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Xiaodown Lyran Procurement	Posted - 2007.07.17 18:48:00 - [1] So, I was tabletop role-playing (7th Sea) yesterday, and while a couple of guys were discussing how to get out of a situation they'd gotten themselves in, the DM and I were chatting about eve. I mentioned the cloaking thing, including the current controversy about AFK cloaking, and being able to terrorize a system while you're not at the keyboard, versus nerfing cloaks to the point that they're not useful. This guy - who is very into video games (waiting with baited breath for Darkfall), but who has never played eve - had this idea: A module or structure or some item that can render ineffective all cloaks (friendly and non-friendly) in a system for a short time so that the cloaker could be found. This item would have a high refire time - an hour or so - and would only decloak people for 5 minutes. This would give the people who live in the system a small window to probe him out - but they'd have to be on the ball with their probing skills and equipment, as well as the tacklers, so it would be a group effort. In addition, it would mean that if the cloaking ship is NOT afk, he can just warp between safe spots to avoid being found for 5m, and then he knows he's safe for another hour. It's waaay better than my idea, which was to add some sort of charge / ammo / consumable requirement to a cloak, which would be another expense and would take up cargo room. I thought it was a great idea, esp. coming from someone who doesn't play eve. ~Xiao -- Lyran procurement is offering tritanium compression services for 0.0 alliances. Low prices, 25:1 compression. Click for Details...
Dietes Marcellus	Posted - 2007.07.17 18:50:00 - [2] To be honest... I actually like that idea
Masheine	Posted - 2007.07.17 18:51:00 - [3] Your friend is a moron. Stop using local as an intelligence tool, and as if by magic, afk cloakers will cease to terrorize you. Ergo, remove local, problem solved.
Alora Venoda Caldari GalTech	Posted - 2007.07.17 18:57:00 - [4] fuel idea has been said before... not really practical. this idea however, seems to be in the right direction. i think it should require a POS to use it, but last longer than 5 min. perhaps it would be a special kind of probe (launched from POS) that cancels all cloaks in the area of effect? ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
Zwaplat Caldari Fusion Enterprises Ltd Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.07.17 18:57:00 - [5] Sounds good. Would certainly need to be a structure on a POS, for which you need a level of sov (a bit like the jump portal scrambler, or what's it called), so you can actually only use it a limited amount of times in one day. The idea certainly has its merits. It will not stop the whiners of course. :) ---------- I made a bet for 100M and a faction fitted Raven that I wouldn't get any dev/admin change to my signature even when I specifically ask not to. So please, think of my poor wallet!
milinkoee Bastage Incorporated 1 Shot 1 Kill	Posted - 2007.07.17 18:58:00 - [6] And after the 5 minutes, the next guy in your gang/corp uses the module to get another 5 minutes...repeat. Bastage, Inc. Worst Pirates Ever!!!
slothe Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.07.17 18:58:00 - [7] tbh i dont know what the answer is, but cloaks are a huge problem atm i see cloaks almost fitted as standard fittings atm. ive seen cloaks on all types of ships including recently a crow. its a joke tbh, the penalty has to be increased in some way. CCP please listen and do something.
Dietes Marcellus	Posted - 2007.07.17 19:08:00 - [8] Originally by: Masheine Your friend is a moron. Stop using local as an intelligence tool, and as if by magic, afk cloakers will cease to terrorize you. Ergo, remove local, problem solved. So i just suppose we stop looking at local chat and pretend it isn't there. Removing local is an entirley different topic and I thinks it going to be around for a bit longer. As there are cloaking modules there should also be decloaking modules
Beef Hardslab The 5 Amigo's LLC. NxT LeveL	Posted - 2007.07.17 19:10:00 - [9] Awesome idea. /says that because I've suggested it before hehe Why there should be a breathalyzer to login to Eve: Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii Podding my own alt in a gatecamp while drunk, he was carrying a hauler full of tech II goods, Oops.
