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Best possibel Passive Tank Ship?

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Pink Teletubby	Posted - 2007.07.05 14:39:00 - [1] Goal of this ship is to survive suicide attacks in empire. Most likly those occur while blackscreened by undocking or getting bumped while undocking... Thus as we take lag into account it has to be a passive Tank. Cargo isnt an issue as we asume we haul very expensive but low volume stuff, so any ship should do. As we haul in Empire, dont suggest Cap-Ships plz. Furthermore guns are not needed as Concord will do the killing if we are attacked. My first guess was a Drake, but I suppose there are better ships for the job :)
NoNah Marzipan Monkeys Distant Star Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.05 14:41:00 - [2] Vulture iirc. If youre really worried, look into the basilisk, remote repping is not a bad thing mkay? Post count: 773901
Alrich	Posted - 2007.07.05 14:43:00 - [3] Edited by: Alrich on 05/07/2007 14:44:41 a vulture maybe? or some cind of faction ship might be better edit: or the hulltanked domi? that one has a hell of a lot hp... remember that you only need to survive for a short time, you dont need to tank it.
Let Nelass	Posted - 2007.07.05 14:45:00 - [4] Best passive shield tank ships: Nighthawk > Vulture > Myrmidon > Drake
Pry Maraai Amarr	Posted - 2007.07.05 14:50:00 - [5] This might be the only thing a navy augoror is good at =) 40-50k or so of armor on a cruiser sized ship would take a while to kill. And with a oneiros/guardian outside the station allready it would stay alive.
NoNah Marzipan Monkeys Distant Star Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.05 14:53:00 - [6] Originally by: Let Nelass Best passive shield tank ships: Nighthawk > Vulture > Myrmidon > Drake Does the last lowslot really make that much of a difference? Note that you cannot use active harderners in this case as no modules may be activated during the black screen of death. Post count: 325127
Fenren	Posted - 2007.07.05 14:58:00 - [7] I would go for max hp instead of recharge. what non-cap ship has the largest hp? remember that damage control is useless as you cant activate a module... Originally by: CCP Ginger Hello! Ships have crews, most pod controlled frigates do not, above that they have crews of varying sizes. Hope that helps.
NoNah Marzipan Monkeys Distant Star Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.05 14:59:00 - [8] Originally by: Fenren I would go for max hp instead of recharge. what non-cap ship has the largest hp? remember that damage control is useless as you cant activate a module... Freighter. Post count: 694738
Fenren	Posted - 2007.07.05 15:01:00 - [9] Originally by: NoNah Originally by: Fenren I would go for max hp instead of recharge. what non-cap ship has the largest hp? remember that damage control is useless as you cant activate a module... Freighter. actually, that is a cap-ship... and it brings too much attention, and everyone knows exactley how much hp it will have. Originally by: CCP Ginger Hello! Ships have crews, most pod controlled frigates do not, above that they have crews of varying sizes. Hope that helps.
zwerg kleptomaniacs	Posted - 2007.07.05 15:02:00 - [10] augoror navy issue, Dark Elf's tbh 100k armor with good resists > nighthawk
NoNah Marzipan Monkeys Distant Star Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.05 15:03:00 - [11] Oh, but its not a cap ship per se. Does it require Capital ship - The skill<tm>? Can it use jump drives or jump gates? Is it allowed in highsec? What indicates that it would be a capital ship - except for the fact of advanced spaceship command? What tells you that advanced spaceship command has anything to do with capital ships? Everyone does now how much hitpoints it will have, thats quite true, but it will still be stronger than any other ship. You asked for maximal amount of HP, not for discretion. Post count: 859808
Marcus Alkhaar Conisor Excavations Syndicate Antagonistic Assembly	Posted - 2007.07.05 15:06:00 - [12] Originally by: zwerg augoror navy issue, Dark Elf's tbh 100k armor with good resists > nighthawk setup pls Originally by: Tanksmann just so you you know putting "Dev" or "Tux" in the topic probably lessens the dev attention your topic receives
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2007.07.05 15:49:00 - [13] Eos or Domi Passive shield tanking guide click here
NoNah Marzipan Monkeys Distant Star Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.05 15:56:00 - [14] Edited by: NoNah on 05/07/2007 15:57:27 Originally by: Pottsey Eos or Domi Why? Originally by: Marcus Alkhaar Originally by: zwerg augoror navy issue, Dark Elf's tbh 100k armor with good resists > nighthawk setup pls I was as sceptical as you are, decided to give it a shot in eve fitting tool, and whoa. 125k armor. 2x 1600 plates, 1x 800mm 4x Regerenative platings 3x Trimark Pump II's Slave set Akemons Does however require either a grid implant or cosmos plates to fit, or it can be replaced by a regenerative plating for 121k armor instead. Post count: 548426
Pry Maraai Amarr	Posted - 2007.07.05 15:57:00 - [15] You can get a load of HP on the navy augoror with energized regeneratgive + plates + slave set and so on. But 40-50k is a bit more realistic I guess.
