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Lancashirian
Diplomatic Measures
8
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Posted - 2012.01.09 17:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
I realize that there are financial issues preventing you from keeping him in-board at this point, but with the new, re-focused direction that the company is taking, I just hope you will be able to bring him back at some point. I just finished Templar One, and it was his best work yet. I could not put the damned thing down. And as usual, he left us wanting more.
So please, for the love of God, find a way to bring this very talented and insightful writer back into the fold. |
Telegram Sam
The Drones Club
221
|
Posted - 2012.01.09 19:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
That's about the highest review you can give a book! I'll check it out. |
Alain Kinsella
90
|
Posted - 2012.01.09 20:51:00 -
[3] - Quote
What would be better for both is to allow him to continue writing for Eve, without being an employee (allowing him to explore other venues as well).
Plenty of examples here (Weiss/Hickman, Salvatore, Knaak come to mind). I may have come here from Myst Online, but that does not make me any less bloodthirsty than the average Eve player.
Just more subtle.
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Milo Caman
Anshar Incorporated
21
|
Posted - 2012.01.10 00:38:00 -
[4] - Quote
Lancashirian wrote:I realize that there are financial issues preventing you from keeping him in-board at this point, but with the new, re-focused direction that the company is taking, I just hope you will be able to bring him back at some point. I just finished Templar One, and it was his best work yet. I could not put the damned thing down. And as usual, he left us wanting more.
So please, for the love of God, find a way to bring this very talented and insightful writer back into the fold.
IGÇÖm sorry, I really cannot sit down and read this post without responding, I really canGÇÖt.
Anyone, anyone citing TonyG as a good writer has evidently mastered the art of deceiving themselves in the face of adversity.
I would rather read a Jane Austen novel than read Empyrean Age again. Sure, itGÇÖs dull, but at least the tea parties and stuffy 19th century characters have some coherence, and donGÇÖt decimate and discredit an entire library of previous material. TonyG appears to have a complete inability to write anything that doesnGÇÖt horrible deflower or discredit the PF.
Apparently no-one up top in the Amarr Empire takes religion seriously ,while the drug fuelled orgies arenGÇÖt nearly as bad as the graphic descriptions of Matari slaves licking KarsothGÇÖs flabby nipples, they still turn prominent figures in the EVE universe into a complete joke.
And letGÇÖs not forget the whole of Amarr utterly ignoring the godflesh doctrine conveniently ignoring all that stuff about cloning being unholy and simply bowing down to their new psychic overlord.
Maybe IGÇÖve been watching a C2 static for four hours, maybe I have too much to drink, or perhaps IGÇÖm just irritated because IGÇÖve had ****** combat losses in the last two days, but between the badly written sex scenes, the long, tedious macguffins, and the particularly wooden style of writing, I can quite happily say that TonyG is one of the worst writers to ever find a publisher. |
Silas Vitalia
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
154
|
Posted - 2012.01.10 02:35:00 -
[5] - Quote
Milo Caman wrote:Lancashirian wrote:I realize that there are financial issues preventing you from keeping him in-board at this point, but with the new, re-focused direction that the company is taking, I just hope you will be able to bring him back at some point. I just finished Templar One, and it was his best work yet. I could not put the damned thing down. And as usual, he left us wanting more.
So please, for the love of God, find a way to bring this very talented and insightful writer back into the fold. IGÇÖm sorry, I really cannot sit down and read this post without responding, I really canGÇÖt. Anyone, anyone citing TonyG as a good writer has evidently mastered the art of deceiving themselves in the face of adversity. I would rather read a Jane Austen novel than read Empyrean Age again. Sure, itGÇÖs dull, but at least the tea parties and stuffy 19th century characters have some coherence, and donGÇÖt decimate and discredit an entire library of previous material. TonyG appears to have a complete inability to write anything that doesnGÇÖt horrible deflower or discredit the PF. Apparently no-one up top in the Amarr Empire takes religion seriously ,while the drug fuelled orgies arenGÇÖt nearly as bad as the graphic descriptions of Matari slaves licking KarsothGÇÖs flabby nipples, they still turn prominent figures in the EVE universe into a complete joke.And letGÇÖs not forget the whole of Amarr utterly ignoring the godflesh doctrine conveniently ignoring all that stuff about cloning being unholy and simply bowing down to their new psychic overlord. Maybe IGÇÖve been watching a C2 static for four hours, maybe I have too much to drink, or perhaps IGÇÖm just irritated because IGÇÖve had ****** combat losses in the last two days, but between the badly written sex scenes, the long, tedious macguffins, and the particularly wooden style of writing, I can quite happily say that TonyG is one of the worst writers to ever find a publisher.
We should preface our criticisms by acknowledging that writing a novel is hard. Making plots and characters work is extremely difficult, or we'd all be selling novels for a living. The novel was an improvement over EA. Tony has gotten markedly better at writing combat and his 'voice' for some of the other factions seems much improved IMO. That being said:
Bad: The Jamyl scenes, and anything to do with the Amarr, just seemed absolutely ridiculous.
Apparently no one in authority can actually be religious or take the faith seriously? You don't kill and convert whole civilizations for 1,000 years and get a trillion believers without -some- people at the very top taking it very, very seriously and literally.
Sarum dying at 180 of 'old age' seems a bit odd when Khanid II is what, about 600 years old by now, and still kicking ass/taking names?
The argument that Sarum having a child would 'complicate' possible succession also doesn't hold water, as none of the other Heirs seem to have issues with their next-of-kin taking their spots after they fail the trials.
The idea of Sarum's inner circle all conveniently ignoring one of the central tenants of the faith (no cloning for Royals), also seems extremely far-fetched. What, they wouldn't notice a 180 year old man having a few clones around? You don't sweep that kind of thing under the rug in a zealot-filled religious autocracy. People find out, and the torches come out. I'm sure the elite let all sorts of moral depravities slide on occasion but clones for Royalty is a big, big no-no.
I know this sleeper/Jove thing has been building for a while, but I find it just completely unnecessary for anything in New Eden. You've got 4 main Empires, a dozen smaller factions, and a Galaxy of stories to tell, with a myriad of intricate relationships between factions an inside factions to explore. 15,000 year-old monsters from across the Galaxy just seem, I don't know, superfluous?
Mens seemed a bumbling fool rather than the chief executive of one of the largest companies in the cluster. Approaching the station early in the book in his Raven, we are treated to essentially a 'phone call argument' while he is being escorted by a good-sized Ishuukone fleet. He gets distracted and nearly collides with an escort ship? He mixes up the comm channels and talks to the fleet instead of his wife? Comic relief? I'm not saying there's no room for humor but the grand entrance of one of the central characters might not be the place to establish that kind of thing? *shrug*
I'd have to hope that any of the four Navies is smart enough not to suicide an expensive dreadnought for a teeny orbital strike.
Anyway filling up too much text for this. I think perhaps the way to go next time is a 'short story' anthology covering a wide scope instead of the 'large narrative' they've done for three books now.
In any case I wish Tony the best of luck with future writing, but EVE is maybe not the best PF for him to be tackling.
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Kyoko Sakoda
Veto. Veto Corp
53
|
Posted - 2012.01.10 05:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
Agreed with the previous two posts. I like Tony as a guy, and even think he can be a sometimes-good writer (I liked Ruthless for the most part). However, these novels are rather devastating. |
resystol
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.10 08:31:00 -
[7] - Quote
I thoug this post was for the support of Tony G , so if dont like him as a writer then dont post here , I love both novels and think they are very good, and this my opinion which is no more important than the opinion of the other 2 guys who dont like the novels , so post only if you going to support if not, then there is plenty of room in general discussion for your opinions.
