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Captain Thunk
Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2007.08.01 08:50:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Rodj Blake
Where short-range missiles are concerned, there's nothing preventing you from fitting a webber.
Apart from the legendary Amarr lack of mid slots - actually Amarr doesn't need any slots, its not like there's much versatility with the setups, rather than have slots they should just come prefitted with the modules welded in - each ship should have three flavours T1, T2 and Faction.
As the recons have one bonus that will only work if your cap is less than the targets and the second bonus is only any use if your target has turrets they should add another bonus to all Amarr ships giving a 1 in 10 chance of causing your ship to spontaneously explode and deleting your character everytime you activate a module thereby putting you out of your misery.
I've begun training shield tanking ready for the next time CCP decide to buff Amarr.
Captain Thunk
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Mo adib
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Posted - 2007.08.01 08:50:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Sorja
It's great being Amarr, isn't it?
Not only will you have training times comparable to Caldari but now you'll see what missile user's life is like.
quote]
are you f'ing serious? unless I am totally misreading what you said do you have any idea how much worse training time in on amarr then caldari? ffs I fly both I do know and its like the two opposite sides of the spectrum
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Lord MuffloN
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.08.01 09:21:00 -
[33]
Missiles *could* use a bit tweaking in the explosive radius department
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Chrysalis D'lilth
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Posted - 2007.08.01 09:50:00 -
[34]
The arguments from turret fans are that at closer rangers, tracking speed plays a part and missiles don't have to contend with this.
Thats true.
Missiles have to contend with their opponents speed instead. While its true speed plays a part in tracking speed, it does not have the same direct relationship between speed/damage as it does with missiles.
If i'm a turret user the worst time for my tracking speed is when an opponent as achieved an orbit around me (speed is proportional here, high speed orbits = bigger penalty). The penalty lessens as my opponents trajectory aligns itself with mine. This means that if my opponent is flying directly at me/away from me I don't have any tracking penalty at all.
Compare this to a missile user. It doesn't matter if my opponent is flying at me, away from me, or around me, a missile user is penalised regardless if their opponent is moving at speed. The issue here intensifies in smaller ship combat where high speeds are more common.
A ships velocity has 2 effects on a missile
1) there is a reduction in damage based on whether the target is going faster than the missile.(whilst illustrated as different, it is the closest thing missile users come to tracking).
2) Missile vs Target speed. If the target is going faster than the missile, the missile may simply never hit and chase its target until its flight time expires. (something turret users never have to contend with)
I'd therefore suggest 3 changes
Firstly, double the velocity of all missiles - the question of hitting the target (thats in range), should be one of 'when?' not 'if?' this is something a turret user never has to face as turret ammo is 'instant hit'
Secondly - revisit the falloff damage scaling that missiles suffer when they hit targets at high veloicty/smaller sig radius. It makes sense they should hit for less against a fast moving inty, but given ships potential velocity, it seems over-nerfed in the current format.
thirdly - revisit HAM fitting reqs. What is with HAM fittings being higher than Heavy missile launchers? this is completely out of whack compared to Railguns/blasters or artillary/autocannons.
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Zeknichov
Amarr
Life. Universe. Everything.
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.01 10:50:00 -
[35]
I always read this thread as: Who cares about Caldari, but now that Amar are using missiles they need to be fixed
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Tecam Hund
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.08.01 12:00:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Christari Zuborov
Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 01/08/2007 00:46:37
My specific issue along the lines of the missile launcher additions to the Amarr ships is it's completely counterintuitive to use HAMs vs. faster flying vessels.
While they do in fact have a faster ROF, and they do have a faster explosive radius, they don't have a higher velocity to reach their target.
Putting HAMs on a vessel in low-sec is like putting **** on a boar, they are completely useless. In 0.0 you have either fast agile, or slow lumbering flying vessels - almost zero in the speed band that these missiles are made for. Firing HAMs at BCs or above is pretty much a nuissance act, and firing HAMs at Cruisers or below won't even hit.
