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Zugg	Posted - 2004.01.25 22:13:00 - [1] Due to the way the skill training is set up any newer player or anyone making an alternate on the same account is left way behind in skill points. I think this is something that keeps players from making alternates and makes newer players feel uncomfortable about joining a game so late. Especially with the next "level" of skills requiring a level 5 rank 1-3 skill. Or the fact that tech II ships are not too far away the time in training is only going to become greater and greater. I would think that during inital character creation there could be an offset in the amount of skills or skill levels that changes/increases every month. As each month of real tiem passes add another skill or even a skill level to certain main skills. I like the idea of there is no "power leveling" where other players do not catch up in a few weeks to those who been playing a long time. However exactly how much advantage do we need? I would think it would be fair enough to add to the skill package training for newer characters. Maybe it might be enough so players do not feel left behind so far. I am not asking for a full months worth of training. Maybe one weeks worth every month. That way they do not feel so left behind in skills. The starting ship and money should never change. They would still have to work for their ships and equipment or seek to join a corp that can equip them. The Dark Seraphs...like Hells Angels, but less hairy
Mau dib	Posted - 2004.01.25 22:16:00 - [2] I like the system as is. Reward the old players make the new players work for it. This is a big universe, room enough for all levels.
Zugg	Posted - 2004.01.25 23:03:00 - [3] "make the new players work for it" That is the point. There is no real work to it. It is all a matter of training time. Training time which can not be accelerated. It takes very little work to simply click train and wait for a few hours, days, weeks. So hard clicking that train button. Sure training learn skills first can accelerate training time. However doing so stunts growth. If a player is training learn skills for their first couple weeks or a month it is not going to help them get into bigger ships that much faster. Learning skills only pay off in the real long run. Another example is this. You get a friend to start playing. Your in a battleship and they are in a newbie ship. Real heartbreaking when you tell them that it will take them a month or two to use one themself, even if they bust their ass making money and can buy 10 of them. That does not even include time to be able to use large weapons. All the increased starting skills would do is cut down some of that waiting time by giving players more of the various skills or higher levels. As it stands now the oldest players have over 8 months training time. Giving newly created players a week bonus training time still hardly makes a difference. Especially considering tech II ships are on the horizon. I suppose there is always those like you who will feel intimidated by newbies with that extra training. Even with the additional training newer players will never catch up to older players in skilll points. Most other MMORPGs after time made changes to give newer players more to start with. I think Eve is overdue on that change. The Dark Seraphs...like Hells Angels, but less hairy
Mr Raine	Posted - 2004.01.26 05:01:00 - [4] Edited by: Mr Raine on 26/01/2004 05:02:59 I think you have a point. Maybe this should be discussed in more depth. People talk of having 10m skill points, and myself having less than 4, I see a big difference between me and a starter already. Figuring how many bonus skill pints would be the kicker. They could fix it easy by increasing the rate at which a skill increases when using something that requires the skill. But change the rate after the skills gets to a certain level. This way you as a new player learn faster but you have to play to see the benefit. Plus after a time you begin advancing like everyone else.
Alexis Machine	Posted - 2004.01.26 05:27:00 - [5] I'm on the fence about this one. I've been training my character since may 15th of 2003. Why should anyone else get a "special handicap" because they're new? Training the learning skills is a choice they'll have to make. As well as how to advance, be it monitary, socially, skill wise, or other methods. Us vets have busted our asses, lost many ships, mods, clones, and isks to get this far. Why should people get special attribs or skill bonuses because they can't stick it out like the rest of us? Yet at the same time, I have created alts, and quickly deleted them because of the "ahh damn that's gonna take forever" mentallity. Its a very daunting and unnerving thing to hear "oh.. I've been training these skills for almost a year now.. so.. in a year.. you'll be where I am today!" I mean.. eh.. wow.. a year eh? I can understand why you would want a system that helps them advance quicker. It would also probably keep the player base around longer. Most people I know that have quit, did so because it just takes so damn long to get anywhere. But.. I just don't know. Lemme think about it more and hopefully people'll post some ideas I can jingle in my brain.. ----------------sig---------------------------- Dtai'kai'-dte sa-de nau'gkon dtain'aun bpi-de. if you don't wake up, i'll have to stop kissing you. all that flailing has made you sleepy. you rest while i untie you. stay here until they find you. My hand made mannequin. i won't let them get you. they'll know you're mine by the fingerprints on your throat. isn't she lovely? isn't she wonderful? like the *****s that we are, swatting flies from the wounds we design.
