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Afk cloaking is now an exploit

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firepup82 The Ankou The Reckoning.	Posted - 2007.07.25 02:44:00 - [151] Edited by: firepup82 on 25/07/2007 02:47:28 Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby And again I am amazed that they call US carebears. Those of us that live in HighSec deal with our "profits" being screwed with all the time. We get suicide ganked (can't do much about it), we get our ore stolen (don't jetcan mine == LOST PROFITS), we get missions scanned out and looted, we get missions scanned out and salvaged while we are still killing the rats, we get a CONSTANT stream of posts of how our risk/reward is screwed up and our ISK making needs to be nerfed, we get a constant stream of posts about how unfair it is that they can't wardec NPC corps. Go into 0.0? Guess what, the 0.0 people pop us immediately; NPC Corps can't even negotiate access. Gads, everything we do is dangerous if we don't pay attention and we earn less than 1/10th of the amount a 0.0 person makes doing the same thing. And now we have a steady stream of posts about how unfair it is that someone in local WHO ISN'T SHOOTING AT THEM is ruining their profits and making it so they can't undock (read the many whines). What do you call a Carebear that is worse that what WE are?!?!?! I'm still at a loss..... Nothing wrong with care bearing....Guess what. I did it for along time before I went to 0.0 And its a hell of alot more profitable for me to be in empire. I stayed there to get the iskies to pvp. I stayed long enough to run 2 lv4 agents, in an out of the way system. I just recently returned to 0.0 (within the last 1.5 months) I have never been probed out or harassed in anyway while doing missions. You must be in Jita. In less than 4 months I racked up 2 million lp's...thats 1mil each with 2 agents. I cashed in with each agent for 2 X 2 navy meagathron bpc's. I sold all 4 before patch at, or around 850mil. So dont say you can make more in 0.0. You take risks there, you lose ships. And ratting is ok but you have a huge risk there also. Oh, and I have seen both sides....extensively. With that being said. The cloaked ship really only applies to the 0.0 carebears. Not the empire ones. Sorry Anaalys Fluuterby I was alittle off topic. I'm flustered and didnt see that you were making a point on the whiners :) Sorry again
Kristen Ambrais	Posted - 2007.07.25 03:00:00 - [152] Originally by: Shenko Minara Edited by: Shenko Minara on 24/07/2007 14:16:50 Either way, cloaks aren't overpowered, and until you come up with a good argument as to why they are, you should refrain from posting as such. Yes they are. Cloaks grant a 100% immunity to being found on scanners and being probed out. The fact that a cloaker can sit AFK in a system for hours and days on end without worry is proof that they are overpowered. With this combined with combat abilities they are able to hunt at their leisure, meaning that as long as they're smart about picking targets (which they can also do at their leisure since they cannot be spotted), the risk of losing a ship for them approaches nil. Even HAC's and other T2 ships have small to moderate risk of losing a ship regardless of how well the pilot is at operating solo.
