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Missiles need to be fixed if Amarr are going to be stuck with them...

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Christari Zuborov Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.01 00:45:00 - [1] Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 01/08/2007 00:46:37 My specific issue along the lines of the missile launcher additions to the Amarr ships is it's completely counterintuitive to use HAMs vs. faster flying vessels. While they do in fact have a faster ROF, and they do have a faster explosive radius, they don't have a higher velocity to reach their target. Putting HAMs on a vessel in low-sec is like putting ** on a boar, they are completely useless. In 0.0 you have either fast agile, or slow lumbering flying vessels - almost zero in the speed band that these missiles are made for. Firing HAMs at BCs or above is pretty much a nuissance act, and firing HAMs at Cruisers or below won't even hit. Currently in order of speed, from fastest to slowest, missiles are: cruise - 3750 km/s heavy - 3750 km/s light - 3750 km/s rockets - 3250 km/s hams - 2250 km/s torp - 1250 km/s While they should be, given in order of base damage equaling weight in explosive content, and given the trade-off of packaging a guidance electronics package vs. not having one at all: rockets hams light heavy cuise torp So what does one do if every missile type is slower than a fast ship? You train the skill called "Missile Projection", it's used to increase the speed of guided missiles to bring your missiles closer to the ship speed, but this doesn't do squat for unguided missiles, and that's the type of missile that HAMs are! In fact, the three slowest missile types ALSO happen to be the unguided type! Normally, if you worry about hitting a fast ship, you train projectiles/lasers... The reason you train a projectile/lasers system is that if your target is in your range, and as long as their angular velocity isn't greater than your turrets traverse speed in rad/s, you hit them. This won't work with HAMs, as some of our ships will now be flying faster than the speed of missile leaving your hardpoint. This is a nerf to Amarr, they're taking away the ability to hit the faster ship types by replacing turreted points with missile points restricted to using the second slowest missile in game, which can't even hit a fast cruiser when their description states they should be used against smaller ships. One last point to CCP. You might want to change the Cruise Missile description from "Lifting-wing, jet-propelled guided missiles with heavy payloads." to "Jet-propelled guided missiles with heavy payloads.", as there's not much use for a lifting-wing** in space!!!
Dred 'Morte Winds of Dawn	Posted - 2007.08.01 00:55:00 - [2] I agree. Missiles need tweaking. Signature made by Mr Floppykickners
Banana Torres The Green Banana Corporation	Posted - 2007.08.01 01:06:00 - [3] Rockets and Heavy Assault Missiles are short range weapons so they don't need super fast speeds to reach the target. In fact one of the great things about them is that you can have your nose rubbing up against the target and not have to worry about tracking or any of the other hard stuff that makes turrets a pita to use. Now, if only there was a module that could reduce the speed of the target ship, it wouldn't have to work at long ranges 10Km would be enough. Just an idea.
Atama Cardel	Posted - 2007.08.01 01:15:00 - [4] I'm almost certain that missile projection affects unguided missiles. Quote: This is a nerf to Amarr, they're taking away the ability to hit the faster ship types by replacing turreted points with missile points Uhhhhh, isn't usually considered one of advantages of missiles being that they don't have to deal with tracking effectively making it easier to hit faster targets then turrets?
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.08.01 01:16:00 - [5] It's great being Amarr, isn't it? Not only will you have training times comparable to Caldari but now you'll see what missile user's life is like. You'll like it, or hate it, but chances are Caldari will benefit from the Khanid changes, which is a good thing. ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not.
Bobo Biggles Gallente B.Biggles Corp	Posted - 2007.08.01 01:22:00 - [6] This is totally off topic, but it had to be said. When I started reading this post I had the biggest Homer Simpson moment, all I could think was MMmmmmm HAM. I've been having one of those days and it took my brain several seconds to figure out that HAM did not refer to the tasty tasty meat that so many of us love. So, having said that I'll return to my quiet little corner and finish reading the post.
Nicholas Barker MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2007.08.01 01:47:00 - [7] Originally by: Christari Zuborov Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 01/08/2007 00:46:37 One last point to CCP. You might want to change the Cruise Missile description from "Lifting-wing, jet-propelled guided missiles with heavy payloads." to "Jet-propelled guided missiles with heavy payloads.", as there's not much use for a lifting-wing in space!!! no use for jet engines in space either. also, you're armor tanking, you have nice webs and the ability to fit ab/mwds without sacrificing anything that's overly important.. Caldari don't. ---
Nick Curso Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.08.01 01:58:00 - [8] Originally by: Nicholas Barker Originally by: Christari Zuborov Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 01/08/2007 00:46:37 One last point to CCP. You might want to change the Cruise Missile description from "Lifting-wing, jet-propelled guided missiles with heavy payloads." to "Jet-propelled guided missiles with heavy payloads.", as there's not much use for a lifting-wing in space!!! no use for jet engines in space either. also, you're armor tanking, you have nice webs and the ability to fit ab/mwds without sacrificing anything that's overly important.. Caldari don't. stop foum *****ing boy im watching u
Hanoi Hana	Posted - 2007.08.01 02:01:00 - [9] Originally by: Christari Zuborov One last point to CCP. You might want to change the Cruise Missile description from "Lifting-wing, jet-propelled guided missiles with heavy payloads." to "Jet-propelled guided missiles with heavy payloads.", as there's not much use for a lifting-wing in space!!! Hmm, really? Then what keeps my ship at 100m/s instead of 100m/s/s? Seems like some sort of viscous substance :)
Alan Bell Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.08.01 02:14:00 - [10] little bit off topic here... i thik if you ship is going faster then your missile, it shld start at that speed or faster... going 6 km/s and your missile somehow slows down and goes ~3km/s... Baka!
