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@ DEVS: When can we expect a native linux client?

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 7 post(s)
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.28 09:55:00 - [91] Originally by: Andrue Originally by: Norwood Franskly Your arguement about package dependencies seems fairly weak to me, just put the onus on the user to maintain he's packages. why the censored should the user have to do any such thing? Maybe I've misunderstood your posting but ISTM that it's an example of exactly why Linux has never made it into the mainstream. Users want to use their computer not ** around with it. I don't have to 'manage my packages' when I'm using Windows. I can just install and play the game. That's what I like and that's what 95% of the computer users in the world want to do. Until/unless the majority of Linux supporters realise this they will never, ever get their precious OS out of the niche that it currently occupies. *****s. Portage on Gentoo goes 'o rly' and installs every dep you need to the correct version. So all _I_ do is hit 'install' and boom, there it is. Next fallacy please? -J ----------------------------- "Oh, we're sorry, you had the 'NakedAmarrChicks' bit flagged in your account somehow." "Wait, why was there even a flag for that to begin with?" "..."
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.28 10:08:00 - [92] Edited by: J''Mkarr Soban on 28/07/2007 10:08:44 Originally by: Human Cattle Originally by: Patch86 Originally by: Gyrn Fzirth bolded the relevant part of this asinine argument. I upgraded java, yet didn't have to upgrade my drivers to x.y.z, upgrade my window manager to n, upgrade all other dependent parts of the pacakge within the os to k, y, l, o, l because its not NECESSARY to do so. I upgrade java without a concern about which sp of the os I'm on. Linux requires users to upgrade packages that (in the user view of things) are utterly unrelated and totally separate from the fricking application or service they are trying to upgrade. Package management in windows is SIMPLE because you only need to manage the packages for the relevant application or service. Linux on the other hand requires a fricking act of congress and recompilation of the kernel to accomplish basic things. When I install a program in Windows, I run the installer for that program. It then prompts me that I need [whatever] version of Direct X, so I go and run a separate installer for that. It might prompt me that I need to update my .NET Runtime Environment, so I run a third installer for that. If its a graphics-intensive program, it may require a video driver update; I go to the website and download the fourth installer for that. In Linux, to install the same program I simply click "install". If any of that other stuff needs doing, the dependency tree will sort itself out without my interference. sigh, typical worst case windows (and actually non-sensical) Vs best case linux (what distro are you thinking of? one's i've used this year have horrific package management and incredibly slow updating). this kind of BS should be outlawed, people might actually start believing it. fact is installing/upgrading linux is much, much more involved than upgrading in windows. Even in the latest versions of mandrake and opensuse, installing and upgrading is a damn pain and takes ages for the tree to resolve. And that's when I don't have to go into command line and do it myself. Wow, you must be fairly new at linux then, or use a crap package management system. Yes I run my package management from command line - so what? GUIs are fun optional extras. I update the package list, I install package 'x'. Voila. On the odd occassion when there are blocked packages, it takes seconds to remove them and install. I specifically chose my distro because of the ease of use of it's package management system - this is a wonderful example of basing linux around a bad package management system which is only one part of it. EDIT: Which is, I realise now, you simply using a 'best case Windows' versus a 'worst case Linux'. Hypocrite. -J ----------------------------- "Oh, we're sorry, you had the 'NakedAmarrChicks' bit flagged in your account somehow." "Wait, why was there even a flag for that to begin with?" "..."

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2007.07.28 11:07:00 - [93] Edited by: CCP Explorer on 28/07/2007 11:09:26 Originally by: Kadesh Priestess Simple question. Will you compile eve against cedegalibs, or we'll have to subscribe to it and you'll just improve game compatibility? We will deliver the same binaries on all platforms (Windows, Linux, Mac OS X) and work on compatibility. TransGaming will then create special installers for Linux and Mac OS X as well as platform specific patches/updates. Don't know how the financial aspect or subscription details will be handled (but that will become clear when we release, not my department though). Originally by: Gord Ackfordham what are the chances of you guys helping out the wine team? We are committed to enhance our support for API wrappers through our work with TransGaming. Originally by: Kadesh Priestess But it's rather clear why ccp decided to work with them - it's much more easy to ask guys from transgaming to do sth than to do sth themselves in wine or wait when wine dev team will make suitable changes. Exactly, we needed somebody with expertise in this field that could provide the framework, do QA, create installers and patches, provide tech support and be contractually obligated to fix broken things within in a certain time frame. In addition TransGaming focuses on gaming so they fit the requirements nicely. Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games

