GǪvery OP, except that it dies very easily and doesn't do much damage against many targets.

it kills everything before it dies and does more damage that any other subcap

No.

actually yes.

and if u die u just use ur super fast speed and align time to warp.

Actually, no, because it dies if something sneezes at it, because it has all the normal Gallente weaknesses, and because it most definitely doesn't do the most damage of any subcap.
Yes wellGǪ that's the pod you're talking about (which doesn't have Gǣsuper fast speedGǥ). It doesn't particularly affect the effectiveness of the Talos.

Actually no, the ship has the speed and agility of a HAC and the damage of a gank hype.

It has the EHP of a HAC too

Actually no, the ship has the speed and agility of a HAC and the damage of a gank hype. It has the EHP of a HAC too so it definitely lasts longer than a sneeze, usually more than enough time to kill whatever is shooting at it. It's clear you haven't flown it and don't know what you're talking about.

GǪso not even close to the most damaging of any subcap.
You need to learn how to fit your HACs.

Oh, and the reason things won't die is because you're using large blasters. They're very easy to avoid.

GǪso not even close to the most damaging of any subcap.
You need to learn how to fit your HACs.

Oh, and the reason things won't die is because you're using large blasters. They're very easy to avoid.

Come to Amamake and I'll show you the error of your ways. The Talos is... surprising. :)

Talos large neutrons track better than a zealot's pulse lasers at the same goddamn range and with twice the DPS.

Not really. It does exactly what you expect it to doGǪ

GǪwhich is a far cry from what the OP thinks.

No, it doesn't really do what I expected it to at first glance.

L2play

Adjust your expectations then. It does what I thought it would do. vOv.
L2math.

What tracking speed does your pulse Zealot have?
What tracking speed does your blaster Talos have?

Adjust your expectations then. It does what I thought it would do. vOv.
L2math.

What tracking speed does your pulse Zealot have?
What tracking speed does your blaster Talos have?

You seem to be saying exactly what I thought it would do, Tippia.

You tell me and I'll tell you why you're wrong.

So you would say that a Talos would lose to a Cane right?

Would this be a bad time to bring up the fact that while the Talos does use blasters (which give it good tracking) and has a tracking bonus (which gives it better tracking still), this still doesn't make up for the fact that it's using large guns, which have a poor signature resolution?

That said, the Talos would totally rip apart that Hurricane. The trouble isn't BCs, it's tinier stuff.

I'm saying that the OP is severely overstating his case since he's saying things that simply aren't true (viz. tracking comparison, damage output).

It's a good ship. It doesn't do what the OP claims.
No. You made the comparison; you provide the data. Can't provide the data? Well, toughGǪ there goes your claim.

Talos: 0.105, 1300
Zealot: 0.09, 525

No, I actually expected Tippia to make that comment when discussing tracking. I assure you, however, that the Talos has no trouble killing frigates.

GǪwhich means that the Zealot tracks 2.7+ù better.

Again, go back and have a look at how the tracking formula actually works.
Ok, colour me intrigued. Fit?

LOL just outed yourself as a moron. I rest my case.

Ship A has 0.60
Ship B has 0.03

Which one has better tracking?

Depends on the sig resolution of the respective guns.

Do you want me to explain the tracking formula for you?

AHAHAHA no. Ship A has the better tracking. I rest my case.

No, because it still depends on the sig resolution of the respective guns. On those two numbers alone, the question cannot be answered.

Again, do you want me to explain the tracking formula for you?

No, I actually expected Tippia to make that comment when discussing tracking. I assure you, however, that the Talos has no trouble killing frigates.

-Liang

Ed: It could probably be held down by a 10km/s Ares at 50km. Just as anything else. :P

You are fighting too much against noobs, this is why you feel so pro.
You know, noobs don-¦t really know how tracking works. This is why they are happily turning on their mwd to get all that shiny speed. However, with that signature bloom they are getting the signature of a BC (for frigates, with cruisers this is far worse), which is -as was already mentioned- too much against large guns. An AB frigate or cruiser would kick your ass.

mwd is for pve, in pvp you use afterburners.