I support Tony G ,he develop the IP for 8 years , i mean cmon CCP. |
Sakura Imoru
Aurea Litai Industries
29
|
Posted - 2012.01.10 10:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
Milo Caman wrote:Apparently no-one up top in the Amarr Empire takes religion seriously ,while the drug fuelled orgies arenGÇÖt nearly as bad as the graphic descriptions of Matari slaves licking KarsothGÇÖs flabby nipples, they still turn prominent figures in the EVE universe into a complete joke.
And letGÇÖs not forget the whole of Amarr utterly ignoring the godflesh doctrine conveniently ignoring all that stuff about cloning being unholy and simply bowing down to their new psychic overlord.
Honestly, did you guys ever did some research about past theocracies? Ever heard the name Borgia? I think I'll just leave this here as an example.
As you can see, Tony's descriptions of Amarrian leaders aren't that far off from reality. |
Milo Caman
Anshar Incorporated
23
|
Posted - 2012.01.10 10:58:00 -
[9] - Quote
resystol wrote:I thoug this post was for the support of Tony G , so if dont like him as a writer then dont post here , I love both novels and think they are very good, and this my opinion which is no more important than the opinion of the other 2 guys who dont like the novels , so post only if you going to support if not, then there is plenty of room in general discussion for your opinions.
I support Tony G ,he develop the IP for 8 years , i mean cmon CCP.
As you said yourself, my opinion is just as relevant as yours, so if you want to spew this kind of thing all over the forums, I have every right to do the same. This is a discussion and I am disagreeing with the main point and backing up my argument.
Bolded the important bits.
Sakura Imoru wrote:Honestly, did you guys ever did some research about past theocracies? Ever heard the name Borgia? I think I'll just leave this here as an example.
As you can see, Tony's descriptions of Amarrian leaders aren't that far off from reality.
Simply because bits of the book are grounded in very specific bits of history doesn't make it any less ridiculous.
As Silas said, I find it hard to believe that a civilization that has been enslaving and killing people in the name of their god, who now rule a huge empire across space have no people in their inner circle who take the religion seriously. |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
263
|
Posted - 2012.01.10 11:39:00 -
[10] - Quote
"True Amarr GÇô direct descendants of an ethnic group that conquered all the civilizations of its home world GÇô are proud and supercilious, with a great sense of tradition and ancestry. They are considered arrogant and tyrannical by most others. In truth the Amarr social elite is soaked through with hypocrisy and only use religion as way to control the lower classes, through giving these an illusion of higher importance while exploiting them for personal gains (much like religion works in our world). The Amarr enjoy sexual deviancies unrivaled by even the Gallente and uses any opportunity to explore new perversities."
Now that is the description CCP should put on the character creation screen so people know what kind of personality they are signing up for. I mean, nobody cares about those minor RP details, right? Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
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Seriphyn Inhonores
Eleutherian Guard
57
|
Posted - 2012.01.10 13:00:00 -
[11] - Quote
Firstly, there is a line in Templar One that says there was a Terran station somewhere in New Eden that was constructed 14000 years before the closure of the EVE gate. What? The EVE Gate closed in the 8000s. He doesn't READ the established PF. Secondly, what Jowen, Milo and Silas have already said.
Thirdly, he makes such daft PF assumptions, like saying how all the Mannar died out on Seyllin I when this isn't even remotely true, since the Mannar come from Mannar, and they're one of the oldest and most prominent members of the Federation.
Fourthly, the portrayal of women in the novels can border on disgusting, as overemotional stroppy whores that are simply Not Fit to run an empire. The ex-CEO of KK, for example, pissing herself when bound to a chair in front of Tibus Heth, in an act of defiance. Right.
Fifthly, Jamyl Sarum is TWENTY-SEVEN YEARS OLD according to the novel. The Fiction Portal written by Abraxas and co says she is 102. This makes far more sense as Emperors and Holders are destined to live for centuries, and age means a LOT in Amarr culture. What is the Amarr Empire? Some lumbering joke that puts emotionally weak, lesbian drug junkies in power? The Amarr Empire is the most powerful state in New Eden. They did not get to that position on luck alone. |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
263
|
Posted - 2012.01.10 14:37:00 -
[12] - Quote
14000 years before the closure of the EVE Gate? That means it was build around 6000 B.C. People were very advanced back then. Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
Telegram Sam
The Drones Club
223
|
Posted - 2012.01.10 14:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
Some votes for, some against, and the reasons why explained. Some pointing out of inconsistencies with the established. This is what we call intelligent discourse. Good to see it! |
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
214
|
Posted - 2012.01.10 20:12:00 -
[14] - Quote
Remember that some of the weirdest cultists in New Eden have their origins in the Amarr empire. Enemies of Mankind, Bloodraiders and without doubt a hundreds of other sects coming and going.
Imaging a lot of less then pieous activity going on seems quite likely. All of the empires pirate factions are like a reflection of each the empires darker sides. The bright side of the Gallente federation is it's liberty, the darker side is a ruthlessness when it comes to defending itself and drug abuse. Both are certainly traits of the Serpentis.
The more depraved of the Amarr are likely drawn rituals that are certainly not Theology Council approved mainstream faith. |
Alexeph Stoekai
Stoekai Corp
5
|
Posted - 2012.01.10 21:11:00 -
[15] - Quote
Tony is a somewhat decent story author, but a terrible tie-in writer. Now, for the vast majority of novelists this is not a problem, because they can make up their setting as they go along.
For Tony it's an absolute atrocity.
Not only was he IN CHARGE of keeping the integrity and consistency of the PF, but EVERY TIME he put words on paper it blatantly contradicted some preceding PF. He's the George W Bush of the EVE PF - in charge and not only unfit for the job but also too unaware of his own shortcomings to stop himself from doing anything.
I'm sure he's a lovely individual, but so are a lot of people who are terrible at their jobs. If they weren't pleasant to be around, people would catch on. |
FeralShadow
CenGen Armament
31
|
Posted - 2012.01.10 23:43:00 -
[16] - Quote
Didn't read, must run, but you're asking for examples from people near the top that take Amarrian religion seriously, what about Victor, the man who saves Falek in Empyrean Age? What about Falek Grange himself before he was almost assassinated? There were two powerful amarrians in high position who are exactly who you think they should be. Karsoth was a sort of antagonist in Empyrean Age, and his personality lent him to be so. He was a pig, and easily disliked. |
Publius Valerius
East Khanid Trading Khanid Trade Syndicate
43
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 16:06:00 -
[17] - Quote
Why people are shoked? I mean in the Empyrean Age was it the same style.... Jamyl was some weird woman.... the Minmatar had some Elders... weird .... and so on.... And most of all, he already has in first Novel the archetyp plot... form GOOD Gallente (almost like a paradise, no unemployment etc...) and the evil Amarr etc.... The first ones hasnt a story which shows all the width of EVE, and if someone likes to have more width read the Burning Life. |
My Neutral Toon
Knights Who Til Recently Said Ni
3
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 16:11:00 -
[18] - Quote
i thought this was a joke about the tight end Tony Gonzales ...Can't. Tell. If ...Troll? Or Serious.... |
Ando Ohmiras
Synthetic Horizons
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 17:09:00 -
[19] - Quote
First of all, the 14,000 number is probably an error in editing. Look at the timeline of EVE. Why? Simple; approximately 14,000-15,000 years ago in EVE time is when the EVE gate collapsed. With that being the case, it was probably meant to be something like "14,000 years ago, before the EVE gate collapsed." Yes, the number is a bit off; then again, no one in New Eden aside from maybe the Jove have that exact information. In this context, an estimated number and bad wording can easily be explained, don't you think? I also seriously doubt the editor at TOR was well versed in EVE lore, so an oversight like this (or rewording with limited information of the setting) would probably go unnoticed and unchecked.