firepup82 The Ankou The Reckoning.	Posted - 2007.07.25 03:01:00 - [153] Originally by: Kristen Ambrais Originally by: Shenko Minara Edited by: Shenko Minara on 24/07/2007 14:16:50 Either way, cloaks aren't overpowered, and until you come up with a good argument as to why they are, you should refrain from posting as such. Yes they are. Cloaks grant a 100% immunity to being found on scanners and being probed out. The fact that a cloaker can sit AFK in a system for hours and days on end without worry is proof that they are overpowered. With this combined with combat abilities they are able to hunt at their leisure, meaning that as long as they're smart about picking targets (which they can also do at their leisure since they cannot be spotted), the risk of losing a ship for them approaches nil. Even HAC's and other T2 ships have small to moderate risk of losing a ship regardless of how well the pilot is at operating solo. Keep after CCP....maybe they will start a noob server for you.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.25 03:07:00 - [154] Originally by: Kristen Ambrais Originally by: Shenko Minara Edited by: Shenko Minara on 24/07/2007 14:16:50 Either way, cloaks aren't overpowered, and until you come up with a good argument as to why they are, you should refrain from posting as such. Yes they are. Cloaks grant a 100% immunity to being found on scanners and being probed out. The fact that a cloaker can sit AFK in a system for hours and days on end without worry is proof that they are overpowered. With this combined with combat abilities they are able to hunt at their leisure, meaning that as long as they're smart about picking targets (which they can also do at their leisure since they cannot be spotted), the risk of losing a ship for them approaches nil. Even HAC's and other T2 ships have small to moderate risk of losing a ship regardless of how well the pilot is at operating solo. and of course their reward for being cloaked is... yeah nothing they risk nothing, they gain nothing ADAPT OR DIE Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink. Nerfageddon
Ryum852	Posted - 2007.07.25 03:29:00 - [155] K i have read over this, and seen the argument that someone afk while cloaked is an issue because they are costing you money But that doesn't make sense. Even if CCP said Local is a intel tool deal with it. That person being in the same zone does not control what you do. You are choosing to go elsewhere. You are not being made to go some place else. That is like saying I can never speed because police might pull me over... I know someplace in a long enough length of high way that there is a cop somewhere hiding out, or dealing with someone else. I know it... 100% for some reason that the cop is there, but I don't know where. Does that cop MAKE me HAVE to slow down? Nope. I get to choose, just like anyone else. The only way that cop cost me money is if he pulls me over while speeding, and gives me the ticket... which would be like if the stealther sneaks up on you, does damage, and blows you up. Can he cost you money? YES but he can't do that while afk Can the cop pull you over if he is feet out the window having a full bore nap?? NOO I really hope that I have explained this clearly... cause at this point I really don't know how I could break it down in a way that could be understood better.
Drizit Amarr Lonely out here Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.25 03:40:00 - [156] Nerf local. You don't know they are there... Problem solved. It's only because local is being used for intel that you even know there is a hostile in the system at all. Get rid of local and bring in constellation chat only and it solves this issue completely. --
awaytime	Posted - 2007.07.25 03:42:00 - [157] Im just going to reply that afk isnt an exploit and never was. I cant be bothered wi this argument again. Cloakers need improving if anything.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.07.25 05:01:00 - [158] Originally by: Tortun Nahme Originally by: Trak Cranker Originally by: Tortun Nahme so in your post you point out that there are precautions and thus things that can be done to protect against damage from these cloakers, why exactly would ccp nerf something that can be countered? Because those precautions come at a cost. And that cost can be exacted by a player thats not playing. Has this been totally unclear the first 6 times it has been laid out in this thread? Imagine if you would log in and find that your groups ships blew up with regular intervals - for no other reason than the fact that I am logged in. and that, is risk vs reward, he is risking little and gaining nothing, you are risking nothing and gaining little ADAPT OR DIE slave can you stop spreading my views? ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried!
SiJira	Posted - 2007.07.25 05:06:00 - [159] Originally by: Trak Cranker Originally by: SiJira Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: SiJira you dont deserve 100% of the rewards - ever Why not? if i have to spell it out for you id rather tell you - gtfback to empire SiJira - are you going to pull something like that everytime someone confronts you with something you can't answer? why not to a statement like you dont deserve 100% rewards towards someone who obviously isnt able or doesnt want to put in the work for them is not an question worth anything more than ridicule Quote: If noone is willing to oppose you, do you not deserver to maximising your rewards? Or do you want an artificial cap instated? The argument here being that someone sitting afk in an unassailable position opposing this maximising, is unreasonable. Or not as you might argue it. they are not there all day you get a defensive gang and you keep them with you - it might seem like the person can return from afk at anytime but if you cant remove them for weeks you will see a definite pattern of inactivity emerge Quote: Then you wont find it unreasonable either if CCP makes it possible to dedicate an account to just syphon 5000(and thats a concervative number) isk per second from another players, corps, alliances account - while sitting in a station? After all, you should never get 100% of the rewards. risk vs reward = profit risk can be substituted with work if you cant get defense for your defenseless activities then you obviously cant afford it - it means you dont deserve to get any of the wards - for if you could afford it then you would afford it and you would go into a system with 2 or 1 stargate and have both gates camped while you are in that system - there are hundreds of empty systems you can set up such an operation at ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried!