Currently in order of speed, from fastest to slowest, missiles are:
cruise - 3750 km/s
heavy - 3750 km/s
light - 3750 km/s
rockets - 3250 km/s
hams - 2250 km/s
torp - 1250 km/s
While they should be, given in order of base damage equaling weight in explosive content, and given the trade-off of packaging a guidance electronics package vs. not having one at all:
rockets
hams
light
heavy
cuise
torp
So what does one do if every missile type is slower than a fast ship? You train the skill called "Missile Projection", it's used to increase the speed of guided missiles to bring your missiles closer to the ship speed, but this doesn't do squat for unguided missiles, and that's the type of missile that HAMs are! In fact, the three slowest missile types ALSO happen to be the unguided type!
Normally, if you worry about hitting a fast ship, you train projectiles/lasers...
The reason you train a projectile/lasers system is that if your target is in your range, and as long as their angular velocity isn't greater than your turrets traverse speed in rad/s, you hit them. This won't work with HAMs, as some of our ships will now be flying faster than the speed of missile leaving your hardpoint.
This is a nerf to Amarr, they're taking away the ability to hit the faster ship types by replacing turreted points with missile points restricted to using the second slowest missile in game, which can't even hit a fast cruiser when their description states they should be used against smaller ships.
One last point to CCP. You might want to change the Cruise Missile description from "Lifting-wing, jet-propelled guided missiles with heavy payloads." to "Jet-propelled guided missiles with heavy payloads.", as there's not much use for a lifting-wing in space!!! 
The classic "I want my weapons to be the win button" post.
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Christari Zuborov
Ore Mongers
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.08.01 14:02:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 01/08/2007 14:03:40
Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth
The arguments from turret fans are that at closer rangers, tracking speed plays a part and missiles don't have to contend with this.
Thats true.
Missiles have to contend with their opponents speed instead. While its true speed plays a part in tracking speed, it does not have the same direct relationship between speed/damage as it does with missiles.
If i'm a turret user the worst time for my tracking speed is when an opponent as achieved an orbit around me (speed is proportional here, high speed orbits = bigger penalty). The penalty lessens as my opponents trajectory aligns itself with mine. This means that if my opponent is flying directly at me/away from me I don't have any tracking penalty at all.
Compare this to a missile user. It doesn't matter if my opponent is flying at me, away from me, or around me, a missile user is penalised regardless if their opponent is moving at speed. The issue here intensifies in smaller ship combat where high speeds are more common.
A ships velocity has 2 effects on a missile
1) there is a reduction in damage based on whether the target is going faster than the missile.(whilst illustrated as different, it is the closest thing missile users come to tracking).
2) Missile vs Target speed. If the target is going faster than the missile, the missile may simply never hit and chase its target until its flight time expires. (something turret users never have to contend with)
I'd therefore suggest 3 changes
Firstly, double the velocity of all missiles - the question of hitting the target (thats in range), should be one of 'when?' not 'if?' this is something a turret user never has to face as turret ammo is 'instant hit'
Secondly - revisit the falloff damage scaling that missiles suffer when they hit targets at high veloicty/smaller sig radius. It makes sense they should hit for less against a fast moving inty, but given ships potential velocity, it seems over-nerfed in the current format.
thirdly - revisit HAM fitting reqs. What is with HAM fittings being higher than Heavy missile launchers? this is completely out of whack compared to Railguns/blasters or artillary/autocannons.
The part that kills me, is given my experience in military weaponry just how WRONG their lineup is. I realize comparing RL to a Sci-Fi game is pointless, but there's a point at which there has to be logic or, "Hey, I need another clip of 9mm for my laser pistol", would be perfectly acceptable.
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Victor Valka
Caldari
Archon Industries
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Posted - 2007.08.01 14:15:00 -
[38]
The page is flipped and a new chapter in EVE Online forum history begins.
Amarr and Caldari have formed an alliance the likes of which have never been seen before! All to further their wicked goal of universal dominance.