Point being; before throwing those proverbial stones, perhaps we should give the benefit of the doubt, and look for alternative interpretations. |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
265
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 17:51:00 -
[20] - Quote
Perhaps we can pull out a whole bag of similar PF disregards if you want us to. Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
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Milo Caman
Anshar Incorporated
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 18:42:00 -
[21] - Quote
Ando Ohmiras wrote: Point being; before throwing those proverbial stones, perhaps we should give the benefit of the doubt, and look for alternative interpretations.
I'd like to point out that TonyG has been given the benefit of the doubt, and both books have dozens of inconsistencies, minor, major and stupendous. I'm sure Jowen will be more than willing to provide a list. As I recall, there's one on Backstage somewhere. |
Horatius Caul
Kitzless
40
|
Posted - 2012.01.11 21:06:00 -
[22] - Quote
Milo Caman wrote:Ando Ohmiras wrote: Point being; before throwing those proverbial stones, perhaps we should give the benefit of the doubt, and look for alternative interpretations.
I'd like to point out that TonyG has been given the benefit of the doubt, and both books have dozens of inconsistencies, minor, major and stupendous. I'm sure Jowen will be more than willing to provide a list. As I recall, there's one on Backstage somewhere. Misspellings and grammatical errors are one thing, but Tony constantly violates the PF he's employed to curate. If the EVE IP manager can't spot those errors, or can't summon an underling to spot it for him, an external editor never will.
Amarrad - Amarr language project |
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
222
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 13:10:00 -
[23] - Quote
Tony might have written the PF in a different way then some of the roleplayer perceive it, but he still made quite a good job and wrote a good story with Empyrean Age.
But I have to constantly remind myself that I am an on the internet, the place where it is cool to hate. |
Milo Caman
Anshar Incorporated
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 19:05:00 -
[24] - Quote
Deviana Sevidon wrote:Tony might have written the PF in a different way then some of the roleplayer perceive it, but he still made quite a good job and wrote a good story with Empyrean Age.
But I have to constantly remind myself that I am an on the internet, the place where it is cool to hate.
Please, substantiate your arguments. So far I've not seen a scrap of credible support or evidence from the people saying 'he's good at maintaining PF, or 'he's a good writer'.
Simply saying 'this is what I think, you are wrong' doesn't really cut it these days. |
Random Sentience
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 20:17:00 -
[25] - Quote
Milo Caman wrote:Deviana Sevidon wrote:Tony might have written the PF in a different way then some of the roleplayer perceive it, but he still made quite a good job and wrote a good story with Empyrean Age.
But I have to constantly remind myself that I am an on the internet, the place where it is cool to hate. Please, substantiate your arguments. So far I've not seen a scrap of credible support or evidence from the people saying 'he's good at maintaining PF, or 'he's a good writer'. Simply saying 'this is what I think, you are wrong' doesn't really cut it these days. There are other ways to bring up these issues, and do not hinge on whether Tony Gonzales is a good writer or not. I enjoy his writing. I have issues with some of the tropes he uses and the direction he has taken with the novels, but I enjoy them. Yes, that's right; I don't think he's perfect. NO one is. We're all human, and we are all deserving of common human courtesy.
I enjoy Tony's novels. That's why I read them. The (in my opinion) rather interesting revelations of both novels are icing on the cake. I can also forgive the very small inconsistencies, some of which are being blown far out of proportion (in my opinion).
What needs to be done here is separate the novel from his position with CCP. Being an IP Manager means more than just being a caretaker of lore. It's more than writing a novel (which I'm willing to bet was not written on company time, and if it was, I fully agree with the decision to remove him from his position). "IP Management" requires in-depth knowledge of copyright and patent law. It requires an understanding of marketing and trends within the wider games and entertainment industry. Given his dev blog, I think there is a little bit of a disconnect there, and to an extent I am glad Tony is moving on.
I think that the issue here is both preconceptions as to what exactly Tony was doing at CCP made even more apparent by the use of a title that is really hard to find an actual description of. It is very different than being a content developer I'd imagine.
So, here's what I suggest:
Collect all those inconsistencies. Write an in-depth post about those inconsistencies. Make your case as to why these inconsistencies do not fit. Just as you ask others to substantiate their arguments, you must substantiate yours. The old adage of attracting more bees with honey also holds some weight here.
This may be the internet, and you may feel that your favorite hobby just got a huge pile of waste thrown into it, but that's no excuse to treat another human being with the amount of hate that I have seen leveled at Tony Gonzales or those who are hoping to discuss their own viewpoint. I know that as a writer myself I would prefer a well written critique that rationally discusses the shortcomings of my novel to blind adulation or hate.
Thank you for your time. |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
267
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 20:58:00 -
[26] - Quote
Now that would not be fair to Tony at all. Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
Haseo Antares
Production N Destruction INC. Blue Moon Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 21:42:00 -
[27] - Quote
Here is another idea. Maybe the perceived lack of continuity is not a Tony G problem but rather a you problem. By you problem I mean us the players. I was under the impression that CCP did not want to solve the mystery of New Eden for us. But rather give us clues and possibly misinformation along the way (in the form of characters?). Maybe these inconsistencies were written on purpose. Just like in real life facts change and we do not know the whole story yet, but apparently Tony G does. I could be wrong but it wouldn't be the first time and most likely wont be the last.
Besides I think there are still things in game that players have yet to uncover. Like those hidden DED site world event agents (shakes fist @ map). Just my $.01
Edit: Although I cant wrap my head around why there is a translation of enheduanni in the book from AI Grious yet the real Grious in a chronicle said that there was no translation. |
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
223
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 22:50:00 -
[28] - Quote
Milo Caman wrote:Deviana Sevidon wrote:Tony might have written the PF in a different way then some of the roleplayer perceive it, but he still made quite a good job and wrote a good story with Empyrean Age.
But I have to constantly remind myself that I am an on the internet, the place where it is cool to hate. Please, substantiate your arguments. So far I've not seen a scrap of credible support or evidence from the people saying 'he's good at maintaining PF, or 'he's a good writer'. Simply saying 'this is what I think, you are wrong' doesn't really cut it these days.
That is the problem, you claimed that Tony did a very bad job on PF but you gave no examples why. That he did a good job is my opinion and I enjoyed the reading Empyrean Age. The EVE universe is huge and there is a place for a lot of different characters, not all of them have to fit into the cardboard boxes that some roleplayers on an external forum have laid out before them.
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Silas Vitalia
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
157
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 23:58:00 -
[29] - Quote
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
That is the problem, you claimed that Tony did a very bad job on PF but you gave no examples why. That he did a good job is my opinion and I enjoyed the reading Empyrean Age. The EVE universe is huge and there is a place for a lot of different characters, not all of them have to fit into the cardboard boxes that some roleplayers on an external forum have laid out before them.
Those who dislike his writing have given quite a few examples, please go back and read the first few comments.
And regarding cardboard boxes, we only use the ones CCP gives us. If they've been giving us gritty sci-fi boxes for the last 6 years and then suddenly give us a few that are polka-dot with 15,000 year old virtual reality monsters and lesbian space-empresses inside, we can't be blamed for being a bit dismayed.