Goonswarmalwayslose	Posted - 2007.08.01 02:25:00 - [11] Ammar using missiles. Thats wrong!
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.01 02:29:00 - [12] Originally by: Christari Zuborov Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 01/08/2007 00:46:37 My specific issue along the lines of the missile launcher additions to the Amarr ships is it's completely counterintuitive to use HAMs vs. faster flying vessels. While they do in fact have a faster ROF, and they do have a faster explosive radius, they don't have a higher velocity to reach their target. Putting HAMs on a vessel in low-sec is like putting ** on a boar, they are completely useless. In 0.0 you have either fast agile, or slow lumbering flying vessels - almost zero in the speed band that these missiles are made for. Firing HAMs at BCs or above is pretty much a nuissance act, and firing HAMs at Cruisers or below won't even hit. Currently in order of speed, from fastest to slowest, missiles are: cruise - 3750 km/s heavy - 3750 km/s light - 3750 km/s rockets - 3250 km/s hams - 2250 km/s torp - 1250 km/s While they should be, given in order of base damage equaling weight in explosive content, and given the trade-off of packaging a guidance electronics package vs. not having one at all: rockets hams light heavy cuise torp So what does one do if every missile type is slower than a fast ship? You train the skill called "Missile Projection", it's used to increase the speed of guided missiles to bring your missiles closer to the ship speed, but this doesn't do squat for unguided missiles, and that's the type of missile that HAMs are! In fact, the three slowest missile types ALSO happen to be the unguided type! Normally, if you worry about hitting a fast ship, you train projectiles/lasers... The reason you train a projectile/lasers system is that if your target is in your range, and as long as their angular velocity isn't greater than your turrets traverse speed in rad/s, you hit them. This won't work with HAMs, as some of our ships will now be flying faster than the speed of missile leaving your hardpoint. This is a nerf to Amarr, they're taking away the ability to hit the faster ship types by replacing turreted points with missile points restricted to using the second slowest missile in game, which can't even hit a fast cruiser when their description states they should be used against smaller ships. One last point to CCP. You might want to change the Cruise Missile description from "Lifting-wing, jet-propelled guided missiles with heavy payloads." to "Jet-propelled guided missiles with heavy payloads.", as there's not much use for a lifting-wing in space!!! The new missile ships arn't even patched into TQ yet and already you jerks are whining about rockets/HAMs. STFU FFS. Originally by:** Goumindong it is at the point where it is impossible to determine whether or not you are trolling or if you area really out of your freaking mind.
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2007.08.01 02:40:00 - [13] Funny, I've had no problems at all with HAM's against anything other than interceptors and the occasional frigate. Compared to standard heavy missles they have better DPS, just a shorter range. They do quite nicely against anything cruiser and above, and as a minmatar pilot I've found they are an excellent compliment to autocannons. Usually something fast enough to get away from a HAM, is also fast enough that a heavy wouldn't be any use either due to the crappy explosion radius of both of them. You're just not going to hit frigates with a 50m sig radius very well with a 125m explosion radius. And if they're going 2km per sec or 4km per sec, either it's faster than the explosion velocity. Then again, you can also try the Javelin's, which start with about 1200m/s faster speed and have twice the flight time.
William Hamilton Caldari THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.01 02:45:00 - [14] ^Aye, it seems the main problems with HAMs so far have been crappy PG on caldari ships (not an issue with Amarr) and crappy tanking on most caldari ships designed around missiles (also not a problem with Amarr)
Cutie Chaser Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.01 03:20:00 - [15] Edited by: Cutie Chaser on 01/08/2007 03:20:46 Originally by: Christari Zuborov Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 01/08/2007 00:46:37 ...is like putting ** on a boar... More teats on a boar is a good thing actually. Spacing and number of teats is a heritable trait, and it is important for breeding purposes to make selections based on these things on both the sow AND boar. ...the more you know... * Thats a Templar, the amarr fighter. Its a combat drone used by carriers.
Christari Zuborov Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.01 04:23:00 - [16] Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 01/08/2007 04:26:05 Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 01/08/2007 04:24:10 Originally by: Siege Funny, I've had no problems at all with HAM's against anything other than interceptors and the occasional frigate. Compared to standard heavy missles they have better DPS, just a shorter range. They do quite nicely against anything cruiser and above, and as a minmatar pilot I've found they are an excellent compliment to autocannons. Usually something fast enough to get away from a HAM, is also fast enough that a heavy wouldn't be any use either due to the crappy explosion radius of both of them. You're just not going to hit frigates with a 50m sig radius very well with a 125m explosion radius. And if they're going 2km per sec or 4km per sec, either it's faster than the explosion velocity. Then again, you can also try the Javelin's, which start with about 1200m/s faster speed and have twice the flight time. Jav's are T2 HAMs, which of course uses more PG and CPU, but the main point is I see 4km/s ships daily Cruiser size and down. Missiles as they stand currently are great for PVE, but aren't suited well for PvP. You cannot train unguided missiles to go faster, and the Armarr ships are restricted to using the 2nd slowest unguided missile in game - the only one being slower is a the LARGEST missile a ship can carry, a torpedo. Lighter missiles with less explosive content and minus an electronics guidance package should be faster than their guided counterparts, if merely vs. weight alone. Considering ships tank vs. speed, and missiles lighter punch vs. turreted weapons, it's my opinion the lightest missiles should start at 7km/s in order to at least scratch anything but the fastest ships. Regardless if a ship speed tanked the missile to almost 0 dp, at least it would register SOMETHING.
