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Xiaodown Lyran Procurement	Posted - 2007.07.17 21:03:00 - [31] Originally by: Masheine I think you're trying to say that local has evolved into an intelligence, and that you're fine with that. Which is great. But if you're fine with the evolution of unintended tactics that work for you, you should also consider the validity of unintended tactics that work against you. See, and my point is that using a pilgrim or what-have-you to sneak up on people and wtfpwn them is a valid tactic BUT being afk having hot secks with my mom WHILE your pilgrim is afk & cloaked is NOT AT TACTIC at all. You should have to be at the keyboard to play the game. But, you and I might be on the same side of this argument - You say "remove local and problem solved". I say "as long as local is there, afk cloakers are a problem - if you're not going to remove local, do something about the cloakers". One bridge at a time. ~X -- Lyran procurement is offering tritanium compression services for 0.0 alliances. Low prices, 25:1 compression. Click for Details...
Illyria Ambri RennTech	Posted - 2007.07.17 22:13:00 - [32] Removing the auotmatic updating of local will remove the fear of the AFK cloaker. Out of sight.. out of mind. The only reason ppl are complaining about cloakers is cause they can see them in local. If local didn't autoupdate this wouldn't be an issue. Remove the autoupdate and make it more like alliance chat where you don't show up unless you say something. This allows those that want to use local as a chat tool the ability to continue doing so. It stops the forum whines about afk cloakers since they wont know how long they are there. It allows covops and recons to perform their CCP designed job of sneaking behind enemy lines and collecting intel. Its such a simple fix to change the chat settings to not auotupdate... But I guess changing a bit from 1 to 0 is too much for the Dev's to handle. ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek Here come the Drums!! - The Master
Ryum852	Posted - 2007.07.17 22:43:00 - [33] I am new to this issue so I will ask a simple question Maybe someone has a dev response Was local chat even intended to be used as an intel tool? or just a means to chat with people? Depending on what the dev's say bout that is what I will go with. Either way is cool with me.
Illyria Ambri RennTech	Posted - 2007.07.17 22:51:00 - [34] Originally by: Ryum852 I am new to this issue so I will ask a simple question Maybe someone has a dev response Was local chat even intended to be used as an intel tool? or just a means to chat with people? Depending on what the dev's say bout that is what I will go with. Either way is cool with me. No it was never intended as an intel tool and has been stated as much by the Dev's ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek Here come the Drums!! - The Master
SiJira	Posted - 2007.07.17 23:01:00 - [35] still beating a dead horse kids? ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Vyyrus Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.17 23:08:00 - [36] Originally by: SiJira still beating a dead horse kids? Do you need that much attention u need to link ur post in every other post?
Jayad HIVE O X I D E	Posted - 2007.07.17 23:12:00 - [37] I think this is an acceptable solution, as long as it doesnt harm covert ops.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.07.17 23:13:00 - [38] Edited by: SiJira on 17/07/2007 23:12:41 Originally by: Vyyrus Originally by: SiJira still beating a dead horse kids? Do you need that much attention u need to link ur post in every other post? if people did not post their half baked and ignorant ideas and simply read the thread that has it all including links to dev posts i might not have to ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Allan Robertson Gallente Azure Horizon Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.07.17 23:35:00 - [39] Edited by: Allan Robertson on 17/07/2007 23:41:05 Your idea is a solution looking for a problem, and is a cover for your blatant laziness to hunt those who, by in the process of using cloaks must only be using a CovOps ship with a CovOps cloak, a ship that is by all definition is 'defenceless' only an idiot would fly a cheap cloak on a battleship. A CopOps ship cannot 'terrorize' a system, it's the same as complaining about guns, guns shoot things and blow them up and I don't like that and can't be bothered to think and protect myself so I demand that CCP nerf guns. I would like for 0.0 only to have local removed it's not an intel tool and pointless for use in 0.0 but locals removal should only apply to 0.0 and not the whole of EVE, it's a solution that is simple, would address the problem, no need for complex new equipment and or skills or a change that would penalize all CovOps players, think simple people for gods sake. --- Say YES! to Mining Cargo Holds on barges!