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Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
245
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Posted - 2012.01.16 22:52:00 -
[61] - Quote
Yazus Kor wrote:Only a matter of time until those who cannot back their arguments start launching Ad Hominem attacks. How predictable.
I have nothing against you personally, or anyone else in this thread. But you cannot run around and demand that because you like play Amarr or Ewoks, or chlorine-breathing slime-worms from the planet Grglsfx in a certain way, believe everyone has just to follow you, because what you think is the most important opinion.
It was also neccessary to point to the fact that a self proclaimed writer of a 'lorebook' is the one who used the ad hominem attack you accused me off, just because he did not like a different view. It certainly puts his own writing in a specific light, does it not? |
Kyoko Sakoda
Veto.
Veto Corp
55
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Posted - 2012.01.16 22:59:00 -
[62] - Quote
:popcorn: |
Yazus Kor
Kotharat Logistics
4
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Posted - 2012.01.16 23:07:00 -
[63] - Quote
Deviana Sevidon wrote:Yazus Kor wrote:Only a matter of time until those who cannot back their arguments start launching Ad Hominem attacks. How predictable. I have nothing against you personally, or anyone else in this thread. But you cannot run around and demand that because you like play Amarr or Ewoks, or chlorine-breathing slime-worms from the planet Grglsfx in a certain way, believe everyone has just to follow you, because what you think is the most important opinion. It was also neccessary to point to the fact that a self proclaimed writer of a 'lorebook' is the one who used the ad hominem attack you accused me off, just because he did not like a different view. It certainly puts his own writing in a specific light, does it not?
You're both making personal attacks, and you both look like idiots. Although to be honest, I'm more inclined to take Jowen seriously, because he actually seems to read posts in this thread other than his own. |
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
245
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Posted - 2012.01.16 23:23:00 -
[64] - Quote
Yazus Kor wrote:
You're both making personal attacks, and you both look like idiots. Although to be honest, I'm more inclined to take Jowen seriously, because he actually seems to read posts in this thread other than his own.
*Pats Yazus on the head*
It is okay, I think Jowen is quite grateful for your support. |
Silas Vitalia
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
160
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Posted - 2012.01.17 19:12:00 -
[65] - Quote
Deviana,
Maybe you can list for us why you think the book is so fantastic? Don't try to be sarcastic or witty, just explain what about the novel you feel is a good representation of the Eve IP, and how it matches the tone and flavor of many years of PF before it?
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Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
246
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Posted - 2012.01.17 20:43:00 -
[66] - Quote
Silas Vitalia wrote:Deviana,
Maybe you can list for us why you think the book is so fantastic? Don't try to be sarcastic or witty, just explain what about the novel you feel is a good representation of the Eve IP, and how it matches the tone and flavor of many years of PF before it?
For example I liked the irony, even if it was of a sublte and sometimes hard to spot type. Karin Midular is one of my favorite characters, one of the few people actually trying to hold the Republic and Minmatar together, while being sabotaged at every step by the ones supporting the Elders and the spies and traitors on the Amarrians payroll. She did what she believed in even without support and was proven right when the quest for vengeance of the Elders fleet failed horribly. There is dignity in her actions, as ineffective as they were in the end. The irony I mentioned is there when I remembered the Ushra'khan summit postings of 2006 (YC108) who called her a traitor.
I also liked that some small things were hinted only, like pieces of a puzzle that could not be assembled because the majority of pieces was still unknown. Examples are the absence of the Jovians, Jamyls other self or her telepathy. Other pieces are the Terran technology, somehow connected to the other entity inside Jamyl Sarum, the EVE-Gate and the Jovians. Enough room for some interesting speculation there.
The Brokers storyline was also entertaining, even some morals there at the end, because not even he with all his power and technology ended in a situation were the consequences of his actions were beginning to catch up with him.
About the capsuleers those were not portrayed as universaly good or evil, but as beings of immense power, with every action of them having some, often dire, consequences for the ones they happen to step on.