Their motto? "Today missiles, tomorrow - lasers!"
How will Gallente and Minmatar forces survive the wave of whines to come? How will forums cope?
Stay tuned! More in news at 11PM!
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firewalker220
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Posted - 2007.08.01 14:51:00 -
[39]
Inkeeping with RP, the damage types of exp and kin should be removed from missiles when fired by ammarians |
Wizzkidy
Demonic Retribution
Pure.
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Posted - 2007.08.01 14:53:00 -
[40]
Originally by: firewalker220
Inkeeping with RP, the damage types of exp and kin should be removed from missiles when fired by ammarians
eh  your pulling my leg I hope
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Ki Tarra
Caldari
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2007.08.01 16:08:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Ki Tarra on 01/08/2007 16:08:26
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 01/08/2007 08:37:51
You said
Quote:
You train the skill called "Missile Projection", it's used to increase the speed of guided missiles to bring your missiles closer to the ship speed, but this doesn't do squat for unguided missiles, and that's the type of missile that HAMs are!
I am sure that it effected Rockets and so on.
Skill discription states
"Skill at boosting missile bay propulsion systems and manipulating guided missiles' jet engines. 10% bonus to all missiles' maximum velocity per level."
So it effects missile bay propulsion systems (unguided) and manipulating guided missiles. Yes - it effects both guided and unguided missiles.
Or are you saying this skill is now broken? Quickfit shows that the skill effects unguided missiles, though anyone want to check ingame to see if anything has changed?
Or did I imagine that pre nerf I was shooting jav torps hitting 249km?
Yay! for whiners who don't know game mechanics! It is Guided Missile Precision, not Missile Projection that has no effect on Rockets, HAMs and Torps.
So your HAM's will have a hard time with targets smaller than 125m. That's what painters are for. As for Rockets, you're not going to find alot of targets that are smaller than 20m anyways.
Quote:
No misfortune is so bad that whining about it won't make it worse
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Hugh Ruka
Caldari
Free Traders
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Posted - 2007.08.01 16:20:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Zeknichov
I always read this thread as: Who cares about Caldari, but now that Amar are using missiles they need to be fixed
This one is nice !!! LOLZ !!!
Anyway, I am starting to see a trend where Amarr players do have 0 knowledge how missiles work yet that did not prevent them unleashing whine hell in nerf missile threads.
Sands of time have shifted.
Originally by: JP Beauregard
The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls.... 
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Derovius Vaden
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Posted - 2007.08.01 17:12:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Zeknichov
I always read this thread as: Who cares about Caldari, but now that Amar are using missiles they need to be fixed
That was the first thing that popped into my head; Caldari have been using missiles since day one, but now that the Amarr are using them, they should be made into WTFOWN just because they say so.
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Thorgore
Katana's Edge
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Posted - 2007.08.01 17:30:00 -
[44]
Am I the only Gallente character that sees these changes as a reason he WANTS to cross-rain into Amarr? Who wouldn't want a weapon system that uses no cap and the best passive resists in the game with a rep system that uses the least cap as well?
And to the OP, How well could you hit a ship going 4km/s with your lasers before?
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Matroshka
Crimson Squall
Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.01 17:52:00 -
[45]
"Missiles need to be fixed if Amarr are going to be stuck with them..."
It's really surprising to me how many people confined themselves to only using the split weapon Khanid ships.
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Lance Fighter
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.08.01 17:57:00 -
[46]
I do agree, that missiles that are unguided should be faster... But hell, nobody actually cares.
It seems to me that a heavy missile, that does less damage, with no guidance, should have either more flight time, or more max speed to fill up the extra space...
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Christari Zuborov
Ore Mongers
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.08.01 18:35:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Thorgore
Am I the only Gallente character that sees these changes as a reason he WANTS to cross-rain into Amarr? Who wouldn't want a weapon system that uses no cap and the best passive resists in the game with a rep system that uses the least cap as well?
And to the OP, How well could you hit a ship going 4km/s with your lasers before?
