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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Cyzlaki Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD. 192	Posted - 2012.01.13 03:43:00 - [61] - Quote Tippia wrote: Cyzlaki wrote: You're wrong. Those stats don't matter unless you're trying to track tiny ships 100% of the time. No. They always matter when angular velocity is non-zero. Quote: Given a signature radius of a normal sized ship, the Talos tracks better.. The signature radius is not relevant for the comparison between turrets GÇö the Zealot (and ship B) track better. Do you want me to explain to you why? Nope. Now leave the thread
Aamrr 213	Posted - 2012.01.13 03:44:00 - [62] - Quote What is a "normal sized ship"? The Talos uses large guns, which gives it a 400m signature resolution. For its tracking to work "as advertised", that means shooting at stuff about the size of an apocalypse. But I get the impression that that's not the size you were referring to. What about AHACs? With the blaster tracking boost and the Talos's tracking bonus, I could see it working, but I don't have the data to know one way or the other.
Cyzlaki Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD. 192	Posted - 2012.01.13 03:44:00 - [63] - Quote Now that he's gone let's get back to the fact that the Talos is OP and has no trouble kiliing frigs. What have you popped with one? Me so far: Zealot Vaga Gila Falcon Drake Tornado Hurricane
Cyzlaki Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD. 192	Posted - 2012.01.13 03:46:00 - [64] - Quote Aamrr wrote: What is a "normal sized ship"? The Talos uses large guns, which gives it a 400m signature resolution. For its tracking to work "as advertised", that means shooting at stuff about the size of an apocalypse. But I get the impression that that's not the size you were referring to. What about AHACs? With the blaster tracking boost and the Talos's tracking bonus, I could see it working, but I don't have the data to know one way or the other. When any ship has a shield tank and MWD on (pretty much all PVP ships) their sigs are so large that the second part of the tracking formula barely makes a difference. In practical application, the Talos demonstrates it can track even frigs inside optimal range and has absolutely no problem hitting anything bigger.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 4339	Posted - 2012.01.13 03:48:00 - [65] - Quote Cyzlaki wrote: Now leave the thread No. Not as long as you keep misinforming other posters about how tracking works. Whether you what to know why or not, the fact remains: the Zealot you described tracks 2.7+ù better than the Talos. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs.
Cyzlaki Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD. 192	Posted - 2012.01.13 03:51:00 - [66] - Quote Tippia wrote: Cyzlaki wrote: Now leave the thread No. Not as long as you keep misinforming other posters about how tracking works. Whether you what to know why or not, the fact remains: the Zealot you described tracks 2.7+ù better than the Talos. Your theoretical BS has no relevance outside of EFT, as the Zealot has 1050 sig and the way I fly makes signature a non-issue in combat. Do you want me to tell you how to fly in PVP?
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Nation 574	Posted - 2012.01.13 03:53:00 - [67] - Quote Aamrr wrote: Forgive me, because I don't actually fly Gallente ships and I'm genuinely trying to learn something here. I understand that signature resolution and tracking are multiplied together in the turret accuracy formula, and for practical usage are combined to get the relevant number. I also know that the blasters and lasers being discussed here work in entirely different ranges, and a web or two can solve that problem without much issue -- nevermind the difficulty of maintaining transversal when you're inside blaster range. Is that all that's going on here? At the risk of ruining this fine debate, I would actually like to see the logic behind the arguments. Heh, alright. There's a few things: - MWD frigates at range (~20km) tend to get 2-3 volleyed at most despite high transversal. I think this is visible on one of my PVP videos. If it isn't, it'll be on an upcoming video (Amamake Fun 2, most likely). - AB frigates are (all things considered) relatively slow. Its generally pretty easy to pull range and nail them at range. - You can do the look-at and follow approach, but it doesn't work very well against frigates. Seems to work great against cruisers and BCs. - The Talos has a drone bay. I'll try to give up my beloved harpy for a little while and get some Talos action in... moar videos you know? :) -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 4339	Posted - 2012.01.13 03:58:00 - [68] - Quote Cyzlaki wrote: Your theoretical BS has no relevance outside of EFT GÇªwhich, funnily enough, makes it completely relevant to your incomplete EFT-based claim that the Talos track better just because it has a tracking speed of .105 compared to GÇ£onlyGÇ¥ .09 for the Zealot. You brought the EFT BS in and made a false claim because you didn't understand what the numbers meant. I'm correcting you. Live with it. The fact remains: the Zealot you described has 2.7+ù better tracking than the Talos you described. For the record, just so you have the actual numbers the next time you try to make a claim about which one is higher, your Talos tracks at .0002625 rad/s-+m; the Zealot tracks at .00072 rad/s-+m. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs.