Norwood Franskly	Posted - 2007.07.28 11:14:00 - [94] Thanks for the update, as some one who runs both Linux and OS X, glad to see CCP car enough about us non Windows users, which is more then some gaming companies do. While a native client would be great I'd happily use the proposed solution. Norwood
Pelf Matagraph	Posted - 2007.07.28 11:30:00 - [95] Originally by: Norwood Franskly Originally by: Andrue Originally by: Norwood Franskly Your arguement about package dependencies seems fairly weak to me, just put the onus on the user to maintain he's packages. why the censored should the user have to do any such thing? Maybe I've misunderstood your posting but ISTM that it's an example of exactly why Linux has never made it into the mainstream. Users want to use their computer not ** around with it. I don't have to 'manage my packages' when I'm using Windows. I can just install and play the game. That's what I like and that's what 95% of the computer users in the world want to do. Until/unless the majority of Linux supporters realise this they will never, ever get their precious OS out of the niche that it currently occupies. I'm not arguing anywhere that Linux should be mainstream, I have no idea what gave you that impression. Linux is not for everybody, thats the first thing I tell people who ask me to set up Linux for them. Linux takes time and effort to learn, its for people who know about computers and care enough to have the control to ** around with their computer. If you want things to "just work" (TM) stick with Windows, just don't ask me to fix your computer when things go wrong. Asking a Linux user to install package X is a basic, basic operation if you don't know how to install a package and you can't be bothered to learn then Linux is not the operating system for you. I also find fault with you saying you don't need to 'manage packages' in windows. Did you install Direct X, Did you install\upgrade Video drivers how bout all those windows updates and service packs you installed. Do you use Acrobat reader did it pop up with an update message, how bout realplayer or quicktime, what about Java? What your doing when this happens is analogous to package management in the Linux world. In my opinion Package management is 'the thing' that sets Linux miles ahead of Windows. It provides a single easy way to install, remove or update software, drivers and applications and manage dependencies. Imagine if you could patch all the apps running on your windows system with 1 command, well you can with Linux. Desktop Linux users may be a niche but it's a damn important one, we are technically proficient geeks (and I say that with a great deal of affection), exactly the sort of people who are prepared to shell out a monthly fee to play something like Eve. Actually, I'd differ in opinion on a niggling little point. The greatest advantage to Linux (or any UNIX variant) is the lack of a REGISTRY!! -- I don't post on my main. The reason is simple- to remain obscure. EVE as a society is a rough place, and I like being anonymous. I'm not afraid. I'm just prudent.
Vex Seraphim Gallente Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.28 12:14:00 - [96] Edited by: Vex Seraphim on 28/07/2007 12:15:15 Originally by: CCP Explorer EVE runs under API wrappers such as Cedega, Cider, Wine, Crossover and CodeWeavers, and probably in some emulations environments such as Parallels (v3). Emphasis on runs, but the additional layer impairs the performance enough to make it nearly useless for most heavy tasks (e.g. fleet fights, missions.) On my box at least, the fps under linux/cedega is about half of what i get under windows; and we all know how fps in eve drops during fleet fights. It's sad that ccp are able to rewrite the rendering portion of the engine to modernize graphics(dx10) but not to make it easier to port eve to other operation systems -and- modernize graphics at the same time (opengl2). p.s.: of course i realize that porting it to linux is more than just rewriting the rendering portion, but that would be a big step forward.