Chainsaw Plankton	Posted - 2007.08.01 04:46:00 - [17] Originally by: Banana Torres Rockets and Heavy Assault Missiles are short range weapons so they don't need super fast speeds to reach the target. In fact one of the great things about them is that you can have your nose rubbing up against the target and not have to worry about tracking or any of the other hard stuff that makes turrets a pita to use. Now, if only there was a module that could reduce the speed of the target ship, it wouldn't have to work at long ranges 10Km would be enough. Just an idea. OMG AWESOME IDEA!!!! Banana Torres for admin!!!!!! and blasters are short range too, and who pvps with blasters?
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.08.01 04:48:00 - [18] Originally by: Goonswarmalwayslose Ammar using missiles. Thats wrong! your never played this game have you... Have you read the descriptions on the ammar ships that use missiles? those ships have been in the game for a very long time. and you makes you the person who should be able to decide what race should be able to use what weapons? All races can use missiles. With the this change I believe gallente are the only ones without a reason to train missiles. and the caldari don't have a reason to train drones. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP Quote: CCP posted a new dev blog, they are going to bring Nos in line with.....well....logic
Arrgs Retribution Corp.	Posted - 2007.08.01 04:51:00 - [19] My god, you people will cry about ANYTHING. Jesus Christ, you should be ***** estatic that these changes are coming. I'm not too fond of the Nos Change but I'll wait for it to TQ and give it awhile before I come a ***ing and moaning on the fourms. tl;dr: Cry less. My first video!
Daelorn	Posted - 2007.08.01 04:57:00 - [20] Edited by: Daelorn on 01/08/2007 04:57:48 Originally by: Arrgs My god, you people will cry about ANYTHING. Jesus Christ, you should be ***** estatic that these changes are coming. I'm not too fond of the Nos Change but I'll wait for it to TQ and give it awhile before I come a ***ing and moaning on the fourms. tl;dr: Cry less. My god, look at you whining about whiners. ☻ Cry less noob!
Arrgs Retribution Corp.	Posted - 2007.08.01 04:59:00 - [21] Originally by: Daelorn Edited by: Daelorn on 01/08/2007 04:57:48 Originally by: Arrgs My god, you people will cry about ANYTHING. Jesus Christ, you should be ***** estatic that these changes are coming. I'm not too fond of the Nos Change but I'll wait for it to TQ and give it awhile before I come a ***ing and moaning on the fourms. tl;dr: Cry less. My god, look at you whining about whiners. ☻ Cry less noob! I r be ranting about them. LEARNS THE DIFFRENCE FOOOL. ...I'm gonna get banned again tonight, I can tell. My first video!
Daelorn	Posted - 2007.08.01 05:03:00 - [22] Originally by: Arrgs Originally by: Daelorn Edited by: Daelorn on 01/08/2007 04:57:48 Originally by: Arrgs My god, you people will cry about ANYTHING. Jesus Christ, you should be ***** estatic that these changes are coming. I'm not too fond of the Nos Change but I'll wait for it to TQ and give it awhile before I come a *ing and moaning on the fourms. tl;dr: Cry less. My god, look at you whining about whiners. ☻ Cry less noob! I r be ranting about them. LEARNS THE DIFFRENCE FOOOL. ...I'm gonna get banned again tonight, I can tell. BIG RED LETTERS**
Arrgs Retribution Corp.	Posted - 2007.08.01 05:08:00 - [23] Edited by: Arrgs on 01/08/2007 05:09:48 Originally by: Daelorn Originally by: Arrgs Originally by: Daelorn Edited by: Daelorn on 01/08/2007 04:57:48 Originally by: Arrgs My god, you people will cry about ANYTHING. Jesus Christ, you should be ***** estatic that these changes are coming. I'm not too fond of the Nos Change but I'll wait for it to TQ and give it awhile before I come a *ing and moaning on the fourms. tl;dr: Cry less. My god, look at you whining about whiners. ☻ Cry less noob! I r be ranting about them. LEARNS THE DIFFRENCE FOOOL. ...I'm gonna get banned again tonight, I can tell. BIG RED LETTERS BIG PINK LETTERS I WIN!** My first video!
Daelorn	Posted - 2007.08.01 05:09:00 - [24] Originally by: Arrgs Originally by: Daelorn Originally by: Arrgs Originally by: Daelorn Edited by: Daelorn on 01/08/2007 04:57:48 Originally by: Arrgs My god, you people will cry about ANYTHING. Jesus Christ, you should be ***** estatic that these changes are coming. I'm not too fond of the Nos Change but I'll wait for it to TQ and give it awhile before I come a *ing and moaning on the fourms. tl;dr: Cry less. My god, look at you whining about whiners. ☻ Cry less noob! I r be ranting about them. LEARNS THE DIFFRENCE FOOOL. ...I'm gonna get banned again tonight, I can tell. BIG RED LETTERS [size=8] BIGGER PINK LETTERS I WIN! [/size=8]** YUO LEWZ FGT!