Waxau Amarr Liberty Rogues Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.05 16:01:00 - [16] vultures tank is FAR better than a nighthawks - Trust me, i fly them every day, and know exactly their limits. Nighthawk exchanges its tank (in terms of a vulture) with its damage. Nighthawk tanks slightly better than a drake. Vulture tanks far better than a nighthawk. Trust me there - its experience.
NoNah Marzipan Monkeys Distant Star Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.05 16:06:00 - [17] Originally by: Waxau vultures tank is FAR better than a nighthawks - Trust me, i fly them every day, and know exactly their limits. Nighthawk exchanges its tank (in terms of a vulture) with its damage. Nighthawk tanks slightly better than a drake. Vulture tanks far better than a nighthawk. Trust me there - its experience. Question is, have you got any experience of tanking "afk" without any active module(IE harderners)? Post count: 786190
Let Nelass	Posted - 2007.07.05 18:30:00 - [18] Huh. Just ran the numbers. It seems that the Vulture's improved resistances do outweigh the Nighthawk's greater regen rate when maxing passive tank. Nighthawk 12% better vs. EM/EXP Vulture 12% better vs. Kinetic, 33% better vs. Thermal Vulture 11% better avg.
Judas Lonestar Ganja Labs Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.05 18:34:00 - [19] I use a Drake with very good success. If you dont load up the highs with gear you could put any type of tank you wanted on it without a second thought. Then again, I'm Caldari spec so I gotta play the cards I'm dealt.
NoNah Marzipan Monkeys Distant Star Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.05 18:41:00 - [20] Originally by: Judas Lonestar I use a Drake with very good success. If you dont load up the highs with gear you could put any type of tank you wanted on it without a second thought. Then again, I'm Caldari spec so I gotta play the cards I'm dealt. No offense, but dare I ask if you understood the question correctly? Seeing how the highs have no purpose what so ever in this scenario, and its a very rare scenario. Have you ever set up your drake to tank while you're hauling - with no control over your ship? Thus no invulnerability fields, no harderners no... you get the point. Post count: 889415
Lux Exterior	Posted - 2007.07.05 19:23:00 - [21] Rattlesnake has THE most godly non-capital passive shield tank (if money is no object).
NoNah Marzipan Monkeys Distant Star Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.05 19:32:00 - [22] Originally by: Lux Exterior Rattlesnake has THE most godly non-capital passive shield tank (if money is no object). Sounds quite likely, though, I don't suppose you would care to share the setup? Some numbers etc? Post count: 302059
Sedai Hara Caldari The Forsakened Companions Storm Armada	Posted - 2007.07.05 19:47:00 - [23] Vulture end of story Nothing keeps up with its insane HP, insane resist (gang modules), and insane recharger. Prob is it cant do much else than tank in passive mode. but no ship is near that tank, no the NH/Drake looses bigtime against it, i fly all 3 and i know their limitations. Want to tank? get a pimped vulture, nothing beats that in passive mode. ----------------------------- Originally by: Ozzie Asrail A mega without 3 magstabs fitted is like kladdkaka without chocolate. Kladdkaka = Chocolate cake fyi. Swede ftw!