Quite well so long as that person was heading toward or away! It's a bit different with missiles, if the missile cannot at least match speeds, it won't hit.
As for the comments of, "I read the title as who cares about Caldari, but now that Amarr uses them they'll need to be fixed.", that's just plain silly and putting words in my mouth. Everyone knows the Raven is the best PVE ship in the game, and that you could use several other missile boats for PVE as well. The Caldari already have a very legitimate turreted hard point with hybrid guns, and great ships to boot with those systems, for PVP. The Amarr are being told missile systems are a boost in comparison to lasers, and that's just not right, when you speak about 0.0 space, which is what I said in the original post.
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Drizit
Amarr
Lonely out here
Black Sun Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.01 19:10:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Nicholas Barker
also, you're armor tanking, you have nice webs and the ability to fit ab/mwds without sacrificing anything that's overly important.. Caldari don't.
I see you have never flown an armor tanked ship then. YOU ARE VERY WRONG!
Yes, we can fit AB/MWD at the expense of cap use which I believe is required for armor tanking which Caldari don't really need with many of their passive shield tanked ships.
Also, with lows being used for shield rechargers, even more slots can be used by shield tanks than by any armor tanked ship. Armor tanks = lows only, Shield tanks = mids and lows.
--
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Zombie Network
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Posted - 2007.08.01 19:40:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Tecam Hund
The classic "I want my weapons to be the win button" post.
How exactly to do with without weapons again? The whole point of weapons is that they ARE win buttons.
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Jurgen Cartis
Caldari
Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
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Posted - 2007.08.01 19:52:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Christari Zuborov
The Caldari already have a very legitimate turreted hard point with hybrid guns, and great ships to boot with those systems, for PVP.
I hope you're only talking about the Harpy/Eagle/Rokh, our only true snipers. . . The Moa and Ferox are plagued with the same split weapons issue that most of the Khanid ships have on TQ now. (I.e. we think we're turret ships, but we're not quite sure here). Both of em could use another turret hardpoint tbh.
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ICE Blueprint Sales |
Cygnus Zhada
Amarr
UK Corp
FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.01 20:12:00 -
[51]
The issue (for me) is in three things;
- I chose Amarr for a reason, lasers. Changing half of the T2 ships to missile users may or may not hold from an RP POV but to me it sucks.
- The bonuses mostly only work for short range missiles, which severely limits your options and tactics, it's also very easy to counter such a ship since you know it's exact range (close to nothing). This is not even considering that some missiles aren't affected by certain missile skills.
- I can really see CCP sitting back now saying " there, we worked on Amarr, lets focus on something else for a while". While in fact they have done NOTHING for Amarr as such.
Unrelated (but adding) to this is ofcourse the NOS nerf; lets nerf the ONE Amarr shipclass that could actually solo oh and while we're at it make the Tier2 BS even more useless than it already is with it's cap bonus. Next you'll see new amarr pilots not training for cap related skills at all since it indirectly bites them in the ass.
Yes, I use lasers, please stop laughing in the back. |
tikinish
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Posted - 2007.08.01 20:43:00 -
[52]
Edited by: tikinish on 01/08/2007 20:50:00
did you just say what i thought you said?! if amarr is going to be stuck with them ?! WTF!!!! what about caldari, when we where stuck with them i heard NOTHING but NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF...
take a break there;)
but i see your point, what is needed is atleast a 6-8* speed increase, since some interceptors can come up to a speed of 20.000 m/s.
and personally i don't think any ship would be able to fly faster then the fastest flying missile, i mean how useless are those engeneers?! they can make a plain fly fast but not a missile?! WTF ?!? makes NO sense.
this would also fix the pvp problem they currently have.
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Cygnus Zhada
Amarr
UK Corp
FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.01 20:48:00 -
[53]
Caldari are the PVE gods, they also get bonuses to the longer range missiles AND they have ships with range bonuses. Amarr is the uhm... well... err...
