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@ DEVS: When can we expect a native linux client?

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 7 post(s)
Asestorian Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.07.26 11:36:00 - [31] I'm saving this thread so it can be used as a reply to the next person who asks about mac/linux clients \o/ --- ---
Neena Valdi Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.26 11:41:00 - [32] Just forget it and use normal OS (Windows). It's unreal to port EVE to Linux.
Gyrn Fzirth Minmatar Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.07.26 12:27:00 - [33] Edited by: Gyrn Fzirth on 26/07/2007 12:39:10 are you linux advocates totally blind? They can barely support a client just for windows. Imagine slapping on opengl and trying to code their client to support the literally 300 different linux distributions - not all of them have the same basic filesystem architecture, configurations etc. There's no enterprise support outside of companies like RedHat (first person to say "linux community" gets a ) to support such a coding effort by a commercial company. Does EVERYone running linux want RedHat? If you want, go play around with a hacked together "unix-like" operating system go ahead. Have fun! Learn lots! I prefer real unix - BSD or Solaris and there are versions of both available free - over linux, but thats just me. As far as you monkies talking about MS backends being crap, grow up and pull yer head out. Most of the biggest and most well known companies use a mix for a reason. Some things lend themselves to MS backends more than unix and vice versa. Heh just thought of a PERFECT example someone mentioned earlier in this thread: Originally by: Silvana Starbreeze I`m using Cedega to run EvE on Linux. Works <snip> for example it usually crashes when i run VMWare and EvE at the same time <snip> VMWare ESX is a linux operating system "hypervisor" supporting multiple virtual machines close to the hardware. Their enterprise management solution - Virtual Center - the one that allows companies to manage dozens or hundreds of ESX servers across the globe? Yup, only runs on Windows and requires Active Directory. In other words VMWare, one of the most prominently touted linux loyalists will only support Windows environments for enterprise management. Want to know why? Windows is better at enterprise authentication/authorization than all the rest, despite what your wannabe mcse instructors may have said. ========== CELES KB: http://www.celeskills.com
SeigneurDesMysteres Caldari Prophets Of a Damned Universe	Posted - 2007.07.26 13:01:00 - [34] Originally by: Gyrn Fzirth Edited by: Gyrn Fzirth on 26/07/2007 12:39:10 are you linux advocates totally blind? They can barely support a client just for windows. Imagine slapping on opengl and trying to code their client to support the literally 300 different linux distributions - not all of them have the same basic filesystem architecture, configurations etc. There's no enterprise support outside of companies like RedHat (first person to say "linux community" gets a ) to support such a coding effort by a commercial company. Does EVERYone running linux want RedHat? If you want, go play around with a hacked together "unix-like" operating system go ahead. Have fun! Learn lots! I prefer real unix - BSD or Solaris and there are versions of both available free - over linux, but thats just me. As far as you monkies talking about MS backends being crap, grow up and pull yer head out. Most of the biggest and most well known companies use a mix for a reason. Some things lend themselves to MS backends more than unix and vice versa. Heh just thought of a PERFECT example someone mentioned earlier in this thread: Originally by: Silvana Starbreeze I`m using Cedega to run EvE on Linux. Works <snip> for example it usually crashes when i run VMWare and EvE at the same time <snip> VMWare ESX is a linux operating system "hypervisor" supporting multiple virtual machines close to the hardware. Their enterprise management solution - Virtual Center - the one that allows companies to manage dozens or hundreds of ESX servers across the globe? Yup, only runs on Windows and requires Active Directory. In other words VMWare, one of the most prominently touted linux loyalists will only support Windows environments for enterprise management. Want to know why? Windows is better at enterprise authentication/authorization than all the rest, despite what your wannabe mcse instructors may have said. Can i have your babies?
Leviaxxan Gallente The Black Ops	Posted - 2007.07.26 13:03:00 - [35] Erlendur could you care to comment on this article then please. http://eve.mondespersistants.com/?article=477 It's in reference to the section 2/3 of the way down the page about a pushing out of a linux/mac client in August. I don't know how reliable of official that information may be but in light of your recent comment I will take it that it's not.