Gorefacer	Posted - 2007.07.25 05:28:00 - [160] Originally by: Sartaron You always talk about AFK cloakers. What you want is just nerf all cloakers. How do you even know they are AFK? When I use my alt to observe a gate and play with my main somewhere else, would you consider this AFK-cloaking, too, even when im physically not AFK? Said observer wont do anything for hours... It seems to me that the fact that there is no way to know whether they are AFK or not is precisely why some people have a problem with this tactic. Players must change their gameplay for the precieved threat of the cloaker. Make it so that they auto-log after every 30min or so. That way if they aren't AFK they can move every 15 minutes or so if they wish. In this scenario cloakers can still use disruption tactics or observe, and the rest of us will at least have the satisfaction of knowing that they at least need to be in the general vicinity of their keyboards to accomplish this. This is probably not the best solution to the problem, just trying to clarify where the issue for many of us lie. It's not the ACTIONS of a cloaker AFK, but the way he can AFFECT others gameplay while gone doing something else for HOURS if they wish. I wouldn't like it if a group of players could effectively give the perception of camping a station while they were actually all doing their laundry. The mechanics of local chat allow a cloaker to do just this, but on a smaller scale for the whole system. If people want to camp a station, then they should have their hands on the keyboard and their ships outside the station, if cloakers want to intimidate miners and haulers, I can see why they would want the cloaker to also be at least somewhat present in the game. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Saint Lazarus C R Y O FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.25 05:29:00 - [161] URAAALL TOURNAAGGMEEENNNNT ------------------------------
SiJira	Posted - 2007.07.25 05:31:00 - [162] Originally by: Gorefacer Originally by: Sartaron You always talk about AFK cloakers. What you want is just nerf all cloakers. How do you even know they are AFK? When I use my alt to observe a gate and play with my main somewhere else, would you consider this AFK-cloaking, too, even when im physically not AFK? Said observer wont do anything for hours... It seems to me that the fact that there is no way to know whether they are AFK or not is precisely why some people have a problem with this tactic. Players must change their gameplay for the precieved threat of the cloaker. Make it so that they auto-log after every 30min or so. That way if they aren't AFK they can move every 15 minutes or so if they wish. In this scenario cloakers can still use disruption tactics or observe, and the rest of us will at least have the satisfaction of knowing that they at least need to be in the general vicinity of their keyboards to accomplish this. This is probably not the best solution to the problem, just trying to clarify where the issue for many of us lie. It's not the ACTIONS of a cloaker AFK, but the way he can AFFECT others gameplay while gone doing something else for HOURS if they wish. I wouldn't like it if a group of players could effectively give the perception of camping a station while they were actually all doing their laundry. The mechanics of local chat allow a cloaker to do just this, but on a smaller scale for the whole system. If people want to camp a station, then they should have their hands on the keyboard and their ships outside the station, if cloakers want to intimidate miners and haulers, I can see why they would want the cloaker to also be at least somewhat present in the game. an afk timer is the only solution that doesnt break active cloakers gameplay - cloaks are balanced in that regard perfectly the only counter to this point is that people can macro it means its a great idea ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried!