It's their IP, they can do as they please of course, but consistency of tone and scope never hurt anyone. |
Horatius Caul
Kitzless
40
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 00:07:00 -
[30] - Quote
Deviana Sevidon wrote:Milo Caman wrote:Deviana Sevidon wrote:Tony might have written the PF in a different way then some of the roleplayer perceive it, but he still made quite a good job and wrote a good story with Empyrean Age.
But I have to constantly remind myself that I am an on the internet, the place where it is cool to hate. Please, substantiate your arguments. So far I've not seen a scrap of credible support or evidence from the people saying 'he's good at maintaining PF, or 'he's a good writer'. Simply saying 'this is what I think, you are wrong' doesn't really cut it these days. That is the problem, you claimed that Tony did a very bad job on PF but you gave no examples why. That he did a good job is my opinion and I enjoyed the reading Empyrean Age. The EVE universe is huge and there is a place for a lot of different characters, not all of them have to fit into the cardboard boxes that some roleplayers on an external forum have laid out before them. http://www.wraithwerks.net/blog/2008/07/the-empyrean-age.html Amarrad - Amarr language project |
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Eko'mo
Geminous inc
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 01:10:00 -
[31] - Quote
Personally I liked both novels for what they are. Especially the epicness of battle scenes (that unfortunately the actual game will never live up to..) it felt incredibly cinematic
I am concerned however with how the women are portrayed as quite weak willed in general. Gable, for example you will notice cant go 2 or 3 pages without someone randomly jabbing her with stimms. No joke its alarming how often this happens. A lot of repetative description, tired eyes, weary expressions etc. Loses impact after awhile.
Need to re-read all of the Jove exposition. Wish I understood it. |
Roosterton
Shattered Star Exiles SpaceMonkey's Alliance
239
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 03:16:00 -
[32] - Quote
Quote:Fourthly, the portrayal of women in the novels can border on disgusting, as overemotional stroppy whores that are simply Not Fit to run an empire. The ex-CEO of KK, for example, pissing herself when bound to a chair in front of Tibus Heth, in an act of defiance. Right.
Would people find it equally disgusting if a man was tied to a chair and pissing himself? No, in this case most would probably see it as comic relief.
I don't know about you, but I'd certainly be pissing myself if a dictator was about to probe through my mind to unearth my memories.
Just pointing this out because I've seen a lot of this "THE FEMALE CHARACTERS ARE PORTRAYED BADLY" stuff lately. There are tons of male character portrayed in a negative light, as well; why is it only "sexist" or "disgusting" when done to females?
~double standard~ |
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
223
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 08:40:00 -
[33] - Quote
Most of the things in this review can just be discarded. The author of the review uses the fact that he does not like how certain characters and events are portrayed, so he contructs a "this is abusing the PF" argument out of it.
Obviously a lot of things are unexplained in the book and I think these loose ends are there for a reason, because these gaps can be filled by other stories and events. The basic complaint in the review seems to be, that EVE is not star wars, for example we did not know how and why grand admiral Eturrer came to be a pawn to the broker and a traitor, if this would be star wars I have no doubt that he would at least have his own book trilogy by now, explaining everything in detail. |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
267
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 09:14:00 -
[34] - Quote
Nah, it is obviously because the Gallente is not more like the Bush administration. Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
Milo Caman
Anshar Incorporated
27
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 10:56:00 -
[35] - Quote
Deviana Sevidon wrote:Most of the things in this review can just be discarded.
Translation: I can't back my opinions up.
Deviana Sevidon wrote:Obviously a lot of things are unexplained in the book and I think these loose ends are there for a reason, because these gaps can be filled by other stories and events. The basic complaint in the review seems to be, that EVE is not star wars, for example we did not know how and why grand admiral Eturrer came to be a pawn to the broker and a traitor, if this would be star wars I have no doubt that he would at least have his own book trilogy by now, explaining everything in detail.
I have no issue with 'unexplained' things. It's more, like Silas said, a lack of consistency on CCP's part, going from gritty complicated sci-fi with many shades of grey to a black-and-white morality fantasy that oozes hyperbole and cliche.
In fact the number of things that did get explained in Templar One were bad. The whole 'big reveal' thing with the sleepers has practically killed the Arek'Jaalan project.
I have no issues with people who like the book either, you can enjoy bad literature, just don't go around spouting how great it is and then getting upset when people point out the inconsistencies and mistakes. |
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
226
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 11:27:00 -
[36] - Quote
Well you failed to back up your own arguments, just linking another heavily biased review does not get you points here.
I have no problems with you not liking TonyG or his writing, but I have a problem with your herd-mentality. If a small group of players hates him, you assume that everyone must hate him.
All of the points in the review stand on a weak ground for the reasons I posted earlier. |
Yazus Kor
Kotharat Logistics
2
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 12:02:00 -
[37] - Quote
Deviana Sevidon wrote:Well you failed to back up your own arguments, just linking another heavily biased review does not get you points here.
I have no problems with you not liking TonyG or his writing, but I have a problem with your herd-mentality. If a small group of players hates him, you assume that everyone must hate him.
All of the points in the review stand on a weak ground for the reasons I posted earlier.
Easiest way to win an argument: Ignore everyone else's posts, only read your own. |
Shirley Serious
The Khanid Sisters of Athra
4
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 12:04:00 -
[38] - Quote
for the point about portrayals of female characters:
In Templar One, it seems like the majority of female characters are Objectives. They are things that people are fighting over, and are unable to defend themselves. They are tools of other people. They don't seem like individuals in their own right.
Jamyl Sarum for example, is portrayed as a tool of Falek Grange/ the Other. Dr. Gable, is ofc taken prisoner and bundled about (on more than one occasion). Mens Reppola's daughter is an Objective that he is seeking to defend, and others are seeking to use against him. The assassin Thanatos, is debatable if she counts as human or not, but in any case is a tool.
Other minor characters such as the head of Federal Intelligence, she is portrayed as not being that good at her job - Roden Shipyards own agents trump the FIO. The Gallente admiral Marakova is insinuated as having slept her way to her current position. Reppola's wife, drinks because her marriage is crumbling, as a result she is killed in a spaceship incident due to not being in her chair because of being drunk, and her body is never found.
There is a waitress who is described as "A provocatively dressed waitress with long legs and a billion-credit smile appeared from out of nowhere with amber-colored spirits in two crystal glasses. Setting the bottle on the rail, she served Korvin with her lips pursed open just enough to make him sweat, and then she walked away, disappearing around the bend in the corridor." I don't see the need to describe someone in that way, when they only appear in those two sentences. The scene around those two sentences is a conversation between two of the major male characters. It is a bit of an interruption, and feels like, that were the scene a movie, the waitress was inserted to stop people going to the toilet during the scene because it was otherwise dull.
The Empyrean Age had more questionable portrayals, a lot more. I could list them, perhaps? |
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
230
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 13:12:00 -
[39] - Quote
Yazus Kor wrote:
Easiest way to win an argument: Ignore everyone else's posts, only read your own.
And you also ignored the point I raised earlier, in an universe as huge as New Eden, why do you think your point of view is the only valid one? |
Yazus Kor
Kotharat Logistics
3
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 15:06:00 -
[40] - Quote
Deviana Sevidon wrote:Yazus Kor wrote:
Easiest way to win an argument: Ignore everyone else's posts, only read your own.
And you also ignored the point I raised earlier, in an universe as huge as New Eden, why do you think your point of view is the only valid one?