NoNah Marzipan Monkeys Distant Star Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.05 20:30:00 - [24] Originally by: Sedai Hara Nothing keeps up with its insane HP, insane resist (gang modules), and insane recharger. Prob is it cant do much else than tank in passive mode. but no ship is near that tank, no the NH/Drake looses bigtime against it, i fly all 3 and i know their limitations. Want to tank? get a pimped vulture, nothing beats that in passive mode. How do you utilize the gang modules on the vulture, if you cant activate modules? What else is there to do but tank, in the given scenario? Have you compared it to the Rattlesnake? At what kind of dps would it pass the augoror for example, in tanking, seeing how most suicide ganks reach pretty high dps, and often use pretty big guns - blaster domis or torp ravens, perhaps sig radius is quite important? Post count: 373948
Lux Exterior	Posted - 2007.07.05 21:00:00 - [25] Rattlesnake: 1 x LSE2, 3 x Shield Recharger 2, T2 Photon and Heat Resistance Amps 6 x SPR2 3 x CDFP 19218 Shield in 114 seconds with no hardwiring or gang boni. The Vulture has much higher resists but cannot get close on recharge (170 seconds) and requires 4 x LSE2 to get similar hitpoints, but I concede that it is a very close run thing and the resists may just tip the scales in the Vultures favour. But if you can shoot back then I'd take the Rattlesnake any day.
Let Nelass	Posted - 2007.07.05 21:17:00 - [26] Well, I'm not going to touch sig radius calculations with a 10-foot pole, seeing as we don't know the oppositin. But here is the pure raw passive tanking data on the three contenders... Using T2 set ups, all lows SPR II, including rigs T2, maxed skills and +5 shield hp and recharge implant (only passive mods): Vulture: 2x shield recharge II, 4x LSE II Nighthawk: 1x shield recharge II, 3x LSE II Rattlesnake: 5x shield recharge II; 1x LSE II Vulture: Max rep, 371.3 Type: Resist: Tankable DPS: EM: 25% 495.07 EXP: 70% 1237.67 KIN: 77.5% 1650.22 THER: 85% 2475.33 Nighthawk: Max rep, 415.29 Type: Resist: Tankable DPS: EM: 25% 553.72 EXP: 70% 1384.3 KIN: 71.88% 1479.85 THER: 77.5% 1845.73 Rattlesnake: Max rep, 785.18 Type: Resist: Tankable DPS: EM: 0% 785.18 EXP: 60% 1962.95 KIN: 40% 1308.63 THER: 20% 981.475 And the winner is (drumroll) The Vulture! Although there is no huge difference between them.
Warrio Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.05 21:20:00 - [27] I swear, only about 3 people who replied to this topic actually even looked at the OP's question. Sig removed due to being too freaking awsome. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Deckard Cain
NoNah Marzipan Monkeys Distant Star Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.05 21:33:00 - [28] Great, you have the regeneration rates, you do however not enlist the total amount of hitpoints. Unlike missions, this scenario really requires to survive for a while, not permanently. This is why the Navy Augoror actually is a viable choise. 200k armor is quite alot, even if you have no regen. So if the rattlesnake carries 20k shield, say that the opposition do 3-4k dps, 30% avg resists, so in practice the rattlesnake is actually worse off, according to the numbers presented in the thread. Obviously if the less damage they deal, the more important shield recharge will become. 20k dps and theyd alpha the shield recharge to zero anyway. =) Also note that even though active harderners are pointless, there are passive ones wich might be handy. Just might. Post count: 125772
Let Nelass	Posted - 2007.07.05 21:57:00 - [29] Heh. I never even considered passive hardeners As for hp tanking... I left it out on purpose. As long as you stick with purely how much dps you can absorb, it's a nice simple equation. We all get to be a little lazy sometimes...
