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Chainsaw Plankton	Posted - 2007.07.18 09:33:00 - [61] Originally by: Mari Onette I have said this before and I'll say it again. Only covert ops cloaks should be completely undetectable. Prototype and improved cloaks should allow a cloaked ship to be found by scan probes. This allows you the benefits of cloaking to be used by all ships (it's a wonderful way to avoid gate camps if you can cloak quick enough, among other uses...) but doesn't allow people to go AFK safely as you will be probed out and ganked. Covert ops cloaks only work on covert ops ships, and it's difficult to fit covops with the kind of weapon systems needed to be truly dangerous (They are better suited to cynoing in carriers). Is this a perfect solution? Not really, but it's balanced, aligns with the game lore well, and takes the winds out of the most malicious people out there using cloaks. Massive firepower, or completely undetectable. Pick one. ^ that one
Cipher7 OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.18 10:06:00 - [62] I agree with the Outbreak guy. THeres just no penalty for using a cloak, all you lose is a high slot, which some ships already have extra highslot with no turret/launcher hardpoint, like Drake, you can just put cloak there, and warp to SS + cloak, nobody can ever find you. Dude the whole point of having sovereignty is to be able to ENFORCE that sovereignty. You tell me I own a system, but there exist no tools to get someone out who violate that sovereignty? Even if they have Titan there is a means to kill them/enforce sovereignty, but anything with a cloak = can violate sovereignty with no way to enforce? Down south in Providence, in CVA space they have chinese farmers that sit in Domi all day long. Someone come into local they ss+cloak. Its a running joke. Give ppl the tools to enforce sovereingty, or remove sovereignty and we call all use NPC stations. So at least I don't have to say, "this area is mine but CCP don't give me the tools to enforce it."
duckmonster GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.07.18 10:14:00 - [63] The only change needed is to remove cloaks from ratters and miners. I spent along time training up recons, specifically so I can Gank and Grief enemy carebears. Removing that cloaking ability would ruin the point of recons. Quit whinging. If you dont like black operation pvp, get out of 0.0 And seriously, if Im idling in system, waiting to make my strike, either ignore me, or get out of system. Its not hard. Or fight back. Shhhhhhh. just get a defense gang up ;) If Im fighting you might kill me, and if Im not, I pose you no harm. The ONLY people recons are 'unfair' on is AFK miners, aka macrominers. Who gives a **** about them.
Jane Spondogolo NoobWaffe	Posted - 2007.07.18 10:28:00 - [64] Originally by: Kenneys Everything needs a counter. What's the counter to cloak? Paying attention :) ______ Unrepentant Southern Federation Cheerleader.
Cipher7 OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.18 12:05:00 - [65] Originally by: Jane Spondogolo Originally by: Kenneys Everything needs a counter. What's the counter to cloak? Paying attention :) We're not talking about protecting ratters from cloakers. Everybody needs to be alert in 0.0 We're talking about 1) Intelligence gathering, which is a hostile act and 2) Being in someone's claimed territory ratting or doing something else, without any way to enforce your sovereignty over said territory. I'm not saying make Cov Ops useless, not at all. I myself am training for it, I love the concept, I don't want it to be gimped. But there has to be some way of making intelligence gathering effective while at the same time providing some counter to it, to put some pressure on the intel gatherer, to make them warp around, be evasive, something. Maybe a probe that takes a really long time to work, that decloaks you, so you have to work fast and give intel. This also would open up a new type of pvp profession : counter-intelligence. Sort of like a Spy vs Spy war. Something balanced that lets both sides do their jobs, without having unemployed ppl sitting 23 hours a day afk. The devs have stated time and again Eve is not intented to be played AFK. You don't fly AFK on autopilot through 0.0, why should you be able to be in someone's claimed space and meanwhile have time to go to take a 45 minute potty break? Ratters and miners have to be alert, why shouldn't cloak users have to be alert for decloaking probes? Bottom line, don't play Eve afk and you should be ok. I look forward to a balanced solution to cloaking that doesn't leave anybody gimped.
Oki Riverson Amarr Pre-nerfed Tactics	Posted - 2007.07.18 12:11:00 - [66] I love this idea. Maybe a new T2 ship could do this? or maybe an ability of the Flag Ship/T2 Battleships???
Irob Urore	Posted - 2007.07.18 12:12:00 - [67] fuel for cloaks is a nice idea, or a better idea is making cloaks only available on recon/covop ships = problems solved.
