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Missiles need to be fixed if Amarr are going to be stuck with them...

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Christari Zuborov Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.01 00:45:00 - [1] Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 01/08/2007 00:46:37 My specific issue along the lines of the missile launcher additions to the Amarr ships is it's completely counterintuitive to use HAMs vs. faster flying vessels. While they do in fact have a faster ROF, and they do have a faster explosive radius, they don't have a higher velocity to reach their target. Putting HAMs on a vessel in low-sec is like putting ** on a boar, they are completely useless. In 0.0 you have either fast agile, or slow lumbering flying vessels - almost zero in the speed band that these missiles are made for. Firing HAMs at BCs or above is pretty much a nuissance act, and firing HAMs at Cruisers or below won't even hit. Currently in order of speed, from fastest to slowest, missiles are: cruise - 3750 km/s heavy - 3750 km/s light - 3750 km/s rockets - 3250 km/s hams - 2250 km/s torp - 1250 km/s While they should be, given in order of base damage equaling weight in explosive content, and given the trade-off of packaging a guidance electronics package vs. not having one at all: rockets hams light heavy cuise torp So what does one do if every missile type is slower than a fast ship? You train the skill called "Missile Projection", it's used to increase the speed of guided missiles to bring your missiles closer to the ship speed, but this doesn't do squat for unguided missiles, and that's the type of missile that HAMs are! In fact, the three slowest missile types ALSO happen to be the unguided type! Normally, if you worry about hitting a fast ship, you train projectiles/lasers... The reason you train a projectile/lasers system is that if your target is in your range, and as long as their angular velocity isn't greater than your turrets traverse speed in rad/s, you hit them. This won't work with HAMs, as some of our ships will now be flying faster than the speed of missile leaving your hardpoint. This is a nerf to Amarr, they're taking away the ability to hit the faster ship types by replacing turreted points with missile points restricted to using the second slowest missile in game, which can't even hit a fast cruiser when their description states they should be used against smaller ships. One last point to CCP. You might want to change the Cruise Missile description from "Lifting-wing, jet-propelled guided missiles with heavy payloads." to "Jet-propelled guided missiles with heavy payloads.", as there's not much use for a lifting-wing** in space!!!
Dred 'Morte Winds of Dawn	Posted - 2007.08.01 00:55:00 - [2] I agree. Missiles need tweaking. Signature made by Mr Floppykickners
Banana Torres The Green Banana Corporation	Posted - 2007.08.01 01:06:00 - [3] Rockets and Heavy Assault Missiles are short range weapons so they don't need super fast speeds to reach the target. In fact one of the great things about them is that you can have your nose rubbing up against the target and not have to worry about tracking or any of the other hard stuff that makes turrets a pita to use. Now, if only there was a module that could reduce the speed of the target ship, it wouldn't have to work at long ranges 10Km would be enough. Just an idea.
Atama Cardel	Posted - 2007.08.01 01:15:00 - [4] I'm almost certain that missile projection affects unguided missiles. Quote: This is a nerf to Amarr, they're taking away the ability to hit the faster ship types by replacing turreted points with missile points Uhhhhh, isn't usually considered one of advantages of missiles being that they don't have to deal with tracking effectively making it easier to hit faster targets then turrets?
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.08.01 01:16:00 - [5] It's great being Amarr, isn't it? Not only will you have training times comparable to Caldari but now you'll see what missile user's life is like. You'll like it, or hate it, but chances are Caldari will benefit from the Khanid changes, which is a good thing. ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not.
Bobo Biggles Gallente B.Biggles Corp	Posted - 2007.08.01 01:22:00 - [6] This is totally off topic, but it had to be said. When I started reading this post I had the biggest Homer Simpson moment, all I could think was MMmmmmm HAM. I've been having one of those days and it took my brain several seconds to figure out that HAM did not refer to the tasty tasty meat that so many of us love. So, having said that I'll return to my quiet little corner and finish reading the post.