Yes, I use lasers, please stop laughing in the back. |
tikinish
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Posted - 2007.08.01 20:53:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
Caldari are the PVE gods, they also get bonuses to the longer range missiles AND they have ships with range bonuses. Amarr is the uhm... well... err...
why is it that this have any matter when speaking of pvp?!
it's like saying, well we need more meat in burgers, and the oppesit side say's well you got alot of tomatos in your burger... O.o
WTF do the one thing have to do with the other?!
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E Vile
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Posted - 2007.08.01 20:57:00 -
[55]
I agree, missles suck. I disagree with the fact you say "Since amarr are going to be stuck with them"
Caldari ships have been stuck with them for way too long. I know caldari have some rail boats but these rail boats usually get range bonus.Caldari is not much for a DPS race.
"The key to immortality is to first live a life worth remembering."
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Malcanis
High4Life
Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.01 21:21:00 -
[56]
Originally by: tikinish
Edited by: tikinish on 01/08/2007 20:50:00
did you just say what i thought you said?! if amarr is going to be stuck with them ?! WTF!!!! what about caldari, when we where stuck with them i heard NOTHING but NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF...
take a break there;)
but i see your point, what is needed is atleast a 6-8* speed increase, since some interceptors can come up to a speed of 20.000 m/s.
and personally i don't think any ship would be able to fly faster then the fastest flying missile, i mean how useless are those engeneers?! they can make a plain fly fast but not a missile?! WTF ?!? makes NO sense.
this would also fix the pvp problem they currently have.
8x speed increase would be a bit excessive; those interceptors you speak of have a speed tank and a 700% speed increase would make T2 light missiles an iwin vs small ships
A 50% speed increase and a 33% flight time decrease for everything except torps would make a world of difference. Maybe increase ammo size to compensate.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.08.01 21:23:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: tikinish
Edited by: tikinish on 01/08/2007 20:50:00
did you just say what i thought you said?! if amarr is going to be stuck with them ?! WTF!!!! what about caldari, when we where stuck with them i heard NOTHING but NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF...
take a break there;)
but i see your point, what is needed is atleast a 6-8* speed increase, since some interceptors can come up to a speed of 20.000 m/s.
and personally i don't think any ship would be able to fly faster then the fastest flying missile, i mean how useless are those engeneers?! they can make a plain fly fast but not a missile?! WTF ?!? makes NO sense.
this would also fix the pvp problem they currently have.
8x speed increase would be a bit excessive; those interceptors you speak of have a speed tank and a 700% speed increase would make T2 light missiles an iwin vs small ships
A 50% speed increase and a 33% flight time decrease for everything except torps would make a world of difference. Maybe increase ammo size to compensate.
nope, your wrong on one lvl. If the ship was still going faster than the explosion radius then it would still take no damage. even if the missile caught up.
-----------------------------------
I'm working my way through college
target CCP
Quote:
CCP posted a new dev blog, they are going to bring Nos in line with.....well....logic
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Christari Zuborov
Ore Mongers
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.08.01 21:25:00 -
[58]
Originally by: E Vile
I agree, missles suck. I disagree with the fact you say "Since amarr are going to be stuck with them"
Caldari ships have been stuck with them for way too long. I know caldari have some rail boats but these rail boats usually get range bonus.Caldari is not much for a DPS race.
It was a poor choice in title... for that I apologize, but I'd rather continue discussing the points rather than closing down a thread WITH good points because of this alone.
I agree, I know I don't like hybrid t2 ammo for railguns... The turret traverse, range bonus, or cap reduction, or whatever leaves less than desired, but on top of that it also doesn't do that great of damage because railguns are restricted to kin/therm damaage while everyone tanks that. I have trained some Caldari ships because of the lack of availability in 0.0 of Amarr vessels. I have a Raven and a Harpy, and I find the Raven is only good in large groups. The Harpy seems best not being in your opponents combat range, and adequate from long distances.
