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LP Stores: Valueable resource or yet another nerf to mission runners?

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Scrutt5 Visual I.D GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.07.15 11:54:00 - [31] Edited by: Scrutt5 on 15/07/2007 12:02:59 Oops Double post
Don't Panic Rest home for Tired Seadogs	Posted - 2007.07.15 13:22:00 - [32] Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: Savere THIS MEANS THAT LP'S HAVE SUFFERED A 7x LOSS IN VALUE! this is done entirely by players deciding how much to sell their LP Store rewards for. The reason the Isk/LP ratio has got so low is that players are undercutting their competition and, in the process, undervaluing their resources, which is entirely their prerogative in a free-market system. You are wrong. The players can only sell their goods for what the market dictates. More of a product available relative to the demand = lower price. The players can do nothing about this, only CCP. If I choose to sell my goods at double the market value to value my LP higher would mean it wouldn't sell, and my LP would be worth 0. In a big and dynamic ecosystem like the EVE market, a single individual can not dictate the price, and for the entire player mass to dictate the price, the player mass would have to be coherent and cooperative, which will never happen. So in short, the sellers are totally at the mercy of CCP who regulate supply (increasing or decreasing availability) and demand (nerfing/boosting items and introducing new items). Incresing the supply will INEVITABLY lower the price. You cannot fight the supply and demand principle!
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.07.15 13:34:00 - [33] Originally by: Don't Panic Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: Savere THIS MEANS THAT LP'S HAVE SUFFERED A 7x LOSS IN VALUE! this is done entirely by players deciding how much to sell their LP Store rewards for. The reason the Isk/LP ratio has got so low is that players are undercutting their competition and, in the process, undervaluing their resources, which is entirely their prerogative in a free-market system. You are wrong. The players can only sell their goods for what the market dictates. More of a product available relative to the demand = lower price. The players can do nothing about this, only CCP. If I choose to sell my goods at double the market value to value my LP higher would mean it wouldn't sell, and my LP would be worth 0. In a big and dynamic ecosystem like the EVE market, a single individual can not dictate the price, and for the entire player mass to dictate the price, the player mass would have to be coherent and cooperative, which will never happen. So in short, the sellers are totally at the mercy of CCP who regulate supply (increasing or decreasing availability) and demand (nerfing/boosting items and introducing new items). Incresing the supply will INEVITABLY lower the price. You cannot fight the supply and demand principle! What you can do is to NOT accept offers you think are giving you less than you deserve. You can't do anything about undercutting each other really until price will get as low as it can due to competition. reason for low implant prices are not agent offers but fact that they drop from some missions or are storyline rewards so people will get them and figure 'meh might as well get something for it'. So if people actually accept non hardwiring implants for their LP and whine about 'good old days' they are just failing to adabt. Go accept something else. And I dont mean faction battleships either as everyone and his dog seems to be selling those under their 'build price'. If all else fails then go for nexsus chips. It cant get any easier. Take them, drag to npc, press sell and you WILL get 1000 isk /LP. You can quite easily move several million LP worth of those in frigate.
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.07.15 13:57:00 - [34] It makes sense that implants have taken another price hit. They do regularly and frankly I'm glad since it means newbies do have a slight edge. The reason it makes sense here though is that attribute enhancing implants are the one commodity that is available from all lp stores. I note several of my pile of once-worthless skill hardwirings are now valuable. The pattern I notice is that better profit can be gained from things that only a few corps provide. Certain hardwirings, advanced connections books etc. These are still decent earners in my part of space and probably in yours too. Now if I could just get some more of the right tags... ----- Currently playing: Hello Kitty Online Character: Evil Kitty of DEATH
Matriarch Prime	Posted - 2007.07.15 13:59:00 - [35] I just came back to the game after a long break and I think the LP store is fantastic. I do have a small descrepancy that I've noticed though. I had a discussion on corp chat about it, so I decided to mention here. Which may or may not be the best place. Many of the faction modules are overpriced for their value. For instance, the Republic Fleet 650 Artillery costs 21000 LP, 8,4M isk, 1 650 Artillery Cannon I, 114 Amarr Navy Major Insignia I, and 19 Amarr Navy Insignia. This is a somewhat mid-tier item, smaller guns are a little less, larger guns a little more. LP cost is a bit high IMO, but not prohibitive to the determined player. Look at the small turrets though. They aren't much less cost. The only people buying this stuff gonna be seasoned players pimping a frigate with LP they earned in a level 4 missions in thier BS. Which brings me to the next point. T2 is way cheaper, and better performing since it is effected by spec skills. So who's using this stuff? I can't imagine many seasoned pilots not having the skills to fit the T2 stuff, which is about the only reason you'd want faction gear. The way it is currently, its easier to train for T2 than it is to try and obtain this gear. Unless, ofcourse, you have way more money than skill, read: twink alt. The isk cost? Well, I'm not a fan of it. Its just one more reason why faction modules don't stack up. By itself, I could care less if their is an isk requirement. Lastly, everyone's favorite. The tags seem a little excessive for the drop rate. I keep saying it, but you know it all adds up to being completely useless for someone who might have used some of the modules offered. I like the idea of the store, but I think either the modules need a boost, or some of the costs adjusted before I'll touch anything but the implants. Is there something I missed, because otherwise, I don't see the use for most of the gear thats offered. Training a skill is much much easier than meeting most of the offers I've looked at.