Borasao	Posted - 2007.07.26 13:33:00 - [36] Plus... unless CCP wants to release the source for the client (thus letting us see all the nice ways we can exploit and modify the client ourselves to exploit, build our own tools to manipulate things like training and things... plus it will make writing macros really easy since you can tie in to any functionality... the sky is the limit as to what you could do with that!). So... to avoid that they'll probably want to deliver binary only and so they'd have to only use packages with LGPL licenses or rewrite anything/everything with a GPL license to prevent being forced to deliver the source. That takes lots of time and money (to pay the developers, QA, etc.) as well as supporting all of that. Of course, delivering binaries only is a nightmare because they'd have to statically link everything to avoid all the troubles with those who don't have the right packages (or versions of the packages) installed... and statically linking everything sucks a big one because any security patches released for any LGPL library they use will make them evaluate whether or not to recompile (hopefully only a recompile) the client and repush it out to everyone. Plus, as others have said, they'd probably have to rewrite large parts of the client as it is to either replicate Microsoft's API/functionality or to move it to a cross-platform functionality suite. Hopefully, that will still be optimized. You really do not want to have to support two client code bases... it isn't double the cost... it's more than double the cost. After all that... how many players would be using a Linux client? But wait... how could they subsidize all that extra cost? Ideally, they'd have one source base for it all and then they'd be near to what they have now (you still have to test on Windows, Linux, and OSX so even a common code base has more cost associated with it... you're not just testing on Windows anymore) plus the support for Linux and OSX in addition to the Windows now... you have to have folks knowledgable in those OSs so they'd probably have to hire a few people (I highly doubt that the dev/QA team at CCP has much idle time with all the bugs in the game... or maybe they do and that's why we have them ) So... how much of a hike in subscription costs would you be willing to soak to support those other OSs (even if you don't use those other ones)? As far as complaints over MSSQL, I'm guessing folks would want to run them to run MySQL
Gord Ackfordham Fenscore Enterprises United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.07.26 13:55:00 - [37] Originally by: Leviaxxan Erlendur could you care to comment on this article then please. http://eve.mondespersistants.com/?article=477 It's in reference to the section 2/3 of the way down the page about a pushing out of a linux/mac client in August. I don't know how reliable of official that information may be but in light of your recent comment I will take it that it's not. and what about this article too? Quote: An EVE Online Mac/Linux native client will be released in August later this year. Penguins in SPAAAAAAACE! http://razorwire.warcry.com/news/view/72510-World-of-Darkness-Online-could-be-here-in-4-or-5-years --- cheers, gordo
gfldex Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.26 14:04:00 - [38] Originally by: Andrue In conclusion:Linux is a great OS but it ain't for everyone In conclusion: EVE is a great game but it ain't for everyone :) It would fit, won't it? The whole problem is that experience is driving decision. If the management of a company don't got anybody who used Linux successfully in a project you will have a hard time to sell them a Linux involving idea. At the other hand you need ppl that are able to code for that platform and like to do it. The best bet you can do would be the web cell. I doubt you will find many ppl in CCP HQ who actually use Linux at home outside of that small realm. All that bull**** about money here and compatibility problems there is just tinfoil hattery. There are so many commercial project and products out their that run just fine below /opt . It is not that hard to do if you got the ppl who know how. -- There are countless games in the world. There are at least as many ppl that dont like one or more rules of said games. That never stopped smart game designers from creating good games.
Szprinkoth Sponsz Chaos Reborn	Posted - 2007.07.26 14:11:00 - [39] World of Warcraft runs nativley on Mac OSX and I see no reason why EVE shouldn't. Do the canary spin!
Leviaxxan Gallente The Black Ops	Posted - 2007.07.26 14:27:00 - [40] I'd guess 95%+ of the game code will not machine specific but more to do with how the game works. And that is where most of the changes will be made. The only parts that are specific are to do with memory managment, graphics, user input and network. And all those should be abstracted out into their own internal APIs. The game loop itself should also be abstracted out. Moving to linux/osx is then just a case of porting your game loop and writing new APIs for the 4 areas mentioned above. It's not a simple job but it's certainly possible. A lot game studios are starting to move games to osx as it Macs gain popularity especially amongst the younger generation who are traditionally the heavy game players. CCP won't do it unless it is commercially viable, Crossover is too slow to run Eve ATM, my MacBook really struggles with it and Parralels despite adding some basic DX8.1 support it does not run EVE at all well, and neither will be a good marketing tool at the moment. I can tell you one thing somebody does need to fix, and thats the really poor handling of logged in members on this forum, it logs me out all over the place it's shocking!!
Scorpyn Caldari Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.07.26 14:34:00 - [41] Originally by: CCP Explorer We have no plans to release a native client for Linux or Mac OS X. EVE runs under API wrappers such as Cedega, Cider, Wine, Crossover and CodeWeavers, and probably in some emulations environments such as Parallels (v3). We are committed to enhance our support for API wrappers. Odd... did you have those plans at some point and changed you mind, or did the ones that reported those plans simply misunderstand something that someone from CCP said? 2007-07-19 20:26
Liu Kaskakka PAK	Posted - 2007.07.26 14:36:00 - [42] Originally by: Szprinkoth Sponsz World of Warcraft runs nativley on Mac OSX and I see no reason why EVE shouldn't. Coz Eve > WoW King Liu is RIGHT!!