Do it, and then explain some ways in which a ship might mitigate having 400/125 worse tracking. :)

Wow this guy's a bonehead.

You are fighting too much against noobs, this is why you feel so pro.
You know, noobs don-¦t really know how tracking works. This is why they are happily turning on their mwd to get all that shiny speed. However, with that signature bloom they are getting the signature of a BC (for frigates, with cruisers this is far worse), which is -as was already mentioned- too much against large guns. An AB frigate or cruiser would kick your ass.

mwd is for pve, in pvp you use afterburners.

Sure, but that's not what he's saying, now is it?

He's simply comparing tracking speeds, which only tells half of the story.
GǪwho, unlike you, understands how tracking works. Do you want me to explain it to you? Or would you like to tone your attitude down a notch so you don't look like the complete idiot you are when someone else asks and I demonstrate why your numbers show the exact opposite of what your ignorant ass think they do?

The game has changed bub

The tracking formula hasn't, and it still makes that Zealot track 2.7+ù better than the Talos. Do you want me to explain to you why?

No, but you could explain why theoretical knowledge is better than practical knowledge?

It isn't, but that doesn't particularly matter. The problem is that this poor fellow is making incorrect claims due to his ignorance of the mechanic, and thinking himself greatly informed for doing so.

I don't particularly care for being called a bonehead for understanding something he has undeniably no clue about.

You know full well that his comparison is entirely inaccurate. You also know that I know how to mitigate for his error. It's a rather pointless distraction from the simple fact that he doesn't understand how tracking works and why his comparison fails.

Ok well I think we can both agree that *I* know how the math behind eve works, at least reasonably well. And *I* am telling you that the practical application is a bit closer to his assertions than yours.

What I'm trying to point out is that both of you are making exactly the same argument from different perspectives.

Mad cuz you bad

This whole time you have assumed I do not know about signature radius and resolution

GǪbecause you demonstrated that you quite obviously don't, otherwise you wouldn't have made such an utterly moronic claim as saying the Zealot tracked worse than the Talos; calling me a moron when I corrected you; and Gǣresting [your] caseGǥ when I told you that it couldn't be determined by tracking numbers alone.

It's not an assumption when you so willingly demonstrate your ignorance as a fact.

By the way, in your example, ship B has the better tracking. Do you know why? Or do you want me to tell you how tracking works?

You're wrong. Those stats don't matter unless you're trying to track tiny ships 100% of the time.

Given a signature radius of a normal sized ship, the Talos tracks better..

No. They always matter when angular velocity is non-zero.
The signature radius is not relevant for the comparison between turrets GÇö the Zealot (and ship B) track better.
Do you want me to explain to you why?

What is a "normal sized ship"? The Talos uses large guns, which gives it a 400m signature resolution. For its tracking to work "as advertised", that means shooting at stuff about the size of an apocalypse.

But I get the impression that that's not the size you were referring to. What about AHACs? With the blaster tracking boost and the Talos's tracking bonus, I could see it working, but I don't have the data to know one way or the other.

Now leave the thread

No. Not as long as you keep misinforming other posters about how tracking works.

Whether you what to know why or not, the fact remains: the Zealot you described tracks 2.7+ù better than the Talos.

Forgive me, because I don't actually fly Gallente ships and I'm genuinely trying to learn something here. I understand that signature resolution and tracking are multiplied together in the turret accuracy formula, and for practical usage are combined to get the relevant number.

I also know that the blasters and lasers being discussed here work in entirely different ranges, and a web or two can solve that problem without much issue -- nevermind the difficulty of maintaining transversal when you're inside blaster range.

Is that all that's going on here? At the risk of ruining this fine debate, I would actually like to see the logic behind the arguments.