Tsukiko Ishida Amarr Emanation Of Malevolent Outcries	Posted - 2007.08.01 06:42:00 - [25] FAILEDÖ
Raekone	Posted - 2007.08.01 07:24:00 - [26] So what's an unguided missile then? Don't HAM's follow the target like regular heavy missiles/cruis/whatever? Or could it be that it's just something they put in the description and HAM's in fact work like all other missiles ^^
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.08.01 07:32:00 - [27] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 01/08/2007 07:31:53 ack nvm -- Billion Isk Mission
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.01 07:37:00 - [28] Oh, so suddenly when missiles have become your secondary weapon they need fixing? Where was the love for those of us who were supposed to use them as primary? CCP won't "fix" missiles. It's well known that Caldari mayn't have PvP; if for some reason something makes a Caldari ship useful for PvP either that or the ship gets nerfed CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.01 07:40:00 - [29] Originally by: Atama Cardel I'm almost certain that missile projection affects unguided missiles. Quote: This is a nerf to Amarr, they're taking away the ability to hit the faster ship types by replacing turreted points with missile points Uhhhhh, isn't usually considered one of advantages of missiles being that they don't have to deal with tracking effectively making it easier to hit faster targets then turrets? No, it's considered to be a huge disadvantage when your missiles are quite a bit slower than fast ships. And once a ship gets over a couple of thousand meters per second, even if the missile hits, it does so for 0.5hp because of the explosion velocity thing. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.01 08:13:00 - [30] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 01/08/2007 08:14:31 Where short-range missiles are concerned, there's nothing preventing you from fitting a webber. Or you could take along a friend in an interceptor to do the tackling for you. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Captain Thunk Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.08.01 08:50:00 - [31] Originally by: Rodj Blake Where short-range missiles are concerned, there's nothing preventing you from fitting a webber. Apart from the legendary Amarr lack of mid slots - actually Amarr doesn't need any slots, its not like there's much versatility with the setups, rather than have slots they should just come prefitted with the modules welded in - each ship should have three flavours T1, T2 and Faction. As the recons have one bonus that will only work if your cap is less than the targets and the second bonus is only any use if your target has turrets they should add another bonus to all Amarr ships giving a 1 in 10 chance of causing your ship to spontaneously explode and deleting your character everytime you activate a module thereby putting you out of your misery. I've begun training shield tanking ready for the next time CCP decide to buff Amarr. Captain Thunk
Mo adib	Posted - 2007.08.01 08:50:00 - [32] Originally by: Sorja It's great being Amarr, isn't it? Not only will you have training times comparable to Caldari but now you'll see what missile user's life is like. quote] are you f'ing serious? unless I am totally misreading what you said do you have any idea how much worse training time in on amarr then caldari? ffs I fly both I do know and its like the two opposite sides of the spectrum
Lord MuffloN Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.08.01 09:21:00 - [33] Missiles could use a bit tweaking in the explosive radius department
Chrysalis D'lilth	Posted - 2007.08.01 09:50:00 - [34] The arguments from turret fans are that at closer rangers, tracking speed plays a part and missiles don't have to contend with this. Thats true. Missiles have to contend with their opponents speed instead. While its true speed plays a part in tracking speed, it does not have the same direct relationship between speed/damage as it does with missiles. If i'm a turret user the worst time for my tracking speed is when an opponent as achieved an orbit around me (speed is proportional here, high speed orbits = bigger penalty). The penalty lessens as my opponents trajectory aligns itself with mine. This means that if my opponent is flying directly at me/away from me I don't have any tracking penalty at all. Compare this to a missile user. It doesn't matter if my opponent is flying at me, away from me, or around me, a missile user is penalised regardless if their opponent is moving at speed. The issue here intensifies in smaller ship combat where high speeds are more common. A ships velocity has 2 effects on a missile 1) there is a reduction in damage based on whether the target is going faster than the missile.(whilst illustrated as different, it is the closest thing missile users come to tracking). 2) Missile vs Target speed. If the target is going faster than the missile, the missile may simply never hit and chase its target until its flight time expires. (something turret users never have to contend with) I'd therefore suggest 3 changes Firstly, double the velocity of all missiles - the question of hitting the target (thats in range), should be one of 'when?' not 'if?' this is something a turret user never has to face as turret ammo is 'instant hit' Secondly - revisit the falloff damage scaling that missiles suffer when they hit targets at high veloicty/smaller sig radius. It makes sense they should hit for less against a fast moving inty, but given ships potential velocity, it seems over-nerfed in the current format. thirdly - revisit HAM fitting reqs. What is with HAM fittings being higher than Heavy missile launchers? this is completely out of whack compared to Railguns/blasters or artillary/autocannons.
Zeknichov Amarr Life. Universe. Everything. Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.01 10:50:00 - [35] I always read this thread as: Who cares about Caldari, but now that Amar* are using missiles they need to be fixed*
Tecam Hund Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.08.01 12:00:00 - [36] Originally by: Christari Zuborov Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 01/08/2007 00:46:37 My specific issue along the lines of the missile launcher additions to the Amarr ships is it's completely counterintuitive to use HAMs vs. faster flying vessels. While they do in fact have a faster ROF, and they do have a faster explosive radius, they don't have a higher velocity to reach their target. Putting HAMs on a vessel in low-sec is like putting ** on a boar, they are completely useless. In 0.0 you have either fast agile, or slow lumbering flying vessels - almost zero in the speed band that these missiles are made for. Firing HAMs at BCs or above is pretty much a nuissance act, and firing HAMs at Cruisers or below won't even hit. Currently in order of speed, from fastest to slowest, missiles are: cruise - 3750 km/s heavy - 3750 km/s light - 3750 km/s rockets - 3250 km/s hams - 2250 km/s torp - 1250 km/s While they should be, given in order of base damage equaling weight in explosive content, and given the trade-off of packaging a guidance electronics package vs. not having one at all: rockets hams light heavy cuise torp So what does one do if every missile type is slower than a fast ship? You train the skill called "Missile Projection", it's used to increase the speed of guided missiles to bring your missiles closer to the ship speed, but this doesn't do squat for unguided missiles, and that's the type of missile that HAMs are! In fact, the three slowest missile types ALSO happen to be the unguided type! Normally, if you worry about hitting a fast ship, you train projectiles/lasers... The reason you train a projectile/lasers system is that if your target is in your range, and as long as their angular velocity isn't greater than your turrets traverse speed in rad/s, you hit them. This won't work with HAMs, as some of our ships will now be flying faster than the speed of missile leaving your hardpoint. This is a nerf to Amarr, they're taking away the ability to hit the faster ship types by replacing turreted points with missile points restricted to using the second slowest missile in game, which can't even hit a fast cruiser when their description states they should be used against smaller ships. One last point to CCP. You might want to change the Cruise Missile description from "Lifting-wing, jet-propelled guided missiles with heavy payloads." to "Jet-propelled guided missiles with heavy payloads.", as there's not much use for a lifting-wing** in space!!! The classic "I want my weapons to be the win button" post.