Apply HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2007.07.26 14:41:00 - [43] A long long time ago (2-3 years) CCP asked us if we want a Unix based client. Community said the usual: fix bugs first. This is the story of the Linux client.
Scorpyn Caldari Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.07.26 14:50:00 - [44] Originally by: Apply A long long time ago (2-3 years) CCP asked us if we want a Unix based client. Community said the usual: fix bugs first. This is the story of the Linux client. Linux usage and userfriendliness has increased a lot since then, so my opinion on the matter has changed. However, if I have to choose, I still think that fixing bugs is more important than a native linux client. Also, if the dev(s) porting it isn't familiar with OpenGL, linux etc then there isn't much point in even trying. 2007-07-19 20:26
Norwood Franskly	Posted - 2007.07.26 14:52:00 - [45] Originally by: Borasao Plus... unless CCP wants to release the source for the client (thus letting us see all the nice ways we can exploit and modify the client ourselves to exploit, build our own tools to manipulate things like training and things... plus it will make writing macros really easy since you can tie in to any functionality... the sky is the limit as to what you could do with that!). So... to avoid that they'll probably want to deliver binary only and so they'd have to only use packages with LGPL licenses or rewrite anything/everything with a GPL license to prevent being forced to deliver the source. That takes lots of time and money (to pay the developers, QA, etc.) as well as supporting all of that. There's nothing wrong with releasing a binary only client, plenty of apps do this Unreal Tournement, Quake III etc etc. I don't think anyones expecting CCP to open source the eve client, nor do they need to to get it to interoperate with Linux Originally by: Borasao Of course, delivering binaries only is a nightmare because they'd have to statically link everything to avoid all the troubles with those who don't have the right packages (or versions of the packages) installed... and statically linking everything sucks a big one because any security patches released for any LGPL library they use will make them evaluate whether or not to recompile (hopefully only a recompile) the client and repush it out to everyone. You seem to misunderstand the way the LGPL works as well. There's nothing to stop them dynamically linking a binary to a LGPL'd library (see following link for a good summary of developer responsibility and the LGPL http://teem.sourceforge.net/lgpl.html). Your arguement about package dependencies seems fairly weak to me, just put the onus on the user to maintain he's packages. Quote: Plus, as others have said, they'd probably have to rewrite large parts of the client as it is to either replicate Microsoft's API/functionality or to move it to a cross-platform functionality suite. Hopefully, that will still be optimized. You really do not want to have to support two client code bases... it isn't double the cost... it's more than double the cost. Yet this is exactly what CCP are doing they are allready forking the client code into DX10 and DX9.
Asestorian Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.07.26 14:57:00 - [46] Originally by: Szprinkoth Sponsz World of Warcraft runs nativley on Mac OSX and I see no reason why EVE shouldn't. Probably because WoW was coded from the start to be able to run on Mac OSX, whereas EVE was not. If it was just that easy, CCP would have already done it, but clearly it's not just that easy. I imagine it has something to do with Direct X, which just so happens to be a Windows specific thing. --- ---
Ryan Scouse'UK	Posted - 2007.07.26 15:04:00 - [47] Originally by: CCP Explorer We have no plans to release a native client for Linux or Mac OS X. EVE runs under API wrappers such as Cedega, Cider, Wine, Crossover and CodeWeavers, and probably in some emulations environments such as Parallels (v3). We are committed to enhance our support for API wrappers. Thats a very good NO!! answer luv it =)
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.26 15:12:00 - [48] Originally by: Asestorian I imagine it has something to do with Direct X, which just so happens to be a Windows specific thing. Yup. MS proprietry. There are other frameworks that could be used, such as OpenGL (which I think WoW uses for cross platformness) or SDL (which NWN uses). Both just use architecture-specific libraries, and the same calls to those libraries from the app (from what I've read, never done any programming with either). A bit like Java - every machine has a specific virtual machine that won't run on other machines, but the app itself will run on any virtual machine what-so-ever.
Loyal Servant Caldari Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.07.26 15:45:00 - [49] only real game developers create portable code. CCP isn't it.