Your theoretical BS has no relevance outside of EFT

GǪwhich, funnily enough, makes it completely relevant to your incomplete EFT-based claim that the Talos track better just because it has a tracking speed of .105 compared to GǣonlyGǥ .09 for the Zealot.

You brought the EFT BS in and made a false claim because you didn't understand what the numbers meant. I'm correcting you. Live with it. The fact remains: the Zealot you described has 2.7+ù better tracking than the Talos you described.

For the record, just so you have the actual numbers the next time you try to make a claim about which one is higher, your Talos tracks at .0002625 rad/s-+m; the Zealot tracks at .00072 rad/s-+m.

I never mentioned EFT. You asked for data, I gave you the numbers from in-game.

what made you think your BS would fly here?

Hmm I wonder who's information is more credible? Tippia's theory might be all well and good, but it simply doesn't translate out there on the field.

Yawn, call me when you fly a Talos.

Ok. So do you want me to explain tracking to you and why the higher of your two numbers actually represents slower tracking?

Ah hell. I'll bite just so you two can stop bickering. Please explain to me Tippia and prettend I look as pretty as Czylaki :)

I'm sure your 38 kills from several years ago provided you with a wealth of practical PVP knowledge, making you an authority on this topic.

How many ships have you killed with a Talos again?

I'm sure saying the Talos has bad tracking

GǪwhich is relevant to the theoretical claim you madeGǪ how, exactly?

Just face it: your comparison of turret stats was wrong. You came to an incorrect conclusion because you didn't understand what you were doing. It's ok. You can still shoot people in your Talos. You just can't claim that it tracks better than a Zealot any more.

I made no theoretical claim.

Yes you did: GÇ£Talos large neutrons track better than a zealot's medium pulse at the same goddamn range and with twice the DPS.GÇ¥ You then provided the theoretical numbers for those.

The simple fact of it is that you were wrong. You can wave your wounded epeen around as much as you like and try to dismiss your error by introducing the (equally incorrect) red herring of my in-game activities GÇö it doesn't change this fact.

Yes you did: GÇ£Talos large neutrons track better than a zealot's medium pulse at the same goddamn range and with twice the DPS.GÇ¥ You then provided the theoretical numbers for those.

No I provided the real numbers for those and if you take your little formula and ignore the irrelevant parts of it you will see that in the real world, the Talos has better tracking.

Why is everyone arguing about tracking, anyway?

Now you will notice at first he reduced both the angular AND the sig res to one.

Assuming the angular is 0 (straight line engagement)

Zealot: 0/0.09 x 125/1000 = 0.011
Talos: 0/0.10 x 400/1000 = 0.042

I suppose I shall quickly provide some proof to my claim so we can move on. Now for a real explanation let's take Tippia's little formula. Now you will notice at first he reduced both the angular AND the sig res to one. Meaning he is comparing the tracking when the target is at a high angle AND when the size of the ship is 42 times smaller than a Rookie ship. No wonder the medium pulse performed better. Let's apply some real world numbers. Assuming the angular is 0 (straight line engagement) and the sig res is 1000 (as the Zealot sig res with MWD is 1050, we'll use 1000 as a nice normal ship size)

Zealot: 0/0.09 x 125/1000 = 0.011

Talos: 0/0.105 x 400/1000 = 0.042

And you will quickly see why Tippia is now being outed as a liar, using biased data to skew results to his favor. Not only does he not even fly the ship this thread is about, he also lies to you with numbers.

IZealot:[/b] 0/0.09 x 125/1000 = 0.011

Talos: 0/0.105 x 400/1000 = 0.042

woot, talos OP thread before the null buff \o/

afaik thats the ammo you load on a shield talos and that is what making it "OP"


so....

zealot really??

Is the talos that much better than the tornado?

Erm...How does zero divided and multiplied by anything manage to not be zero?

