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ElCoCo
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.07 21:43:00 -
[61]
To be honest, this desync issue first appeared (or at least I noticed it) a long long time ago when you first introduced deadspace missions and complexes (end of 2005?).
Meaning you could be alone in a deadspace pocket, watching/shooting at some NPC's but their position (or yours) was not where it was displayed in the client. Testament to this was the inability to activate modules such as webifiers even though the client displayed that X NPC was just meters from you... sometimes the difference was a mere 1km and other times more than 20. Here is a screenshot of what happened then.
Furthermore when that particular rat was destroyed, it's can would appear in a different place, probably where the actual server position was.
Back then we were told it might have been related with motherboards clocks etc but tbh I've had it on 3 completely different PCs so that was probably not the case.
Since I haven't done any deadspace stuff in ages... does that problem still exist and could it be related?
The two most important problems in Eve at this moment are:
-Desyncs
-Client hang/hickups
Address those before doing any other radical stuff plz. You have realy stretched our patience
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Asestorian
Minmatar
Domination.
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Posted - 2007.08.07 22:04:00 -
[62]
Now that I think about it I remember having problems with desync to containers around late 2004/2005. I would attempt to loot a container, but I couldn't because I was always told it was further away than it appeared. It never happened to anything else. So this problem has been around for a good while, just not on the same scale.
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Rawthorm
Gallente
The Establishment
Establishment
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Posted - 2007.08.07 22:29:00 -
[63]
As a super cap pilot I can safely say that the Desync issue has notihng to do with PoS warfare. It happens when you collide with an object. It seems there is some disagreement between the client and server as to the outcome of that collision. The more objects in your way and the bigger your ship, the more pronounced the issue becomes. Stay 10km away from any and all obects and you'll never Desync.
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Callthetruth
Caldari
Drunken Ratbags Inc
New Eve Order
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Posted - 2007.08.07 23:04:00 -
[64]
guys throw up a jove titan for us to attack run the log servers and away we go
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Dark Shikari
Caldari
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.08.07 23:42:00 -
[65]
 Originally by: Rawthorm
As a super cap pilot I can safely say that the Desync issue has notihng to do with PoS warfare. It happens when you collide with an object. It seems there is some disagreement between the client and server as to the outcome of that collision. The more objects in your way and the bigger your ship, the more pronounced the issue becomes. Stay 10km away from any and all obects and you'll never Desync.
I know people who have desynced in a system with nobody else in local, so while that is a known cause its not the only cause.
23 Member
EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! |
ollobrains
Drunken Ratbags Inc
New Eve Order
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Posted - 2007.08.08 01:21:00 -
[66]
Edited by: ollobrains on 08/08/2007 01:21:53
its geting worse atm 8 ctd in an hour this is not good enough ccp - enough talking out my rear end tho i guess . U got any idea whats going on yet
im mean im not going to quit but ya gunna start to loose customers again if something isnt done new hardware was meant to reduce lag its worse today
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Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.08 01:41:00 -
[67]
I think it would be more productive to analyze desynch problem by carefully checking client and server code, rather than simply profiling performance and seeing where things don't match.
There are several variations of desynch problem in EVE:
1. Most common: ship position and velocity get mismatched between server and client. This can quickly propogate into unacceptable game state.
2. Less common, when client does not see other ships in grid, even when taking damage from those ships.
There may be some others, but those are main ones.
Going from that, there are 2 things you need to carefully analyze:
1) all the code that generates and processes time stamps. Errors with time stamp handling could easily be responsible for a lot of desynch problems.
2) compare code that performs predictions on client side with code that sets final decisions server side. This is where things like bumping can cause problems. When ships bump, client may predict movement slightly differently than what server calculates and somehow, server doesn't properly correct the client. Or the client misses corrections from server.
Regardless of everything else, can any CCP programmer say with confidence that those 2 mechanisms in EVE code are safe?
Are they even localized to any managable degree? if not, would be pretty hard to know if you checked all the cases where they are used.
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Lou Takki
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Posted - 2007.08.08 05:06:00 -
[68]
Here is a crazy freakin idea...
How many of you have had your ISP's switch to using some kind of Traffic/Packet shaping technology? Probably more of you than you know. What if some of the "Resync" packets have some kind of flag in them that ends up getting them blocked/diverted/delayed therefore making it impossible to properly resync the client again. I've seen a lot of wierd stuff on my network (think cross-continental) since all these ISP's have started doing all this packet shaping bulls***.
Its a long shot but its not impossible either. Maybe testing for desync across different service providers to ensure this is not the issue?
Lou Takki
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ThunderGodThor
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.08 06:15:00 -
[69]
Originally by: ElCoCo
To be honest, this desync issue first appeared (or at least I noticed it) a long long time ago when you first introduced deadspace missions and complexes (end of 2005?).