Kharadran Sullath Caldari IntoXication Inc	Posted - 2007.07.17 19:12:00 - [10] Originally by: Masheine Your friend is a moron. Stop using local as an intelligence tool, and as if by magic, afk cloakers will cease to terrorize you. Ergo, remove local, problem solved. Wtg flaming someone who hasn't played EVE for coming up with a completely original suggestion on how to solve the afk cloaking problem. Epic fail. ------ --Don't get saucy with me Bernaise!--
Darcuese Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.17 19:12:00 - [11] Originally by: Dietes Marcellus Originally by: Masheine Your friend is a moron. Stop using local as an intelligence tool, and as if by magic, afk cloakers will cease to terrorize you. Ergo, remove local, problem solved. So i just suppose we stop looking at local chat and pretend it isn't there. Removing local is an entirley different topic and I thinks it going to be around for a bit longer. As there are cloaking modules there should also be decloaking modules My advice is..."Stop answering morons in local thread's....ergo, problem solved" me, myself and I ------>
Masheine	Posted - 2007.07.17 19:16:00 - [12] Originally by: Dietes Marcellus Removing local is an entirley different topic and I thinks it going to be around for a bit longer. As there are cloaking modules there should also be decloaking modules It's the exact same topic. Cloaking exists to prevent a player's ship from being detectable. Local unfortunately breaks a big part of that by letting you know there are people in system. CCP has said local was never meant to be used as an intelligence tool, it was just a convenience. The fact that it can be used to defeat a large part of the point of having a cloak means it's broken, and needs to be fixed. There's nothing wrong with cloaks. There's a lot wrong with local.
Dietes Marcellus	Posted - 2007.07.17 19:22:00 - [13] arrogant just because CCP never 'intended' local to be used that way doesn't mean people don't, if your cloaked in system then your cloaked. <without local> scan system - No targets Activate decloak modual scan system - 3 hostile targets dumbass
Masheine	Posted - 2007.07.17 19:30:00 - [14] Originally by: Dietes Marcellus arrogant just because CCP never 'intended' local to be used that way doesn't mean people don't, if your cloaked in system then your cloaked. <without local> scan system - No targets Activate decloak modual scan system - 3 hostile targets I have no idea what point you're trying to make here. I think you're trying to say that local has evolved into an intelligence, and that you're fine with that. Which is great. But if you're fine with the evolution of unintended tactics that work for you, you should also consider the validity of unintended tactics that work against you. AFK cloaking to "terrorize" your system is a direct result of you using local as an intelligence tool. It's an adaptation to your adaptation. The only real fix is to remove local, which you don't want, so suck it up and deal with it. Originally by: Dietes Marcellus dumbass There's no reason to get personally insulting. Moderators tend to frown on it.
T'Laar Bok	Posted - 2007.07.17 19:41:00 - [15] The ability to cloak should never have been introduced and needs to be removed.
Dietes Marcellus	Posted - 2007.07.17 19:43:00 - [16] Originally by: Masheine Originally by: Dietes Marcellus arrogant just because CCP never 'intended' local to be used that way doesn't mean people don't, if your cloaked in system then your cloaked. <without local> scan system - No targets Activate decloak modual scan system - 3 hostile targets I have no idea what point you're trying to make here. I think you're trying to say that local has evolved into an intelligence, and that you're fine with that. Which is great. But if you're fine with the evolution of unintended tactics that work for you, you should also consider the validity of unintended tactics that work against you. AFK cloaking to "terrorize" your system is a direct result of you using local as an intelligence tool. It's an adaptation to your adaptation. The only real fix is to remove local, which you don't want, so suck it up and deal with it. Originally by: Dietes Marcellus dumbass There's no reason to get personally insulting. Moderators tend to frown on it. Okay, maybe your not stupid..but your still arrogant, and i'm with you I would rather get rid of local. What i'm saying is people are terrorized by the fact that there is somebody cloaked in system, and they cannot do anything about it whether they can see them in local or not.
Tasuric Orka Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.17 19:46:00 - [17] Yeah, so.. without local and cloaks staying as they are there is no way to clear a system of hostiles. Doesnt sound like a healthy game mechanic.