Cyzlaki Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD. 192	Posted - 2012.01.13 04:06:00 - [69] - Quote Tippia wrote: Cyzlaki wrote: Your theoretical BS has no relevance outside of EFT GÇªwhich, funnily enough, makes it completely relevant to your incomplete EFT-based claim that the Talos track better just because it has a tracking speed of .105 compared to GÇ£onlyGÇ¥ .09 for the Zealot. You brought the EFT BS in and made a false claim because you didn't understand what the numbers meant. I'm correcting you. Live with it. The fact remains: the Zealot you described has 2.7+ù better tracking than the Talos you described. For the record, just so you have the actual numbers the next time you try to make a claim about which one is higher, your Talos tracks at .0002625 rad/s-+m; the Zealot tracks at .00072 rad/s-+m. I never mentioned EFT. You asked for data, I gave you the numbers from in-game. You don't know how to fly in EVE, what made you think your BS would fly here?
ADMIRALPLANET DOMINATOR Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD. 1	Posted - 2012.01.13 04:13:00 - [70] - Quote Cyzlaki's combat record - Ranked #1,636 Tippia's combat record - Ranked #185,750 Hmm I wonder who's information is more credible? Tippia's theory might be all well and good, but it simply doesn't translate out there on the field.

Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 4339	Posted - 2012.01.13 04:14:00 - [71] - Quote Cyzlaki wrote: I never mentioned EFT. You asked for data, I gave you the numbers from in-game. GÇªand made an EFT-warrior claim based on them: you compared numbers that are meaningless and incomparable on their own because they do not act alone. You reached a conclusion about which was the better number GÇö a conclusion that was incorrect because of this massive case of EFT-warrioring. Quote: what made you think your BS would fly here? The simple (and by you so so amply proven) fact that I know how tracking works and you don't. The fact remains: the Zealot tracks better, as does Ship B for a reason that you probably can't guess GÇö it is your claim to the contrary that is BS. If you ask nicely, I will show you why. ADMIRALPLANET DOMINATOR wrote: Hmm I wonder who's information is more credible? Tippia's theory might be all well and good, but it simply doesn't translate out there on the field. Simple: mine, because his information and his initial claim is of a theoretical nature and lack an important factor in that theory. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs.
Cyzlaki Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD. 192	Posted - 2012.01.13 04:17:00 - [72] - Quote Yawn, call me when you fly a Talos. Until you do, you haven't proven anything.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 4341	Posted - 2012.01.13 04:19:00 - [73] - Quote Cyzlaki wrote: Yawn, call me when you fly a Talos. Ok. So do you want me to explain tracking to you and why the higher of your two numbers actually represents slower tracking? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs.
Mister Kwong State War Academy Caldari State 0	Posted - 2012.01.13 04:19:00 - [74] - Quote Ah hell. I'll bite just so you two can stop bickering. Please explain to me Tippia and prettend I look as pretty as Czylaki :)
Cyzlaki Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD. 192	Posted - 2012.01.13 04:21:00 - [75] - Quote Tippia wrote: Cyzlaki wrote: Yawn, call me when you fly a Talos. Ok. So do you want me to explain tracking to you and why the higher of your two numbers actually represents slower tracking? I'm sure your 38 kills from several years ago provided you with a wealth of practical PVP knowledge, making you an authority on this topic.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 4341	Posted - 2012.01.13 04:23:00 - [76] - Quote Mister Kwong wrote: Ah hell. I'll bite just so you two can stop bickering. Please explain to me Tippia and prettend I look as pretty as Czylaki :) The tracking formula is: Chance to hit = 0.5^[(angular_v/tracking +ù sig_res/sig_rad)-¦ + (max(0, range - optimal) / falloff)-¦] There are two parts to this, each indicated by its parenthesized group. The goal here is to get the CTH as close to 100% as possible. This is done by reducing both terms within the brackets to 0: 0.5^(0+0) = 1, so as a result, you want everything as low as possible. The second group is the part dealing with range GÇö it isn't particularly interesting here and simply calculates how far into falloff you are. The first one is more interesting since it's the actual tracking part of the formula, so let's look at that one more closely. angular_v/tracking +ù sig_res/sig_rad Note that, here too, we have two groups. One deals with the turret's tracking