BluOrange Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.07.25 05:43:00 - [163] Originally by: BlackMoon Thrawn There seems to be people on both sides of the argument who are carebears and also some who are pvpers. To those who can't seem to wrap their head around the problem, it's the disparity in the amount of work involved with one side vs the other. You can bring in as many ships as you want, whatever type you want, but, you cannot find the cloaked ship unless the pilot allows it. The game doesn't have to be fair, but it does need to be balanced. This is not balanced. The fact that cloakers appear in local at all is a very serious nerf to cloaking. You may not be able to find him, but you know he's there. The fact that cloakers have found a way to turn this to their advantage is fine with me. Nerf local and cloaking, but cloaking should not be nerfed before local, and local should not be nerfed until people can construct sensor nets and pos scanning arrays. Recruitment FAQ
Roastedpot Antares Frontier The Fifth Race	Posted - 2007.07.25 05:48:00 - [164] i personally think that having a cloak on a battleship is rediculous. eliminating them will also give people a slight defense against isk farmers in thier ravens with cloak.. battle ships with cloaks are just annoying ATF is currently recruiting. read thread for more info. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=411575
Misses Gap Caldari The Lantern Mining Corporation	Posted - 2007.07.25 08:58:00 - [165] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Originally by: d026 WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? STFU! I'll make it clearer for you: EvE is unfair. Wartargets can dock or stay in dock and "harrass" people too. Even cut off access to Jita because they are "there" and you can't do anything about it. Wow, guess we have to nerf stations when 2 corporations are at war, its unfair we can't scan them down and kill them Spot on Anaalys - that is exactly what I meant. :) D026 - go and take a chillpill man :P Both being afk, cloaking or staying docked at a station to pose a threat are part of Eves possibilities to do "mind-PvPing". I see no reason to change this at all as I believe it is intended that way by the Devs. This game is meant to be a mean mother. Gap Attention you need. Children play in the snow aloud. The cat has been podded!
Trak Cranker Serenity Inc	Posted - 2007.07.25 10:15:00 - [166] Little pup and Tortun; I don't know why I need to repeat this: I do not live with this problem, nor is there a chance of that in the immediate future. I am neither afraid or unafraid of any cloakers, or in a situation where I have to be either. My stance on this is not based on some horrible experience. It is purely based on the logical parts of the issue, and my sense of what fair gameplay is. What I am doing is: 1) Disputing the argument that en AFK cloaker does nothing to his opponents. You have to disregard quite a bit of reality to claim that. 2) Arguing that the influence from 1) should not be possible while afk for hours. firepup, you seem intent on making this a matter of epeen. Is it totally beyond your mental capabilities to imagine that someone just has an opinion based on what they think is right or wrong?
Trak Cranker Serenity Inc	Posted - 2007.07.25 10:18:00 - [167] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby And now we have a steady stream of posts about how unfair it is that someone in local WHO ISN'T SHOOTING AT THEM is ruining their profits and making it so they can't undock (read the many whines). Actually noone is whining about that part. Its that they can do it while leaving the computer for hours.
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.25 10:23:00 - [168] T2 probes to find cloaked ships. If the pilot isn't afk, then they can move etc as they will see probes in the air or simply move postion but if afk overnight or whtever ( surely you would log if you went to bed ?! ) , then ye be doomed to a painful death. also, would help with hunting the farmers that infest 0.0 these days. If so many people didn't abuse the afk cloaking overnight thing so much, it wouldn't have been noticed and not deemed a problem, but it has, and is. Simple as that really. GOONIES = OMNIPOTENCE INCARNATE
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Riggers Incorporated	Posted - 2007.07.25 10:23:00 - [169] Easy solution to the AFK cloakers. Remove local, then you don't know the cloakers are there as you shouldn't. But local isn't going anywhere, so read up on history to get another solution or 3.
Kindakrof Caldari Cruor Frater Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.07.25 10:27:00 - [170] CCP Are fixing This kind of stuff?????!?!?!? This just goes to show that 0.0 alliances are more important than empire. There are far bigger issues that need some handling. --- --- ---
SiJira	Posted - 2007.07.25 10:28:00 - [171] Originally by: Kindakrof CCP Are fixing This kind of stuff?????!?!?!? This just goes to show that 0.0 alliances are more important than empire. There are far bigger issues that need some handling. read the thread - cloaking is not an issue ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried!