Nicholas Barker MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2007.08.01 01:47:00 - [7] Originally by: Christari Zuborov Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 01/08/2007 00:46:37 One last point to CCP. You might want to change the Cruise Missile description from "Lifting-wing, jet-propelled guided missiles with heavy payloads." to "Jet-propelled guided missiles with heavy payloads.", as there's not much use for a lifting-wing in space!!! no use for jet engines in space either. also, you're armor tanking, you have nice webs and the ability to fit ab/mwds without sacrificing anything that's overly important.. Caldari don't. ---
Nick Curso Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.08.01 01:58:00 - [8] Originally by: Nicholas Barker Originally by: Christari Zuborov Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 01/08/2007 00:46:37 One last point to CCP. You might want to change the Cruise Missile description from "Lifting-wing, jet-propelled guided missiles with heavy payloads." to "Jet-propelled guided missiles with heavy payloads.", as there's not much use for a lifting-wing in space!!! no use for jet engines in space either. also, you're armor tanking, you have nice webs and the ability to fit ab/mwds without sacrificing anything that's overly important.. Caldari don't. stop foum *****ing boy im watching u
Hanoi Hana	Posted - 2007.08.01 02:01:00 - [9] Originally by: Christari Zuborov One last point to CCP. You might want to change the Cruise Missile description from "Lifting-wing, jet-propelled guided missiles with heavy payloads." to "Jet-propelled guided missiles with heavy payloads.", as there's not much use for a lifting-wing in space!!! Hmm, really? Then what keeps my ship at 100m/s instead of 100m/s/s? Seems like some sort of viscous substance :)
Alan Bell Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.08.01 02:14:00 - [10] little bit off topic here... i thik if you ship is going faster then your missile, it shld start at that speed or faster... going 6 km/s and your missile somehow slows down and goes ~3km/s... Baka!
Goonswarmalwayslose	Posted - 2007.08.01 02:25:00 - [11] Ammar using missiles. Thats wrong!
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.01 02:29:00 - [12] Originally by: Christari Zuborov Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 01/08/2007 00:46:37 My specific issue along the lines of the missile launcher additions to the Amarr ships is it's completely counterintuitive to use HAMs vs. faster flying vessels. While they do in fact have a faster ROF, and they do have a faster explosive radius, they don't have a higher velocity to reach their target. Putting HAMs on a vessel in low-sec is like putting ** on a boar, they are completely useless. In 0.0 you have either fast agile, or slow lumbering flying vessels - almost zero in the speed band that these missiles are made for. Firing HAMs at BCs or above is pretty much a nuissance act, and firing HAMs at Cruisers or below won't even hit. Currently in order of speed, from fastest to slowest, missiles are: cruise - 3750 km/s heavy - 3750 km/s light - 3750 km/s rockets - 3250 km/s hams - 2250 km/s torp - 1250 km/s While they should be, given in order of base damage equaling weight in explosive content, and given the trade-off of packaging a guidance electronics package vs. not having one at all: rockets hams light heavy cuise torp So what does one do if every missile type is slower than a fast ship? You train the skill called "Missile Projection", it's used to increase the speed of guided missiles to bring your missiles closer to the ship speed, but this doesn't do squat for unguided missiles, and that's the type of missile that HAMs are! In fact, the three slowest missile types ALSO happen to be the unguided type! Normally, if you worry about hitting a fast ship, you train projectiles/lasers... The reason you train a projectile/lasers system is that if your target is in your range, and as long as their angular velocity isn't greater than your turrets traverse speed in rad/s, you hit them. This won't work with HAMs, as some of our ships will now be flying faster than the speed of missile leaving your hardpoint. This is a nerf to Amarr, they're taking away the ability to hit the faster ship types by replacing turreted points with missile points restricted to using the second slowest missile in game, which can't even hit a fast cruiser when their description states they should be used against smaller ships. One last point to CCP. You might want to change the Cruise Missile description from "Lifting-wing, jet-propelled guided missiles with heavy payloads." to "Jet-propelled guided missiles with heavy payloads.", as there's not much use for a lifting-wing in space!!! The new missile ships arn't even patched into TQ yet and already you jerks are whining about rockets/HAMs. STFU FFS. Originally by:** Goumindong it is at the point where it is impossible to determine whether or not you are trolling or if you area really out of your freaking mind.
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2007.08.01 02:40:00 - [13] Funny, I've had no problems at all with HAM's against anything other than interceptors and the occasional frigate. Compared to standard heavy missles they have better DPS, just a shorter range. They do quite nicely against anything cruiser and above, and as a minmatar pilot I've found they are an excellent compliment to autocannons. Usually something fast enough to get away from a HAM, is also fast enough that a heavy wouldn't be any use either due to the crappy explosion radius of both of them. You're just not going to hit frigates with a 50m sig radius very well with a 125m explosion radius. And if they're going 2km per sec or 4km per sec, either it's faster than the explosion velocity. Then again, you can also try the Javelin's, which start with about 1200m/s faster speed and have twice the flight time.