Don't Panic Rest home for Tired Seadogs	Posted - 2007.07.15 14:42:00 - [36] Originally by: Carniflex Originally by: Don't Panic Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: Savere THIS MEANS THAT LP'S HAVE SUFFERED A 7x LOSS IN VALUE! this is done entirely by players deciding how much to sell their LP Store rewards for. The reason the Isk/LP ratio has got so low is that players are undercutting their competition and, in the process, undervaluing their resources, which is entirely their prerogative in a free-market system. You are wrong. The players can only sell their goods for what the market dictates. More of a product available relative to the demand = lower price. The players can do nothing about this, only CCP. If I choose to sell my goods at double the market value to value my LP higher would mean it wouldn't sell, and my LP would be worth 0. In a big and dynamic ecosystem like the EVE market, a single individual can not dictate the price, and for the entire player mass to dictate the price, the player mass would have to be coherent and cooperative, which will never happen. So in short, the sellers are totally at the mercy of CCP who regulate supply (increasing or decreasing availability) and demand (nerfing/boosting items and introducing new items). Incresing the supply will INEVITABLY lower the price. You cannot fight the supply and demand principle! What you can do is to NOT accept offers you think are giving you less than you deserve. You can't do anything about undercutting each other really until price will get as low as it can due to competition. reason for low implant prices are not agent offers but fact that they drop from some missions or are storyline rewards so people will get them and figure 'meh might as well get something for it'. So if people actually accept non hardwiring implants for their LP and whine about 'good old days' they are just failing to adabt. Go accept something else. And I dont mean faction battleships either as everyone and his dog seems to be selling those under their 'build price'. If all else fails then go for nexsus chips. It cant get any easier. Take them, drag to npc, press sell and you WILL get 1000 isk /LP. You can quite easily move several million LP worth of those in frigate. Yeah, going for Nexus chips is soooooooo easy... except that they are NOT OFFERED in many/most corps. Only non-combat corps as far as I understand, and those are the least popular ones. They're certainly not available in my shop. As for your other points, I was just commenting on the CCP statement that "players are stupid who sell low", when they can't really control the price at all.