I could write more, I never said that the book is fantastic, or without flaws, but TonyGs work deserves more appreciation. If some people here dislike it, it is fine, but if they demand from others to fall in line with their view. just because they said so, they are definatly crossing a line here. |
Solinuas
Beyond Evil and Good
52
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Posted - 2012.01.18 13:05:00 -
[67] - Quote
I liked the books simply because they were books about eve, and basing of an enormous pool of previously read literature, TG is.... decent... i suppose |
Aynen
Federal Guard and Recon Corporation
12
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Posted - 2012.01.18 18:24:00 -
[68] - Quote
What I personally very much like about both the Empyrian Age and Templar One is that they cover a very complex social structure ranging multiple empires from many angles at once, and manages to bridge all those angles together. Many other works of fiction cover mostly 1 character, or at the most a handfull who stay in close proximity to eachother. Not that I am against that kind of narative, but Gonzales's style allows for more complexity and going into several points of view in depth, rather than just 1 or 2.
Compair this to the Burning Life, and you see mainly 2 perspectives in depth. Again, there's nothing wrong with that, it's just a different style.
How this relates to the topic? Well, Eve is extremely complex, with many angles to it. This suggests to me that a person like Gonzales would be the right type of writer to be covering it's background canon.
As to the comments I've read here about factual errors: I'd think that the more complex the canon becomes, and the more complex the addition to it you're making, the more likely it is for mistakes to be made. When comparing Gonzales's works to those of others who work on Eve's canon, keep this principle in mind. |
Nasbrit
Kagan-Kincaid Enterprises
2
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Posted - 2012.02.04 02:17:00 -
[69] - Quote
I was really disappointed when I heard that Tony was let go. Say what you will about his style or the treatment of EVE cannon, the stories he weaves are nothing less than epic. I had gotten bored of EVE back in the day but then I read Empyrian age and it rekindled my interest in the EVE universe.
Templar One kept me reading and wanting more until the very end and I'm still left wanting more. The idea that we may never write another EVE novel saddens me.
Here's hoping he's invited back into the fold to weave some more amazing EVE fiction. |
Kiroma Halandri
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2012.02.04 05:17:00 -
[70] - Quote
Yeah, bring him back. And ban all of those trolls from the forums while you are at it.
If you are being trolled, be an ass-hole to everybody. |
Seriphyn Inhonores
Eleutherian Guard
Villore Accords
63
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Posted - 2012.02.04 17:03:00 -
[71] - Quote
Tony Gonzales, as former IP manager, obviously had no reason to actually check the content of what the Storyline team writes before he decides to scribble some nonsense without taking what other CCP devs have already written...case in point...
Jamyl Sarum here is listed to be over 100 years old. This makes sense when you consider that Holders and Emperors live for hundreds of years.
How old is she in Templar One? 27. Seriously? A 27-year-old as a head-of-state for the largest empire in New Eden?
If you lot want decent EVE fiction, you can start with the Fiction Portal, and not just a pair of two books which are only one part of the wider IP. Start by reading slavery, perhaps.
Seriously, there's plenty more EVE fiction outside of what TonyG writes. |
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
276
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Posted - 2012.02.05 07:46:00 -
[72] - Quote
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:Tony Gonzales, as former IP manager, obviously had no reason to actually check the content of what the Storyline team writes before he decides to scribble some nonsense without taking what other CCP devs have already written...case in point... Jamyl Sarum here is listed to be over 100 years old. This makes sense when you consider that Holders and Emperors live for hundreds of years. How old is she in Templar One? 27. Seriously? A 27-year-old as a head-of-state for the largest empire in New Eden? If you lot want decent EVE fiction, you can start with the Fiction Portal, and not just a pair of two books which are only one part of the wider IP. Start by reading slavery, perhaps. Seriously, there's plenty more EVE fiction outside of what TonyG writes.