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.17 23:42:00 - [40] Originally by: Illyria Ambri If local didn't autoupdate this wouldn't be an issue. Remove the autoupdate and make it more like alliance chat where you don't show up unless you say something. This - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.17 23:44:00 - [41] a fresh look at STFU Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink. Nerfageddon
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.07.17 23:47:00 - [42] Originally by: Xiaodown People that want to leave cloaks as-is are starting to sound like the pro-nano-ships folks before injection vents got nerfed. It's a problem, it needs to be addressed - yet in such a way that it doesn't make the cloak useless; just balanced. If cloaks remained active when logging off and back on there'd be less of a reason to afk cloak. If a single afk cloaker is causing you significant problems, you need to go back to empire. Single cloaked ships are ridiculously easy to counter. If someone has a gang of cloaked ships in your system, they probably aren't AFK and they are still easy to counter. BTW, 5 minutes of anticloak is far too much. That's roughly 10 scan cycles in a covops. If they do something like this the decloak should be instaneous (and the cloaker if not afk should be able to recloak instantly). Using the anticloak should also require a great deal of fuel, as a combat setup capable of cloaking and doing anything other than gank solo haulers tends to be expensive. _____ Heat Warfare
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.17 23:52:00 - [43] Edited by: Tortun Nahme on 17/07/2007 23:52:07 Originally by: Santa Anna Originally by: Xiaodown People that want to leave cloaks as-is are starting to sound like the pro-nano-ships folks before injection vents got nerfed. It's a problem, it needs to be addressed - yet in such a way that it doesn't make the cloak useless; just balanced. If cloaks remained active when logging off and back on there'd be less of a reason to afk cloak. If a single afk cloaker is causing you significant problems, you need to go back to empire. Single cloaked ships are ridiculously easy to counter. If someone has a gang of cloaked ships in your system, they probably aren't AFK and they are still easy to counter. BTW, 5 minutes of anticloak is far too much. That's roughly 10 scan cycles in a covops. If they do something like this the decloak should be instaneous (and the cloaker if not afk should be able to recloak instantly). Using the anticloak should also require a great deal of fuel, as a combat setup capable of cloaking and doing anything other than gank solo haulers tends to be expensive. not recloak instantly, they need the usuall cool down time (ie my cheetah can recloak instantly, but that bs is screwed for a whole scan cycle) edit: also, not system wide, maybe grid wide though Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink. Nerfageddon
Taran Summers The Merovingians	Posted - 2007.07.17 23:56:00 - [44] Station module. Make it eat fuel to fire off. Then I like it.

Yipsilanti Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.07.18 00:02:00 - [45] This thread has been cleaned. Please be respectful of each other, do not spam, and do not troll. Thanks ___ forum rules \| [email protected] \| Our Website

Sindayn Itai Black Lotus Heavy Industries	Posted - 2007.07.18 00:24:00 - [46] Edited by: Sindayn Itai on 18/07/2007 00:24:28 Removing of local isn't the answer and it will never happen until CCP decide otherwise, arguing about it is pointless. Cloaking should be based on sig radius. For larger ships, it should be harder to sustain a cloak. With this, probes designed for penetrating a cloak would be used to scan down ships. The larger the ship using a cloak, the easier to probe it down. Covert Ops would be immune to this or be a pointless time to indulge.
Doctor Serious	Posted - 2007.07.18 00:50:00 - [47] this could work but probably needs to be slapped with a 10 AU range limit or something, and a 4 hour refiring delay and/or pretty expensive fuel requirements.