compared to the target's movement (angular velocity is pitted against tracking speed); the other deals with the turret's ability to track small targets (signature resolution is pitted against signature radius). Of the variables involved, two belong to the turret and two belong to the target. Since we're comparing the turrets, we normalise all target factors to 1. We can do this because the turret and the target are completely separate GÇö there are no interaction effects between the variables involved. This gives us a tracking portion that is 1/tracking +ù sigres/1 GÇö that's how well your turret tracks a target before we actually add the target itself to the equation. So what is the effective tracking of your turret? Well, let's move those factors around so we collect all the turret attributes together into one group that we can then compare against the target, once it is introduced: 1/tracking +ù sigres/1 = 1/tracking +ù sigres = 1/(tracking/sigres) And there we go: the effective tracking of a turret is, quite simply, tracking / sigres. The higher the sigres, the slower the gun effectively tracks. So if we have two guns that both track 1 rad/s, but where one has a sigres of 125 (i.e. it's a medium turret), whereas the other has a sigres of 400 (a large turret), the first one has an effective tracking of 1/125 = 0.008; the second one has an effective tracking of 1/400 = 0.0025. Even though both have the same number in the tracking speed field on their info sheets, the medium turret actually tracks 3.2+ù better due to the lower signature resolution. SoGÇª time to get back to the numbers provided: Talos: 0.105 rad/s, 400m sig res. Effective tracking .00026 rad/s-+m. Zealot: 0.09 rad/s, 125m sig res. Effective tracking .00072 rad/s-+m. The Zealot tracks ~2.7+ù better. Hell, let's look at those other numbers he then invented: Ship A has 0.60 Ship B has 0.03 Which one has better tracking? Answer: ship B, because by a curious coincidence, it uses small turrets (sigres 40m) for an effective tracking of .00075 rad/s-+m, whereas ship A uses XL turrets (sigres 1,000m) for an effective tracking of .00060 rad/s-+m. Cyzlaki wrote: I'm sure your 38 kills from several years ago provided you with a wealth of practical PVP knowledge, making you an authority on this topic. Actually, it's my third-grade maths from decades ago and many years of comparative methods experience that makes me an authority on the topic. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs.
Cyzlaki Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD. 192	Posted - 2012.01.13 04:28:00 - [77] - Quote How many ships have you killed with a Talos again?
DarkAegix Acetech Systems 774	Posted - 2012.01.13 04:31:00 - [78] - Quote I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this thread.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 4340	Posted - 2012.01.13 04:32:00 - [79] - Quote Cyzlaki wrote: How many ships have you killed with a Talos again? GÇªwhich is relevant to the theoretical claim you madeGÇª how, exactly? Just face it: your comparison of turret stats was wrong. You came to an incorrect conclusion because you didn't understand what you were doing. It's ok. You can still shoot people in your Talos. You just can't claim that it tracks better than a Zealot any more. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs.
Cyzlaki Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD. 192	Posted - 2012.01.13 04:34:00 - [80] - Quote I'm sure saying the Talos has bad tracking when you haven't flown one makes everyone take you seriously

Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 4340	Posted - 2012.01.13 04:35:00 - [81] - Quote Cyzlaki wrote: I'm sure saying the Talos has bad tracking Good thing no-one is saying that, then. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs.
Cyzlaki Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD. 192	Posted - 2012.01.13 04:36:00 - [82] - Quote Tippia wrote: Cyzlaki wrote: How many ships have you killed with a Talos again? GÇªwhich is relevant to the theoretical claim you madeGÇª how, exactly? Just face it: your comparison of turret stats was wrong. You came to an incorrect conclusion because you didn't understand what you were doing. It's ok. You can still shoot people in your Talos. You just can't claim that it tracks better than a Zealot any more. I made no theoretical claim. You brought the theory into it. I bring practical application and experience to the discussion, you **** about with numbers without even playing the game, thinking looking at sheets gives you accurate data rather than going out there and shooting stuff. It's OK, we know you're not relevant in this discussion, continue to post about how much you don't know though.