ZenTex Trade and Research Technologies	Posted - 2007.07.15 15:47:00 - [37] Originally by: "Dont panic" As for your other points, I was just commenting on the CCP statement that "players are stupid who sell low", when they can't really control the price at all. Ummm. The players ARE the market. Infact, I 100% agree with CCP Greyscale. Seing the prices have dropped, I havent taken any LP's out of the store for sale, only for my own use and I won't until the prices go back to a decent price. If not, 'll take advantage of the low prices and pimp myself/my ship. There's little a sledgehammer can't fix. If you can't fix it, you need a bigger sledgehammer. If it's unfixable, blame CCP. :p
Don't Panic Rest home for Tired Seadogs	Posted - 2007.07.15 16:17:00 - [38] Originally by: ZenTex Originally by: "Dont panic" As for your other points, I was just commenting on the CCP statement that "players are stupid who sell low", when they can't really control the price at all. Ummm. The players ARE the market. Infact, I 100% agree with CCP Greyscale. Seing the prices have dropped, I havent taken any LP's out of the store for sale, only for my own use and I won't until the prices go back to a decent price. If not, 'll take advantage of the low prices and pimp myself/my ship. Ummm. The players make up the market, but they ARE NOT the market. The market is a big mass of players who don't cooperate. You can't say "OK, everybody raise the price on Item X", and then expect the price to to up. It doesn't work that way. If an item doesn't sell, the price will be lowered until it sells, until it's no longer worth the trouble (in your case, you're waiting for better prices). It's controlled by supply and demand, which in turn is regulated by CCP. Blaming the players is futile and meaningless. They only follow the rules CCP lay down.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.07.15 16:27:00 - [39] Originally by: Don't Panic It's controlled by supply and demand, which in turn is regulated by CCP. Blaming the players is futile and meaningless. They only follow the rules CCP lay down. There's no rule saying people have to take the offers that aren't worth diddly. Yet people in masses are doing so. You're smart enough not to do so obviously, so why complain when you could be profiting? * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.15 18:59:00 - [40] I noticed people saying "I had got plenty of tags from missions, sad I have sold them (or the character)". Well; i have runned missions against Amarr and caldari for more than 1 year, almost never sold tags, and the end results is that I have the tags to buy 1 missile launcher for the Minmatar store (size almost not matter, as I willnot have enough major tags for a second) and 1 railgun or blaster from the Gallente stores. End of 1 year of tags colelcting. I will still have my 5 Buck turgidson tags, ane plenty of amarr or caldari generals, but I will not have the tags to buy some lower level offer. And level 1-2 missions don't drop enough of them to ever cover even a small percentagbe of the needed tags (and from the reports, the level 5 mission aren't dropping them, too). Until CCP introduce the faction war missions, the faction gear will stay mostily sitting in the LP stores, getting dusty.
Nabar Phargal Gallente Anqara Expeditions The OSS	Posted - 2007.07.15 19:24:00 - [41] Since the introduction of the LP store I have picked up enough tags to get 2 cruise missle launcher BPC, a Ballistic control system bpc, and still have a bunch left over.
Isan Danderoda Strix Armaments and Defence Acheron Federation	Posted - 2007.07.15 21:03:00 - [42] The big thing I've learned from the LP store is that now LP's have dropped in value and tags have gone up. Seeing as the only source of tags is missions I don't entirely see where we're losing out here. Plus those of us who do a lot of missions generally aren't hurting for cash anyway. :)
wappy Gallente NEXUS CLOUD	Posted - 2007.07.16 07:28:00 - [43] If you are looking for the low lvl tags you might wanna try to run low lvl 0.0 missions. These missions do drop the midshipmand and captain tags. But yes there is some risk included and most 0.0 mission runners sell their tags to the corp they are running missions for to get isk as Navy ships have no bounties. But you could try and set up some buy orders in pirate NPC stations. If you give more for a tag then the NPC's you will find your buy orders filled quickly.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.07.16 08:50:00 - [44] Originally by: Isan Danderoda The big thing I've learned from the LP store is that now LP's have dropped in value and tags have gone up. Seeing as the only source of tags is missions I don't entirely see where we're losing out here. Plus those of us who do a lot of missions generally aren't hurting for cash anyway. :) As many players already said, if you think the LP value has decreased with the LP store, you're doing something wrong. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.16 08:52:00 - [45] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 16/07/2007 08:53:33 Originally by: Nabar Phargal Since the introduction of the LP store I have picked up enough tags to get 2 cruise missle launcher BPC, a Ballistic control system bpc, and still have a bunch left over. And you are hunting what and where? True, I do usually 1-2 missions every day, and I see there is people doing 6 or more in 1 afternoon, but most of them don't salvage. Can you give us a rough estimate of the number and level of the missions you have run to get those tags? and the number of hours?
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.16 08:53:00 - [46] Originally by: Isan Danderoda The big thing I've learned from the LP store is that now LP's have dropped in value and tags have gone up. Seeing as the only source of tags is missions I don't entirely see where we're losing out here. Plus those of us who do a lot of missions generally aren't hurting for cash anyway. :)
Anacrit Mc'Sinister	Posted - 2007.07.16 09:29:00 - [47] Why is everone so happy with LP store in the first place. i think its a step towards a neat nice WORLD OF WARCRAFT! - you won so many capture the flag games - you can now get a nice shiny helmet with your tokens. Old system was better .There was a better veriety of offers - you didnt know what you were going to get...you could have been wery lucky and got some thing really rare an expecive .infact i would have prefered to see offers to go that way. more variables efecting what you will get.
dktest	Posted - 2007.07.16 10:01:00 - [48] One of the offers used to be in previous agent-based system, was the offer to exchange LPs with ISKs. It was not very common but it existed. I can't find such a trade in the new LP Store system. i think it would be nice to be added. This way also, it removes the fact that i have to pay ISK also along with the LPs for a trade (ie if i don't have the ISK requirement but much more LPs i could "change" LPs to ISK and then get the stuff).