Trak Cranker Serenity Inc	Posted - 2007.07.25 10:39:00 - [172] Originally by: Kindakrof There are far bigger issues that need some handling. We can agree on that. :) And I don't think CCP is doing anything on this atm. Debating the facts in this and talking about losses or not losses can make this issue seem bigger than it is. Personally I am possibly more annoyed with the amount of stone cold facts on this issue that people are willing to dispute, than with the actual issue.
Fswd	Posted - 2007.07.25 10:47:00 - [173] Originally by: Marisal Thought that would grab your attention but... tbh its true if you think about it afk cloaking in a system to prevent its use is exactly the same as following a user around and killing them repeatedly both impede a users enjoyment of the game which im my opinion would be classed as harassment or a user or group of users. Now I know currently the issue is still up in the air but as its starting become a rife form of underhanded tactics so ccp either allow probing of cloaked ships, OR Put a threshold point on the duration of a cloak activation after which an overload builds up destroying the cloak. Also set it up so that repeatedly turning the cloak on and off to get around this overload does nothing as long as you remain in the same system. OR Simplest put an afk timer on the cloak if someones afk for 5 or more minutes cloak off lines not just turns off but actually off lines or alternatively overloads. and trust me im saying this as someone who flys covops and recon it will be better this way. How is cloaking in a system denying the use of stations, jumpgates and anything else you can think of? --- Free exotic dancers for mods that mod my sig Snip Please do not discuss moderation in your signature. -Yipsilanti ([email protected]) <-- freebie for you
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.07.25 11:31:00 - [174] Originally by: Misses Gap Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Originally by: d026 WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? STFU! I'll make it clearer for you: EvE is unfair. Wartargets can dock or stay in dock and "harrass" people too. Even cut off access to Jita because they are "there" and you can't do anything about it. Wow, guess we have to nerf stations when 2 corporations are at war, its unfair we can't scan them down and kill them Spot on Anaalys - that is exactly what I meant. :) D026 - go and take a chillpill man :P Both being afk, cloaking or staying docked at a station to pose a threat are part of Eves possibilities to do "mind-PvPing". I see no reason to change this at all as I believe it is intended that way by the Devs. This game is meant to be a mean mother. Gap sorry i dont see any connection between cloaking and dockin.. at least docking in 0.0 could be dangerous. they can shoot all pos's then take over the outpost denie you docking rights:)
Chrysalis D'lilth	Posted - 2007.07.25 11:38:00 - [175] Originally by: firepup82 Edited by: firepup82 on 25/07/2007 02:47:28Nothing wrong with care bearing....Guess what. I did it for along time before I went to 0.0 And its a hell of alot more profitable for me to be in empire. I stayed there to get the iskies to pvp. I stayed long enough to run 2 lv4 agents, in an out of the way system. I just recently returned to 0.0 (within the last 1.5 months) I have never been probed out or harassed in anyway while doing missions. You must be in Jita. In less than 4 months I racked up 2 million lp's...thats 1mil each with 2 agents. I cashed in with each agent for 2 X 2 navy meagathron bpc's. I sold all 4 before patch at, or around 850mil. So dont say you can make more in 0.0. You take risks there, you lose ships. And ratting is ok but you have a huge risk there also. Oh, and I have seen both sides....extensively. You could of made 3-4 billion in 0.0 in less than 25% of the time. Mission running is hardly the best way to earn cash in EvE.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.07.25 11:43:00 - [176] Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth Originally by: firepup82 Edited by: firepup82 on 25/07/2007 02:47:28Nothing wrong with care bearing....Guess what. I did it for along time before I went to 0.0 And its a hell of alot more profitable for me to be in empire. I stayed there to get the iskies to pvp. I stayed long enough to run 2 lv4 agents, in an out of the way system. I just recently returned to 0.0 (within the last 1.5 months) I have never been probed out or harassed in anyway while doing missions. You must be in Jita. In less than 4 months I racked up 2 million lp's...thats 1mil each with 2 agents. I cashed in with each agent for 2 X 2 navy meagathron bpc's. I sold all 4 before patch at, or around 850mil. So dont say you can make more in 0.0. You take risks there, you lose ships. And ratting is ok but you have a huge risk there also. Oh, and I have seen both sides....extensively. You could of made 3-4 billion in 0.0 in less than 25% of the time. Mission running is hardly the best way to earn cash in EvE. try to make some isk in geminate:)
SiJira	Posted - 2007.07.25 16:02:00 - [177] funny i already made the two posts the break the anti cloakers argument to pieces and crush the pieces into dust - but they didnt get any answers unless you count a why not to the post that was a statement and not a question - CCP is smarter than you trolls ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried!