In a thread as potentially huge as this, what makes you think your point of view is the only valid one? |
|
Telegram Sam
The Drones Club
225
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 17:57:00 -
[41] - Quote
Jowen Datloran wrote:Nah, it is obviously because the Gallente is too much like the Bush administration. Now I suppose mandatory that I read this book...! Though I feel a bit quesy at the thought of reliving something like the Bush admin in sci-fi format. |
Roosterton
Shattered Star Exiles SpaceMonkey's Alliance
239
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 18:29:00 -
[42] - Quote
Quote:Jamyl Sarum for example, is portrayed as a tool of Falek Grange/ the Other. Dr. Gable, is ofc taken prisoner and bundled about (on more than one occasion). Mens Reppola's daughter is an Objective that he is seeking to defend, and others are seeking to use against him. The assassin Thanatos, is debatable if she counts as human or not, but in any case is a tool.
Let's see;
Vince himself is a tool for the Amarrians and a MacGuffin for everyone else for the entirety of the book. Marcus serves no purpose other than to be told the Jove/Sleeper backstory by Grious, before being brutally killed. Foritian has a minor role, but basically only exists to tell Jacus about the immortality tech and has no ambition of his own. Miles is a babbling, romantically hopeless fool who lacks so much self-esteem with himself that he makes up stories about what he does while on shore leave to impress his crew. Mens can't seem to accomplish anything by himself and has to run over to Mila whenever he has a problem.
This phenomenon is hardly limited to female characters, and seems much more like "everyone is weak willed because New Eden is a crapsack galaxy" than "Tony Gonzales portrayes females badly."
|
Haseo Antares
Production N Destruction INC. Blue Moon Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 18:30:00 -
[43] - Quote
Telegram Sam wrote:Jowen Datloran wrote:Nah, it is obviously because the Gallente is too much like the Bush administration. Now I suppose mandatory that I read this book...! Though I feel a bit quesy at the thought of reliving something like the Bush admin in sci-fi format.
The "Bush" of Templar One was far more shrewd the the real life one...I hardly saw any similarities between the Gallente President & "the W". Unless Mr. Jowen was referring to the elder Bush...even then the Gallente federation appeared to be far more socialistic then the United States ever was. I'll try not to say to much but the book states that there is no unemployment in the Gallente Federatiion. I don't know very much about politics or politicians but that was my take on it.
Edit: Socialistic probably wasn't the best word to use...but i only know so many words and i gotta get to class lol.... |
Senn Typhos
Anshar Incorporated
5
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 22:17:00 -
[44] - Quote
Deviana Sevidon wrote:Most of the things in this review can just be discarded. The author of the review uses the fact that he does not like how certain characters and events are portrayed, so he contructs a "this is abusing the PF" argument out of it.
Obviously a lot of things are unexplained in the book and I think these loose ends are there for a reason, because these gaps can be filled by other stories and events. The basic complaint in the review seems to be, that EVE is not star wars, for example we did not know how and why grand admiral Eturrer came to be a pawn to the broker and a traitor, if this would be star wars I have no doubt that he would at least have his own book trilogy by now, explaining everything in detail.
I'll shorten the argument for you.
No one cares that we aren't handed all the answers by Tony G.
We're angry because despite demonstrating that he has no concern for maintaining the basic tenants of EVE fiction, let alone ruining any potential for meaningful, interesting developments, Tony G was allowed to write two books for our universe.
Get it? |
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
243
|
Posted - 2012.01.14 10:56:00 -
[45] - Quote
Senn Typhos wrote:Deviana Sevidon wrote:Most of the things in this review can just be discarded. The author of the review uses the fact that he does not like how certain characters and events are portrayed, so he contructs a "this is abusing the PF" argument out of it.
Obviously a lot of things are unexplained in the book and I think these loose ends are there for a reason, because these gaps can be filled by other stories and events. The basic complaint in the review seems to be, that EVE is not star wars, for example we did not know how and why grand admiral Eturrer came to be a pawn to the broker and a traitor, if this would be star wars I have no doubt that he would at least have his own book trilogy by now, explaining everything in detail. I'll shorten the argument for you. No one cares that we aren't handed all the answers by Tony G. We're angry because despite demonstrating that he has no concern for maintaining the basic tenants of EVE fiction, let alone ruining any potential for meaningful, interesting developments, Tony G was allowed to write two books for our universe. Get it?
The basic tenants, are your own opinions on how EVE fiction should be written, nothing else, at least that was clear from the review and the angry postings in this thread. |
Yazus Kor
Kotharat Logistics
3
|
Posted - 2012.01.14 11:02:00 -
[46] - Quote
Funnily enough, the basic tenants are based on what we've previously been provided with. |
Senn Typhos
Anshar Incorporated
5
|
Posted - 2012.01.14 11:31:00 -
[47] - Quote
Deviana Sevidon wrote:Senn Typhos wrote:Deviana Sevidon wrote:Most of the things in this review can just be discarded. The author of the review uses the fact that he does not like how certain characters and events are portrayed, so he contructs a "this is abusing the PF" argument out of it.
Obviously a lot of things are unexplained in the book and I think these loose ends are there for a reason, because these gaps can be filled by other stories and events. The basic complaint in the review seems to be, that EVE is not star wars, for example we did not know how and why grand admiral Eturrer came to be a pawn to the broker and a traitor, if this would be star wars I have no doubt that he would at least have his own book trilogy by now, explaining everything in detail. I'll shorten the argument for you. No one cares that we aren't handed all the answers by Tony G. We're angry because despite demonstrating that he has no concern for maintaining the basic tenants of EVE fiction, let alone ruining any potential for meaningful, interesting developments, Tony G was allowed to write two books for our universe. Get it? The basic tenants, are your own opinions on how EVE fiction should be written, nothing else, at least that was clear from the review and the angry postings in this thread.
Woman, are you kidding me?
He didn't get the timeline right, and that's on the evelopedia site.
That's not "my opinion," that's a basic fact about the fictional universe Tony G is supposed to be writing for. If he can't follow such a simple facet of canon - hell, it's a NUMBER and he got it wrong - do you really think anyone will respect his "brilliant" expositions on complex matters of political and social interaction?
Do you even read these replies or do you just let words fall out of your head? Just say "apple" if you even reach the end of this post. |
Shirley Serious
The Khanid Sisters of Athra
5
|
Posted - 2012.01.14 12:36:00 -
[48] - Quote
Roosterton wrote:This phenomenon is hardly limited to female characters, and seems much more like "everyone is weak willed because New Eden is a crapsack galaxy" than "Tony Gonzales portrayes females badly."
There are several male characters who are easily manipulated, yes. However there are several more male characters who have a grip on things.
The characters I referred to in my previous post, were the main female characters. All of them are objectives to be defended and/or easily manipulated tools.
Referring back to the Empyrean age, there is more of this, such as:
Grand Admiral Kasora Neko (Minmatar Fleet) who is portrayed as ineffectual, unable to maintain any form of command over the fleet. Karin Midular (Republic Prime minister) who is portrayed as whining, ineffectual, a moody girl that throws tantrums, is beaten and raped, then "learns her place" and is submissive thereafter. Ariel Orviegnoure (Federation Intelligence senior officer) who is repeatedly interrupted, ineffective. Yana Marakova (Federation Navy) who is a capsuleer, is initially rather condescending towards Korvin the male Fed Navy pilot, she is podded, loses SP and is unable to fly, is submissive afterwards. Camoul Hinda (court chamberlain advisor) who tells Karsoth he's screwing it all up, ends up beaten and turned into a drugged sex slave. unnamed Gallentean women on Caldari Prime, mentioned as being out shopping for exotic underwear, hundreds/thousands of them are killed in the Caldari invasion.
Now then, in what kind of world do such ineffective individuals become head of such organisations ?
