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Freaky Bare Blueprint Haus Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 11:38:00 - [181] Originally by: Tearavygh Quillam Originally by: Neena Valdi Originally by: 0lawy Really? Complaining about lag when initiating a blob warfare in the current state of Eve is akin to spoiled toddler whining about getting wet when trying to sunbathe in thunderstorm. Just dont bring blob.Simple.There are other methods and strategies to fight with, not only the time honored "i got bigga blob-I WIN!" strategy. It won't happen. Due to people nature. Razor won't tell their allies to go home neither we will do it. Im just impressed how Razor managed to gather up alliances from half of 0.0: Tenal, Tribute, Geminate, Vale of the Silent, Drone regions, what else? Why are you so impressed? I'm new to RZR, but RZR goes some decent time ago with MM and Pure., which is 2 regions alone. Rule are friends and so are Vae Victis, No Quarter, CO2 who live amongst us and are glad to lend a hand. I must have forgotten Hydra, but where's Pure. there's Hydra, lol. Why did RK/SMASH respond? I guess you know that answer I can assure you many many more would be involved if not for the server problems. This could be an epic fight. BTW while HYDRA is friendly to PURE that is not why we are trying to help. Razor and MM never gave up and earned immense respect for that. I would happily -and I keep trying- lose a dozen ships to work with all these alliances to take back the North.
Velios M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.07.30 12:13:00 - [182] We have all been saying this for years now. The last major alliance I was in fell mainly because of the fact that the servers could not handle what was thrown at it and we lost pretty much everything we had spent a year working towards in a couple of weeks as the server fell over time and time again. I don't know what the answer is, and I wonder if CCP do either or surely they would have addressed it by now. POS warfare by it's very nature requires a large build up of forces on either side when claiming important 0.0 systems where two large alliances / coalition of alliances are involved, something needs to be done to make these encounters playable as intended or they simply need to change the game to match server capabilities. But I'm sure that game would be a very different one to the one we are currently trying to play. I love the vision of EVE, and the huge possibilities it offers that are in my humble opinion more substantial and rewarding than any other game currently on the market. Please CCP, look into ways to make the game experience deliver what it promises on paper above all other concerns! M.Corp Capital Blueprint Facility
Fred0 Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 12:58:00 - [183] Originally by: Velios Please CCP, look into ways to make the game experience deliver what it promises on paper above all other concerns! Aye, please do this CCP. Halt all other things and sort this out.
Zak Kingsman A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.07.30 13:42:00 - [184] They need to come up with a way to split up the blob. Say poses in systems adjacent to an OP also contribute to sov, make it so there is a limited time frame between the time the first POS contributing to sov goes down and till the time you cannot damage the other posses, say an hour or so. Limit the number of poses that can contribute to sov and for any more poses so that you HAVE to knock out the already claiming poses. I suppose you could still blob one at a time, but if you did you'd be looking at weeks of fighting for one system because the other poses would be invulnerable while the first system was in reinforced. So to take land with a large force quickly you'd be best off attacking multiple systems at once using the hour after the first one goes down to take down multiple systems. Anyway I'm not saying this is THE solution, but you have to have some kind of game mechanic solution to encourage the breakup of the blob or it just won't happen. That said I was in v7- on saturday It took half an hour to load in to the system then I had no hud but still followed a gang warp and later warped to a gang member in a ss hoping that it would actually work. Relogged at that point this was about 45 minutes after hitting jump, took about 5 minutes to get back in then I was able to participate, unfortunately most of the fighting was done at that point, got in on a carrier kill and a few smaller engagements then had to leave.
