holy crap that guys is doing some serious damage!!! oh no gonna die! oh no! oh no! Webbed, cant get away!!! aaaahhhhh! Ship blows up into tiny pieces* HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Sometimes I spend 15 minutes chatting a learning about what I did wrong and what this guy had to beat me! The funny thing is alot of times, I will get this response.... "Thats a good ship, I have one too, if you get a little more training in this area, then you can fit such and such. To the guy that lost his maelstrom...That really sucks...I got my typhoon around the same amount of time. I decided to take it mission running first and learned a huge lesson about the game. Your SP is your level not the ship you fly. I have put another 4 months of skill training into that BS and it is not ready to go anywhere near lowsec. If I put myself in the typhoon and fought against myself in my rupture I could totally kick my ass in the Rupture! _______________________________________________ It is people like the OPer which cause MMO games to suck because they have that "the grass is greener on the other side" syndrome so developers s

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