Meaning you could be alone in a deadspace pocket, watching/shooting at some NPC's but their position (or yours) was not where it was displayed in the client. Testament to this was the inability to activate modules such as webifiers even though the client displayed that X NPC was just meters from you... sometimes the difference was a mere 1km and other times more than 20. Here is a screenshot of what happened then.
Furthermore when that particular rat was destroyed, it's can would appear in a different place, probably where the actual server position was.
Back then we were told it might have been related with motherboards clocks etc but tbh I've had it on 3 completely different PCs so that was probably not the case.
Since I haven't done any deadspace stuff in ages... does that problem still exist and could it be related?
The two most important problems in Eve at this moment are:
-Desyncs
-Client hang/hickups
Address those before doing any other radical stuff plz. You have realy stretched our patience
Yes Elcoco I tend to agree this problem is much older then most of us are thinking. Really thinking about it has happened a few times in the past.. feww battles ect but not like it is now. Some change in Rev 2 made much worse then before. Hell that same cplx there in oddette i almost lost a deimos there a year and a half ago do to a desync. I had to warp out but the because the client wasnt updating right i endded at the gate and the ships were still hitting me at 20AU.
Me thinks that about that time the capacitor had a real bad time updating too. Thats why i had to warp thinking bout it i ran out of cap but it was showing still almost full..... wasnt it not long after that they fixed taht bug  
I wonder could the problem with the capacitor updating properly be part of this issue now or what ever was the actuall cause of it. Because it seem so me that for what ever reason the server see's you updated properly but it for what ever fails to send the correct info or the client fails to update. The real question becomes is this a preseved server side issue or is it some where in the client its self. Do the devs have any idea on which it is or could it be both at the same time... and thats why it cant be repreduced?
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Scorpyn
Caldari
Infinitus Odium
The Church.
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Posted - 2007.08.08 06:24:00 -
[70]
Originally by: ElCoCo
To be honest, this desync issue first appeared (or at least I noticed it) a long long time ago when you first introduced deadspace missions and complexes (end of 2005?).
Actually the issue has been there for as long as I can remember, it's just that it's gone out of proportion lately.
2007-07-19 20:26 |
Frug
Zenithal Harvest
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Posted - 2007.08.08 06:45:00 -
[71]
So this test, it is over?
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - -
If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO
BOOO!! - Ductoris
Neat look what I found - Kreul
Hey, my marbles |
Steini OFSI
Gallente
Minigame
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Posted - 2007.08.08 08:19:00 -
[72]
They must love the smell of coffee and fresh logs in the morning
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Gane Green
Gallente
Digital Foundry
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Posted - 2007.08.08 08:39:00 -
[73]
Easy put a lot of drones in a carrier. Set them to different folders. Expand them while outside. Do this one or two times and there will be a lagg that dosent show up on ctrl f's fps counter. It will seem like 1fps when the counter shows 30 fps. This lagg can follow you thru different systems. With only you in system. Only way to correct that is minimize the selected objects part of your overview and maximise it again. Bam Phantom lagg is gone.
Dont know if this is related to the desync but it might be worth looking into. Everyone I have known that flies carriers get this problem all the time. Ive got this phantom lagg when not in a carrier also and minimizing the selected objects seems to clear it up.
It could be one factor in the desync problem. You never know.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.08.08 09:56:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Well, form my dozned experiences on desync, the majority of times it happened some of the following were present.
- Massive load of new players/ships in a system (aka fleet jump) (result on both sides desync)
- Bumping ships in a grid that is richly filled with ships
- When a ship is killed and becomes a wreck (happened several times with me, with no more than 5 ships in grid, one explode, all desync)
-Cyno a capital ship inside a large group of ships, as soon as they start to bounce away.. everyone is desyncd
Extras
-Not a single time th client appeared to be under any computational stress
-Since REV2 , a lot of 3-8 seconds stutters became very very common, even when docked, and they are always present, never pass more than 10 min without one. That was not present before revelations 2, and I could bet a Quafe bottle they are related.
I want to add 2 extra situations to Kagura list:
- salvaging a big mission (after completing, deliverind it and returning with a salvage ship, so it is not coombat related), Doing it with fast ship you get some bumping, ad usually have a big number of cans/recks. You will notice that the server and your client see different positions for your salvaging ship, the event is fairly common (about 1/3 of the time);
- more rare: while mining, if you bump in some object or your drones (especially mining drones) bump on you, you get positionals errors.
So it really seem related to bumping.
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Aleksey NB
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Posted - 2007.08.08 10:52:00 -
[75]
I've new desync issue after patch:
I was orbiting at pos. One man jumps to me i see that he is at 10m near me (overview also). Then i try to repair him but i receive message 'Object is too far from you'.