Lux Exterior	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:15:00 - [30] Originally by: NoNah Great, you have the regeneration rates, you do however not enlist the total amount of hitpoints. Unlike missions, this scenario really requires to survive for a while, not permanently. This is why the Navy Augoror actually is a viable choise. 200k armor is quite alot, even if you have no regen. So if the rattlesnake carries 20k shield, say that the opposition do 3-4k dps, 30% avg resists, so in practice the rattlesnake is actually worse off, according to the numbers presented in the thread. Obviously if the less damage they deal, the more important shield recharge will become. 20k dps and theyd alpha the shield recharge to zero anyway. =) Also note that even though active harderners are pointless, there are passive ones wich might be handy. Just might. It's a fair point, but you could just swap all the T2 cap rechargers on the Rattlesnake for more LSE2's and build a much bigger HP pool without sacrificing much recharge, 200k armour sounds a lot, but with no recharge your lifespan is decidedly finite. Unless the enemy are doing really silly DPS then the shield tank simply won't break, remember recharge doesn't peak until around 30% shields when it is around 2.5 times faster than base.
Litus Arowar Amarr Obsidian Asylum Pure.	Posted - 2007.07.05 23:36:00 - [31] Edited by: Litus Arowar on 06/07/2007 00:00:42 Originally by: Lux Exterior Originally by: NoNah Great, you have the regeneration rates, you do however not enlist the total amount of hitpoints. Unlike missions, this scenario really requires to survive for a while, not permanently. This is why the Navy Augoror actually is a viable choise. 200k armor is quite alot, even if you have no regen. So if the rattlesnake carries 20k shield, say that the opposition do 3-4k dps, 30% avg resists, so in practice the rattlesnake is actually worse off, according to the numbers presented in the thread. Obviously if the less damage they deal, the more important shield recharge will become. 20k dps and theyd alpha the shield recharge to zero anyway. =) Also note that even though active harderners are pointless, there are passive ones wich might be handy. Just might. It's a fair point, but you could just swap all the T2 cap rechargers on the Rattlesnake for more LSE2's and build a much bigger HP pool without sacrificing much recharge, 200k armour sounds a lot, but with no recharge your lifespan is decidedly finite. Unless the enemy are doing really silly DPS then the shield tank simply won't break, remember recharge doesn't peak until around 30% shields when it is around 2.5 times faster than base. it's not that hard to imagine a suicide ganksquad doing over 2K DPS... and that'd beat the above listed rattlesnake's shield tank against explosive damage... I'd definitely go for the navy augoror, if for no other reason then because it's simply dead sexy... I mean it's the coolest green ever oh and suggestion: sticking a single A-type EANM on there is probably more worth it than 1 more regenerative... according to my math it's a sliver better with level 5 in armor compensations, so maybe it's not what interests you, but yeah, it can give you a tiny little boost EVE Acronym Guide
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2007.07.06 06:13:00 - [32] öWhy?ö The Eos can tank way over 3000dps with the right modules, no one expects a domi or Eos to be passive tanked and be used as a cargo ship. So when a suicide gang hits you they underestimate how much they need to deal and deal the wrong damage type. A lot of people wonÆt even bother scanning the Domi or Eos. The Domi has tons of low slots for PDS then add 3 extender rigs with 5% hitpoints implant. Have a alt or gang member to fly with you for another 15% from mindlink. Stealth is part of the key. DonÆt take a ship gankers are looking for. Passive shield tanking guide click here
NoNah Marzipan Monkeys Distant Star Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.06 06:22:00 - [33] Originally by: Pottsey Stealth is part of the key. DonÆt take a ship gankers are looking for. Which is why posted this thread, its all an evil scheme so that all suicide gankers are in here reading up on what ship hell be flying before undocking his itty hauling all the t2 bpo's away. Once again, I love the figures, but 3000 dps sounds like an awful lot, for a passive tank. Seeing how that beats all the aforementioned ships. Post count: 958471
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2007.07.06 06:28:00 - [34] Well I am estimating numbers and it depends on damage type used. My Eos in a gang tanks over 3000dps and I donÆt use up every slot for tanking. So I assume if you use up every slot it but not in a gang it should stay around that level. Though I do use 1 expensive module. Not got time to run numbers. Still I donÆt think tankable DPS is what matters go for max hitpoints. Use extneders over purger rigs and PDS over SPRÆs. It lowers tankable DPS but boosts hitpoints a lot. The OP mentions WE a lot so I assume gang flying for extra bonusÆs is ok. Passive shield tanking guide click here
OeOeOeOeO	Posted - 2007.07.06 06:54:00 - [35] lol i love u pottsey ur logic is AMAZING cus it's always right. --------- Don't try to shoot me down because i'm bullet proof. IF everyone in Eve-Online thought like Pottsey the game would be double as good!