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2007.07.25 18:01:00 - [178] Quote: tbh its true if you think about it afk cloaking in a system to prevent its use is exactly the same as following a user around and killing them repeatedly both impede a users enjoyment of the game which im my opinion would be classed as harassment or a user or group of users. TBH if you are to chicken to undock because someone else is in yor system then you shouldnt be in 0.0. you are the classic 0.0 carebear who prolly argues that suicide ganking in empire is good and balanced and needed. Every arguement against cloakers in 0.0 comes down to the exact same element you want to be able to play in your little 0.0 domain with 100% safety. Sorry if the argument to allow something as lame as suicide ganking inempire is that no where in eve is supposed to be 100% safe then I cannot fathom how in the world you can look someone in the eye and suggest you should have 100% safe gameplay in 0.0 by staring at an empty local channel. The day suicide ganking in empire is made illegal is the day we can dicsuss being able to do something about cloakers in 0.0.....
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.07.25 18:12:00 - [179] I still say that we should make cloaks leave people able to be scanned, but with a 75% or 90% reduction in signature radius. Make it so anyone manning their ship can move on waaaaaay before being scanned down. ------------ ULTIMATE LAG SOLUTION IBTL! IBDS/DC! IBTC! 1st in a BoB post! And other such forum tom-foolery.
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2007.07.25 18:20:00 - [180] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 Quote: tbh its true if you think about it afk cloaking in a system to prevent its use is exactly the same as following a user around and killing them repeatedly both impede a users enjoyment of the game which im my opinion would be classed as harassment or a user or group of users. TBH if you are to chicken to undock because someone else is in yor system then you shouldnt be in 0.0. you are the classic 0.0 carebear who prolly argues that suicide ganking in empire is good and balanced and needed. Every arguement against cloakers in 0.0 comes down to the exact same element you want to be able to play in your little 0.0 domain with 100% safety. Sorry if the argument to allow something as lame as suicide ganking inempire is that no where in eve is supposed to be 100% safe then I cannot fathom how in the world you can look someone in the eye and suggest you should have 100% safe gameplay in 0.0 by staring at an empty local channel. The day suicide ganking in empire is made illegal is the day we can dicsuss being able to do something about cloakers in 0.0..... don't be so narrow minded, it's not like several people haven't explained this in this thread or many other places. it's not that people are 'too chicken to undock' when an afk cloaker is in system. it's that no one is stupid enough to undock in a hauler or barge because that's all they will uncloak for (except the occasional ratter in an empty system). they only uncloak when conditions are favorable to THEM. so getting together a pvp force, setting up traps, etc. are not going to work as you simply state as the obvious. ESPECIALLY when you get a force together, they safe spot, cloak and afk. so no, every argument about cloakers does NOT inevitably come to your conclusion. it only comes to that conclusion when one wants to twist the issue to sound like something trivial and easily countered, when in reality it is not.. and has been explained several hundred times. stop the ignorant speculation when the opposite arguments and conclusions are posted all over in the thread above your post. it only comes across as ignorance or blatantly trying to derail the argument with a contradiction to the very statements you are replying to. Please stop messing with my signature!!!

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