William Hamilton Caldari THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.01 02:45:00 - [14] ^Aye, it seems the main problems with HAMs so far have been crappy PG on caldari ships (not an issue with Amarr) and crappy tanking on most caldari ships designed around missiles (also not a problem with Amarr)
Cutie Chaser Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.01 03:20:00 - [15] Edited by: Cutie Chaser on 01/08/2007 03:20:46 Originally by: Christari Zuborov Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 01/08/2007 00:46:37 ...is like putting ** on a boar... More teats on a boar is a good thing actually. Spacing and number of teats is a heritable trait, and it is important for breeding purposes to make selections based on these things on both the sow AND boar. ...the more you know... * Thats a Templar, the amarr fighter. Its a combat drone used by carriers.
Christari Zuborov Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.01 04:23:00 - [16] Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 01/08/2007 04:26:05 Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 01/08/2007 04:24:10 Originally by: Siege Funny, I've had no problems at all with HAM's against anything other than interceptors and the occasional frigate. Compared to standard heavy missles they have better DPS, just a shorter range. They do quite nicely against anything cruiser and above, and as a minmatar pilot I've found they are an excellent compliment to autocannons. Usually something fast enough to get away from a HAM, is also fast enough that a heavy wouldn't be any use either due to the crappy explosion radius of both of them. You're just not going to hit frigates with a 50m sig radius very well with a 125m explosion radius. And if they're going 2km per sec or 4km per sec, either it's faster than the explosion velocity. Then again, you can also try the Javelin's, which start with about 1200m/s faster speed and have twice the flight time. Jav's are T2 HAMs, which of course uses more PG and CPU, but the main point is I see 4km/s ships daily Cruiser size and down. Missiles as they stand currently are great for PVE, but aren't suited well for PvP. You cannot train unguided missiles to go faster, and the Armarr ships are restricted to using the 2nd slowest unguided missile in game - the only one being slower is a the LARGEST missile a ship can carry, a torpedo. Lighter missiles with less explosive content and minus an electronics guidance package should be faster than their guided counterparts, if merely vs. weight alone. Considering ships tank vs. speed, and missiles lighter punch vs. turreted weapons, it's my opinion the lightest missiles should start at 7km/s in order to at least scratch anything but the fastest ships. Regardless if a ship speed tanked the missile to almost 0 dp, at least it would register SOMETHING.
Chainsaw Plankton	Posted - 2007.08.01 04:46:00 - [17] Originally by: Banana Torres Rockets and Heavy Assault Missiles are short range weapons so they don't need super fast speeds to reach the target. In fact one of the great things about them is that you can have your nose rubbing up against the target and not have to worry about tracking or any of the other hard stuff that makes turrets a pita to use. Now, if only there was a module that could reduce the speed of the target ship, it wouldn't have to work at long ranges 10Km would be enough. Just an idea. OMG AWESOME IDEA!!!! Banana Torres for admin!!!!!! and blasters are short range too, and who pvps with blasters?
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.08.01 04:48:00 - [18] Originally by: Goonswarmalwayslose Ammar using missiles. Thats wrong! your never played this game have you... Have you read the descriptions on the ammar ships that use missiles? those ships have been in the game for a very long time. and you makes you the person who should be able to decide what race should be able to use what weapons? All races can use missiles. With the this change I believe gallente are the only ones without a reason to train missiles. and the caldari don't have a reason to train drones. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP Quote: CCP posted a new dev blog, they are going to bring Nos in line with.....well....logic
Arrgs Retribution Corp.	Posted - 2007.08.01 04:51:00 - [19] My god, you people will cry about ANYTHING. Jesus Christ, you should be ***** estatic that these changes are coming. I'm not too fond of the Nos Change but I'll wait for it to TQ and give it awhile before I come a ***ing and moaning on the fourms. tl;dr: Cry less. My first video!
Daelorn	Posted - 2007.08.01 04:57:00 - [20] Edited by: Daelorn on 01/08/2007 04:57:48 Originally by: Arrgs My god, you people will cry about ANYTHING. Jesus Christ, you should be ***** estatic that these changes are coming. I'm not too fond of the Nos Change but I'll wait for it to TQ and give it awhile before I come a ***ing and moaning on the fourms. tl;dr: Cry less. My god, look at you whining about whiners. ☻ Cry less noob!