DeTox MinRohim Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.07.30 13:56:00 - [185] Edited by: DeTox MinRohim on 30/07/2007 13:57:10 Originally by: Zak Kingsman They need to come up with a way to split up the blob. Say poses in systems adjacent to an OP also contribute to sov, make it so there is a limited time frame between the time the first POS contributing to sov goes down and till the time you cannot damage the other posses, say an hour or so. Fleet warfare is nice as it is. It's the servers that can't take it. You get lag/desync because the server can't send you the information fast enough (and client can't process it either) - lag - or its totally wacked, screwed and you get all sort of false information - desync. It probably would be the solution if reinforcing nodes (directing more power to it) helps but I guess that it's financially/physically impossible to put every systems on a node powerful enough to make it work... So... it's not today that we'll have Napolean lag/desync/free fleet fight. Extended downtime tomorrow related to all this... we'll see. ------ This sig space is Read-only ! omgalink - Online Skillsheet
ForumPosterAlt HERRO KITTY	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:05:00 - [186] Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 28/07/2007 20:53:00 I do wish people would do something other than complain about lag Have you ever wondered what exactly happens when a large fleet jumps into a system? The following is approximately what happens. 1. Everything on the grid is loaded to each person 2. All special effects and turret effects of anyone and everyone are broadcast to the people in question. Every person who hasn't turned off turret effects and effects adds a considerable amount of lag. 3. The information of their ship, and relevant statistics are loaded for every ship. Damage, tracking, etc. 4. The X Y Z coordinates of every drone is controlled and broadcast to everyone on the same grid. The amount of processing required by the node increases exponentially with every person added to a grid. Unfortunately, that is the nature of the code at this time. Until someone finds out a fantastically amazing way of reducing the amount of processing required for each individual, and more importantly, how to spread the data processing load past one processing core, things will not change. Until then, the more you blob, the more you lag. Don't complain about it; you know what is going to happen. Its actually not about processing power, the problem is synching everybody up with everyone else. Turrets arent a concern. Drones are though. If the server indeed controls the flight of drones then yes THAT is an issue cause now every player potentially counts as 6 as far as synching up is concerned. If thats the truth about drones, then god almighty, CCP needs to make drone movement and locations controlled by the client ASAP. That needs to be done yesterday, screw better graphics, I agree. Cause, oh man, 400 people in grid means that the server is... possibly controlling 2,400 entities.. holy god! And consider missiles, what if the servers coordinate missile flights in the same way.. /hurl. I doubt that would be much of a problem though cause current processors can handle a crazy amount of math. Maybe if CCP fixed drones and had some super-computers to handle fleet combat then the playability would get soo much better. And I think its a needed investment seeing as eve is CCP's meal ticket. I love eve I just hate to see the servers keep owning the players so hard. Because posting on the forums is serious business.
sophisticatedlimabean Gallente The JORG Corporation FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:15:00 - [187] We just go around in circles here blaming the lag. Honestly i think RAZOR have given us some very enjoyable fights over thae last few months and i think you guys are great sports. But unfortunatly when it comes down to taking systems and outposts in a terratorial war we have allies you have allies so we bring more and you bring more and up and up until the engagments become so large we will just crash the node. Please do not consider this an acusation or finger pointing as both sides are doing exactly what is needed to keep there space either by defending or attacking potential risks to there soverienty. I do know that CCP cannot fix the game so it is lag or desynch free when so many face so many in a single system. So it comes down to us to either live with it and carry on or to sort it amoung ourselves by reducing the type of fights we have or numbers in a engagment.
Zak Kingsman A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:19:00 - [188] Originally by: DeTox MinRohim Edited by: DeTox MinRohim on 30/07/2007 13:57:10 Originally by: Zak Kingsman They need to come up with a way to split up the blob. Say poses in systems adjacent to an OP also contribute to sov, make it so there is a limited time frame between the time the first POS contributing to sov goes down and till the time you cannot damage the other posses, say an hour or so. Fleet warfare is nice as it is. It's the servers that can't take it. You get lag/desync because the server can't send you the information fast enough (and client can't process it either) - lag - or its totally wacked, screwed and you get all sort of false information - desync. It probably would be the solution if reinforcing nodes (directing more power to it) helps but I guess that it's financially/physically impossible to put every systems on a node powerful enough to make it work... So... it's not today that we'll have Napolean lag/desync/free fleet fight. Extended downtime tomorrow related to all this... we'll see. Fleet warfare is nice, but you're seeing the size of the blobs increase as this game goes on. Way back in the good old days people talk about the large fleet fights that were fun, very rarely were there over 200 people in the system. Add in the fact that the record number of people online in game at that time was about 12000 and averaged between 8-10k, there were no fighters, no bubbles of any kind, no poses. These days not only do you have all the added content stuff in the poses, bubbles, capships etc. but you also have much larger blobs, many more people in the game, many many more people in 0.0 So yeah they need to break up the blob, you'll still get fleet fights, because breaking up 500 people over 5 systems is still asking for some pretty nice fleet engagements its just not going to be the massive hit on one system. CCP has the beefiest hardware I've ever heard of for an MMO. Is it possible there is some code that could be a little more efficient? Possibly, but when it comes down to it the best way to give some relief is to get people the hell out of Jita...err V7-
Neena Valdi Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:33:00 - [189] Originally by: Foxy CEO They've got to have some huge holes in their code somewhere. They're getting faster and faster hardware but the effective cap on fleet warfare is getting smaller and smaller. They really need to hire some sort of outside auditor to look at their codebase with fresh eyes. Where did you get it from? I can bet the current lag during the fleet engagements is caused for 95% by hardware limitations. The server hardware simply can't process that much of information real-time.