Kadesh Priestess	Posted - 2007.07.28 15:27:00 - [97] Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 28/07/2007 15:29:27 Originally by: CCP Explorer Exactly, we needed somebody with expertise in this field that could provide the framework, do QA, create installers and patches, provide tech support and be contractually obligated to fix broken things within in a certain time frame. In addition TransGaming focuses on gaming so they fit the requirements nicely. While it's true that money mean responsibility, i'd say that general quality of wine is better. It's a pity that you hadn't considered (or preferred responsibility to potential) paying team of devs who'll write installers based on wine, since it's development advances much faster and in near future it should overcome cedega in any aspect imo. And, yeah, opengl client would be the best decision for me (just take a look at ut/q series)... native for all platforms, including my one. Hope someday we'll see it :)
prsr Gallente JuBa Corp	Posted - 2007.07.28 21:33:00 - [98] Edited by: prsr on 28/07/2007 21:36:59 Although a native eve client would be nice I don't see it becoming necessary as long emulators are able to run it reasonably. The os war comments are funny, especially when the common task of getting .net and the windows installer stuff upgraded is labelled "worst-case" for the non-existent software version management tool in windows. I'll spare you real worst cases in dealing with windows. About enterprise support, RH is nice if you like running RH, but I can get enterprise support on Debian systems via IBM and HP [edit: forgot one, Dell) as well so we can joyfully burn the "no-enterprise-support" strawman together with the "all-software-on-linux-needs-to-be-open-source" and "all-software-on-linux-needs-to-be-free" strawmen. These discussions are a tad out of date anyway, it's like dealing with the FUD around linux from 5 years ago. -- .sig apathy ftw
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2007.07.30 02:12:00 - [99] Originally by: CCP Explorer We are planning to officially support Tiger, Leopard, Ubuntu and openSUSE. Hallefraggingluja!!!! Praise the Lord!
Gyrn Fzirth Minmatar Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.07.30 04:07:00 - [100] Edited by: Gyrn Fzirth on 30/07/2007 04:14:00 Originally by: prsr Edited by: prsr on 28/07/2007 21:36:59 Although a native eve client would be nice I don't see it becoming necessary as long emulators are able to run it reasonably. The os war comments are funny, especially when the common task of getting .net and the windows installer stuff upgraded is labelled "worst-case" for the non-existent software version management tool in windows. I'll spare you real worst cases in dealing with windows. About enterprise support, RH is nice if you like running RH, but I can get enterprise support on Debian systems via IBM and HP [edit: forgot one, Dell) as well so we can joyfully burn the "no-enterprise-support" strawman together with the "all-software-on-linux-needs-to-be-open-source" and "all-software-on-linux-needs-to-be-free" strawmen. <inigoMontoya>I dunna thinka that means what you thinka that means</inigoMontoya> I know you want to sound all buzzwordy and smart, but there are no strawman arguments here :/ The arguments are incorrect (see my previous comments on absolutes and the fanboi idiots that spout them) but they are arguments directly posed by opposing parties as opposed to arguments that are easily refuted put forth by the party that wishes to refute them. From wikipedia: "A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent. " straw man example argument: me: "the sky can be blue or green" linuxbigot: "he's saying that the sky is green. All we need to do is look up to see that it is blue!" with that out of the way, you're correct - there's more than one enterprise support provider for linux. Good luck getting them to support your build on other than dell/hp/ibm hardware (as appropriate) though. As far as I know, RH is still the only one that'll support enterprise linux on multiple platforms. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't try to sound all buzzwordy. Originally by: prsr These discussions are a tad out of date anyway, it's like dealing with the FUD around linux from 5 years ago. We've been talking about very recent OSes. Dapper Drake is literally one year one month old. Vista is less than that by 7 months. All of MY arguments are current as of the end of the first quarter THIS YEAR. ========== CELES KB: http://www.celeskills.com
Bluestealth Minmatar BlueLabs	Posted - 2007.07.30 04:28:00 - [101] Originally by: Gyrn Fzirth Loads of trolling.... Calm the **** down and go outside please!