Cyzlaki Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD. 192	Posted - 2012.01.13 04:37:00 - [83] - Quote If you haven't flown the ship I don't see how you can claim to make a relevant argument or in fact claim to make any educated remark about it at all. Just face it: you are irrelevant.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 4341	Posted - 2012.01.13 04:41:00 - [84] - Quote Cyzlaki wrote: I made no theoretical claim. Yes you did: GÇ£Talos large neutrons track better than a zealot's medium pulse at the same goddamn range and with twice the DPS.GÇ¥ You then provided the theoretical numbers for those. The simple fact of it is that you were wrong. You can wave your wounded epeen around as much as you like and try to dismiss your error by introducing the (equally incorrect) red herring of my in-game activities GÇö it doesn't change this fact. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs.
Cyzlaki Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD. 192	Posted - 2012.01.13 04:44:00 - [85] - Quote Tippia wrote: Cyzlaki wrote: I made no theoretical claim. Yes you did: GÇ£Talos large neutrons track better than a zealot's medium pulse at the same goddamn range and with twice the DPS.GÇ¥ You then provided the theoretical numbers for those. The simple fact of it is that you were wrong. You can wave your wounded epeen around as much as you like and try to dismiss your error by introducing the (equally incorrect) red herring of my in-game activities GÇö it doesn't change this fact. No I provided the real numbers for those and if you take your little formula and ignore the irrelevant parts of it you will see that in the real world, the Talos has better tracking.
Corina Jarr Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built 501	Posted - 2012.01.13 04:51:00 - [86] - Quote I've seen a Talos pop to a Hawk. And a Vengence. And a Cane. And a Falcon. Guess all those are OP too... (ok, I'll accept the Falcon on that). Just remembered, I saw one die to a Purifier today, was quite hilarious (seeing the oversized gun BC die to the oversized missile frig).
Renarla 7	Posted - 2012.01.13 04:51:00 - [87] - Quote I'm interested in your Talos fit, Liang. I'm playing around in EFT and getting some decent numbers, but I checked out your KB, and while to my dismay you have yet to lose a Talos, I did notice on your KMs that your using Ion Blasters, which means I'm already off as I was thinking surely Neutrons since they're not a problem to fit at all.
DarkAegix Acetech Systems 774	Posted - 2012.01.13 04:53:00 - [88] - Quote Tippia wrote: Cyzlaki wrote: I made no theoretical claim. Yes you did: GÇ£Talos large neutrons track better than a zealot's medium pulse at the same goddamn range and with twice the DPS.GÇ¥ You then provided the theoretical numbers for those. Why is everyone arguing about tracking, anyway? Just use pyfa or EFT's graphing function. A Talos with one magstab and mostly neutron blasters will deal 800dps with CN AM at 5km when the target is at a 90 degree angle, with 50m/s speed and a 125 signature. That's not a deal-breaker for the Talos. The Talos will win the brawl. It's faster, has ~60% higher dps (With tracking & sig factored in), and has ~27% less ehp. Talos may not have better effective tracking, but it does have much, much better effective dps. Enough to take on any ship size. Dual webs & drones give the Talos greater protection against frigates than the Zealot could dream of.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 4342	Posted - 2012.01.13 04:57:00 - [89] - Quote Cyzlaki wrote: No I provided the real numbers for those and if you take your little formula and ignore the irrelevant parts of it you will see that in the real world, the Talos has better tracking. No. In the ~~real~~ virtual world, the Zealot will still have better tracking because those GÇ£irrelevant partsGÇ¥ I (supposedly) ignore are not actually irrelevant, and I'm not ignoring them GÇö I'm normalising them to make it possible to compare two different turrets. That's why the numbers you provided are theoretical: because they ignore the full scope of what's going on. Alone, they mean nothing. On their own, they cannot be compared. It's when you add them in with the rest that the truth of the matter comes out: a higher number means nothing because it is then modified by other numbers GÇö in this case, it is reduced by a much higher number, and ends up being smaller than what you're comparing it to. You were wrong, but so what? Why are you taking it so hard? It happens. Just go GÇ£oh hey, yeah, I forgot about the size factor GÇö quite rightGÇªGÇ¥ and go on with your life knowing that the Talos has its own set of advantages. The Zealot tracks better for rather obvious reasons GÇö why is this such a sore point for you? DarkAegix wrote: Why is everyone arguing about tracking, anyway? Well, it started with his claim that large turrets tracked better than medium turrets, which I disputed, and then he got really really upset over this fact for some reasonGÇª vOv GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs.
Jask Avan Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.01.13 05:00:00 - [90] - Quote This thread is almost as sad as the New Year's day death threat guy.



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