The best PVP ships are the ones that AREN'T using these standard technologies, but using something different to reduce your opponents ability to wage war. We see what happened to a numnber of those ships in this patch though :( Solo PVP mobiles AREN'T the issue, when it comes to that, differing mods should have adverse effects on different opponents.
BUT all of the above is off topic from the point of this thread.
The only reason why I bring up Caldari is while they're not very dominant, you have to admit they do have a greater number of adequate vessels for PVP than Amarr does. It also seems that the PVP vessels of choice for Caldari ships AREN'T missile boats. If CCP is wanting to give Amarr PVP missile boats then I guess that's a boost, but it doesn't seem right.
When I first joined the game, about 2 months in I started noting differences in ships and strategies and I realized that Amarr wasn't on an even playing field. So I started asking in help chat different questions and I was told that even though I was Amarr, I could just train one of the other races and use their stuff if I found a shortfall in my race. Well yeah, duh, but what's the point?
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Malcanis
High4Life
Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.01 21:32:00 -
[59]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: tikinish
Edited by: tikinish on 01/08/2007 20:50:00
did you just say what i thought you said?! if amarr is going to be stuck with them ?! WTF!!!! what about caldari, when we where stuck with them i heard NOTHING but NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF...
take a break there;)
but i see your point, what is needed is atleast a 6-8* speed increase, since some interceptors can come up to a speed of 20.000 m/s.
and personally i don't think any ship would be able to fly faster then the fastest flying missile, i mean how useless are those engeneers?! they can make a plain fly fast but not a missile?! WTF ?!? makes NO sense.
this would also fix the pvp problem they currently have.
8x speed increase would be a bit excessive; those interceptors you speak of have a speed tank and a 700% speed increase would make T2 light missiles an iwin vs small ships
A 50% speed increase and a 33% flight time decrease for everything except torps would make a world of difference. Maybe increase ammo size to compensate.
nope, your wrong on one lvl. If the ship was still going faster than the explosion radius then it would still take no damage. even if the missile caught up.
Yes, that's true indeed. Since the missile support skills are pretty sucky - compare Warhead Upgrades to Surgical Strike, never mind Drone Interfacing - Target Navigation Prediction helps though, and it's only rank 2. Perhaps to compensate for the suckiness of WU, an advanced skill (Rank 5, required Target Nav V and WU IV) giving +10% explosion velocity per level?
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Christari Zuborov
Ore Mongers
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.08.01 21:48:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: tikinish
Edited by: tikinish on 01/08/2007 20:50:00
did you just say what i thought you said?! if amarr is going to be stuck with them ?! WTF!!!! what about caldari, when we where stuck with them i heard NOTHING but NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF...
take a break there;)
but i see your point, what is needed is atleast a 6-8* speed increase, since some interceptors can come up to a speed of 20.000 m/s.
and personally i don't think any ship would be able to fly faster then the fastest flying missile, i mean how useless are those engeneers?! they can make a plain fly fast but not a missile?! WTF ?!? makes NO sense.
this would also fix the pvp problem they currently have.
8x speed increase would be a bit excessive; those interceptors you speak of have a speed tank and a 700% speed increase would make T2 light missiles an iwin vs small ships
A 50% speed increase and a 33% flight time decrease for everything except torps would make a world of difference. Maybe increase ammo size to compensate.
nope, your wrong on one lvl. If the ship was still going faster than the explosion radius then it would still take no damage. even if the missile caught up.
Yes, that's true indeed. Since the missile support skills are pretty sucky - compare Warhead Upgrades to Surgical Strike, never mind Drone Interfacing - Target Navigation Prediction helps though, and it's only rank 2. Perhaps to compensate for the suckiness of WU, an advanced skill (Rank 5, required Target Nav V and WU IV) giving +10% explosion velocity per level?
Missiles should be speed tankable to nearly nill, but they shouldn't be out run except by the smallest and quickest of ships. That's where a lot of angst for me comes from, at least if you have a 10 missiles boats vs. 1 small ship, you can change his mind if you can hit him - you may not kill him - but you should be capable of changing his mind.
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