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Riggers Incorporated	Posted - 2007.07.18 12:39:00 - [68] Originally by: Mari Onette I have said this before and I'll say it again. Only covert ops cloaks should be completely undetectable. Prototype and improved cloaks should allow a cloaked ship to be found by scan probes. This allows you the benefits of cloaking to be used by all ships (it's a wonderful way to avoid gate camps if you can cloak quick enough, among other uses...) but doesn't allow people to go AFK safely as you will be probed out and ganked. Covert ops cloaks only work on covert ops ships, and it's difficult to fit covops with the kind of weapon systems needed to be truly dangerous (They are better suited to cynoing in carriers). Is this a perfect solution? Not really, but it's balanced, aligns with the game lore well, and takes the winds out of the most malicious people out there using cloaks. Massive firepower, or completely undetectable. Pick one. So, by your logic, only Rook, Blackbird and Scorpion should be allowed to fit ECM modules. Arbitrator and Pilgrim the Tracking Disruptor (can't remember other ships that have bonus to TD). Amarr beeing the only ones that can fit Laser weapons. Gallente the only ones that can fit Hybrid. Caldari the only one that can fit missiles. Any other ship would have a 99% decrease in effectivnes of said modules, as they do not have any bonus to the modules. That is a logic I personally don't want to see in the game, as it will remove all form of creativity.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.07.18 12:40:00 - [69] Originally by: Cipher7 I agree with the Outbreak guy. THeres just no penalty for using a cloak, all you lose is a high slot, which some ships already have extra highslot with no turret/launcher hardpoint, like Drake, you can just put cloak there, and warp to SS + cloak, nobody can ever find you. Dude the whole point of having sovereignty is to be able to ENFORCE that sovereignty. You tell me I own a system, but there exist no tools to get someone out who violate that sovereignty? Even if they have Titan there is a means to kill them/enforce sovereignty, but anything with a cloak = can violate sovereignty with no way to enforce? Down south in Providence, in CVA space they have chinese farmers that sit in Domi all day long. Someone come into local they ss+cloak. Its a running joke. Give ppl the tools to enforce sovereingty, or remove sovereignty and we call all use NPC stations. So at least I don't have to say, "this area is mine but CCP don't give me the tools to enforce it." oh i guess locking time isnt really a penalty at all - nope so when he uncloaks in front of your defenseless ratter you stare at him until he starts shooting - hmmmmmm ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Kharadran Sullath Caldari IntoXication Inc	Posted - 2007.07.18 13:13:00 - [70] Originally by: Masheine This guy doesn't play Eve, and the description of the problem presented to him was tainted and biased by the fact that the OP believes cloaks to be broken. People who don't play the game have no business suggesting fixes, especially when they haven't got an unbiased overview of the situation. Shove your fail. As he was told that cloaks were broken, he just thought out of the box and came up with a good solution. Whether or not he plays the game or if cloaks are broken or not is completely irrelevant, the solution to the issue, problem or not, is still good. Shove your "Shove your fail". ------ --Don't get saucy with me Bernaise!--
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.07.18 13:50:00 - [71] Originally by: Roy Batty68 I think these particular points have strayed too far away from the OP's original suggestion. You guys have diverted the discussion to cloaking in general, rather than only about cloaking in an alliance's sovereign space. If you let the cloaker into "your" space and aren't organized enough to deal with an isolated player in a weak ship, you shouldn't be able to earn invulnerability by running a pos for a few weeks. There are plenty of tactics for dealing with cloakers. Use them. Don't whinge for an i-win button to give you free kills against ships that give up gank and tank to cloak effectively. macroratting SS-cloaking ravens are another issue, though they would not be affected by this. Unless you're never in "your" system, you won't have macroratting SS-cloaking ravens where you can install this i-win POS module. If you get ganked by a "cloaker" other than a Force Recon, you need to stop afking around 0.0 and learn to use your scanner. This is not a problem with inadequate tools, it's a problem with inadequate players. The sole purpose of a module like this would be to transform 0.0 into a carebear castle. If you want to carebear, go to empire. _____ Heat Warfare
SiJira	Posted - 2007.07.18 14:06:00 - [72] Originally by: Santa Anna If you get ganked by a "cloaker" other than a Force Recon, you need to stop afking around 0.0 and learn to use your scanner. This is not a problem with inadequate tools, it's a problem with inadequate players. The sole purpose of a module like this would be to transform 0.0 into a carebear castle. If you want to carebear, go to empire. thats sig worthy ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
baaaaal	Posted - 2007.07.18 14:13:00 - [73] Quote: Cloaking exists to prevent a player's ship from being detectable. Local unfortunately breaks a big part of that by letting you know there are people in system. CCP has said local was never meant to be used as an intelligence tool, it was just a convenience. The fact that it can be used to defeat a large part of the point of having a cloak means it's broken, and needs to be fixed. or you could play spin-doctor and claim its broken because it lets the cloaked person know someone is there without him having to scout the system using the direction scanner which is intended to only work while uncloaked but its bugged (TM) at the moment
Xilimyth Derlin Gallente OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.18 14:26:00 - [74] I always thought something similar to a 'bubble' would be an ok compromise. Puts up a bubble to uncloak ships based off the power of the cloaking device with Cov. Ops cloaking being the most resistant (ie. having to be in the 'bubble' for more pulses.) Adds some new anchorables and a few new goodies for interdictor pilots too.