Gyrn Fzirth Minmatar Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.07.30 04:40:00 - [102] Edited by: Gyrn Fzirth on 30/07/2007 04:42:35 Originally by: Bluestealth Originally by: Gyrn Fzirth Loads of trolling.... Calm the **** down and go outside please! grrr how is replying to his arguments in the way I did trolling? He misunderstood one of the basic premises of his entire post. ========== CELES KB: http://www.celeskills.com
Bluestealth Minmatar BlueLabs	Posted - 2007.07.30 05:49:00 - [103] Originally by: Gyrn Fzirth Edited by: Gyrn Fzirth on 30/07/2007 04:42:35 Originally by: Bluestealth Originally by: Gyrn Fzirth Loads of trolling.... Calm the ** down and go outside please! grrr how is replying to his arguments in the way I did trolling? He misunderstood one of the basic premises of his entire post. Most if not all of your posts in this thread were purposely inflammatory, thus I am saying you are trolling. Not to say others were not trolling too, but you got on my nerves. Perhaps you should stick to your arguments and not get into the drama. BTW everyone should know by now that they should not to get into these discussions and moderators should know to lock them. The DEV posts and clarifying questions were ALL that were required. There was no reason to get into another ***** OS debate. Its been done to death like ten million times. There is no one size fit all solution. There are financial considerations to any decision. People will make decisions based on what they are experienced in, or what works for them. Every platform doesn't do everything best. Etc... ad naseum.
MonwrathDisortium D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.07.30 06:21:00 - [104] I could quite honestly care less about the ins and outs of which OS is better, I run windows for eve and eve only. For every other thing I do I use unbuntu. I don't care if someone else likes gentoo or bsd more, I would just like to be able to play my game on my favorite os. I have tried to play eve under wine and cedega and both are a joke, anything bigger than a 5v5 fight and it looks like a slideshow. The day I get an eve client that will run under unbuntu I will remove windows from my computer and live happily ever after.
VicturusTeSaluto	Posted - 2007.07.30 07:11:00 - [105] Originally by: Lady Natacha Not until after CCP stops using proprietary MS DirectX graphics technology, or DirectX for *NIX appears. This is unlikely to ever happen, so emulators like Cedega are going to probably be the only solution for a long time. Cedega is NOT an emulator.
VicturusTeSaluto	Posted - 2007.07.30 07:16:00 - [106] Originally by: DJ P Edited by: DJ P on 26/07/2007 10:18:47 Since they actualy rewrite the client and they will have to support 2 versions (DX10 and other, probably DX9), I don't see why not do it on OpenGL and DX10. The OpenGL version will run under XP/OSX/nix. DX10 under Vista and with library hacking XP :) After all the upcoming OpenGL version if not far superior, is the same as the DX10. And don't forget the market. Linux/Mac market is virgin atm with only a couple of native MMORPGs none compared to EVE. (WoW is a joke). What? The first MMORPG's (MUDs) were used with nix.
J Ripper Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.30 08:55:00 - [107] Thanks CCP! my sig: --- Jon Johansen ---
rig0r 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.07.30 10:21:00 - [108] Edited by: rig0r on 30/07/2007 10:22:33 Originally by: Bluestealth Originally by: Gyrn Fzirth Loads of trolling.... Calm the **** down and go outside please! Just ignore him, I had him go mental before in some EVE chatchannel before when I said I used linux Don't know where his frustration is coming from, and don't care tbh. The people with some knowledge of linux can easily see he does not have any. Oh and thanks for the support CCP
Baalthemon Gallente Peregrine ammo and arms Pax Familia	Posted - 2007.08.01 19:58:00 - [109] Wow, jumped to the thread and saw a war. OS's are tools, each has pro's and con's. I run Linux and OS X, it works for me and lets me do what I want. If Microsoft works for people, then it's the right choice. I'm not a huge fan of Cedega but the reality is: if it works, I'll use it. If it runs EVE on my laptop running Ubuntu I'll give it a shot. Right now EVE is running on my Mac Pro without too many hassles and I can wait for development with TransGamining to get it on the laptop. --------------------- "There's what we know, what we don't know, and what they don't know we know, um, and..." Running EVE Online via Parallels.