Zealot: 0/0.09 x 125/1000 = 0.011

Talos: 0/0.105 x 400/1000 = 0.042

And you will quickly see why Tippia is now being outed as a liar, using biased data to skew results to his favor. Not only does he not even fly the ship this thread is about, he also lies to you with numbers.

If you want to do it that way.
Talos = 0.4
Zealot = 0.125

Same result.

So in the end (apologies for the 0 borking the math) you see that saying the Zealot tracks a non-existent ship at 1.0 angular velocity better than a Talos is irrelevant and Tippia was lying.

I think we can move on now. Blame Tippia for creating the dispute with his ****** math and irrelevant opinions. We got there in the end.

So the Talos does indeed track better than a Zealot, does over twice the DPS, similar speeds, has a drone bay, more EHP and kills most anything before it takes a noticable amount of damage.

So the Talos does indeed track better than a Zealot.

So in the end (apologies for the 0 borking the math) you see that saying the Zealot tracks a non-existent ship at 1.0 angular velocity better than a Talos is irrelevant and Tippia was lying.

Why are we still focusing on ~numbers~ when we should be talking about ~ships and modules~?

The only thing we learned is you can't do math... twice.

And Tippia's math is correct. Mathematically, (and presumably in game) the Zealot has better tracking. The hard part is using in game numbers... as far as I know, the game does not display your angular velocity in real time... or at all.

What it doesn't have is better damage projection. Even a 50% hit of the Talos will outdo a 100% hit of the Zealot.


Anyway, in the end its up to fitting and skills (both EVE and player).

comparing armor hacs to shield tier3 bc is kinda pointelss really...
did you really have to crunch all them numbers for 3 pages to get to that conclusion?

anyways,
can you do a tornado talos comparison for me please?

cause i cant use large t2 AC/Blasters yet, i am getting both anyway just want to see which one should i get first.

Posting in a Tippia - Liang warthread.

10/10 would read again

It's incorrect so far as comparing a Zealot hitting nothing that exists in game at a 1.0 angular.

EFT doesn't take piloting into account (both bad as good), good pilots will kill bad ones even when flying setups that shouldn't work. The Talos is indeed surprisingly decent if flown right but my personal love boat is a nano Naga with 45k EHP. While it has obvious flaws it's fun to make it work anyway. On paper it's very limited in use, in practise you can make it work if you're aware of both your as the opponent's pros and cons.

See above why it doesn't matter whether it exists or not GÇö the result is the same regardless of the ship stats and (non-zero) angular velocity.
It is always correct.

Again, the Talos sports superior range, damage and tracking to the Naga.

As you will see if you consult my results with a non-zero angular, the Talos has better results when using real-game numbers and not arbitrary ones.

No. It has a higher result, which is actually worse, due to how the chance-to-hit equation works. You want the terms in the CTH formula to be zero, or as close to as possible.

As it happens, the Talos is worse by a factor of 2.7.

[quote=Corina Jarr][quote=Cyzlaki]
I had arrive3d at that conclusion on page 1. It was only one idiot saying otherwise. Anyways as for your Tornado tracking. .062 vs .038 buddy. Although the Talos outdamages it (and everything else) by a fair margin and at similar ranges.

And DRONES. You can't emphasize that enough really.

-Liang

No, the higher the tracking the better.

Drones are obvious and so is tracking but it doesn't have the superior range unless you start fooling around with faction fits to lower cpu. Naga has a surprising combo of EHP and speed that makes it work in a kiting fit. Would you pit them against eachother the Naga would win.

Drones are obvious and so is tracking but it doesn't have the superior range unless you start fooling around with faction fits to lower cpu. Naga has a surprising combo of EHP and speed that makes it work in a kiting fit. Would you pit them against eachother the Naga would win.

Ineresting...
i like the part where you say a naga has better speed than the talos the most...
please share that fit of yours that makes the shield talos so inferior.