Great Artista Caldari Purple Cloud	Posted - 2007.07.06 07:09:00 - [36] Originally by: OeOeOeOeO lol i love u pottsey ur logic is AMAZING cus it's always right. Jesus Just stop this alt posting _______ Great Artista Co-CEO My opinions are mine and they are the right ones. Bye.
OeOeOeOeO	Posted - 2007.07.06 07:11:00 - [37] Originally by: Great Artista Originally by: OeOeOeOeO lol i love u pottsey ur logic is AMAZING cus it's always right. Jesus Just stop this alt posting haha main is called XGS Crimson, but he has account issues so i can't post on him. --------- Don't try to shoot me down because i'm bullet proof. IF everyone in Eve-Online thought like Pottsey the game would be double as good! DUE TO ACCOUNT ISSUES I R POSTING ON
Ulii	Posted - 2007.07.06 08:21:00 - [38] READ THE OP!!! I really dont think that hulltankers will be viable... on resist makes it quite useless... the rules of this post is: no activation of modules, best survivability until CONCORD arrives. maybe the ability to survive multiple suicide ganks should be taken into account. the alfa strike of a suicide gank can be made HUGE! it will break ANY shieldtank it will destroy most armourtanks and will most likely put you in hull no matter your tank. that 120k armour one seems viable. can it fit any medslot shield modules too? the idea is to get the gankers to use insignificant ammount of ships, thus failing in their gank. all the ships will be gankable, no matter what we come up with.
NoNah Marzipan Monkeys Distant Star Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.06 08:32:00 - [39] You can tweak it quite a bit, grid is the major issue, and you would probably do good in avoiding extenders, which leaves well.. even if the fitting could allow it.. not much. Harderners perhaps. ECM bursts and a booster could be useful afterwards, but in direct effect, well, no. Post count: 577622
Gefex Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.06 08:58:00 - [40] Battleships would be too slow if your hauling stuff surely? I'd just go with the old classic. Drake 6 x Large Shield Extender II 4 x Shield Power Relay II 3 x Core Defence Field Purger I 25462 shield, 397.51 dp/s regen, E/T/K/Ex=20/35/51/67 Cheap and cheerful
Not Bait	Posted - 2007.07.06 09:31:00 - [41] The massive HP Navy Aug has the best chance. You really don't want to take a passive shield tank up against a serious suicide gank crew. Your peak recharge can be bypassed very quickly, leaving you with a very weak tank.
Gibbal Slogspit Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.07.06 10:03:00 - [42] Originally by: Not Bait The massive HP Navy Aug has the best chance. You really don't want to take a passive shield tank up against a serious suicide gank crew. Your peak recharge can be bypassed very quickly, leaving you with a very weak tank. A Navy Auguror will also draw attention, which I dont think the original poster wants.
Ayumi Fargazer	Posted - 2007.07.06 10:20:00 - [43] following pottseys idea this fitting gives: Domi 5* LSE II 6* Reinforced Bulkhead II 1* DCU II 3* Core Defense Field Extender II Rig ~32k Shield 7.8k armor 31.6k Hull... With the 40k armor and shield you should have enough time to activate the DCU provided you dont slowboat completely afk...