Bakatu Kat Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.07.16 10:06:00 - [49] I think the tags are really big problem. 400-500 tags (of the same kind) for item is ... madness? I run lev 4's all day long (after a regular 8 hours of work). Im able to do 3-6 missions (depends on complexity). I'll not be able to get those damned tags in 1 year and its only for 1 item . So maybe CCP should introduce some kind of add on to lp store. Like tag exchange: some very low lp cost or isk cost to change tag for another and some ratios for higher-lower level tags. Still we will have to make missons but avaliability of items will go up a bit. "[Being Minmatar is] like going down a flight of stairs in a office chair firing an Uzi" -- Axitikus
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.07.16 10:32:00 - [50] Originally by: Bakatu Kat I think the tags are really big problem. 400-500 tags (of the same kind) for item is ... madness? I run lev 4's all day long (after a regular 8 hours of work). Im able to do 3-6 missions (depends on complexity). I'll not be able to get those damned tags in 1 year and its only for 1 item . So maybe CCP should introduce some kind of add on to lp store. Like tag exchange: some very low lp cost or isk cost to change tag for another and some ratios for higher-lower level tags. Still we will have to make missons but avaliability of items will go up a bit. Tags are supposed to come from lev 5 missions. If thats you are after then you are doing wrong missions in lev 4. If you just want to get the offer then buy the tags from lev 5 missionsrunner.
Bakatu Kat Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.07.16 11:16:00 - [51] Edited by: Bakatu Kat on 16/07/2007 11:23:18 Edited by: Bakatu Kat on 16/07/2007 11:21:13 Originally by: Carniflex Originally by: Bakatu Kat I think the tags are really big problem. 400-500 tags (of the same kind) for item is ... madness? I run lev 4's all day long (after a regular 8 hours of work). Im able to do 3-6 missions (depends on complexity). I'll not be able to get those damned tags in 1 year and its only for 1 item . So maybe CCP should introduce some kind of add on to lp store. Like tag exchange: some very low lp cost or isk cost to change tag for another and some ratios for higher-lower level tags. Still we will have to make missons but avaliability of items will go up a bit. Tags are supposed to come from lev 5 missions. If thats you are after then you are doing wrong missions in lev 4. If you just want to get the offer then buy the tags from lev 5 missionsrunner. Are we talking about the same thing? Those shiny little tablets that say for example "Caldari navy [insert rank]" or "amarr navy [insert rank]" or "angel [insert metal/precious metal/whatever else]. Those are tags for me and i dont need to run lev 5 missions to get them. I've run lev 4's and have some of them but 400-500 of the same type is still A LOT of time and effort. edit: just checked database. tags and insignias... Thats what im talking about "[Being Minmatar is] like going down a flight of stairs in a office chair firing an Uzi" -- Axitikus
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.07.16 11:32:00 - [52] Yes we are talking about same gadgets. They do drop in lev 4 missions (and lower levels also) in some missions. As I understand (have not tried lev 5 myself) all missions at level 5 do not have bounties but have tags/insignias instead. So no wonder it takes year to get enough of them in lev 4 missions. I have accepted several offers taking them (5x run BPC for BCU, 14x missile launchers) and I have had no problems buying them from market. If that would be true that it's impossible to get them then there would not be any of those left in market.