Again, the Talos sports superior range, damage and tracking to the Naga.

Learn to read, I said COMBO of speed and EHP. I'm waiting for mr. "lulz Talos wins EZ" and then we'll have a look.

so the combo of being slower and having more ehp makes it better at kiting?

You're trying very hard, in a straight up fight (per what I stated) the combination of EHP and DPS for the naga works out better than for the Talos, tracking is not an issue in these fights as the Naga can pull range and while doing so forces the Talos to MWD. There is one situation where the Talos could get a victory but I'm waiting to see if Mr "Talos wins EZ" is capable of thinking that one up, as it's very unrealistic.

As long as you don't do the "talos pilot is uber and the Naga pilot is a moron who made a mistake" the Talos will not win.

I am simply having fun with you. cause you clearly cant (or havent) fly either one and dont know what you are talking about

Would it get a higher number if we were warring against each other?

Of course, I also value my life.

I'm sure you do, go fetch some numbers.

just proved my point right there tyvm =p

Contrary to popular belief, killing clueless carebears (as you seem to do) isn't the same as PVPing against people who know what they're doing.

so what i do is killing clueless carebears, interesting...
and what you do is either have no combat record or that it is so terrible you have to post on an alt to hide it

Yup, you do. Nothing wrong with this ofcourse but it's not exactly high quality targets, now is it.

All 3 of those links are broken.

so you have no combat experience what so ever. dont fly the ships you are talking about, which prettty much makes your argument invalid.

then you go and look me up on bc and somehow get the idea that all i do is kill mindless carebears, which shows how ignorant you are.

You're broken

So two ships with a thousand dps each vs nano boats that have 20K ehp if they are lucky and your calling for a nerf.

Your not making a convincing argument.

How can you tell, this is a clean char.



Show me the kills you made the last 3 months that weren't retardo/PVE fit and/or obvious carebears.

Who are you?

Anyway


Yeah pretty much makes HAC's irrelevant outside of AHAC fleets due to how easily they're popped while being worth twice that of a Talos.

Okok i give up, I tried to make a point but then someone countered me so now I'm back pedalling

OK so people aren't going to believe it's good until it's already been used extensively. I see disbelief is the default position in EVE when you tell anyone pretty much anything so I bid you all a good day. Bye o/

OK so people aren't going to believe it's good until it's already been used extensively. I see disbelief is the default position in EVE when you tell anyone pretty much anything so I bid you all a good day. Bye o/

on a side note here's the ships whole life cycle-
They hatch as navy comets and feed on serpentis rats till there are ready for there first molt. After they shed they begin feeding on shadow spawns, to fatten up for the winter. After a whole summer of eating they are now Brutixs plump and ready for hibernation. As the weather warms they come out from hi sec, with a new found taste for blood. After feeding on players for the spring they shed and become Talos's and begin looking for a mate. buy late fall if all gos well for the Talos it will find a mate. Like the pilot fish mating is for life and bonds the two for ever as a Megathron.
now that we all know a little more about the life cycle of the Talos we can all appreciate its Majesty a little more.

The buy far most OP thing about the Talos is that its beautiful. Those Gallente sons of bitches made a ship the just drips Majesty. I mean so meany Gallente ships look like a spoiled pile of quivering space meat. But this ship with its smooth transitions and sweet thrusters......

Tippia doesn't actually play Eve, she's too busy playing the forums.

1440DPS with Void

And here I was, all of these years thinking that Tippia and Liang were the same person


Well cockadoodledoo to me and my moustache

hurr the tracking is so bad hurr angular of 1 which never happens and signature radius of 1 which never happens durr

Just think about it, instead of having Cheerios in the morning you could treat yourself a delicious bowl of Blastos. Yummy!

goddamnit I opened up this thread expecting a Tippia vs Liang face-off.


was almost satisfied

Same, but that felt good anyway.

