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Jacob Molari
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Posted - 2004.01.26 15:46:00 -
[91]
If correctly designed (from an application and an architecture perspective) a grid of small boxes can theoretically be much better than one big box.
Believe me, I'm well aware of this approach. Always the term theoretically is used.
But the theory never successfully represents the reality. A simple example can explain. All nodes on a network are connected via cat-5 at 100mbs, so the max volume is calculated based upon 100mbs, but in reality the TCP/IP stack has overhead, and as more nodes are added, you get increased collisions, dropped packets, etc, so the real transfer rate between routers and nodes might drop to under 10mbs... However the architectural model still uses the "theoretical" high-end number of 100mbs.
The solution is to use fewer nodes, fewer routers, and to increase server size, however, somebody's senior project predicted that large servers are all too monolithic and uncool (and wired magazine agrees), so they throw even more small servers at the problem only exacerbating the issues that are slowing it down. *pant pant pant*.
Yes, I am a grizzled IT veteran with more than 10 years of experience... I have seen it there, I see it here in the game.
Sometimes, size does matter 
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Eldariel
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Posted - 2004.01.26 16:21:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Eldariel on 26/01/2004 16:25:35
I agree 
That's still a design issue though - the application design should have assumed a 10 mbps LAN transfer rate, not 100 mbps . In effect the LAN has become the bottleneck ...
All architectures have their limitations and pitfalls in one way or another ... the key is balancing these to get optimal results. Optimal results in terms of performance and architecture does not necessarily equate to end user expectations though
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Dirge
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Posted - 2004.01.26 16:27:00 -
[93]
Just a note, It is completely possible with todays technology to have huge PvP battles. Any of you that have ever played Planetside know this. I've been involved in battles of 100 vs. 100 on Planetside with no lag whatsoever, and thats a real time, fast moving, FPS. Eve has a huge advantage in that everything happens so much slower, yet they STILL can't keep up with the demands of the clients? Something is very wrong here.
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T'el'Alana Luathin
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Posted - 2004.01.26 16:41:00 -
[94]
Well, I believe that it is right that you, who were in this fight complain, and should voice out what you feel.
I can estimate that it isn't fun to be a part of a disaster instead of a cool huge fleet-battle with over 100 participants.
But I would congratulate you with one thing, you were probably a part of the largest internet-game combat ever to take place..
This was the first time such a huge battle was seen, but probably not the last.
I'm more than sure that CCP knows this, and wants to do everything in its power to make sure alot larger fleet-battles happen. They've promised better code with the next patch, and as fleet battles keep on happening, and keep getting bigger and bigger, they'll have a chance to improve the code further and further.
So get their attention that the limit has been reached, so they can get to increasing the limit for us to break again.
Quitting the game won't make it better.. complaining/reporting about it, and breaking the limits will, as they will then have more and more data to find where the bottleneck is and fix it.
K. |
Mongo Peck
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Posted - 2004.01.26 16:44:00 -
[95]
Its simply not acceptable when the "current" paying players have to endore conditions like we had last night ........ 6400 users online / 100 ships active in battle = 1.5% ...
CCP need to be honest with us and look at the problem instead of this wall of silence expecially when they are trying add more people to the servers.
Mongo speaks !!
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Scarabe
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Posted - 2004.01.26 17:14:00 -
[96]
 lagged more than 2 snails going at it...
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Lord Azraiel
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Posted - 2004.01.26 18:08:00 -
[97]
They need to ATLEAST DOUBLE their processing powers. They should have so much processing power they have extra to divey out in such situations at will.
"I'm comin' for ya, and Hell's comin' with me!" |
Angel O'Death
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Posted - 2004.01.26 18:16:00 -
[98]
 Quote:
I jumped into a non guarded gate in yz...took 6 minutes to load...total bull****, fix the game or i'm cancelling my sub, not paying for 10 v 10 fights.
Beta was better.
Can i have your Stuff?
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Al Thorr
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Posted - 2004.01.26 18:38:00 -
[99]
As it goes CCP did say that they wernt gonna give us extra resources.. they knew that from the outset..