Remember that Jamyl is a Holder who are in all practically matters a nobility of the Amarr empire and she is also from one of the most powerful holder families. She is also the only Sarum heir for reasons explained in Templar One.
If you check earth history then you can see a lot of examples of young and very young kings or queens. In not so recent history a child was sitting on the throne of one of the largest countries on earth. |
Shirley Serious
The Khanid Sisters of Athra
6
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Posted - 2012.02.05 11:36:00 -
[73] - Quote
Well, the point is, that the things that are freely available, via the Evelopedia, and also the ingame news, say one thing, and the books, which are not freely available to all players via the Eve websites, say something that is greatly contradictory.
And unlike website material, books cannot be easily retconned, except to declare them flat out wrong. Second editions with some things changed, would be even worse, as then not only would some books contradict the website, but books owned by one player would contradict the books owned by a different player who bought a different edition.
The ingame news has presented Merimeth Sarum as Jamyl's nephew. But in the book, Jamyl does not appear to have any brothers or sisters. So how can she have a nephew ? Let alone one that is apparently nearly 60 years old.
there are some errors which are explainable as typos, such as a terran station being built "14000 years before the EVE gate closed", which contradicts everything on the website, but which would make sense as "14000 years ago, before the EVE gate closed", which is in line with everything previously written on the website, more or less.
But there are some, such as this Merimeth being/not being Jamyl's nephew, that can't be explained away this way.
It is depressing.
also, Darth Vader says to Luke, "Luke, I am your brother" in the latest collectors edition of Star Wars. (not really, but it is an example of something that would contradict everything that went before and cannot be easily reconciled) |
Aynen
Federal Guard and Recon Corporation
12
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Posted - 2012.02.07 19:53:00 -
[74] - Quote
There are some differences between ingame 'news' stories and the books that I figured where intentional to signify that the news as it is presented in the game is subject to propaganda, misinformation and a lack of information on the parts of the fictional characters reporting said news. I can't remember exactly where but I do seem to recall this also being mentioned by a CCP employee at some point. Perhaps one of you has a clearer memory of this? |
Esna Pitoojee
The Peerage
57
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Posted - 2012.02.08 02:23:00 -
[75] - Quote
Finding that quote would be a good thing, because it would represent a MAJOR change in direction for CCP's content department - as far as I've ever known, facts presented in the official news feed could be considered facts in-universe as well (the exception being obviously biased in-character sources). |
Aynen
Federal Guard and Recon Corporation
12
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Posted - 2012.02.08 10:33:00 -
[76] - Quote
Well, the way the Nix crashing into that Caldari station was reported seems a good example. The reporter didn't have all the facts, but the Empyrian Age did tell the full story of what happened there. This shows that they didn't intend the news to be a source of true information, but rather like a real life news source, incomplete and hard to trust.
Or do you take everything they say on Fox news as the truth? |
Esna Pitoojee
The Peerage
58
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Posted - 2012.02.08 18:25:00 -
[77] - Quote
Hardly. What you're talking about is the difference between in-character and out-of-character knowledge.
In-character (IC) knowledge is facts that our characters can reasonably know in-universe. This covers public information and well-known events or history.
Out-of-character (OOC) knowledge is what we know as players. It may very well often contradict in-character knowledge (indeed, one of the complaints many have with TEA/TO is that much of both books are out-of-character knowledge which our characters can't really be aware of due to it all being secret, witnesses being hunted down, etc...).
A good example is the deal with where DUST tech comes from - we know quite well that it is because of the 5th lobe Sleepers somehow managed to engineer into their brains. This is OOC knowledge. However, until the DUST tech becomes widely available, it is quite near impossible for any of our characters to know it IC, because this is a VERY tightly held secret.