Christari Zuborov Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.01 14:02:00 - [37] Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 01/08/2007 14:03:40 Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth The arguments from turret fans are that at closer rangers, tracking speed plays a part and missiles don't have to contend with this. Thats true. Missiles have to contend with their opponents speed instead. While its true speed plays a part in tracking speed, it does not have the same direct relationship between speed/damage as it does with missiles. If i'm a turret user the worst time for my tracking speed is when an opponent as achieved an orbit around me (speed is proportional here, high speed orbits = bigger penalty). The penalty lessens as my opponents trajectory aligns itself with mine. This means that if my opponent is flying directly at me/away from me I don't have any tracking penalty at all. Compare this to a missile user. It doesn't matter if my opponent is flying at me, away from me, or around me, a missile user is penalised regardless if their opponent is moving at speed. The issue here intensifies in smaller ship combat where high speeds are more common. A ships velocity has 2 effects on a missile 1) there is a reduction in damage based on whether the target is going faster than the missile.(whilst illustrated as different, it is the closest thing missile users come to tracking). 2) Missile vs Target speed. If the target is going faster than the missile, the missile may simply never hit and chase its target until its flight time expires. (something turret users never have to contend with) I'd therefore suggest 3 changes Firstly, double the velocity of all missiles - the question of hitting the target (thats in range), should be one of 'when?' not 'if?' this is something a turret user never has to face as turret ammo is 'instant hit' Secondly - revisit the falloff damage scaling that missiles suffer when they hit targets at high veloicty/smaller sig radius. It makes sense they should hit for less against a fast moving inty, but given ships potential velocity, it seems over-nerfed in the current format. thirdly - revisit HAM fitting reqs. What is with HAM fittings being higher than Heavy missile launchers? this is completely out of whack compared to Railguns/blasters or artillary/autocannons. The part that kills me, is given my experience in military weaponry just how WRONG their lineup is. I realize comparing RL to a Sci-Fi game is pointless, but there's a point at which there has to be logic or, "Hey, I need another clip of 9mm for my laser pistol", would be perfectly acceptable.
Victor Valka Caldari Archon Industries	Posted - 2007.08.01 14:15:00 - [38] The page is flipped and a new chapter in EVE Online forum history begins. Amarr and Caldari have formed an alliance the likes of which have never been seen before! All to further their wicked goal of universal dominance. Their motto? "Today missiles, tomorrow - lasers!" How will Gallente and Minmatar forces survive the wave of whines to come? How will forums cope? Stay tuned! More in news at 11PM!
firewalker220	Posted - 2007.08.01 14:51:00 - [39] Inkeeping with RP, the damage types of exp and kin should be removed from missiles when fired by ammarians
Wizzkidy Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2007.08.01 14:53:00 - [40] Originally by: firewalker220 Inkeeping with RP, the damage types of exp and kin should be removed from missiles when fired by ammarians eh your pulling my leg I hope
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.08.01 16:08:00 - [41] Edited by: Ki Tarra on 01/08/2007 16:08:26 Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 01/08/2007 08:37:51 You said Quote: You train the skill called "Missile Projection", it's used to increase the speed of guided missiles to bring your missiles closer to the ship speed, but this doesn't do squat for unguided missiles, and that's the type of missile that HAMs are! I am sure that it effected Rockets and so on. Skill discription states "Skill at boosting missile bay propulsion systems and manipulating guided missiles' jet engines. 10% bonus to all missiles' maximum velocity per level." So it effects missile bay propulsion systems (unguided) and manipulating guided missiles. Yes - it effects both guided and unguided missiles. Or are you saying this skill is now broken? Quickfit shows that the skill effects unguided missiles, though anyone want to check ingame to see if anything has changed? Or did I imagine that pre nerf I was shooting jav torps hitting 249km? Yay! for whiners who don't know game mechanics! It is Guided Missile Precision, not Missile Projection that has no effect on Rockets, HAMs and Torps. So your HAM's will have a hard time with targets smaller than 125m. That's what painters are for. As for Rockets, you're not going to find alot of targets that are smaller than 20m anyways. Quote: No misfortune is so bad that whining about it won't make it worse
Hugh Ruka Caldari Free Traders	Posted - 2007.08.01 16:20:00 - [42] Originally by: Zeknichov I always read this thread as: Who cares about Caldari, but now that Amar* are using missiles they need to be fixed* This one is nice !!! LOLZ !!! Anyway, I am starting to see a trend where Amarr players do have 0 knowledge how missiles work yet that did not prevent them unleashing whine hell in nerf missile threads. Sands of time have shifted. Originally by: JP Beauregard The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.08.01 17:12:00 - [43] Originally by: Zeknichov I always read this thread as: Who cares about Caldari, but now that Amar* are using missiles they need to be fixed* That was the first thing that popped into my head; Caldari have been using missiles since day one, but now that the Amarr are using them, they should be made into WTFOWN just because they say so.