Nobues Gallente DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.17 19:47:00 - [18] Originally by: Xiaodown So, I was tabletop role-playing (7th Sea) yesterday, and while a couple of guys were discussing how to get out of a situation they'd gotten themselves in, the DM and I were chatting about eve. I mentioned the cloaking thing, including the current controversy about AFK cloaking, and being able to terrorize a system while you're not at the keyboard, versus nerfing cloaks to the point that they're not useful. This guy - who is very into video games (waiting with baited breath for Darkfall), but who has never played eve - had this idea: A module or structure or some item that can render ineffective all cloaks (friendly and non-friendly) in a system for a short time so that the cloaker could be found. This item would have a high refire time - an hour or so - and would only decloak people for 5 minutes. This would give the people who live in the system a small window to probe him out - but they'd have to be on the ball with their probing skills and equipment, as well as the tacklers, so it would be a group effort. In addition, it would mean that if the cloaking ship is NOT afk, he can just warp between safe spots to avoid being found for 5m, and then he knows he's safe for another hour. It's waaay better than my idea, which was to add some sort of charge / ammo / consumable requirement to a cloak, which would be another expense and would take up cargo room. I thought it was a great idea, esp. coming from someone who doesn't play eve. ~Xiao No live with it or leave the game. Stupid people .. god stop trying to nuff every good damn thing in the game. This game should be cut off to people like you and your friend Webhosting, for you and your corp Webhosting for ISK
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.07.17 19:48:00 - [19] Cloaks are fine. Staying AFK while cloaked is fine. Being AFK and cloaked is neither better nor worse as being LOGGED-OFF. What's wrong is the fact you KNOW there's a cloaked ship in local. Remove that "intel" from local and you have a solution. Ergo, cloaked people should not show up in local. And they shouldn't even be able to enter text in local either (type all you want, just hitting enter has no effect, as if you pressed shift-enter instead). You shouldn't even be able to SEE what's written in local either. For all intents and purposes, while in cloak, you're almost the same as being logged-off. ...and a cloak allows instant (no-delay) login Char creation guide \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
Christari Zuborov	Posted - 2007.07.17 19:50:00 - [20] Originally by: Masheine Originally by: Dietes Marcellus arrogant just because CCP never 'intended' local to be used that way doesn't mean people don't, if your cloaked in system then your cloaked. <without local> scan system - No targets Activate decloak modual scan system - 3 hostile targets I have no idea what point you're trying to make here. I think you're trying to say that local has evolved into an intelligence, and that you're fine with that. Which is great. But if you're fine with the evolution of unintended tactics that work for you, you should also consider the validity of unintended tactics that work against you. AFK cloaking to "terrorize" your system is a direct result of you using local as an intelligence tool. It's an adaptation to your adaptation. The only real fix is to remove local, which you don't want, so suck it up and deal with it. Originally by: Dietes Marcellus dumbass There's no reason to get personally insulting. Moderators tend to frown on it. Absolutely correct - local should be removed. It's the absence of knowledge that people are afraid of. They don't know if someone's there, or maybe they aren't. Do I do anything because the boogey-man might be out? What was that?! Street-lights are on, RUN!!!!