How does someone become Grand Admiral of the Fleet without having any more ability to command than an officer cadet ? How does someone become Prime Minister when being a tantrum throwing whining little girl ? Why would you summon the chief intelligence officer, and then never let them say anything ? How did they become the chief anyway when they are that ineffective ?
Why is it necessary to write that various women are beaten then are submissive afterwards ? Why specifically mention that many of the casualties of the invasion of Caldari prime were women shopping for underwear ?
It just looks as if the books were written to appeal to that particular brand of internet "humour", such as the "what do you say to a woman with two black eyes? Nothing you already told her twice." sort of jokes. |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
267
|
Posted - 2012.01.14 12:44:00 -
[49] - Quote
Tony G writes a Star Wars book: "In a galaxy not far away..." Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
Horatius Caul
Kitzless
40
|
Posted - 2012.01.14 13:40:00 -
[50] - Quote
Jowen Datloran wrote:Tony G writes a Star Wars book: "In a galaxy not far away..." "In the near future..." Amarrad - Amarr language project |
|
Kyoko Sakoda
Veto. Veto Corp
55
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 01:14:00 -
[51] - Quote
Shirley Serious wrote:Words.
From a meta-ideology POV this was a pretty darn good post and says a lot about dominant modes of modern-day ideology seeping into EVE novels. |
Myyona
Ataraxia Pharmacies
12
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 08:04:00 -
[52] - Quote
Shirley Serious wrote:Spot on /semi RP-mode on I run a humanitarian orientated corporation.
If I ever encounter the Minmatar Elders I am going to choke them to death with my bare hands for what they did to Midular. /semi RP-mode off
Tony G never managed to portrait any of the strong women of EVE fiction as actual strong. Instead they end up in some subdued position often involving sex.
Jamyl Sarum could have been cool as Darth Vader. Except Vader did not do drugs or flaunted off sexual deviancies. CEO - Ataraxia Pharmacies Biography |
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
245
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 12:00:00 -
[53] - Quote
Senn Typhos wrote:Deviana Sevidon wrote:Senn Typhos wrote:Deviana Sevidon wrote:Most of the things in this review can just be discarded. The author of the review uses the fact that he does not like how certain characters and events are portrayed, so he contructs a "this is abusing the PF" argument out of it.
Obviously a lot of things are unexplained in the book and I think these loose ends are there for a reason, because these gaps can be filled by other stories and events. The basic complaint in the review seems to be, that EVE is not star wars, for example we did not know how and why grand admiral Eturrer came to be a pawn to the broker and a traitor, if this would be star wars I have no doubt that he would at least have his own book trilogy by now, explaining everything in detail. I'll shorten the argument for you. No one cares that we aren't handed all the answers by Tony G. We're angry because despite demonstrating that he has no concern for maintaining the basic tenants of EVE fiction, let alone ruining any potential for meaningful, interesting developments, Tony G was allowed to write two books for our universe. Get it? The basic tenants, are your own opinions on how EVE fiction should be written, nothing else, at least that was clear from the review and the angry postings in this thread. Woman, are you kidding me? He didn't get the timeline right, and that's on the evelopedia site. That's not "my opinion," that's a basic fact about the fictional universe Tony G is supposed to be writing for. If he can't follow such a simple facet of canon - hell, it's a NUMBER and he got it wrong - do you really think anyone will respect his "brilliant" expositions on complex matters of political and social interaction? Do you even read these replies or do you just let words fall out of your head? Just say "apple" if you even reach the end of this post.
The timeline was really messed up at the time of TonyGs writing and in desperate need of rework. For example the timeline for the khanid did not match the information about the Amarr and the Sansha timeline was completely disjointed from what was happening in other parts of New Eden.
I am not saying that the timeline should be completely ignored but I can ignore smaller continuity errors, especially because I know how flawed the first timeline was. Empyrean Age is no masterpiece like the Hyperion-Cantos, but it was certainly a good read and it fit the EVE universe better then the Burning Life.
That being said it EA was not without flaws, yes some continuity errors, some deus ex machine events and lots of things that were unresolved, but I think a lot people would be more forgiving to the book, if RP news, articles etc following the release of the book had helped to resolve the unexplained events, instead they raised only more questions by tieing the terran superweapon to the event of wormhole openings. |
Senn Typhos
Anshar Incorporated
6
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 18:24:00 -
[54] - Quote
Deviana Sevidon wrote:Senn Typhos wrote:
Do you even read these replies or do you just let words fall out of your head? Just say "apple" if you even reach the end of this post.
The timeline was really messed up at the time of TonyGs writing and in desperate need of rework. For example the timeline for the khanid did not match the information about the Amarr and the Sansha timeline was completely disjointed from what was happening in other parts of New Eden. I am not saying that the timeline should be completely ignored but I can ignore smaller continuity errors, especially because I know how flawed the first timeline was. Empyrean Age is no masterpiece like the Hyperion-Cantos, but it was certainly a good read and it fit the EVE universe better then the Burning Life. That being said it EA was not without flaws, yes some continuity errors, some deus ex machine events and lots of things that were unresolved, but I think a lot people would be more forgiving to the book, if RP news, articles etc following the release of the book had helped to resolve the unexplained events, instead they raised only more questions by tieing the terran superweapon to the event of wormhole openings.
Busted. |
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
245
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 18:45:00 -
[55] - Quote
Senn Typhos wrote:Deviana Sevidon wrote:Senn Typhos wrote:
Do you even read these replies or do you just let words fall out of your head? Just say "apple" if you even reach the end of this post.
The timeline was really messed up at the time of TonyGs writing and in desperate need of rework. For example the timeline for the khanid did not match the information about the Amarr and the Sansha timeline was completely disjointed from what was happening in other parts of New Eden. I am not saying that the timeline should be completely ignored but I can ignore smaller continuity errors, especially because I know how flawed the first timeline was. Empyrean Age is no masterpiece like the Hyperion-Cantos, but it was certainly a good read and it fit the EVE universe better then the Burning Life. That being said it EA was not without flaws, yes some continuity errors, some deus ex machine events and lots of things that were unresolved, but I think a lot people would be more forgiving to the book, if RP news, articles etc following the release of the book had helped to resolve the unexplained events, instead they raised only more questions by tieing the terran superweapon to the event of wormhole openings. Busted.
Nope, he did a good job, but I have a different opinion on what qualifies as a good job. |
Milo Caman
Anshar Incorporated
30
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 20:10:00 -
[56] - Quote
Senn Typhos wrote: Do you even read these replies or do you just let words fall out of your head? Just say "apple" if you even reach the end of this post.
Senn Typhos wrote:Deviana Sevidon wrote:Post Busted
This thread delivers. |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
271
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 20:34:00 -
[57] - Quote
It certainly does.
Apparently there is a good reason why Miss. Sevidon's posting is on my "ignore" list. I had just forgotten why. Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
Silas Vitalia
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
159
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 21:46:00 -
[58] - Quote
This brings something else to mind,
A fast and easy way to "fact-check" with existing PF for these novels and prevent some inconsistancy issues would be to release tiny snippets to us, the PF forum nerds. Crowdsource your fact-checking in other words.
IE if a paragraph is talking about dates, names, and places, shoot it out of context to the forums, and I do believe it would quickly be validated or not.
Obviously opinions on -content- will vary and can be ignored, but names, dates, concepts, etc could be corrected well in advance.
|
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
245
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 22:14:00 -
[59] - Quote
Jowen Datloran wrote:It certainly does.
Apparently there is a good reason why Miss. Sevidon's posting is on my "ignore" list. I had just forgotten why.