DJ P	Posted - 2007.07.06 11:02:00 - [44] First we should consider 3 things. a) Don't use Jita so you will not have lag when you come out of a station. b) Don't afk travel with valuable cargo no matter how far it is. c) A suicide gang might fail the first time they hit your Navy Augoror with 200k armour, but not the second. After that is matter of how deep your pockets are and if you can afford to lose your items. Consider the option of making a contract to transfer the goods.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2007.07.06 11:50:00 - [45] "You really don't want to take a passive shield tank up against a serious suicide gank crew. Your peak recharge can be bypassed very quickly, leaving you with a very weak tank." Passive tanking is the only option against a serious suicide gank. Active tanks donÆt stand a chance. The best option is to build a passive tank based on hitpoints. So no purger rigs or SPRÆs. Just pick the passive tank that suits you the most or mix. This is one rare case where mixed tanks work. The 3 options are shield and amour, shield and hull or shield and shield. Low/Mid slots. öI really dont think that hulltankers will be viable... on resist makes it quite useless...ö ItÆs not that bad something like 60% to all resistance. I know the OP didnÆt want active modules but 1 module boosts your amour, shield hitpoints and hull and even with lag thereÆs lots of time to turn it on. ôBattleships would be too slow if your hauling stuff surely?ö Warp to 0km makes them fast. Perhaps not for afk hauling but your crazy to afk haul costly items. If your using warp to 0km its hard for someone to lock, scan and call in reinforcements. More so if your not using a common ship for hauling as they have to pick you out of the list. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Zhoorg	Posted - 2007.07.06 15:16:00 - [46] Geddon 6x1600 RT Plates 2xEANM II 3x Trimark I 3x LSE II Somewhere around 217k effective HP w/LG Slaves + 3% HP
Draghkar Minmatar	Posted - 2007.07.06 15:51:00 - [47] Originally by: Gefex Battleships would be too slow if your hauling stuff surely? I'd just go with the old classic. Drake 6 x Large Shield Extender II 4 x Shield Power Relay II 3 x Core Defence Field Purger I 25462 shield, 397.51 dp/s regen, E/T/K/Ex=20/35/51/67 Cheap and cheerful I use a T2 Invuln and two T2 Shield Rechargers. My resists are far better and my regen is 382 compared to ur 397 :p
hUssmann Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.07.06 16:04:00 - [48] Originally by: Zhoorg Geddon 6x1600 RT Plates 2xEANM II 3x Trimark I 3x LSE II Somewhere around 217k effective HP w/LG Slaves + 3% HP With low grades?! Ginger Magician > You are merely an effective ganker of haulers who runs at the first sign of combat.
Pry Maraai Amarr	Posted - 2007.07.06 16:05:00 - [49] Originally by: Draghkar Originally by: Gefex Battleships would be too slow if your hauling stuff surely? I'd just go with the old classic. Drake 6 x Large Shield Extender II 4 x Shield Power Relay II 3 x Core Defence Field Purger I 25462 shield, 397.51 dp/s regen, E/T/K/Ex=20/35/51/67 Cheap and cheerful I use a T2 Invuln and two T2 Shield Rechargers. My resists are far better and my regen is 382 compared to ur 397 :p No activated modules. I wouldnt call the T2 invulnability fields 1% increase in resists "far better".
Pry Maraai Amarr	Posted - 2007.07.06 16:22:00 - [50] Originally by: Zhoorg Geddon 6x1600 RT Plates 2xEANM II 3x Trimark I 3x LSE II Somewhere around 217k effective HP w/LG Slaves + 3% HP True, same setup on a abaddon would give over 300k effective. And allmost 370k effective with top implants...
TimMc The Caldari Confederation	Posted - 2007.07.06 16:42:00 - [51] Highest peaks (using all meds with LSEII, all lows with SPRII, all purger rigs and the 3% implants. Shield Management and Operation at level 5): Drake - 392.6 shield/s, Average 605 dps at Battlecruiser 5 Myrmidon - 565.5 shield/s, Average 709 dps Ishtar - 317 shield/s, Average 479 dps Eos - 331.8 shield/s, Average 501 dps Vulture - 409.2 shield/s, Average 708 dps Nighthawlk - 362.1 shield/s, Average 638 dps Dominix - 438.9 shield/s, Average 570 dps Oh course these values are based on base damage being equal to the specific damages. Drones do only specific damage so you could take more damage than listed. The Vulture may appear slightly worse than Myrmidon, but in reality its better because of the fact stated before.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2007.07.06 16:58:00 - [52] ôNo activated modules. I wouldnt call the T2 invulnability fields 1% increase in resists "far better".ö If you train up the passive skills it might have its use. You can boost it by more then 1% to all in passive mode. Nice if thereÆs lag and if no lag you get chance for a bigger boost. Still not sure itÆs the best option. Passive shield tanking guide click here

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