Basically they expect us to all go hurrah for their own little gimmicks n ceremonies but when a legitimate battle was to start and requests made they simply responded with a STFU ....
Nope not nice at all .
I Am in shape, ROUND is a shape |
Eneroth
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Posted - 2004.01.26 18:46:00 -
[100]
This was me:
Warping to station recive that we shall all target X.
Im looking for X and where the bleep is he looking for him for about 30sec. Ah **** cant even see him. I choose to attack a apoc in my caracel launch missiles and dont see a single one but i see his shield go down and then he is down to armor (guess that his shield booster didnt activate) 1min later i get the info that my missiles hit him. Reloading launchers wait for 3-5min untile first is reloaded and engage another apoc that was the second target (and this time i could find him). He was lagging so much that he was bouncing around everywhere according to him boom he dies.
Puff the fighting was over at the station.
This happend once at the gate too. Like 10 ppl target that ship "what ship", wow soo many missiles "what missiles" puff he is dead wtf i didnt see him, but i heard it was a raven.
One evo megathron got the same bleep but this time i could see him yeah starting to spam missiles and he dies. And the pilots didnt even see him.
edited out the n0rty stuff -Eris Discordia
-Any fool can pull a trigger.- |
Sequin
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Posted - 2004.01.26 20:17:00 -
[101]
Quote:
Quote:
I jumped into a non guarded gate in yz...took 6 minutes to load...total bull****, fix the game or i'm cancelling my sub, not paying for 10 v 10 fights.
Beta was better.
Can i have your Stuff?
Sure, you can have my vigil and the 10 units of Spirit I was saving for a special occasion.
^A Raem Civre Original
EVE-Trade, for your buying and selling needs. A Voogru original.
[i]Redon > evol and mass have a GM helping them with everything
Redon > notice how they always get ships replaced and none of us cant <--- Hurray for teamwork!
b]
We are evil exploiters! |
ProphetGuru
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Posted - 2004.01.26 20:35:00 -
[102]
Yes the lag sucked and all, but, I will say one thing. We definately pushed the servers to their breaking point, and their was I heard a gm present, so perhaps this will be a good learning -data collection- tool for the devs. If it costs us 5 ships for data that will help optimize the server in the future, I am quite happy to have done so.
It is a bummer and all, but, hey, I was part of something that had never been tried to that extent on the live servers, and heII, it's a good story to tell :):)
GG to all that were there. m0o FE FA and my comrades in Evol.
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
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Gan Howorth
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Posted - 2004.01.26 21:32:00 -
[103]
Is it possible that having to download all the skins for every ship that "some others" didn't have in cache put the hurt on the performance?
Is it possible that the coding tries to be "fair" by lowest common denominating everyones network response times/bandwidth to the muppet who turned up with a 18800 baud wet piece of frickin string in outer-who-gives-a-****?
Is it possible that eve needs a complete rewrite and put on UNIX boxes? Is it possible that CCP can at least get microsoft to do them a custom W2K datacentre solution? You got my money already chaps, please go right ahead!
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Brobro
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Posted - 2004.01.26 21:57:00 -
[104]
It seems obvious that this lag is server induced.
The answer is not bigger hardware, but loadbalancing.
As I dont like to repeat myself:
Loadbalancing
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ProphetGuru
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Posted - 2004.01.26 21:59:00 -
[105]
Quote:
Is it possible that having to download all the skins for every ship that "some others" didn't have in cache put the hurt on the performance?
Don't know about the rest of your post, but don't think this was an issue. We had every bship type represented i believe, musta all been cached I would think. Not sure bout the techie stuff tho.
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
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Riddari
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Posted - 2004.01.26 22:14:00 -
[106]
Quote:
Is it possible that having to download all the skins for every ship that "some others" didn't have in cache put the hurt on the performance?
These "skins" are in your EVE installation allready.