The important distinction to make is that while in-characters news sources may be inaccurate due to lack of knowledge about what actually happened, it can also be assumed they will get publicly-available information - like names, ages, dates, etc. - accurate. |
Aynen
Federal Guard and Recon Corporation
12
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Posted - 2012.02.08 18:56:00 -
[78] - Quote
I wouldn't even asume that about real news. Keep in mind that it would be in Sarum's (and those who represent her) best interest to make her appear older than she was, giving strength to her claim of divinity. I really wouldn't be surprised at all if the in-character apocrypha concerning her was intentionally biassed to represent such interests. |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
299
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Posted - 2012.02.08 19:06:00 -
[79] - Quote
Sorry to spoil your fun, Aynen, but it is explicitly stated here by CCP Abraxas that the narrator in the Fiction Portal is "omnipresent". That means what is written here is nothing but the truth regardless if it is IC or OOC knowledge.
So we ask again, how old is Jamyl Sarum?
Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
Aynen
Federal Guard and Recon Corporation
12
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Posted - 2012.02.08 19:10:00 -
[80] - Quote
You mean this: "Actually a wiki should be in the style of a "Omniscient narrator"... CCP Abraxas had already said, he doesnt want a IC or RP Portal..."?
I'm noticing the use of the words 'should' and 'doesn't want'. Not the word 'is'. |
Aynen
Federal Guard and Recon Corporation
12
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Posted - 2012.02.08 19:15:00 -
[81] - Quote
It also occured to me that the age mentioned in the books might refer to her body's age? (Cloning does mess this up a bit) |
Aynen
Federal Guard and Recon Corporation
12
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Posted - 2012.02.08 19:19:00 -
[82] - Quote
The wiki article on Sleeper drones illustrates well that in practice, the wiki narrators are not omnipresent. They specify the fate of the Sleeper race as 'unknown' but they would know if they where everywhere. |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
299
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Posted - 2012.02.08 19:28:00 -
[83] - Quote
Why are you reading what JR (Publius Valerius) wrote instead of Abraxas, the man himself, in the bottom of the discussion page?
Btw. yes, cloning *might* explain it, but no official CCP lore says anything about that being a possibility (neither Tony or Abaraxas) so it will just be us making up a story.
Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
Shirley Serious
The Khanid Sisters of Athra
6
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Posted - 2012.02.08 19:36:00 -
[84] - Quote
Aynen wrote:It also occured to me that the age mentioned in the books might refer to her body's age? (Cloning does mess this up a bit)
the book, mentions that the news of Jamyl's birth was widely reported, the other Heir families even sent congratulations. It's kind of hard to announce in YC88 "rejoice at the birth of Jamyl Sarum", then in YC113 say "Empress Jamyl is 102"
there are parts of the book that take place before she was cloned. |
Aynen
Federal Guard and Recon Corporation
12
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Posted - 2012.02.08 19:37:00 -
[85] - Quote
So instead of theorising that he ment it in a way that made sense, you're theorising that he ment it in a way that didn't make sense. Both are 'made up stories' as you put it. One makes up a story without knowing for sure that he had a plan behind obvious differences of what is written where. The other makes up a story that he thumbled his writings implying incompetence without knowing for sure. |
Aynen
Federal Guard and Recon Corporation
12
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Posted - 2012.02.08 19:41:00 -
[86] - Quote
IF there is a legitimate reason for the difference, the ****** part for this discussion would be that we're probably not yet ment to be privy to the knowlage of how it is suppost to make sense in the end. But, if it was a mistake, I'd think that a CCP employee would have come out with it at this point. Right?
edit: Hmm, didn't think that word would be censored, it's not that bad a word in my book. |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
299
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 19:53:00 -
[87] - Quote
Dunno.
I the meantime we can read about how the final fate of the Takmahl, in the eyes of the omniscient narrator, remains unknown while also having the same narrator tells us what their final fate were in another article.
We can also read a bit of Templar One and wonder how exactly that Federation task force managed to put up a warp inhibitor field in low security space and why they could not just use normal warp scrambler modules like everybody else do?*
*:Not saying the book is bad in general; I find the story build up here rather good.
Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
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