Zugg	Posted - 2004.01.26 08:04:00 - [6] I see the difference every day. I have two accounts. One is at 8.5 months with 9 million skill points and the other is 6 months old with 5 million skill points. So I figure that is roughly 1 million skill points a month difference. Then as I stated before the second one is never going to catch up unless the first stops training. The second account has passed the first in being specialized in industrial ships. However it is about a month behind in gunnery, a couple weeks behind in socal skills, weeks behind in mining skills, and weeks behind in misc ship skills. I am not looking for a way that newer players can catch up to other players in skill points. Only something that cuts down the huge difference even just a little. Face it comparing a newer player that starts with 250k skill points is not going to compare to one with even 5 million, nevermind those who started on day 1 and their 10 million. So basically the way I see it would work is each month newer players would start out with an additional 250,000 skill points. Then if it was implemented at 250k a month, four months from now new players would start with 1 million extra, while the first players would be around 15 million skill points. A great bonus for them yet their bonus still hardly compares to long time players skill totals. Face it newer players are already screwed coming into the game being so far behind. Stuck in frigates while the majority of players are already in battleships. Then they will already be screwed out of any chance with tech II blueprints. The Dark Seraphs...like Hells Angels, but less hairy
Moonracer	Posted - 2004.01.27 04:12:00 - [7] As a new player I am against a new player "crutch". Sure it's tough being stuck with a frigate for a long time. But just like every other MMOG you have to earn the big stuff. Old players had to wait just as long as us new players. And yes there are things to do for people at every level. On the other hand, I'm quite disapointed in the alt character feature of the game. the fact that you can't train more than one character at a time makes this feature practically useless. I think changing it so alts train simultaneously would vastly increase game enjoyment. This would also technically be an increase in player training speed, while not an increase in character training speed. This would allow older players to create alts and continue to develop their main characters. This woul also allow us new players the ability to experiment and see more of the game.
Mau dib	Posted - 2004.01.27 06:04:00 - [8] Quote: Face it newer players are already screwed coming into the game being so far behind. Stuck in frigates while the majority of players are already in battleships. Then they will already be screwed out of any chance with tech II blueprints. I just started this game 2 days ago. People who have been in this game since the beginning deserve to be ahead of new players now and in the future. People who want instant catch up options are just lazy.
Raedon	Posted - 2004.01.27 06:31:00 - [9] Edited by: Raedon on 27/01/2004 06:33:21 I am also a new player and I do not have any problem with the way that the game progresses. However, as as newbie, I also want to see a bit more of the universe but that really isnt possible with an alternate character as I can't apply any skills and play around. As a newbie, or any player for that matter, it would be good to be able to have your alternate learning skills at the same time so you can explore a bit more of the game. The way I see it, the only use of your alternate player is to be able to explore different markets by logging in at different locations.
Zugg	Posted - 2004.01.27 18:03:00 - [10] " People who have been in this game since the beginning deserve to be ahead of new players now and in the future." I am ahead in skills points of anyone playing less than 6 months. Even with such a suggested improvement I would still remain ahead. "People who want instant catch up options are just lazy." Obviously you took no time to actually read anything. It is not an instant catch up and the idea was never intended to be. I am talking about them maybe starting out with 300k skill points instead of the normal 50k. It hardly compares to the millions other players have. Those skills points would be assigned by developers. It could be extra level of frigate, extra gunnery level, or even gunnery skills like rapid firing for a combat character. For a mining character it could be additional mining, drones, refining etc. If the bonus skill points were spread out correctly every month it would still be barely noticeable to both newer players and older veterans. Training alternates is another subect all together. I think that is more of a game balancing thing along with an income for extra accounts deal. The Dark Seraphs...like Hells Angels, but less hairy
RatzFatzWieDieKatz	Posted - 2004.01.28 00:16:00 - [11] Quote: I've been training my character since may 15th of 2003. Why should anyone else get a "special handicap" because they're new? In the moment newbies got the "special handicap". They don't get skillpoints-by-doing anymore and we need to learn Refining up to lv. 5 instead of Lv.4 to learn Refining effency. Why does CCP don't stick to the skillpoints-by-doing stuff. If I'm a newbie and playing all the day I want at least a litte benfit compared to a player which is in a big corp (=got money) and only goes only to start the next skill. I also heard the rumor that there was no training skill modifier in the beginning of eve, which also would be a drawback to newbies. I think the problem in eve is that you couldn't specialize enought. It was too easy to level about anything to Lv. 4 which makes it hard for people to get better in their (now) specialized skills. There are a plenty very good Figher/Miner/Industrial/Scientist (people which are good in all) in Eve. Don't get this wrong, if you playing eve it's just fair that you always been better than newbies. This is my opinion too.