Red Harvest	Posted - 2007.07.18 15:17:00 - [75] I firmly believe that every module should have something to counter it and EVE is quite conform with that except for nos and cloaks. And with the amount of ppl fitting cloaks on everything (i saw even t1 frigs with cloaks) its gettig ridiculous and screams for a nerf, counter-module or detection array.
Hajyt Caldari EnTech	Posted - 2007.07.18 15:34:00 - [76] Just up the fitting requirements to some kind of %, maybe 40-50% of all cpu and pg. Or make it affect the cap in the same way....a large % per cycle. Meaning frigs and BS's alike can use it, but it will hugely gimp their setup and possibly make it not worth it at all. Atm, the fitting requirements are extremely low for such a powerful device. Of course covert ops and recons should have built in reductions for this. Just an idea.
Teron D'Amun The Burning Orphans Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.07.18 15:37:00 - [77] Edited by: Teron D''Amun on 18/07/2007 15:37:33 Originally by: Xiaodown A module or structure or some item that can render ineffective all cloaks (friendly and non-friendly) in a system for a short time so that the cloaker could be found. This item would have a high refire time - an hour or so - and would only decloak people for 5 minutes. it's not a new idea though, having a POS module that allows system-wide decloak to help residents fend off AFK cloakers has been suggested time and time again
DaveW Caldari South Park Development	Posted - 2007.07.18 15:37:00 - [78] "Fresh look at Cloaks.." How do you see a Cloak...? --------------------------------------------------- "If you can't stand the heat..., stay out of the Kitchen."
Tammarr	Posted - 2007.07.18 15:56:00 - [79] Excellent idea. Does it take cloaking away? Yeah for a couple of minutes every hour/couple of hours... does this so 'omg my cloak ship is worthless' ? No it dosent. It does however make people think twice when leaving their precious covop cloaked in an ss when they go to sleep for the night/work for the day. given that the system has sov.
Dietes Marcellus	Posted - 2007.07.18 16:12:00 - [80] You know what the problem is ? Cloaking sucks in general. When I started playing this game, I had imagined convoys of ships traveling vast distances for trading items and what not. A need for gaurds, indys, scouts. Its not like that. Now, to get from A to B people just throw cloak on their frigate. Its ***, and honestly I think it ruins the game (slightly) If anything, put a time limit on cloak, skill lvl effects time limit, simple correlation. oh yea and get rid of local
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.18 16:14:00 - [81] Originally by: milinkoee And after the 5 minutes, the next guy in your gang/corp uses the module to get another 5 minutes...repeat. ok I think he meant it would be a pos structure ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.18 16:15:00 - [82] wait minute why not just have ships that uncloak other ships in range. like in starcraft? ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP
Dietes Marcellus	Posted - 2007.07.18 16:17:00 - [83] cause we're thinking in terms of Astronomical Units
Steel Tigeress Gallente Silver Snake Enterprise Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.18 16:20:00 - [84] Originally by: Urikko Someone cloaked in your 0.0 system doesn't allow you to safely rat? You are in 0.0, you should never feel safe. Wow, thats the exact same thing we want applied to cloakers... You are in 0.0, you shouldnt be safe in my system for 9 hours while your at work.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.07.18 16:34:00 - [85] Originally by: Steel Tigeress Originally by: Urikko Someone cloaked in your 0.0 system doesn't allow you to safely rat? You are in 0.0, you should never feel safe. Wow, thats the exact same thing we want applied to cloakers... You are in 0.0, you shouldnt be safe in my system for 9 hours while your at work. 9 hours at work u wont do anything - when you get back and uncloak to attack - you can die - and the smart people do kill cloakers ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Dietes Marcellus	Posted - 2007.07.18 16:42:00 - [86] Originally by: SiJira Originally by: Steel Tigeress Originally by: Urikko Someone cloaked in your 0.0 system doesn't allow you to safely rat? You are in 0.0, you should never feel safe. Wow, thats the exact same thing we want applied to cloakers... You are in 0.0, you shouldnt be safe in my system for 9 hours while your at work. 9 hours at work u wont do anything - when you get back and uncloak to attack - you can die - and the smart people do kill cloakers stfu your not getting the point