¼©¼
a history |
Tenacha Khan
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Posted - 2004.01.26 23:23:00 -
[107]
Quote:
Edited by: Presidio on 26/01/2004 03:36:10
Quote:
But still, we came 50 jumps up there and wasted a whole day to just not jump into YZ- because ccp said not to because ccp didn't do anything about the nodes earlier. Does that sound fair to you? 
so you suggest this? :
player> hello ccp we have a HUGE battle today, we're on our way, can you please rewrite your game code and apply the patch by the time we get there, beef up the node, we have 30 jumps left btw?
GM> sure np.
---
yeah right 
Several GMs have told us that if we let them know about a fight before downtime they can boost that node. Only problem is we need the system name and as most battles happen near midnight eve time, that is a 12hr warning we have to give which is just crap.
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Eldariel
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Posted - 2004.01.26 23:34:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Eldariel on 26/01/2004 23:37:57
Quote:
Several GMs have told us that if we let them know about a fight before downtime they can boost that node. Only problem is we need the system name and as most battles happen near midnight eve time, that is a 12hr warning we have to give which is just crap
Thats a common technical limitation on most server applications - server initialization parameters (e.g. those allocating memory etc) quite often can't be changed on the fly. Hence they need a reboot - and this, by inference, probably means a cluster reboot if there are parameter hooks
You didn't/ don't *really* expect them to bounce the entire server/ cluster on demand do you? What about the other 6300 players ... 
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Jessica Logan
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Posted - 2004.01.26 23:46:00 -
[109]
"Huge fleet battle"?
How many of these ships were camping a gate? oO
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Slithereen
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Posted - 2004.01.27 02:00:00 -
[110]
Quote:
Just a note, It is completely possible with todays technology to have huge PvP battles. Any of you that have ever played Planetside know this. I've been involved in battles of 100 vs. 100 on Planetside with no lag whatsoever, and thats a real time, fast moving, FPS. Eve has a huge advantage in that everything happens so much slower, yet they STILL can't keep up with the demands of the clients? Something is very wrong here.
Sony is rich. They can afford the mainframes. They don't seem bonded to the "I must use Wintel" approach either, considering how some Microsoft products compete with Sony.
Despite the graphical look of the game, EVE seems to me a 3D interface on top of a massive database. A game like Planetside isn't. Planetside's problems can be solved with more CPU power and main memory. But EVE---with its massive databases---is more complicated than that. This needs a lot of bandwidth, fast transactional processing and really good load balancing (which is not solved in the game software but in the operating system itself), and that means big iron. You may still be able to get away with Intel servers, but only if they are using LInux/Unix but certainly not with Windows.
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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Zenst
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Posted - 2004.01.27 02:47:00 -
[111]
After many days of bullet effects in ultra slomotion mode the mighty forces assembled all thought sod this for a game of soldiers and decided that they would all join up and go do what is the only thing left to do in fleet battles and see how many nodes they could crash by all jumping into popular 1.0 systems. After several minutes of this a reboot occured thowing the many thousand of players into the void's or RL. Upon there return they found that the great 1.0 systems had been instantly enhanced and all could jump in and out at once with glee, The fleets seeing that this was now fixed moved back to there nice out of the way sop they dont offend all the younger players kinda space and thought Hmmm. We can carry on were we left of now. Wahooooo. Alas this was not to be and the helpless fleets disbanded do the bars for drinks and chat of what could have been and the lamentasious response for those that proactivly try and prevent draining resources of CCP and GM's via petitions though there experiences of the game and abilities to know that round peg goes in round hole and yet the square peg bridage seems too win with regard to positive action in any part.
And the moral of this story is "carebears - dont leave home without one"
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Rebellion
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Posted - 2004.01.27 06:34:00 -
[112]
Well, at least this got publicized. Now everyone knows how bad the problem is.
There's nothing for us to do here, it's entirely up to CCP.
And I agree with Dirge, 100-vs-100 battles are done in other games.
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Sparta
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Posted - 2004.01.27 14:10:00 -
[113]
I have lost track of the number of posts asking CCP to adjust their node "strength" for the FA war in YZ. I believe they do not have the money to fix it
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Moph
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Posted - 2004.01.27 16:44:00 -
[114]
That happens when application/databases programmers choose to make games ;)
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