Shiraz Merlot Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:22:00 - [190] Originally by: Neena Valdi Originally by: Foxy CEO They've got to have some huge holes in their code somewhere. They're getting faster and faster hardware but the effective cap on fleet warfare is getting smaller and smaller. They really need to hire some sort of outside auditor to look at their codebase with fresh eyes. Where did you get it from? I can bet the current lag during the fleet engagements is caused for 95% by hardware limitations. The server hardware simply can't process that much of information real-time. Last time I looked, Stackless Python doesn't do SMP. Dunno if this has changed. If not then CCP have hit the architectural wall of nondistributed computation.

Aerick Dawn Gallente The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:29:00 - [191] Originally by: Amon Raa Can you people once call targest in reverse order from X to A please And yes lag was horible but at least I loaded.... But then my name is my curse so back for new Pest I second that!!@#!@#!@# __________________ If I'm in a fair fight, i've done something terribly wrong.
Lee Thrace Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:52:00 - [192] Quote: "HEY! Lee were is that t2 duct tape mate my vaga's in hull" hehe, i hid it
Neena Valdi Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:58:00 - [193] Originally by: Shiraz Merlot Last time I looked, Stackless Python doesn't do SMP. Dunno if this has changed. Well, most likely they have all time critical stuff coded in C++? Correct me if I'm wrong.
s3v3n7	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:00:00 - [194] lag???what lag.o the lag waiting 20 mins for everything to load up,and then seeing your wallet blinking,your sheilds going down and cant see noone shooting at you ! wonder why i spend 2k upgrading my pc for this crap
SerialTurd Ardent Industrial Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:15:00 - [195] Edited by: SerialTurd on 30/07/2007 16:18:40 Edited by: SerialTurd on 30/07/2007 16:15:42 I was with a 100ish ships in 2-3 on the day I think the engagements first started (saturday, not sure though). We were given the order to jump through. I've been in one large fleet engagement like this before but there were only around 350 in that engagement. In that engagnement I was able to jump into the system I never loaded any overview. I found myself in a pod when I logged in the next day. This one was 400+. My first experience in large fleet battles taught me to dumb down the game to make it like I'm running on a 386 computer. No audio, no blinking, no effects, low resolution, overview off. Well, the order was given to jump into v7. I clicked jumped, it said session change in progress for about 12 minutes. Finally it said I'm qued for 3 minutes to jump in. 3 minutes came and went. My chat boxes seemed to have frozen up cause nothing I typed was being responded to and there were no new updates. After about 30 minutes I logged and didn't even bother trying to log back on.
JoDirt Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:34:00 - [196] one word comes to mind... Unplayable. Jumped in and a half hour later overview starts to populate, modules take 5 minutes to active and mwd won't turn off once it is active. The really lame part, I was taking a new player (buddy of mine) on his first fleet op and he basically he was very turned off by the end of this engagement. CCP please get this fixed. Please...
gordon cain Minmatar M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:45:00 - [197] I would happily play with small icons or dots instead of graphical ships, pos etc if this would do it. No real need to see you ship in a fleet fight. Replace me with icons like a "map" kinda fight. But plz let me activate my guns more than 2 times in an engagement. gordon "Allways remember. Never argue with idiots, they will just drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience"
ARC Harpy Caldari ARC Angel Harpies	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:45:00 - [198] I just gave up Northen Bloc Intelligent Channels, wait I'll post them here too Northen Thrust Tribute_Coms Tenal_Coms Enjoy
SharonChrista Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:03:00 - [199] and ...you did it wrong in both places ??????? LOL
Lee Thrace Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:19:00 - [200] and he calls that intel!

Gumpy Nighthawk Amarr Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:21:00 - [201] Originally by: ARC Harpy I just gave up Northen Bloc Intelligent Channels, wait I'll post them here too Northen Thrust Tribute_Coms Tenal_Coms Enjoy Argh, run for the hills, time to call it quits, ppl know where we live and talk.....