Eldo Davip Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.08.06 13:46:00 - [110] I've moved this thread here so we have fewwer "OSX/Linux" threads. See CCP's response linked in the OP. ___ Questions/Complaints/Opinions/Bree \| Rules


CCP Lingorm	Posted - 2007.08.08 16:24:00 - [111] Edited by: CCP Lingorm on 08/08/2007 16:25:01 Just a clarification on the 'paying extra' for EVE on Cedega. You will pay the same price for EVE on Linux/Mac as you pay for EVE on Windows. Same Monthly subscription fees. The Cedega/Cider builds that back the EVE release will be locked to those products. Repeat. You will only be paying the same monthly fee for EVE on the new platforms. No extra fees will be charged for running on these platform. CCP Lingorm CCP Quality Assurance QA Engineering Team Leader

Solbright altaltalt Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.08.08 17:28:00 - [112] Originally by: CCP Lingorm No extra fees will be charged for running on these platform. Way cool! /me does a dance. Including Linux is effectively one up on Blizzard. :)
Gord Ackfordham Fenscore Enterprises United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.08.09 10:57:00 - [113] Originally by: CCP Lingorm Edited by: CCP Lingorm on 08/08/2007 16:25:01 Just a clarification on the 'paying extra' for EVE on Cedega. You will pay the same price for EVE on Linux/Mac as you pay for EVE on Windows. Same Monthly subscription fees. The Cedega/Cider builds that back the EVE release will be locked to those products. Repeat. You will only be paying the same monthly fee for EVE on the new platforms. No extra fees will be charged for running on these platform. okay, good to know... any chance on getting an ETA? --- cheers, gordo

CCP Lingorm	Posted - 2007.08.09 11:29:00 - [114] Expect Official Notification with timelines Soon(tm) and I mean it. We are sorting out the final times and should be able to make them public soon. CCP Lingorm CCP Quality Assurance QA Engineering Team Leader

Gord Ackfordham Fenscore Enterprises United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.08.09 15:20:00 - [115] cool... what kind of performance buff are we expected to get from this bundled client, if any? --- cheers, gordo
Tonto Auri	Posted - 2007.08.09 16:18:00 - [116] Originally by: CCP Lingorm Repeat. You will only be paying the same monthly fee for EVE on the new platforms. No extra fees will be charged for running on these platform. It not change anything in general. Wrappers -> Overhead -> Drop in perfomance. I'll wait when You change Your mind and release native linux client than use such crap. I just not have useless $5,000 to spend it to new computer to get appropriate perfomance under all that wrappers. -- Thanks CCP for cu<end of sig>
jansaell Gallente Phoenix Industries	Posted - 2007.08.09 17:39:00 - [117] I have no problems with running the client in Cedega / wine. Well i did not have it untill last patch when it totally broke. I tried both the cedega version and the wine way and found that both works very well without any problems (untill last pathc then). And the preformance if very good. No problem there and i only have a normal Laptip with a nvidia card. The reason for selecting the wine version what that i could NOT get the cedega version to handle 2 versions of the client at the same time. So please developers, when you test the new version please test that you can run 2 nstanses of the client at the same time as a lot of us players are using mupliple accounts. Looking forward to the linux client.
Gord Ackfordham Fenscore Enterprises United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.08.09 19:30:00 - [118] Edited by: Gord Ackfordham on 09/08/2007 19:29:56 snip and supposedly it did edit it. --- cheers, gordo
Solbright altaltalt Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.08.10 09:44:00 - [119] Originally by: Tonto Auri [It not change anything in general. Wrappers -> Overhead -> Drop in perfomance. Getting worked up over nothing imho. Just because you know there is an extra layer compared to the windoze release. There is no shortage of layers in the game already, one more isn't having a significant impact. When the diff in performance is meaningful I might start agreeing with you. But, as it stands, Eve is so slow already that the extra overhead is not worth making a fuss over.
Tonto Auri	Posted - 2007.08.11 00:44:00 - [120] Originally by: Solbright altaltalt Eve is so slow already that the extra overhead is not worth making a fuss over. Of course, until You not start second client. -- Thanks CCP for cu<end of sig>

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