Doctor Serious	Posted - 2007.07.18 00:59:00 - [48] Originally by: Tasuric Orka Yeah, so.. without local and cloaks staying as they are there is no way to clear a system of hostiles. Doesnt sound like a healthy game mechanic. There's no way to clear a system of hostiles anyway. If they're cloaked and they don't wanna leave, they're not going to. Quite frankly, you shouldn't even know they're there if you can't detect them with the proper in-game mechanics. Hunting them because you see them in local is the equivalent of metagaming.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.18 01:25:00 - [49] how do you figure that? Local IS an ingame mechanic whether you "like" it or not Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink. Nerfageddon
Tu Madre	Posted - 2007.07.18 01:37:00 - [50] interesting - yeah i spose it would work out but you'd need to be able to recloak right away to be fair - those afkers obviously would'nt recloak cos they were afk. i need my cloak and having someone do a systemwide decloak is a pretty overpowered - if im doing an epic sneak through a gate camp and they know im there and are looking around for me and stuff the last thing i want is for some guy to fire an anti cloak that is system wide and uncloak me. what if theres a bubble up or somthing i'd be F'd. even if i recloaked it would really stuff up close range sneaking around because at 20k an inty wouldbe on you instantly and even if you recloaked you couldnt move away fast enough to get clear. this idea while working against afk cloakers is pointless to those of us who use it ligitimaatly imo. cheers
Xilimyth Derlin Gallente OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.18 02:09:00 - [51] If there's problems with local showing cloakers that's fine. Everyone wants to get rid of AFK cloakers or ships that have no business cloaking, fine. As a Covert Ops pilot whos job is to go into enemy systems for recon.... I completely disagree with this. My ship is unarmed.... my only defense is that cloak and playing smart by not sitting still. /agree to Prototype and Improved adjustments /disagree to Covert Ops Cloak adjustments. That is all ^^
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.18 02:17:00 - [52] Well it i strange that the proposition to remove local was only brought up once people started to discuss the problems with cloaking. First Sijira started trying to use straw man arguments to attempt to legitimize the current power of cloaking devices. 'A cloak should net be detectable, just due to the fact that indeed it is a cloak', this didnt work and you can see many examples of this in the thread he linked in a earlier post. After that failed he started to push his nerf-local campaign, which when argued against he sets up keeping the cloak as it is as a false compromise, if someone doesnt argue against him (I have gotten tired of his ramblings and unfortunately dont take the bait and reply to his posts) he uses proof by assertion, where he will keep restating his claims. In these threads he will often posts with alts creating a bandwagon fallacy, which leads people to believe he is correct because it looks like alot of other people also support him. The argument against cloaks has always revolved around the ability of the device to provide a situation where complete safety can be obtained. This is the main issue, especially so when the device is used to provide this protection to people who may not be actively playing the game, and using the time that they are not physically at the keyboard to gain an effect on the people playing in the area where the cloaker has decided to go afk. CCP addressed the problem and started making chages that would fix this on the test server, unfortunately several days after some changes became available on the test server the changes were removed due to the feature freeze. A fix was promised to happen after the patch sometime before rev3. As far as local goes, Sijira has assumed & stated many times that CCP wants local removed. But there have yet to be any official announcements made by CCP that would even hint to a change in the system. Also beginning with revelations many upgrades were made to the local chat, including the ability to easily determine friend from foe without having to view each players character information sheet. I believe that nobody should believe any assumption made by players about the intentions of CCP. And that CCP should follow their own game design ideas, and only change things when they see problems to their overall design plan. CCP has made many fixes to game mechanics in the past to aspects of the game where unintended results were produced. The most recent example being the nanophoon, other examples include stacking of weapons upgrades, dual microwarpdrives, & alpha strike to name a few. . Do not read this thread!!!
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.07.18 02:49:00 - [53] Originally by: ghosttr The argument against cloaks has always revolved around the ability of the device to provide a situation where complete safety can be obtained. This is the main issue, especially so when the device is used to provide this protection to people who may not be actively playing the game, and using the time that they are not physically at the keyboard to gain an effect on the people playing in the area where the cloaker has decided to go afk. Cloaked and AFK is different from in a station and AFK how? At any instant the AFKer could come back and do stuff!!!!!1111eleventyone Cloakers are safe only as long as they are idle. When they start doing stuff they are more vulnerable than non-cloaked ships. They pay a high price in ship capability and/or isk in order to cloak. If you fit your ships well enough to survive 2 minutes against a ship with gimped damage, tank, and/or target ability and stay in a gang with local non-afk friendlies that cloaker will leave, one way or another. People die to solo cloakers because they are disorganized and solo in an environment that is ill suited to solo play. _____ Heat Warfare
Urikko GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.07.18 02:57:00 - [54] Originally by: slothe tbh i dont know what the answer is, but cloaks are a huge problem atm How are they a huge problem? Someone cloaked in your 0.0 system doesn't allow you to safely rat? You are in 0.0, you should never feel safe. CCP should not touch cloaking. It is actually one of the most balanced skills. You are not invulnerable but are very effective. You don't like cloakers idling in your system, get back to empire.