George Petsch Caldari Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:29:00 - [202] Originally by: Shiraz Merlot Originally by: Neena Valdi Originally by: Foxy CEO They've got to have some huge holes in their code somewhere. They're getting faster and faster hardware but the effective cap on fleet warfare is getting smaller and smaller. They really need to hire some sort of outside auditor to look at their codebase with fresh eyes. Where did you get it from? I can bet the current lag during the fleet engagements is caused for 95% by hardware limitations. The server hardware simply can't process that much of information real-time. Last time I looked, Stackless Python doesn't do SMP. Dunno if this has changed. If not then CCP have hit the architectural wall of nondistributed computation. You sure stackless runs on the server too? thought it was only clientside with c++ on the server...
PirateShampoo Minmatar UK Corp FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:55:00 - [203] Originally by: Shiraz Merlot Originally by: Neena Valdi Originally by: Foxy CEO They've got to have some huge holes in their code somewhere. They're getting faster and faster hardware but the effective cap on fleet warfare is getting smaller and smaller. They really need to hire some sort of outside auditor to look at their codebase with fresh eyes. Where did you get it from? I can bet the current lag during the fleet engagements is caused for 95% by hardware limitations. The server hardware simply can't process that much of information real-time. Last time I looked, Stackless Python doesn't do SMP. Dunno if this has changed. If not then CCP have hit the architectural wall of nondistributed computation. Finally someone gets it :) Its long been known that one solar system = one server, the game architecture does allow splitting a system between nodes. And yes CCP this is what I do for a living and yes you can hire me as consultant :)
Double G Caldari CRICE Corporation	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:57:00 - [204] Wow I am so unhappy I missed this. owning space is overrated.
Foxy CEO Altcenaries	Posted - 2007.07.30 19:43:00 - [205] Originally by: Neena Valdi Originally by: Foxy CEO They've got to have some huge holes in their code somewhere. They're getting faster and faster hardware but the effective cap on fleet warfare is getting smaller and smaller. They really need to hire some sort of outside auditor to look at their codebase with fresh eyes. Where did you get it from? I can bet the current lag during the fleet engagements is caused for 95% by hardware limitations. The server hardware simply can't process that much of information real-time. Oh, I have no doubt that nodes crash only when the processing capacity for that node have been maxed out. We seem to be having trouble with 150 vs 150 now. Last year it was 200 v 200. Before that, more. It may be that bigger battles happen and these are just "bad days" when a lot of other stuff is happening on the same node, but it sure seems that the node crash threshold is shrinking (or at the very least not growing) while the capability of each individual node is being upgraded. It seems like their code is getting less efficient. The same number of ships shooting the same number of weapons at the same number of targets appears to be requiring more and more computational power. It makes me think they introduced a poorly coded feature, a bug, or both. The faster and faster nodes should be handling bigger and bigger battles, not smaller and smaller, and that's a software problem. NBALT Recruitment
NeverL Enterprise Estonia Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.30 20:01:00 - [206] its times more cheaper to buy new hardware then to review the code. ----------------- My dream is to become the best forum warrior there is. Even better then Molle Sir.
Foxy CEO Altcenaries	Posted - 2007.07.30 20:03:00 - [207] Originally by: NeverL its times more cheaper to buy new hardware then to review the code. Oh, yes. But when they buy new hardware and keep getting slower, maybe it's time to bite the bullet and look at the code. No matter how hard you hit the head of the nail with the flat side of the hammer, it's not coming out of the board. NBALT Recruitment
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.30 20:13:00 - [208] Originally by: s3v3n7 wonder why i spend 2k upgrading my pc for this crap Only 2k? I spend 3500Ç Offtopic: Why so much love to CoW & co.? Did we **** on RAZOR's cerials? "to be honest it makes me wonder about the mental state of a person who would join a corp called Space Perverts and Forum warriors"
Amy Robbins	Posted - 2007.07.30 20:16:00 - [209] Originally by: Kuolematon Originally by: s3v3n7 wonder why i spend 2k upgrading my pc for this crap Only 2k? I spend 3500Ç Offtopic: Why so much love to CoW & co.? Did we **** on RAZOR's cerials? cereals*
Amon Raa STK Scientific M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.07.30 20:19:00 - [210] I was in EC back in days when ASCN and BOB was sieging that sys with 600 in local... G- alliance jumped in(big cahunas boys-props to that)but it was like 10-15 sec lag on modules activation and that was that... Now days its like 300 in local-you get 30 mins grid load time... CCP DO SOMETHING DON'T JUST ADD MAKEUP MAKE OUR GAME FUN AGAIN!!!



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