Aldee Federated Holdings	Posted - 2007.07.18 17:10:00 - [87] Originally by: Hajyt Just up the fitting requirements to some kind of %, maybe 40-50% of all cpu and pg. Or make it affect the cap in the same way....a large % per cycle. Meaning frigs and BS's alike can use it, but it will hugely gimp their setup and possibly make it not worth it at all. Atm, the fitting requirements are extremely low for such a powerful device. Of course covert ops and recons should have built in reductions for this. Just an idea. Thats the same idea I have basically. Your is more simple cause it uses a certain % of fittings. This reminds me of when the game 1st came out and there was one sized mwd that worked on anything from a frigate -> battleship cause its fittings were so low and it only took like 5 pw to fit and use. CCP decided to fix that by making different sizes of that module that only works on certain sized ships (effectively that is). It wouldn't bother me at all if the made different sized cloak modules as well although this would be a prob when it comes to the covert cloak since the t2 bpo lottery is dead and new sizes would need to be introduced. This is a cloaking device and should require large amounts of power to fit and operate keep a ship effectively cloaked minus the covert ships since they were built for that purpose. just as wcs got changed to have a bigger gimping factor by mounting them cloaks should have the same thing. Of course none of this should effect the covert ships (/me mentions this one more time before ppl scream about that)
Trak Cranker Serenity Inc	Posted - 2007.07.18 17:17:00 - [88] Edited by: Trak Cranker on 18/07/2007 17:20:16 Originally by: SiJira 9 hours at work u wont do anything - when you get back and uncloak to attack - you can die - and the smart people do kill cloakers SiJira, you have been told countles time why this is not true. The opponents don't know when you are there or when you are AFK. Regardless of what you can and cannot do to counter it when he is ative and regularly decloaking, an enemy presence in a system forces a modus operandi that is not required when there is no such presence. That brutally translates to an isk difference. And that is all fine and good - I don't want to take this away from the cloakers. If they are actually playing. (I would perhaps prefer a constant risk for the unattentive, but I that is less important in regards to this issue) I cannot get it into my skull how it can be defended that you should be able to do this hours on end, while you are not at the keyboard. It is a tactic that has zero risk, minimum of effort and tons of reward. I've never seen such rampant acceptance of such a thing in EVE before. If I could sit in my recliner and watch a movie and press my "blow up 30m worth of enemy equipment" button every hour, I guess such a thing would be slightly less defended. But it is same-same, really. As far as the concrete suggestion posted here, I am not so sure it would be the fairest solution. Add a 30 sec warning timer for the cloaker, and I would like a little bit more. But as an idea, especially one concocted by an outsider, its not at all bad.
Vorketh Mordanil Amarr Brotherhood of Acquisitions	Posted - 2007.07.18 18:15:00 - [89] The unfortunate route of this debate, considering that CCP has already stated plent of times that changes to cloaks are in the future, is that non-covops cloaks will likely go the way of the warp stab... they will work the same, but make your ship much more difficult to use in combat. I favor making local non-autoupdated... those willing to broadcast their presence are made known... however, like jet-can mining (another unintended mechanic), the general populace has gotten so use to it that changes aren't likely... I don't care what happens as long as cov-ops cloaks aren't affected, and that the counter measures require cloaking skill (gotta know the enemy before you can fight it) to ensure that at the very least the SP need is balanced. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xiaodown Lyran Procurement	Posted - 2007.07.20 04:03:00 - [90] Edited by: Xiaodown on 20/07/2007 04:09:30 Originally by: Urikko How are they a huge problem? Someone cloaked in your 0.0 system doesn't allow you to safely rat? You are in 0.0, you should never feel safe. Um, don't you see the problem with your argument? I mean, it's right here: "You are in 0.0, you should never feel safe.". You say that to someone who is trying to rat / mine / prop up their empire by doing tasks which generate money. They should never feel safe because they're in 0.0. It's not safe out there. People in cloaking ships are just a natural result of this. But turn the argument around. Someone who is deep in enemy territory should ALSO never feel safe. Yet, with a cloak, you are safe enough to stand up and walk away from the computer WHILE YOU ARE STILL IN SPACE, and come back HOURS LATER. If "you're never supposed to feel completely safe in 0.0" is an argument to keep cloaking the way it is, I'm missing something. Cloaking is pretty much the only way you can be totally safe in 0.0, other than being docked. ~Xiao -- Lyran procurement is offering tritanium compression services for 0.0 alliances. Low prices, 25:1 compression. Click for Details...

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