Evod AirHawk Alliance Insomnia.	Posted - 2007.07.26 15:54:00 - [50] So how goes the talks with TransGaming that have been going on "quite some time". I too think that a client capable of running on Intel based OS X machines "would be good for the Mac" (All quotes from Magnus Bergsson) http://www.macworld.com/news/2007/03/09/eve/index.php Also:http://www.gamersinfo.net/index.php?art/id:1598 (no quotes but they claim to have been told about 3 weeks on a Linux port, article is dated March 7, 2007) Is this stuff you guys just trot out at GDCs to try and impress people that will never check to see if you actually do anything. One year its "EVE on Windows Mobile" the next its EVE on OS X", I assume at the next GDC you will tell the press that you are working on an iPhone port as well. I truly enjoy this game, but I'm getting pretty tired of being fed stories that just aren't the case. ____________________
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.07.26 16:09:00 - [51] Originally by: Allen Ramses Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK. Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless. Too true. :) IMHO: Raven < CNR < Drake < Dominix Raven has an awful tank and mediocre dps. CNR is mostly epeen. It's DPS even with drones and good drone skills still falls way short of the DPS of the Dominix. Drake costs way less than either the Raven or the CNR, has better dps, especially vs. small ships, costs less, has a better tank. Dominix costs more than a drake, but it's dps (506 raw) smokes anything else and is a pretty ridiculous tank. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Support fixing the EVE UI
Loyal Servant Caldari Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.07.26 17:36:00 - [52] Originally by: Evod Edited by: Evod on 26/07/2007 15:54:50 So how goes the talks with TransGaming that have been going on "quite some time". I too think that a client capable of running on Intel based OS X machines "would be good for the Mac" (All quotes from Magnus Bergsson) http://www.macworld.com/news/2007/03/09/eve/index.php Also: http://www.gamersinfo.net/index.php?art/id:1598 (no quotes but they claim to have been told about 3 weeks on a Linux port, article is dated March 7, 2007) Is this stuff you guys just trot out at GDCs to try and impress people that will never check to see if you actually do anything. One year its "EVE on Windows Mobile" the next its EVE on OS X", I assume at the next GDC you will tell the press that you are working on an iPhone port as well. I truly enjoy this game, but I'm getting pretty tired of being fed stories that just aren't the case. RTFA! FTA: "The company is working with Cider developer TransGaming Technologies." These guys make API emulators. Native port, this is not... it's Cedega, etc. (Eve does work with cedega and wine, btw)
Evod AirHawk Alliance Insomnia.	Posted - 2007.07.26 17:43:00 - [53] Originally by: Loyal Servant Originally by: Evod Edited by: Evod on 26/07/2007 15:54:50 So how goes the talks with TransGaming that have been going on "quite some time". I too think that a client capable of running on Intel based OS X machines "would be good for the Mac" (All quotes from Magnus Bergsson) http://www.macworld.com/news/2007/03/09/eve/index.php Also: http://www.gamersinfo.net/index.php?art/id:1598 (no quotes but they claim to have been told about 3 weeks on a Linux port, article is dated March 7, 2007) Is this stuff you guys just trot out at GDCs to try and impress people that will never check to see if you actually do anything. One year its "EVE on Windows Mobile" the next its EVE on OS X", I assume at the next GDC you will tell the press that you are working on an iPhone port as well. I truly enjoy this game, but I'm getting pretty tired of being fed stories that just aren't the case. RTFA! FTA: "The company is working with Cider developer TransGaming Technologies." These guys make API emulators. Native port, this is not... it's Cedega, etc. (Eve does work with cedega and wine, btw) RTFP! FTP So how goes the talks with TransGaming that have been going on "quite some time". :p ____________________
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.26 18:04:00 - [54] Since they were doing a new engine they could have been smart, and re-made it in OpenGL 3 that has all DX10 capabilities and runs both on win XP, Vista, Linux, Mac OS etc... the rest of the client is very simple. Better graphics with much greater portability, and even so developers keep making same mistakes. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Tractormech Caldari Axe Gang	Posted - 2007.07.26 18:15:00 - [55] They have more pressing things to work on. I am glad they are not wasting their time doing something like this. Lets get the game working well on Windows first, then we can worry about the rest.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.26 18:24:00 - [56] Originally by: Tractormech They have more pressing things to work on. I am glad they are not wasting their time doing something like this. Lets get the game working well on Windows first, then we can worry about the rest. This is the type of stuff you have only one moment to do, when you make the engine. If you don't do now, you will never be able to do it. I personally know 2 people that don play eve for the sole reason that they won buy windows to play a single game, no matter how good it is. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.07.26 18:30:00 - [57] Originally by: Norwood Franskly Your arguement about package dependencies seems fairly weak to me, just put the onus on the user to maintain he's packages. why the censored should the user have to do any such thing? Maybe I've misunderstood your posting but ISTM that it's an example of exactly why Linux has never made it into the mainstream. Users want to use their computer not ** around with it. I don't have to 'manage my packages' when I'm using Windows. I can just install and play the game. That's what I like and that's what 95% of the computer users in the world want to do. Until/unless the majority of Linux supporters realise this they will never, ever get their precious OS out of the niche that it currently occupies. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] This is not a signature**