Bakatu Kat Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.07.16 11:55:00 - [53] Edited by: Bakatu Kat on 16/07/2007 12:02:01 Edited by: Bakatu Kat on 16/07/2007 12:01:04 The thing is they drop. But the rate is sooooo low. i have many generals and other high end but those low end are pain in the a** (the drop rate is the almost the same for midshipman and general in lev 4's). Some kind of trade-in should be possible in game with npc's. not just buy-sell on the market. Thats my proposition for add-on to lp store. Also exchange of other tags for those i need should be possible ... for some reduced price/ratio of course, so that ppl that want to trade them on market get more isks but loose some time edit: the thing is you cant spend lp's if you dont have the tags and the tag drop ratio is lower then lp rewards. AND IM NOT SAYING ANYONE [CCP] SHOULD CHANGE THE LP REWARDS IN LEV 4'S !!!! THEY ARE JUST FINE :) "[Being Minmatar is] like going down a flight of stairs in a office chair firing an Uzi" -- Axitikus
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.07.16 12:11:00 - [54] I have found myself wondering if the tag requirement is a prelude to factional warfare. Think about it. Need a few more tags? Take a flight through enemy space and pick some up. ----- Currently playing: Hello Kitty Online Character: Evil Kitty of DEATH
Bakatu Kat Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.07.16 12:37:00 - [55] The problem is: where are you going to find navy tags. there are no rats like this so its "mission only" tags. Concord guards all the empire, you dont have much chance against customs services (they are "faction" if i remember right), and rats are pirate factions. No navy anywhere ... "[Being Minmatar is] like going down a flight of stairs in a office chair firing an Uzi" -- Axitikus
FT Diomedes Gallente Ductus Exemplo	Posted - 2007.07.16 12:41:00 - [56] I am one of the people who collected hundreds of tags and unfortunately sold them all. Where did I collect them? There's this wonderful five-part Level 2 mission called Human Cattle. When the newer members of my old corp were building up standings, it seemed like one of them was always running this mission. In Part 5, there is a huge enemy fleet - lots of cruisers, frigates and around a dozen battleships. It is entirely optional to fight this fleet. In fact, you are supposed to run away from it as soon as it appears. My corp used to run that last room as a gang. It was great fun. We collected hundreds of tags, which I unfortunately sold (shared the profits among the corp). There are also some "nightmare" situations in Level 3 Portal to War where an entire enemy fleet comes through a gate if you don't blow it up fast enough. It seems to me that a gang could let the "nightmare" occur and get some good tag drops from that. Finally, there are a LOT of mission runners out there who still sell the tags because they need the money. If you put a buy order out for .01 ISK more than the NPC offer, I'm sure you'd collect a lot more tags. If I wanted to pay for tags, I'd do this in stations with a good Level 2 agent.
Masu'di Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2007.07.16 13:07:00 - [57] Originally by: CCP Greyscale The bottom line though is that the store is definitely not intended as a nerf Unintentional or not the loyalty point store has been a nerf to all the drug smugglers and drug dealers. why were narcotics removed as part of pirate implant offers? why was this not mentioned in the patch? and seeing as the LP store has a filter for contraband surely you are going to reinstate them? After spending over two years building up a successful narcotics dealing and smuggling corp, i'm a bit miffed and sad that we have had the carpet pulled from underneath us, without any due notice or warning. Es and Whizz is recruiting
Ione Hunt 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.07.16 13:24:00 - [58] It's basic market mechanics. The -3% cpu implants should sell for at least 10.5mil (base price) if you asume that people don't want ANY isk for their LP when buying in the LP store. However, people are actually selling bellow the 10.5mil atm... Why? Supply and demand. Lots of bought up pre-patch supply, loot drops, etc. If you're in it for the isk, chose something form the LP store that nets a good profit...in which case you're LP are suddenly worth something. Take invention implants and other overpriced stuff for example _______________
Myfanwi	Posted - 2007.07.16 14:17:00 - [59] The LP Store is great as far as I'm concerned - you can get what you want, when you want it. As far as the value of LPs now however they have plumeted and that is down to the enormous amounts that have been cashed in since it's introduction imo. Why has the value plummeted? It's down to who is selling. For those who don't know how the market works, and just accept any reasonable ISK offer (what they class as reasonable), from people placing buy orders. Before this, I did tend to concentrate on Lvl3s to cash in the 8k Nexus (recent sell for 145M) and 15k skill books, with LvL4s just grinding to build up LPs. I haven't been online much recently, but I could see the base items - SBs, +3s, Nexus falling as people cashed in. If there could be some sort of consensus on pricings then you wouldn't have threads like this, but as everyone is after quick bang for buck then the old cash cows are long gone. Personally, I think CCP really need to be working to faction warfare asap, and considering placing faction requirements on the use of certain items. Why should a CNR be able to be used by someone with negative Caldari standings?
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.16 14:37:00 - [60] For those interested a link to a thread with the tags you can got in missions. Tags in Missions from the post of those that have done them it seem that the level 5 missiosn drop similar quantities of tags (i.e. a max of 40-50 different tags) and little of the low leve, the most rare.

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