I ask him - are you near me?. He said not, he had far away from me. Something like my eve client did't receive all inforamation about objects nearby... |
darth solo
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.08.08 10:53:00 -
[76]
desync in my experience is caused by ships entering the system either through the gate or by cyno then fighting the group thats already there.
i have yet to be desyncd by fights where both sides started in same system.
d solo.
RECRUITING... visit www.celesapoc.com ingame channel "celespublic" for recruitment or chat |
Mallick
Northern Intelligence
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2007.08.08 12:01:00 -
[77]
This issue has been ongoing for almost three years. Only after enough whinepost does CCP care. :\
You can get desynced EVERYWHERE. It just happens. Most annoying is in a complex or fleet battle. Like for example the client says your 2km behind your mate in a battleship, when you are really 20km.
As soon as he takes damage you think "oh i will remote you, and then boom, "you must be within 8000 meters to activate this module". oh crap".
But this is EVE, nothing is bugged, everything is working as intended and everything is a feature; server logs shows nothing wrong. :)
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Aridia Parker
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.08.08 12:31:00 -
[78]
Is it related to the "ever been there" - feature of being too far away from cans while trying to loot even if your client says you are within 1500m?
That one is there since I started playing which was around Sept 2003...
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No signature needed. |
OneSock
Silentia Mortalis
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Posted - 2007.08.08 12:35:00 -
[79]
Sounds to me that the problem is more to do with the volume of state data being communicated. The major problems occur when there is a large volume of data to be processed and communicated with all the other clients. I can easily see how some of that data gets lost in transit or from a full buffer or simply doesn't get processed "in time".
Bumping may not be the actual cause, but certainly will add to the volume of state data to be processed and sent out to the clients.
Take the Suparcap for example, no doubt it would be the primary target and would be bumped to heck. There must be so much data coming from all the attackers and destined to the one client. Any supprise the warp off gets missed somehow ?
Could it be that recent additions such as heat have also increased the volume of data to be processed and is now past a critical point ?
Just a theory anyway.
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Shadoo
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.08.08 14:26:00 -
[80]
Since last patch, the most desyncs I've seen have indeed been caused by bumping and not only supercap.
Just last week 3x ships bumping a Thanatos caused both me (bumper) and the target (Thanatos) to be desynched both having to relog. Local @ 11, 5 ships on grid, 10-15 drones + 10 or so fighters out.
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Alatari
Winterdawn
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Posted - 2007.08.08 14:41:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
I know people who have desynced in a system with nobody else in local, so while that is a known cause its not the only cause.
We don't know if desync* is related to a node or to a system, if its the former then it may affect all systems on that node.
* - sorry, 'client simulation divergence'
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You can't do that with a Planet. |
Joshua Foiritain
Gallente
Coreli Corporation
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.08.08 17:00:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Rawthorm
As a super cap pilot I can safely say that the Desync issue has notihng to do with PoS warfare. It happens when you collide with an object. It seems there is some disagreement between the client and server as to the outcome of that collision. The more objects in your way and the bigger your ship, the more pronounced the issue becomes. Stay 10km away from any and all obects and you'll never Desync.
I know people who have desynced in a system with nobody else in local, so while that is a known cause its not the only cause.
Ive managed to desync while traveling and sitting cloaked in a safespot 
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Cyan Nuevo
The Blackguard Wolves
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Posted - 2007.08.08 17:37:00 -
[83]
Now take this with a grain of salt since I don't know exactly what I'm talking about, but you have to realize that there are two different problems here. The first is barely a problem: the original desync. Redundancy already commented on this, it happens all the time but the client and server work it out and you get the "going back in time effect". Now the real problem is when the above happens and it is not resolved and your client continues along its merry way.
If I'm right, the problem is not in the actual bumping mechanics, but in what happens afterwards. The issue with bumping is that it creates many situations where a very small change in cause has a very large change in effect, ie, a slight change in bumping ship's velocity can determine whether the bumped ship warps out or not. Sure, this increases the chance of the first (original desync) happening, but it doesn't explain why the client doesn't then correct itself.
I'm sure CCP understands this all already (if I'm even right  ), I'm mainly writing to everyone that seems to be focusing on bumping: instead, try to post background information that might reveal common factors that produce the second problem.
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Proud Amarr pilot.
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Mebrithiel Ju'wien
Omerta Syndicate
Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.08.08 18:32:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
I know people who have desynced in a system with nobody else in local, so while that is a known cause its not the only cause.
Ditto. In both a Mammoth and a Domi so far.
There was a pos in the system though...
Good girls go to Heaven. Bad girls get drunk and pew pew everywhere! |
Mr Friendly
That it Should Come to This
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Posted - 2007.08.09 03:03:00 -
[85]
I had desynch happen last night when I was ratting in an empty 0.0 system, far off the beaten track. Warped in to the belt @ 30km, saw no rats, tried to warp out and was clearly bumping an asteroid though the nearest was 18 km's on my overview and I had clear space around my ship on my screen 
I don't often see sync problems, but I mostly fly solo and haven't been trying to do anything in a busy system (eg missioning), in some weeks.