Thorgore Katana's Edge	Posted - 2007.08.01 17:30:00 - [44] Am I the only Gallente character that sees these changes as a reason he WANTS to cross-rain into Amarr? Who wouldn't want a weapon system that uses no cap and the best passive resists in the game with a rep system that uses the least cap as well? And to the OP, How well could you hit a ship going 4km/s with your lasers before?
Matroshka Crimson Squall Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.01 17:52:00 - [45] "Missiles need to be fixed if Amarr are going to be stuck with them..." It's really surprising to me how many people confined themselves to only using the split weapon Khanid ships. -------------
Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2007.08.01 17:57:00 - [46] I do agree, that missiles that are unguided should be faster... But hell, nobody actually cares. It seems to me that a heavy missile, that does less damage, with no guidance, should have either more flight time, or more max speed to fill up the extra space...
Christari Zuborov Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.01 18:35:00 - [47] Originally by: Thorgore Am I the only Gallente character that sees these changes as a reason he WANTS to cross-rain into Amarr? Who wouldn't want a weapon system that uses no cap and the best passive resists in the game with a rep system that uses the least cap as well? And to the OP, How well could you hit a ship going 4km/s with your lasers before? Quite well so long as that person was heading toward or away! It's a bit different with missiles, if the missile cannot at least match speeds, it won't hit. As for the comments of, "I read the title as who cares about Caldari, but now that Amarr uses them they'll need to be fixed.", that's just plain silly and putting words in my mouth. Everyone knows the Raven is the best PVE ship in the game, and that you could use several other missile boats for PVE as well. The Caldari already have a very legitimate turreted hard point with hybrid guns, and great ships to boot with those systems, for PVP. The Amarr are being told missile systems are a boost in comparison to lasers, and that's just not right, when you speak about 0.0 space, which is what I said in the original post.
Drizit Amarr Lonely out here Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.01 19:10:00 - [48] Originally by: Nicholas Barker also, you're armor tanking, you have nice webs and the ability to fit ab/mwds without sacrificing anything that's overly important.. Caldari don't. I see you have never flown an armor tanked ship then. YOU ARE VERY WRONG! Yes, we can fit AB/MWD at the expense of cap use which I believe is required for armor tanking which Caldari don't really need with many of their passive shield tanked ships. Also, with lows being used for shield rechargers, even more slots can be used by shield tanks than by any armor tanked ship. Armor tanks = lows only, Shield tanks = mids and lows. --
Zombie Network	Posted - 2007.08.01 19:40:00 - [49] Originally by: Tecam Hund The classic "I want my weapons to be the win button" post. How exactly to do with without weapons again? The whole point of weapons is that they ARE win buttons.
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.08.01 19:52:00 - [50] Originally by: Christari Zuborov The Caldari already have a very legitimate turreted hard point with hybrid guns, and great ships to boot with those systems, for PVP. I hope you're only talking about the Harpy/Eagle/Rokh, our only true snipers. . . The Moa and Ferox are plagued with the same split weapons issue that most of the Khanid ships have on TQ now. (I.e. we think we're turret ships, but we're not quite sure here). Both of em could use another turret hardpoint tbh. -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales
Cygnus Zhada Amarr UK Corp FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.01 20:12:00 - [51] The issue (for me) is in three things; - I chose Amarr for a reason, lasers. Changing half of the T2 ships to missile users may or may not hold from an RP POV but to me it sucks. - The bonuses mostly only work for short range missiles, which severely limits your options and tactics, it's also very easy to counter such a ship since you know it's exact range (close to nothing). This is not even considering that some missiles aren't affected by certain missile skills. - I can really see CCP sitting back now saying " there, we worked on Amarr, lets focus on something else for a while". While in fact they have done NOTHING for Amarr as such. Unrelated (but adding) to this is ofcourse the NOS nerf; lets nerf the ONE Amarr shipclass that could actually solo oh and while we're at it make the Tier2 BS even more useless than it already is with it's cap bonus. Next you'll see new amarr pilots not training for cap related skills at all since it indirectly bites them in the ass. Yes, I use lasers, please stop laughing in the back.
tikinish	Posted - 2007.08.01 20:43:00 - [52] Edited by: tikinish on 01/08/2007 20:50:00 did you just say what i thought you said?! if amarr is going to be stuck with them ?! WTF!!!! what about caldari, when we where stuck with them i heard NOTHING but NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF... take a break there;) but i see your point, what is needed is atleast a 6-8* speed increase, since some interceptors can come up to a speed of 20.000 m/s. and personally i don't think any ship would be able to fly faster then the fastest flying missile, i mean how useless are those engeneers?! they can make a plain fly fast but not a missile?! WTF ?!? makes NO sense. this would also fix the pvp problem they currently have.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr UK Corp FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.01 20:48:00 - [53] Caldari are the PVE gods, they also get bonuses to the longer range missiles AND they have ships with range bonuses. Amarr is the uhm... well... err... Yes, I use lasers, please stop laughing in the back.
tikinish	Posted - 2007.08.01 20:53:00 - [54] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Caldari are the PVE gods, they also get bonuses to the longer range missiles AND they have ships with range bonuses. Amarr is the uhm... well... err... why is it that this have any matter when speaking of pvp?! it's like saying, well we need more meat in burgers, and the oppesit side say's well you got alot of tomatos in your burger... O.o WTF do the one thing have to do with the other?!