Bruce Karrde	Posted - 2004.01.28 09:38:00 - [12] the new research and refining skills are a big step into specializing people ... furthermore to the newbies ingame ... there is absolutely no point in getting new people having skill bonusses or more starting skills ... You will have to learn the game the same way every1 in EvE had to from beta till now ... Also you got the advantage to get implants wich 'we' didnt have from the first day of LIVE. Train your learning skills to lvl4 or 5 so your trainingtime will be quicker ... --------------- Advanced Dwarf Mining
Falbala	Posted - 2004.01.28 12:42:00 - [13] I suppose the older players can still "solo", more or less so they don't see any problem with letting newbies "do it the hard way". With more specialization and one more year it will become a real big problem to everybody. Plans should be made ahead of time before corps realize that their scientist,refiner or agent runner is gone and they need 4 monthes of training time to replace him or her.
Kai Duracknar	Posted - 2004.01.29 00:59:00 - [14] another thing to think about is that an idiot starting eve with no real intention to 'play the game' and only realy intent on causing havok and abusing existing playser will not have the tools to do much damage.and will probably leave when he/she realises that there is not much they can really do with out effort patience and time. A true player will join, and work their way up through the skills and ships/abilites and have a sence of achievement when they first take to the black in their new Battleship or indi. No I think the balance and time taken is good and right. Eve is a game that rewards its players and if you then go side stepping the process that we used to get where we are then that de-values OUR achievements and will damage the game.
MrCjEvans	Posted - 2004.01.29 15:18:00 - [15] PLEASE DO NOT COME UP WITH NEW IDEAS WHEN WE AINT EVEN IMPLEMENTED PROMISED ONES 5 YEARS AGO. THANKS. CCP.
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2004.01.29 23:16:00 - [16] Quote: People who want instant catch up options are just lazy. u can never catch up!!!! imagine 1 year from now and a new guy joins the game, no reason for him to play is it? couse every1 would have about 40mill skillpoints while he starts with 200k... "We brake for nobody"
Zugg	Posted - 2004.02.07 19:30:00 - [17] Exactly my point Iceblock. Nobody is going to want to join a PVP game when the other guy has a years advantage of training versus standard newbie skills. I guess people have a hard time understanding that a newbie is not going to catch anyone who has played three months or longer in skill points. Those that do come close only do so because the longer player did not train learn skills right away. The Dark Seraphs...like Hells Angels, but less hairy
Kai Duracknar	Posted - 2004.02.07 22:23:00 - [18] Edited by: Kai Duracknar on 07/02/2004 22:39:34 But it isn't just a PvP game despite what people say. I've been playing for MONTHS and I have rarely, if ever, fired at another player or indeed been fired upon. save for two eirly run-ins with Moo.. there are other ways to play. you CAN keep your head down and out of trouble while gaining in experience and training skills. there is always going to be someone more experianced than you. that and skill points MUST platto off at some point. and that naturally means you can catch up but it takes time. You have to invest in EVE to be rewarded by EVE. it is totally unrealistic to step into a persistant world that has been running for a long time, and expect to quickly be able to go 'toe to toe' with the big boys. it can't be done in RL and it can't be done in EVE. The game is currently fair. It rewards time and work. you put the time in you reap the rewards. there are plenty of people out there with 6mill+ points out there but it doen't seem to be dissuading new players (seeing we have broken the online numbers two weeks in a row....) THe EVE universe is a BIG BIG place there is a place for every level of player. from time hardened,implant ridded BS captain to a newb in 1.0 space carving up his first rocks. What causes the problem is people having un ralistic expectations for EVE when joining.