__________________________________________________
FOLD. The Ultimate PVP. It really is Us vs. Them.
clicky |
Latrina Jane
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Posted - 2007.08.09 07:34:00 -
[86]
Try getting everyone on in an attack / defend type scenario.
Some people camp the gate, others jump in etc. That's how i've de-sync'd 3 times now. From fleets jumping into us camping a gate, even from a 17man fleet and 15 of us waiting.
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Sinder Ohm
Infinite Improbability Inc
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2007.08.09 07:42:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Sinder Ohm on 09/08/2007 07:43:06
Dsync is still very much a problem!!
Taake a look at this thread about the battle in S-K 
Click
it was never this bad ffs :(
Originally by: Rawne Karrde
PVP in EvE is consentual, you agree to it when you login. If you don't like it you're in the wrong game.
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2007.08.09 10:20:00 -
[88]
So was anything learned from this event?
Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened. |
Z3r0n
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS....
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.08.09 10:22:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Latrina Jane
Try getting everyone on in an attack / defend type scenario.
Some people camp the gate, others jump in etc. That's how i've de-sync'd 3 times now. From fleets jumping into us camping a gate, even from a 17man fleet and 15 of us waiting.
I agree. I have desynced in pretty much every fleet battle in the last few weeks. Even ones that didn't have 400 people... session-changes really f### everything up.  |
Wataru Amnesia
Amarr
Black Lion Legion
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Posted - 2007.08.09 10:34:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Wataru Amnesia on 09/08/2007 10:43:26
I am not aware of the full hardware-setup and server-services you are using for the whole eve-universe(Blades, Python Engine, MS Databases.....), but back at the stress-test (even if i was a bit to late there) i do noticed some common behaviors of MS databases.
First of all to clarify, desyncs are no network lag, they are pure database-lag. IN Linux-terms we speak of broken pipes, which are mostly unrecoverable.
in MS-Terms we speak of the Snail-rail if such desync issues happens.
At the stress test it was easily to manage the desync issue cause of the lack of attendies to the test, BUT there was one thing clear: your Database was not able to handle the querys of the static POS-tower.
Why is that so?
Cause all together shoot at once at 1 single static data-base file.
Beside the general lag, there was minor desync in this attack, not notices as such cause the grid remained stable enough to do something and device lag was below 2 secounds.
As soon as the POS tower was down there was almost no lag, but all the people stayed and fighted otherwise on the arenas or for fun.
Now i have took a look at MS current database policities, and there was a minor change in the query limit, prohibiting loss of data but causing desync.
I can only compare it with Linux-knowledge since i am more focused on MYSQL, but mysql got the same restrictions like MS.
MS-SQL Server 2005 Enterprise with SP2 got a querylimit from 629-720 querys(threaded) at once on one single Data-base entry.
So if it happens that more querys are done then that/secound the Databse starts to queue the querys.
So now the database-server in combination with your server-engine starts to recover asynchron for the pilots. That means some will get enough data to remain synchron in time, but since the querys most liekly wont stop until the target is down the database-queue remains full. MS SQL has no priority management according to our pilot-data-sentences (maybe wront usage of primary keys?) so if a pilot wont get synchronized data for longer then 60 secound s(timeout) he will be desynched and wont recover until the queue gets emptied and the data gets synchronized again.
Possible solutions under Linux was for us to raise the query limit/thread/database-entry. However raising that limit occurs in data-base crashes sometimes, since you order the database to ignore the queue. That means more lag again but no desync.
I dont know if you cluster the whole Database or if your Blade-Servers are just equipped with the Server-engine and work as network-balancing units.
But i do know(can calculate) that you would need at least a 12-parted clusters of the MS-SQL Database to have garantue for no desync for around 800 (i.e.) Ravens shooting 6 Missiles each on 1 target.
However i am no expert for MS-Databases so i dont know the tricks MS DEvelopers provide. while Mysql wont allo such a clustering method cause to security restrictions maybe MS will do that since its engine is far more complex and got more functions.
Also the minor desync-issues of people with less traffic around i cant understand. MAybe its cause the database shares the same node then a neighbor system but that would mean that the total amount of overall querys of the whole node must be reached.
MAny hints, no conclusions.
1 advice maybe for another stress-test: get more people to it, the 150-200 this time where way to less to reach the database-query limit at once.
Good luck on the solutions!
Edit: I finished reading all hints so far, noticed one pilot mentioning the introduction of Heat could be a main factor. That is absolutely true, since Heat introduces yet more querys to each pilot in a fight while heat is active.
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