As a frigate pilot, this thread interests me greatly. I was unable to beat a Talos multiple times (in practice fights) with a Harbinger, but I haven't tried to tackle one yet. MWDs are out of the question, but I wonder... can I do it in an AB Rifter, or do I have to pull my Malediction out?

Same, but that felt good anyway.

As a frigate pilot, this thread interests me greatly. I was unable to beat a Talos multiple times (in practice fights) with a Harbinger, but I haven't tried to tackle one yet. MWDs are out of the question, but I wonder... can I do it in an AB Rifter, or do I have to pull my Malediction out?

Same, but that felt good anyway.

As a frigate pilot, this thread interests me greatly. I was unable to beat a Talos multiple times (in practice fights) with a Harbinger, but I haven't tried to tackle one yet. MWDs are out of the question, but I wonder... can I do it in an AB Rifter, or do I have to pull my Malediction out?

confirming that i too, am a talos ***.

Setup i got atm is (since i died a few times already its no longer top secret):

[Talos, New Setup 1]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Faint Warp Disruptor I

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator II


Hobgoblin II x5


Its the fuckin' busniess.

CCP made Talos so good full rack T2 neutrons hits 1000 DPS EZ then you can even slap Null in it and get as much range as autocannons with better DPS over range. Why they make this so OP its EZ FOTM until a nerf oh wait they buffing it again LOL Did I mention it also does 1.8k/s and aligns in 6.5?

Zealot:[/b] 0/0.09 x 125/1000 = 0.011

Talos: 0/0.105 x 400/1000 = 0.042

Blastos actual performance doesn't matter anymore, it's awesome just for of the pure entertainment value it created out of this thread .

Just think about it, instead of having Cheerios in the morning you could treat yourself a delicious bowl of Blastos. Yummy!

Could even make commercials for it.

Here comes the morning,
Having a hard time darling?
A bowl of Blastos a day,
Keeps your forum boringness away!
BlastosGäó, BlastosGäó!*

* Do not keep within kid's reach. Prolonged use of BlastosGäó may cause skin irritation, hair loss, sterility, ship and capsule early removal, projectile diarrhea, and anal leakage

gallente boats are amazing in general if you know what your doing.

The buy far most OP thing about the Talos is that its beautiful. Those Gallente sons of bitches made a ship the just drips Majesty. I mean so meany Gallente ships look like a spoiled pile of quivering space meat. But this ship with its smooth transitions and sweet thrusters...... I mean dam, I'm normally in to human females but I'd tap it.


on a side note here's the ships whole life cycle-
They hatch as navy comets and feed on serpentis rats till there are ready for there first molt. After they shed they begin feeding on shadow spawns, to fatten up for the winter. After a whole summer of eating they are now Brutixs plump and ready for hibernation. As the weather warms they come out from hi sec, with a new found taste for blood. After feeding on players for the spring they shed and become Talos's and begin looking for a mate. buy late fall if all gos well for the Talos it will find a mate. Like the pilot fish mating is for life and bonds the two for ever as a Megathron.
now that we all know a little more about the life cycle of the Talos we can all appreciate its Majesty a little more.

I'm interested in your Talos fit, Liang. I'm playing around in EFT and getting some decent numbers, but I checked out your KB, and while to my dismay you have yet to lose a Talos, I did notice on your KMs that your using Ion Blasters, which means I'm already off as I was thinking surely Neutrons since they're not a problem to fit at all.

though tbh this is the fit i have been using and am rather happy with it...
i use a cpu implant for the fit
[Talos, Talos fit]

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Warp Disruptor II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Hornet EC-300 x5

lacks named MWD?

I wont tell you guys the dps i get out of that talos, but 1700 is a big number.

To call the Tippia a troll would be a misnomer.

Yes, especially since I don't troll.

I ask people questions about their presumptions, and some people apparently get horribly offended by not having their unfounded, contradictory, and just plain old false claims questioned.

so nerf tippia?