Dietes Marcellus	Posted - 2007.07.17 20:00:00 - [21] Edited by: Dietes Marcellus on 17/07/2007 20:00:38 Removing local is just covering up what you don't want to see, its still there. Shove a hammer through your wall and then put a poster over it. Remove local get a decloak modual
Conman CONMAN Enterprise	Posted - 2007.07.17 20:11:00 - [22] Originally by: slothe tbh i dont know what the answer is, but cloaks are a huge problem atm i see cloaks almost fitted as standard fittings atm. ive seen cloaks on all types of ships including recently a crow. its a joke tbh, the penalty has to be increased in some way. CCP please listen and do something. no losing a slot then losing signature is bad enough then on top of that 9 seconds to relock... cloaking does have a damn use and leave it alone stop complaining about one of teh most underpowered module in the game. I am drunken irish slave hahaha i live
Conman CONMAN Enterprise	Posted - 2007.07.17 20:13:00 - [23] you people need to get off the forums and just play eve and stop complaining about a game you sighned up for
Dietes Marcellus	Posted - 2007.07.17 20:13:00 - [24] "underpowerd" ?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.07.17 20:20:00 - [25] Originally by: Dietes Marcellus Removing local is just covering up what you don't want to see, its still there. The MASS of whines is about "AFK cloaker disrupting local operations". That's because they SEE him there and go chicken... even if it poses absolutely no risk at all WHILE AFK. For most practical intents and purposes EXCEPT the "fear factor", logging in at a scout/spy signal is just as effective as an AFK cloaker. All an AFK cloaker has going for it is that "fear factor" while it's showing up in local. Remove that presence from local, and you remove the ONLY actual problem. Char creation guide \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
Mari Onette Amarr Gottland Production Transport Mines	Posted - 2007.07.17 20:28:00 - [26] I have said this before and I'll say it again. Only covert ops cloaks should be completely undetectable. Prototype and improved cloaks should allow a cloaked ship to be found by scan probes. This allows you the benefits of cloaking to be used by all ships (it's a wonderful way to avoid gate camps if you can cloak quick enough, among other uses...) but doesn't allow people to go AFK safely as you will be probed out and ganked. Covert ops cloaks only work on covert ops ships, and it's difficult to fit covops with the kind of weapon systems needed to be truly dangerous (They are better suited to cynoing in carriers). Is this a perfect solution? Not really, but it's balanced, aligns with the game lore well, and takes the winds out of the most malicious people out there using cloaks. Massive firepower, or completely undetectable. Pick one. ------ I am in blood! Stepp'd in so far that, should I wade no more, it would be as tedious as going over. -MacBeth
The RepoMan Caldari Red Horizon Inc Red Horizon	Posted - 2007.07.17 20:29:00 - [27] Originally by: Masheine Your friend is a moron. Stop using local as an intelligence tool, and as if by magic, afk cloakers will cease to terrorize you. Ergo, remove local, problem solved. I still giggle when i read moronic commments like this. OMFG The BBQ GUN IS SO DAMN POWERFUL!!! Well, just close your eyes, and you wouldnt know you're gettign shot by it! problem solved!... Well, back to drinking drano, cya!
BoBoZoBo Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.07.17 20:31:00 - [28] Edited by: BoBoZoBo on 17/07/2007 20:34:30 As an avid cloaker and removal of local candidate... I would be up for this under one Condition and a few Terms: Condition: You must have sovereignty in that system. Term: The module required to create this cloak dispruption field can only be run from a POS or Outpost. There is a limit to the range. Maybe a good 1,000 KM. This is plenty enough to know if someone is monitoring traffic around your POS. MAYBE allow a less powerful version to be activated from a Titan or Dred, but with a 250 KM range. Just to give Sovereigns a chance to hunt some one down. If not, I don't see the point. If someone is AFK in a far away safe-spot and he cannot see anything other than who enters local.. who cares. Requiring Sovereignty would give a little bonus to those who actually own space if they so care to police it. If the space is free space, all is fair and no one should be able to track you down while you are cloaked. However, who the hell cares if someone is AFK cloaking. How can they terrorize you if they cannot even soot at you or are not in front of thier computer to spy on you. This fear is silly... just plain silly willy. ========================= Minister of Propaganda - Operator 9
Vyyrus Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.17 20:37:00 - [29] Edited by: Vyyrus on 17/07/2007 20:38:29 Removing local for cloakers is gankers best friend they would be near unstoppable. The majority of cloakers scan at belt look for someone mining/ratting warp to their belt cloaked then decloak right next to them. Since there is no countermeasure against that how would removing local help? The only defense against cloakers right now it LOCAL, that is the only way to even determine whether or not someone is cloak now cloakers want more?
MrTripps Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.17 21:01:00 - [30] Originally by: Akita T For all intents and purposes, while in cloak, you're almost the same as being logged-off. Funny the gang of nine recon ships that have been buzzing our system didn't seem the same as being logged-off. That said I don't think they should be changed. Cloakers can be defeated with good tactics and team work. Hint: First you put a warp disrupter on a mining ship, then... "Life is nothing but a competition to be the criminal rather than the victim." - Bertrand Russell

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