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.07.26 18:37:00 - [58] Edited by: Andrue on 26/07/2007 18:38:58 Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Tractormech They have more pressing things to work on. I am glad they are not wasting their time doing something like this. Lets get the game working well on Windows first, then we can worry about the rest. This is the type of stuff you have only one moment to do, when you make the engine. If you don't do now, you will never be able to do it. That's very true but it's also true that it still doesn't come for free. Designing and implementing portable code from the start is easier than trying to port an existing code base but it is still a lot harder than just coding for one platform. When all is said and done what matters is market penetration. There are way more Windows installations in CCP's market space than Linux users. If we were talking a few %ge points more then fair enough but we're not. There are probably ten times as many Windows users as Linux users especially if you include the reluctant ones running on what they consider their 'silly, second OS'. Development on the Linux client should therefore be budgeted at 10% or less of what they spend on the Windows client which makes it impossible. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] *This is not* a signature**
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.26 18:38:00 - [59] Originally by: Gyrn Fzirth There's no enterprise support outside of companies like RedHat (first person to say "linux community" gets a ) to support such a coding effort by a commercial company. Does EVERYone running linux want RedHat? You really need to do more research. Redhat is far from the only company doing enterprise support for Linux, it isn't even the biggest. <-----------> Factional Warfare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
Free Hat	Posted - 2007.07.26 18:42:00 - [60] wow wow wow, so many clueless newbies in this thread. 1) World of Warcraft uses the OpenGL graphics API, which is cross-platform and supported by Mac, Linux and Windows. This is the same API that is used by id Software for their engines (and hence can run on multiple platforms) and other companies who wish to develop cross-platform games. However, the OpenGL API usually lags behind DirectX when it comes to getting the brand spanking new features, as chances are ratified by a review board. EVE, and pretty much every single game designed only to run on Windows uses Direct3D for graphics. This can be emulated on other systems, but as it is native to Windows there won't be any official support for Mac and Linux versions, expecially with Microsoft pushing DX10 as Vista only. Direct3D is extremely well supported by both major graphics card vendors (ATI and nVidia), where-as ATI has a history of absolute **** OpenGL drivers (something which hopefully will be fixed soon). Finally, there are a hell of a lot more resources and programs that work with Direct3D that don't work with OpenGL, and if the company cannot afford the time or resources to develop their own then this becomes a very important point. 2) The current graphics engine is very old, and was built at a time when hardware support for OpenGL was virtually non-existant. Hence, D3D was the way to go. 3) The old graphics engine will still be supported and updated when the new one comes along (because not everyone has shiny graphics cards), and it is a hell of a lot easier to support 2 versions of the same API than it is to develop two completely different APIs (and you really can't get much more different than OpenGL and Direct3D). 4) The EVE material/shader files are all built around Direct3D. Changing this over to OGL would be a massive undertaking that would either require the devs making a 100% perfect convertor and then updating their entire toolchain or recombining the assets from scratch, something that no serious developer would ever do. 5) What operating system is used on the server has absolutely nothing to do with what operating system(s) the client is running on, so please STFU about that. 6) The "new version" of OpenGL won't be out for months and months and months. And what will be the difference? A slightly different way of creating objects. Please don't preach OpenGL at me - I use it exclusively for all my work and love it to bits, but I know what's coming. It takes ******* ages for any major new features to be added to OpenGL - what ever happened to the SuperBuffers spec? :P 7) CCP's Client Programming Team has been built around knowledge of the APIs the client uses. Changing over to a different API would require not only a massive code rewrite (something that never turns out well in the industry) but also a massive investment with staff retraining, and then you lose the years of experience gained from having a stable platform to develop, test and tweak. If CCP were a brand new company and decided they wanted to make EVE today, then cross-platform support with OpenGL would be a very attractive option. However, CCP is an estabilished compary, with one game already launched and being maintained with their existing technology and another game currently being built on top of it, and if anyone in the company things it should be a good idea to throw-out their client and write it from scratch then they need to be shot, fired, or both. Linux and Mac users are currently a (very) vocal minority when it comes to gaming platforms. CCP have stated that they are commited to supporting the various Windows emulation efforts for Mac and Linux, and you should praise them for this as it's a damn sight more than most MMO companies would do for their playerbase.

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