Arrgs Retribution Corp.	Posted - 2007.08.01 04:59:00 - [21] Originally by: Daelorn Edited by: Daelorn on 01/08/2007 04:57:48 Originally by: Arrgs My god, you people will cry about ANYTHING. Jesus Christ, you should be ***** estatic that these changes are coming. I'm not too fond of the Nos Change but I'll wait for it to TQ and give it awhile before I come a ***ing and moaning on the fourms. tl;dr: Cry less. My god, look at you whining about whiners. ☻ Cry less noob! I r be ranting about them. LEARNS THE DIFFRENCE FOOOL. ...I'm gonna get banned again tonight, I can tell. My first video!
Daelorn	Posted - 2007.08.01 05:03:00 - [22] Originally by: Arrgs Originally by: Daelorn Edited by: Daelorn on 01/08/2007 04:57:48 Originally by: Arrgs My god, you people will cry about ANYTHING. Jesus Christ, you should be ***** estatic that these changes are coming. I'm not too fond of the Nos Change but I'll wait for it to TQ and give it awhile before I come a *ing and moaning on the fourms. tl;dr: Cry less. My god, look at you whining about whiners. ☻ Cry less noob! I r be ranting about them. LEARNS THE DIFFRENCE FOOOL. ...I'm gonna get banned again tonight, I can tell. BIG RED LETTERS**
Arrgs Retribution Corp.	Posted - 2007.08.01 05:08:00 - [23] Edited by: Arrgs on 01/08/2007 05:09:48 Originally by: Daelorn Originally by: Arrgs Originally by: Daelorn Edited by: Daelorn on 01/08/2007 04:57:48 Originally by: Arrgs My god, you people will cry about ANYTHING. Jesus Christ, you should be ***** estatic that these changes are coming. I'm not too fond of the Nos Change but I'll wait for it to TQ and give it awhile before I come a *ing and moaning on the fourms. tl;dr: Cry less. My god, look at you whining about whiners. ☻ Cry less noob! I r be ranting about them. LEARNS THE DIFFRENCE FOOOL. ...I'm gonna get banned again tonight, I can tell. BIG RED LETTERS BIG PINK LETTERS I WIN!** My first video!
Daelorn	Posted - 2007.08.01 05:09:00 - [24] Originally by: Arrgs Originally by: Daelorn Originally by: Arrgs Originally by: Daelorn Edited by: Daelorn on 01/08/2007 04:57:48 Originally by: Arrgs My god, you people will cry about ANYTHING. Jesus Christ, you should be ***** estatic that these changes are coming. I'm not too fond of the Nos Change but I'll wait for it to TQ and give it awhile before I come a *ing and moaning on the fourms. tl;dr: Cry less. My god, look at you whining about whiners. ☻ Cry less noob! I r be ranting about them. LEARNS THE DIFFRENCE FOOOL. ...I'm gonna get banned again tonight, I can tell. BIG RED LETTERS [size=8] BIGGER PINK LETTERS I WIN! [/size=8]** YUO LEWZ FGT!
Tsukiko Ishida Amarr Emanation Of Malevolent Outcries	Posted - 2007.08.01 06:42:00 - [25] FAILEDÖ
Raekone	Posted - 2007.08.01 07:24:00 - [26] So what's an unguided missile then? Don't HAM's follow the target like regular heavy missiles/cruis/whatever? Or could it be that it's just something they put in the description and HAM's in fact work like all other missiles ^^
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.08.01 07:32:00 - [27] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 01/08/2007 07:31:53 ack nvm -- Billion Isk Mission
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.01 07:37:00 - [28] Oh, so suddenly when missiles have become your secondary weapon they need fixing? Where was the love for those of us who were supposed to use them as primary? CCP won't "fix" missiles. It's well known that Caldari mayn't have PvP; if for some reason something makes a Caldari ship useful for PvP either that or the ship gets nerfed CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.01 07:40:00 - [29] Originally by: Atama Cardel I'm almost certain that missile projection affects unguided missiles. Quote: This is a nerf to Amarr, they're taking away the ability to hit the faster ship types by replacing turreted points with missile points Uhhhhh, isn't usually considered one of advantages of missiles being that they don't have to deal with tracking effectively making it easier to hit faster targets then turrets? No, it's considered to be a huge disadvantage when your missiles are quite a bit slower than fast ships. And once a ship gets over a couple of thousand meters per second, even if the missile hits, it does so for 0.5hp because of the explosion velocity thing. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.01 08:13:00 - [30] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 01/08/2007 08:14:31 Where short-range missiles are concerned, there's nothing preventing you from fitting a webber. Or you could take along a friend in an interceptor to do the tackling for you. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.

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