Delvainar GoonFleet	Posted - 2007.07.18 03:20:00 - [55] Originally by: Urikko CCP should not touch cloaking. I agree. I don't see why people are upset about cloaking, the status quo favors all sides equally. The people on the offensive can hang out until they spot a hapless target (or a deadly trap). The people on the defensive can safe-spot and cloak and breathe a sigh of relief that they didn't get caught by a roaming gang. Any change to cloaking is NOT going to come in a form that only protects carebears from afk cloaked gankers. Be careful what you wish for.
Ryum852	Posted - 2007.07.18 03:28:00 - [56] One of the things that drew me to this game is the realism... sorta... As in if I die it really means something, and the threat from others is very real. One thing I look forward to is having to stay alert when playing in a dangerous section... Every other mmo I have played there are no real death penalties, and the places that you can really feel like you could be hunted at anytime are usually small (VERY small in comparison to EVE. I am 100% PVE atm, I have one char with cruiser skills... and not much else. So I don't claim in the slightest to know much about the game, but taking away that feeling of needing to actually pay attention in a MMO is rare. I think taking that away and adding a safety net would do the game a great diservice. In contrast if I want to chat in local I don't want that to be restricted cause of where I am... Maybe if in local you could see text just not the right panel of names/pictures would be a step in the right direction. That's how I have my NPC corp chat atm anyways, so it would work for me. If someone chooses to chat then you can click their name and see whatever info you want... Just my take on the situation.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.07.18 03:28:00 - [57] Originally by: ghosttr many lies your post was quite nice and you used links to - wikipedia - to try to legitimize your claims you are a very happy hypocrite first stop calling me a he - next stop saying i use alts to backup my ideas - and third of all dont try to recap a thread with a strong bias if you cant even provide links to the posts in which you claim i said something - i never stated any intention of what ccp wants to do to local last of all if anyone wants to get any idea about that thread without reading 24 pages they surely wont come to me or you but instead - since i believe there is intelligent life out there - will read the first and the last page and maybe a few in between and get their own perspective - lots of stuff is requoted there anyways now i would appreciate it if you accepted the right of free speech quit your personal attacks based on someones opposing opinions - this makes you seem ignorant and not very good at arguments - especially the false thread summary ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Kenneys RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.18 06:34:00 - [58] Everything needs a counter. What's the counter to cloak?
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.07.18 06:39:00 - [59] Originally by: Kenneys Everything needs a counter. What's the counter to cloak? Be in a gang and don't fit your ship like a fool. Your gang doesn't even have to be with you, just close enough to get you while the pants damage machine with the cloak tries to tickle its way through your tank. _____ Heat Warfare
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.07.18 09:28:00 - [60] Originally by: Santa Anna Originally by: Kenneys Everything needs a counter. What's the counter to cloak? Be in a gang and don't fit your ship like a fool. Your gang doesn't even have to be with you, just close enough to get you while the pants damage machine with the cloak tries to tickle its way through your tank. I think these particular points have strayed too far away from the OP's original suggestion. You guys have diverted the discussion to cloaking in general, rather than only about cloaking in an alliance's sovereign space. I like the idea. If an alliance has enough sovereignty in the system in question, they should have better defenses to include ferreting out snoops. As a covop specialist myself, I can dig this sort of comprimise. It still gives the cloaker a chance to go uncaught while also giving the owners a much better chance of clearing their space besides the oft suggested "gang up and take it" approach. The people who complain about cloaking ratters or cloaked afk-ish gankers could then be responded to with, "don't have enough sovereignty? Well then you can't really claim it as your space, can you?". Further, CCP seems to like small step solutions and I believe this one would qualify since it would only apply to a smaller percentage of 0.0 space due to the sovereignty level stipulation. Well done all around imo. ------------------- WE'RE SORRY, SOMETHING HAPPENED

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