E Vile	Posted - 2007.08.01 20:57:00 - [55] I agree, missles suck. I disagree with the fact you say "Since amarr are going to be stuck with them" Caldari ships have been stuck with them for way too long. I know caldari have some rail boats but these rail boats usually get range bonus.Caldari is not much for a DPS race. "The key to immortality is to first live a life worth remembering."
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.01 21:21:00 - [56] Originally by: tikinish Edited by: tikinish on 01/08/2007 20:50:00 did you just say what i thought you said?! if amarr is going to be stuck with them ?! WTF!!!! what about caldari, when we where stuck with them i heard NOTHING but NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF... take a break there;) but i see your point, what is needed is atleast a 6-8* speed increase, since some interceptors can come up to a speed of 20.000 m/s. and personally i don't think any ship would be able to fly faster then the fastest flying missile, i mean how useless are those engeneers?! they can make a plain fly fast but not a missile?! WTF ?!? makes NO sense. this would also fix the pvp problem they currently have. 8x speed increase would be a bit excessive; those interceptors you speak of have a speed tank and a 700% speed increase would make T2 light missiles an iwin vs small ships A 50% speed increase and a 33% flight time decrease for everything except torps would make a world of difference. Maybe increase ammo size to compensate. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.08.01 21:23:00 - [57] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: tikinish Edited by: tikinish on 01/08/2007 20:50:00 did you just say what i thought you said?! if amarr is going to be stuck with them ?! WTF!!!! what about caldari, when we where stuck with them i heard NOTHING but NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF... take a break there;) but i see your point, what is needed is atleast a 6-8* speed increase, since some interceptors can come up to a speed of 20.000 m/s. and personally i don't think any ship would be able to fly faster then the fastest flying missile, i mean how useless are those engeneers?! they can make a plain fly fast but not a missile?! WTF ?!? makes NO sense. this would also fix the pvp problem they currently have. 8x speed increase would be a bit excessive; those interceptors you speak of have a speed tank and a 700% speed increase would make T2 light missiles an iwin vs small ships A 50% speed increase and a 33% flight time decrease for everything except torps would make a world of difference. Maybe increase ammo size to compensate. nope, your wrong on one lvl. If the ship was still going faster than the explosion radius then it would still take no damage. even if the missile caught up. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP Quote: CCP posted a new dev blog, they are going to bring Nos in line with.....well....logic
Christari Zuborov Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.01 21:25:00 - [58] Originally by: E Vile I agree, missles suck. I disagree with the fact you say "Since amarr are going to be stuck with them" Caldari ships have been stuck with them for way too long. I know caldari have some rail boats but these rail boats usually get range bonus.Caldari is not much for a DPS race. It was a poor choice in title... for that I apologize, but I'd rather continue discussing the points rather than closing down a thread WITH good points because of this alone. I agree, I know I don't like hybrid t2 ammo for railguns... The turret traverse, range bonus, or cap reduction, or whatever leaves less than desired, but on top of that it also doesn't do that great of damage because railguns are restricted to kin/therm damaage while everyone tanks that. I have trained some Caldari ships because of the lack of availability in 0.0 of Amarr vessels. I have a Raven and a Harpy, and I find the Raven is only good in large groups. The Harpy seems best not being in your opponents combat range, and adequate from long distances. The best PVP ships are the ones that AREN'T using these standard technologies, but using something different to reduce your opponents ability to wage war. We see what happened to a numnber of those ships in this patch though :( Solo PVP mobiles AREN'T the issue, when it comes to that, differing mods should have adverse effects on different opponents. BUT all of the above is off topic from the point of this thread. The only reason why I bring up Caldari is while they're not very dominant, you have to admit they do have a greater number of adequate vessels for PVP than Amarr does. It also seems that the PVP vessels of choice for Caldari ships AREN'T missile boats. If CCP is wanting to give Amarr PVP missile boats then I guess that's a boost, but it doesn't seem right. When I first joined the game, about 2 months in I started noting differences in ships and strategies and I realized that Amarr wasn't on an even playing field. So I started asking in help chat different questions and I was told that even though I was Amarr, I could just train one of the other races and use their stuff if I found a shortfall in my race. Well yeah, duh, but what's the point?