If you can't accept other opinions, then feel free to put me on your ignore list. As a matter of fact it speaks volumes about your character, or in this particular example for the 'quality' of your so called lorebook. |
Yazus Kor
Kotharat Logistics
4
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 22:36:00 -
[60] - Quote
Only a matter of time until those who cannot back their arguments start launching Ad Hominem attacks against everyone else, how predictable. |
|
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
245
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 22:52:00 -
[61] - Quote
Yazus Kor wrote:Only a matter of time until those who cannot back their arguments start launching Ad Hominem attacks. How predictable.
I have nothing against you personally, or anyone else in this thread. But you cannot run around and demand that because you like play Amarr or Ewoks, or chlorine-breathing slime-worms from the planet Grglsfx in a certain way, believe everyone has just to follow you, because what you think is the most important opinion.
It was also neccessary to point to the fact that a self proclaimed writer of a 'lorebook' is the one who used the ad hominem attack you accused me off, just because he did not like a different view. It certainly puts his own writing in a specific light, does it not? |
Kyoko Sakoda
Veto. Veto Corp
55
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 22:59:00 -
[62] - Quote
:popcorn: |
Yazus Kor
Kotharat Logistics
4
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 23:07:00 -
[63] - Quote
Deviana Sevidon wrote:Yazus Kor wrote:Only a matter of time until those who cannot back their arguments start launching Ad Hominem attacks. How predictable. I have nothing against you personally, or anyone else in this thread. But you cannot run around and demand that because you like play Amarr or Ewoks, or chlorine-breathing slime-worms from the planet Grglsfx in a certain way, believe everyone has just to follow you, because what you think is the most important opinion. It was also neccessary to point to the fact that a self proclaimed writer of a 'lorebook' is the one who used the ad hominem attack you accused me off, just because he did not like a different view. It certainly puts his own writing in a specific light, does it not?
You're both making personal attacks, and you both look like idiots. Although to be honest, I'm more inclined to take Jowen seriously, because he actually seems to read posts in this thread other than his own. |
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
245
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 23:23:00 -
[64] - Quote
Yazus Kor wrote:
You're both making personal attacks, and you both look like idiots. Although to be honest, I'm more inclined to take Jowen seriously, because he actually seems to read posts in this thread other than his own.
*Pats Yazus on the head*
It is okay, I think Jowen is quite grateful for your support. |
Silas Vitalia
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
160
|
Posted - 2012.01.17 19:12:00 -
[65] - Quote
Deviana,
Maybe you can list for us why you think the book is so fantastic? Don't try to be sarcastic or witty, just explain what about the novel you feel is a good representation of the Eve IP, and how it matches the tone and flavor of many years of PF before it?
|
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
246
|
Posted - 2012.01.17 20:43:00 -
[66] - Quote
Silas Vitalia wrote:Deviana,
Maybe you can list for us why you think the book is so fantastic? Don't try to be sarcastic or witty, just explain what about the novel you feel is a good representation of the Eve IP, and how it matches the tone and flavor of many years of PF before it?
For example I liked the irony, even if it was of a sublte and sometimes hard to spot type. Karin Midular is one of my favorite characters, one of the few people actually trying to hold the Republic and Minmatar together, while being sabotaged at every step by the ones supporting the Elders and the spies and traitors on the Amarrians payroll. She did what she believed in even without support and was proven right when the quest for vengeance of the Elders fleet failed horribly. There is dignity in her actions, as ineffective as they were in the end. The irony I mentioned is there when I remembered the Ushra'khan summit postings of 2006 (YC108) who called her a traitor.
I also liked that some small things were hinted only, like pieces of a puzzle that could not be assembled because the majority of pieces was still unknown. Examples are the absence of the Jovians, Jamyls other self or her telepathy. Other pieces are the Terran technology, somehow connected to the other entity inside Jamyl Sarum, the EVE-Gate and the Jovians. Enough room for some interesting speculation there.
The Brokers storyline was also entertaining, even some morals there at the end, because not even he with all his power and technology ended in a situation were the consequences of his actions were beginning to catch up with him.
About the capsuleers those were not portrayed as universaly good or evil, but as beings of immense power, with every action of them having some, often dire, consequences for the ones they happen to step on.
I could write more, I never said that the book is fantastic, or without flaws, but TonyGs work deserves more appreciation. If some people here dislike it, it is fine, but if they demand from others to fall in line with their view. just because they said so, they are definatly crossing a line here. |
Solinuas
Beyond Evil and Good
52
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 13:05:00 -
[67] - Quote
I liked the books simply because they were books about eve, and basing of an enormous pool of previously read literature, TG is.... decent... i suppose |
Aynen
Federal Guard and Recon Corporation
12
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 18:24:00 -
[68] - Quote
What I personally very much like about both the Empyrian Age and Templar One is that they cover a very complex social structure ranging multiple empires from many angles at once, and manages to bridge all those angles together. Many other works of fiction cover mostly 1 character, or at the most a handfull who stay in close proximity to eachother. Not that I am against that kind of narative, but Gonzales's style allows for more complexity and going into several points of view in depth, rather than just 1 or 2. Compair this to the Burning Life, and you see mainly 2 perspectives in depth. Again, there's nothing wrong with that, it's just a different style. How this relates to the topic? Well, Eve is extremely complex, with many angles to it. This suggests to me that a person like Gonzales would be the right type of writer to be covering it's background canon.
As to the comments I've read here about factual errors: I'd think that the more complex the canon becomes, and the more complex the addition to it you're making, the more likely it is for mistakes to be made. When comparing Gonzales's works to those of others who work on Eve's canon, keep this principle in mind. |
Nasbrit
Kagan-Kincaid Enterprises
2
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 02:17:00 -
[69] - Quote
I was really disappointed when I heard that Tony was let go. Say what you will about his style or the treatment of EVE cannon, the stories he weaves are nothing less than epic. I had gotten bored of EVE back in the day but then I read Empyrian age and it rekindled my interest in the EVE universe.
Templar One kept me reading and wanting more until the very end and I'm still left wanting more. The idea that we may never write another EVE novel saddens me.
Here's hoping he's invited back into the fold to weave some more amazing EVE fiction. |
Kiroma Halandri
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 05:17:00 -
[70] - Quote
Yeah, bring him back. And ban all of those trolls from the forums while you are at it. If you are being trolled, be an ass-hole to everybody. |
|
Seriphyn Inhonores
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
63
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 17:03:00 -
[71] - Quote
Tony Gonzales, as former IP manager, obviously had no reason to actually check the content of what the Storyline team writes before he decides to scribble some nonsense without taking what other CCP devs have already written...case in point...
Jamyl Sarum here is listed to be over 100 years old. This makes sense when you consider that Holders and Emperors live for hundreds of years.
How old is she in Templar One? 27. Seriously? A 27-year-old as a head-of-state for the largest empire in New Eden?
If you lot want decent EVE fiction, you can start with the Fiction Portal, and not just a pair of two books which are only one part of the wider IP. Start by reading slavery, perhaps.
Seriously, there's plenty more EVE fiction outside of what TonyG writes. |
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
276
|
Posted - 2012.02.05 07:46:00 -
[72] - Quote
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:Tony Gonzales, as former IP manager, obviously had no reason to actually check the content of what the Storyline team writes before he decides to scribble some nonsense without taking what other CCP devs have already written...case in point... Jamyl Sarum here is listed to be over 100 years old. This makes sense when you consider that Holders and Emperors live for hundreds of years. How old is she in Templar One? 27. Seriously? A 27-year-old as a head-of-state for the largest empire in New Eden? If you lot want decent EVE fiction, you can start with the Fiction Portal, and not just a pair of two books which are only one part of the wider IP. Start by reading slavery, perhaps. Seriously, there's plenty more EVE fiction outside of what TonyG writes.