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2004.02.07 22:25:00 - [19] an idea would be to make training time slower the more skillpoints u have! "We brake for nobody"
Kai Duracknar	Posted - 2004.02.07 22:47:00 - [20] if that was the case why would you ever bother training the learning skills? (just finished getting all mine to L5) either slowing the rate of point acquisition at higher point counts or having accellerated point counts for newbs it tantamount to punishing those who have done well for doing well at the game. I have been in the games industry long enough to know you reward good skill/actions and punish bad actions/choices... If you punish peeps for doing well you will drive players from the game in droves..... I've seen it work in game design many many times. the quickest way to get someone ****ed at a game it to slap them down for no fault of thier own.
Kai Duracknar	Posted - 2004.02.07 22:48:00 - [21] Edited by: Kai Duracknar on 07/02/2004 22:49:12 Double post SOZ.......
Qutsemnie	Posted - 2004.02.07 22:48:00 - [22] You dont notice the difference that much cause its like your running up a steeper hill the further you get along in skill points. The point is technically time wise people behind you are WAY behind but distance wise the difference is not so much. The difference between 1 skill point and 2 million is huge. The difference between 6 million and 8 million is definatly not that large.
Qutsemnie	Posted - 2004.02.07 22:49:00 - [23] Edited by: Qutsemnie on 07/02/2004 22:50:07
Kai Duracknar	Posted - 2004.02.07 22:56:00 - [24] so to take a RL analogy... Ok you are on a 7 year doctorate and when you are in year 5 they decide that it's not fiar for the new students starting year one to have to wait 5 years to be on a comparible level to you. So they make it easier for the freshmen to advance through the cource getting their doctorate at the same time as you, for doing a fraction of the work. Would you think that fair? or just? No you wouldn't would you?
Kai Duracknar	Posted - 2004.02.07 23:10:00 - [25] Ok so an idea. that gives a character a chance to enhance his skills but not without VAST risk could be the availibility of a 'black matket' surgical procedure for extortionate costs, to boost your skills by 'Speed learning' (something like the memory imprint machine from total recall) but this had great risk attached to it and any one runs the risk of bad brain dammage and loss of large percentage of points lost regargless of clone levels. This way the speed learn is available to all, and thus fair, but probably concidered way too risky for peeps allready skilled up to the hilt as they have too much to loose. where as if they could find the money for each skill, newbies wouldn't be risking much untill they get to a level where they feel it too risky to 'GoSpeed'. in fact the chance of frying your brain ina big way could be far grater the more points you have, but the costs of 'Speeding' would mean a newb would have to work long and hard to afford to go the Speedlearn route. just a suggestion that makes it a choice available to all with disadvantages to the skilled and the unskilled palyer ( the newb can't afford it , the skiled can't risk it..
Calmity Jayne	Posted - 2004.02.07 23:19:00 - [26] Although there can never be a point where new players catch older players in the present system, it works. New players have other advantages that anyone playing for longer than 3 months didn't have. A new player finds it a lot easier to amass isk than earlier players ever did. And let's not forget, the game is about corporations mainly. People have to learn, simple as that. Beauty IS the Beast
Herophant	Posted - 2004.02.07 23:37:00 - [27] Eve should be "job" oriented. A long term player can do most of the "jobs" A New player can only do one but a relatively new player should be able to make a differance in the game. If he coopreates with others.
Wild Rho	Posted - 2004.02.08 00:27:00 - [28] Dont forget that the elite clones have a maximum limit of Sps they can hold. I think that overall this will be a determining factors in letting newer players eventually catch up becuase eventually the old players will have skill points more than the best clone can hold. If they get pk'd then they lose points and over time this will allow newer players to catch up. I dont think its fair though to have somone who has only been going for a short time being able to catch up to a player who has been going since the start. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it...
Herophant	Posted - 2004.02.08 01:15:00 - [29] Fair or not new players should be able to do something before training for 3 months.
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2004.02.08 11:39:00 - [30] Edited by: Admiral IceBlock on 08/02/2004 11:39:46 this thread is not about getting newbs to catch up, its to get newbs to have a chance... im only saying that the newbs should get a skill training boost so they can be average, not the best... and since in eve u cant really specialise in any areas without playing for months, see what kinda skills needed to get does research skills and what skills is needed for tech2? in other words, newbs r useless except for mining... and just becouse the newbs will get a "boost" in skill training time at their first month doesnt mean they will ever ever catch up!! "We brake for nobody"

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