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.01 21:32:00 - [59] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: tikinish Edited by: tikinish on 01/08/2007 20:50:00 did you just say what i thought you said?! if amarr is going to be stuck with them ?! WTF!!!! what about caldari, when we where stuck with them i heard NOTHING but NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF... take a break there;) but i see your point, what is needed is atleast a 6-8* speed increase, since some interceptors can come up to a speed of 20.000 m/s. and personally i don't think any ship would be able to fly faster then the fastest flying missile, i mean how useless are those engeneers?! they can make a plain fly fast but not a missile?! WTF ?!? makes NO sense. this would also fix the pvp problem they currently have. 8x speed increase would be a bit excessive; those interceptors you speak of have a speed tank and a 700% speed increase would make T2 light missiles an iwin vs small ships A 50% speed increase and a 33% flight time decrease for everything except torps would make a world of difference. Maybe increase ammo size to compensate. nope, your wrong on one lvl. If the ship was still going faster than the explosion radius then it would still take no damage. even if the missile caught up. Yes, that's true indeed. Since the missile support skills are pretty sucky - compare Warhead Upgrades to Surgical Strike, never mind Drone Interfacing - Target Navigation Prediction helps though, and it's only rank 2. Perhaps to compensate for the suckiness of WU, an advanced skill (Rank 5, required Target Nav V and WU IV) giving +10% explosion velocity per level? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Christari Zuborov Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.01 21:48:00 - [60] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: tikinish Edited by: tikinish on 01/08/2007 20:50:00 did you just say what i thought you said?! if amarr is going to be stuck with them ?! WTF!!!! what about caldari, when we where stuck with them i heard NOTHING but NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF... take a break there;) but i see your point, what is needed is atleast a 6-8* speed increase, since some interceptors can come up to a speed of 20.000 m/s. and personally i don't think any ship would be able to fly faster then the fastest flying missile, i mean how useless are those engeneers?! they can make a plain fly fast but not a missile?! WTF ?!? makes NO sense. this would also fix the pvp problem they currently have. 8x speed increase would be a bit excessive; those interceptors you speak of have a speed tank and a 700% speed increase would make T2 light missiles an iwin vs small ships A 50% speed increase and a 33% flight time decrease for everything except torps would make a world of difference. Maybe increase ammo size to compensate. nope, your wrong on one lvl. If the ship was still going faster than the explosion radius then it would still take no damage. even if the missile caught up. Yes, that's true indeed. Since the missile support skills are pretty sucky - compare Warhead Upgrades to Surgical Strike, never mind Drone Interfacing - Target Navigation Prediction helps though, and it's only rank 2. Perhaps to compensate for the suckiness of WU, an advanced skill (Rank 5, required Target Nav V and WU IV) giving +10% explosion velocity per level? Missiles should be speed tankable to nearly nill, but they shouldn't be out run except by the smallest and quickest of ships. That's where a lot of angst for me comes from, at least if you have a 10 missiles boats vs. 1 small ship, you can change his mind if you can hit him - you may not kill him - but you should be capable of changing his mind.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr UK Corp FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.01 21:58:00 - [61] My fear (apart from my anger about getting missiles) is range, it's as simple as that... range. Yes, I use lasers, please stop laughing in the back.
Matroshka Crimson Squall Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.01 22:01:00 - [62] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada My fear (apart from my anger about getting missiles) is range, it's as simple as that... range. Use the other ships for range? -------------
Cygnus Zhada Amarr UK Corp FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.01 22:03:00 - [63] Originally by: Matroshka Originally by: Cygnus Zhada My fear (apart from my anger about getting missiles) is range, it's as simple as that... range. Use the other ships for range? Yeeah ok, I'll switch a ship in space when we meet, just as easily as you can switch ammo types. Yes, I use lasers, please stop laughing in the back.
Onnawa Minmatar Alcohol Fueled Brutality X-PACT	Posted - 2007.08.01 22:34:00 - [64] The big misconception here is that no missile in Eve is unguided. If they were, you wouldn't need a target lock to tell them where to go...you would physically point your ship at your target and fire...(read "dumbfire" missiles as per the battleships and tank-killers of World War II....you had to physically point at your target.) That being said, there's not a thing wrong with Heavy Assaults. As a Minmatar I use them all the time on my heavier ships like the Cyclone or Hurricane. They're the perfect compliment for autocannons. As for the argument that it allows the enemy to predict where you're going to be (i.e. short range). Welcome to my world. You learn to adapt, and life goes on. There isn't one single viable long-range Minmatar ship. Artillery are good for sniping, but the very definition of sniping means one shot, then time to move on. While you can score a kill in a volley or two, after that it's time to leave. So most Minmatar ships live or die by either overwhelming speed or by tank. You don't get both, and you rarely get the tank on anything smaller than a battlecruiser. Everyone's proposed missile changes would leave one race at a disadvantage while boosting another. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what we're trying to do away with here? We already suffer a lot more than anyone would like to believe any time we go up against Caldari pilots because of the missiles everyone is so plainly saying are broken. We live or die by the transverse, and that's impossible with missiles. We have, however gotten quite good at what we do and what we were handed. Ask most PvPers what kind of tackler they'd like to have along....a good majority will say "Minmatar. They don't care if they die or not." Every race has it's extra nipple or two....learn to milk them for what they're worth. Caldari can't fit webs or scrams without sacrificing tank (and don't feel me that passive tank crap....carebears use that, not real pilots); Amarr are seriously under-DPSed (which the addition of missiles will help fix...you've got your mids free for AB/MWD...you'll get used to the shorter range); Minmatar are puppets at the hands of the Caldari and Gallente because of missiles and drones respectively; Gallente get the joys of hitting at extreme range for no damage or point-blank for tons (as long as they have webs fitted) with drones to fill the gaps. We all have our lots in life. Learn to accept them for what they are and use them to their best advantage. _____________________________________ I'm not a Pirate. I just have anger management issues.......and kleptomania.
Nicholas Barker MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2007.08.05 01:05:00 - [65] Originally by: Drizit Originally by: Nicholas Barker also, you're armor tanking, you have nice webs and the ability to fit ab/mwds without sacrificing anything that's overly important.. Caldari don't. I see you have never flown an armor tanked ship then. YOU ARE VERY WRONG! Yes, we can fit AB/MWD at the expense of cap use which I believe is required for armor tanking which Caldari don't really need with many of their passive shield tanked ships. Also, with lows being used for shield rechargers, even more slots can be used by shield tanks than by any armor tanked ship. Armor tanks = lows only, Shield tanks = mids and lows. I've flown plenty of amarr ships, although not tech2. you can still use midslots to rock **** with missiles due to your ability to stop a ship dead in its tracks, and your ability to catch up to it. Also, i have never passive tanked a caldari ship ever, i prefer using a nice active tank and i have used them very effectively. those low slot mods you talk about are not worth much on an active shield tank. They'll help abit, but about as much as a butterflys wings will influence a tornado. You're still at an advantage when it comes to solo or small gang pvp. I've been moaning for about a year for an armor tanking missile boat, and now i'm quite happy, although I'm training for other things atm so khanid ships will have to wait. ---

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