Remember that Jamyl is a Holder who are in all practically matters a nobility of the Amarr empire and she is also from one of the most powerful holder families. She is also the only Sarum heir for reasons explained in Templar One.
If you check earth history then you can see a lot of examples of young and very young kings or queens. In not so recent history a child was sitting on the throne of one of the largest countries on earth. |
Shirley Serious
The Khanid Sisters of Athra
6
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Posted - 2012.02.05 11:36:00 -
[73] - Quote
Well, the point is, that the things that are freely available, via the Evelopedia, and also the ingame news, say one thing, and the books, which are not freely available to all players via the Eve websites, say something that is greatly contradictory.
And unlike website material, books cannot be easily retconned, except to declare them flat out wrong. Second editions with some things changed, would be even worse, as then not only would some books contradict the website, but books owned by one player would contradict the books owned by a different player who bought a different edition.
The ingame news has presented Merimeth Sarum as Jamyl's nephew. But in the book, Jamyl does not appear to have any brothers or sisters. So how can she have a nephew ? Let alone one that is apparently nearly 60 years old.
there are some errors which are explainable as typos, such as a terran station being built "14000 years before the EVE gate closed", which contradicts everything on the website, but which would make sense as "14000 years ago, before the EVE gate closed", which is in line with everything previously written on the website, more or less.
But there are some, such as this Merimeth being/not being Jamyl's nephew, that can't be explained away this way.
It is depressing.
also, Darth Vader says to Luke, "Luke, I am your brother" in the latest collectors edition of Star Wars. (not really, but it is an example of something that would contradict everything that went before and cannot be easily reconciled) |
Aynen
Federal Guard and Recon Corporation
12
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Posted - 2012.02.07 19:53:00 -
[74] - Quote
There are some differences between ingame 'news' stories and the books that I figured where intentional to signify that the news as it is presented in the game is subject to propaganda, misinformation and a lack of information on the parts of the fictional characters reporting said news. I can't remember exactly where but I do seem to recall this also being mentioned by a CCP employee at some point. Perhaps one of you has a clearer memory of this? |
Esna Pitoojee
The Peerage
57
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Posted - 2012.02.08 02:23:00 -
[75] - Quote
Finding that quote would be a good thing, because it would represent a MAJOR change in direction for CCP's content department - as far as I've ever known, facts presented in the official news feed could be considered facts in-universe as well (the exception being obviously biased in-character sources). |
Aynen
Federal Guard and Recon Corporation
12
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Posted - 2012.02.08 10:33:00 -
[76] - Quote
Well, the way the Nix crashing into that Caldari station was reported seems a good example. The reporter didn't have all the facts, but the Empyrian Age did tell the full story of what happened there. This shows that they didn't intend the news to be a source of true information, but rather like a real life news source, incomplete and hard to trust.
Or do you take everything they say on Fox news as the truth? |
Esna Pitoojee
The Peerage
58
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Posted - 2012.02.08 18:25:00 -
[77] - Quote
Hardly. What you're talking about is the difference between in-character and out-of-character knowledge.
In-character (IC) knowledge is facts that our characters can reasonably know in-universe. This covers public information and well-known events or history.
Out-of-character (OOC) knowledge is what we know as players. It may very well often contradict in-character knowledge (indeed, one of the complaints many have with TEA/TO is that much of both books are out-of-character knowledge which our characters can't really be aware of due to it all being secret, witnesses being hunted down, etc...).
A good example is the deal with where DUST tech comes from - we know quite well that it is because of the 5th lobe Sleepers somehow managed to engineer into their brains. This is OOC knowledge. However, until the DUST tech becomes widely available, it is quite near impossible for any of our characters to know it IC, because this is a VERY tightly held secret.
The important distinction to make is that while in-characters news sources may be inaccurate due to lack of knowledge about what actually happened, it can also be assumed they will get publicly-available information - like names, ages, dates, etc. - accurate. |
Aynen
Federal Guard and Recon Corporation
12
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 18:56:00 -
[78] - Quote
I wouldn't even asume that about real news. Keep in mind that it would be in Sarum's (and those who represent her) best interest to make her appear older than she was, giving strength to her claim of divinity. I really wouldn't be surprised at all if the in-character apocrypha concerning her was intentionally biassed to represent such interests. |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
299
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 19:06:00 -
[79] - Quote
Sorry to spoil your fun, Aynen, but it is explicitly stated here by CCP Abraxas that the narrator in the Fiction Portal is "omnipresent". That means what is written here is nothing but the truth regardless if it is IC or OOC knowledge.
So we ask again, how old is Jamyl Sarum? Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
Aynen
Federal Guard and Recon Corporation
12
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 19:10:00 -
[80] - Quote
You mean this: "Actually a wiki should be in the style of a "Omniscient narrator"... CCP Abraxas had already said, he doesnt want a IC or RP Portal..."?
I'm noticing the use of the words 'should' and 'doesn't want'. Not the word 'is'. |
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Aynen
Federal Guard and Recon Corporation
12
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Posted - 2012.02.08 19:15:00 -
[81] - Quote
It also occured to me that the age mentioned in the books might refer to her body's age? (Cloning does mess this up a bit) |
Aynen
Federal Guard and Recon Corporation
12
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 19:19:00 -
[82] - Quote
The wiki article on Sleeper drones illustrates well that in practice, the wiki narrators are not omnipresent. They specify the fate of the Sleeper race as 'unknown' but they would know if they where everywhere. |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
299
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 19:28:00 -
[83] - Quote
Why are you reading what JR (Publius Valerius) wrote instead of Abraxas, the man himself, in the bottom of the discussion page?
Btw. yes, cloning *might* explain it, but no official CCP lore says anything about that being a possibility (neither Tony or Abaraxas) so it will just be us making up a story. Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
Shirley Serious
The Khanid Sisters of Athra
6
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 19:36:00 -
[84] - Quote
Aynen wrote:It also occured to me that the age mentioned in the books might refer to her body's age? (Cloning does mess this up a bit)
the book, mentions that the news of Jamyl's birth was widely reported, the other Heir families even sent congratulations. It's kind of hard to announce in YC88 "rejoice at the birth of Jamyl Sarum", then in YC113 say "Empress Jamyl is 102"
there are parts of the book that take place before she was cloned. |
Aynen
Federal Guard and Recon Corporation
12
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 19:37:00 -
[85] - Quote
So instead of theorising that he ment it in a way that made sense, you're theorising that he ment it in a way that didn't make sense. Both are 'made up stories' as you put it. One makes up a story without knowing for sure that he had a plan behind obvious differences of what is written where. The other makes up a story that he thumbled his writings implying incompetence without knowing for sure. |
Aynen
Federal Guard and Recon Corporation
12
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 19:41:00 -
[86] - Quote
IF there is a legitimate reason for the difference, the ****** part for this discussion would be that we're probably not yet ment to be privy to the knowlage of how it is suppost to make sense in the end. But, if it was a mistake, I'd think that a CCP employee would have come out with it at this point. Right?
edit: Hmm, didn't think that word would be censored, it's not that bad a word in my book. |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
299
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 19:53:00 -
[87] - Quote
Dunno.
I the meantime we can read about how the final fate of the Takmahl, in the eyes of the omniscient narrator, remains unknown while also having the same narrator tells us what their final fate were in another article.
We can also read a bit of Templar One and wonder how exactly that Federation task force managed to put up a warp inhibitor field in low security space and why they could not just use normal warp scrambler modules like everybody else do?*
*:Not saying the book is bad in general; I find the story build up here rather good. Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
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