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Strange how we never hear about Invention any more

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Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.07 21:18:00 - [1] T2 equipment prices seem to have stabilised at 20-50% of their 2006 values. Fine by me - I'm a pure consumer - and I consequently assume that it's still reasonably profitable for both the producers and the inventors as evidenced by (1) the continuing supply and (2) the lack of complaining. Any producers/inventors care to comment? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
jam6549 Malicious Intentions Cult of War	Posted - 2007.08.07 21:26:00 - [2] if i were them i wouldn't say how well i was doing. especially if i was doing really well - would attract competition! Jam6549
Korben Morat Caldari Special Circumstances.	Posted - 2007.08.07 21:29:00 - [3] invention is pretty good, reasonably profitable so long as you have good skills and aren't the unluckiest person in the game. Still not as profitable as having a t2 cap recharger bpo in 2005 but it takes time and effort and imo it has worked out very well.
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.07 21:34:00 - [4] That's what I thought. When invention was introduced, there was a fantastic amount of complaining about it. It just occurred to me that for the last couple of months, there hasn't been a peep about it. Do we give CCP props for getting something just right...? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.08.07 21:35:00 - [5] Originally by: Malcanis Do we give CCP props for getting something just right...? I believe that's against forum rules, and will result in a warning. ------------ Whiners - Unite! Tarminic - 25 Million SP in Forum Warfare.
FT Diomedes Gallente Ductus Exemplo	Posted - 2007.08.07 21:35:00 - [6] Originally by: Korben Morat invention is pretty good, reasonably profitable so long as you have good skills and aren't the unluckiest person in the game. Still not as profitable as having a t2 cap recharger bpo in 2005 but it takes time and effort and imo it has worked out very well. That's good, because it is quite a hefty investment of time and ISK to get good at it. ------------ Improvize. Adapt. Overcome.
Agrilad	Posted - 2007.08.07 21:46:00 - [7] Originally by: FT Diomedes Originally by: Korben Morat invention is pretty good, reasonably profitable so long as you have good skills and aren't the unluckiest person in the game. Still not as profitable as having a t2 cap recharger bpo in 2005 but it takes time and effort and imo it has worked out very well. That's good, because it is quite a hefty investment of time and ISK to get good at it. Ain't that the truth. 13+ mil skill points in science and counting.
Awox Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.08.07 23:58:00 - [8] CCP got something right? Doesn't do anything but diminish returns of those with researched tech II BPOs they got from the lottery. Doesn't prevent tech II bpo owners from fixing the prices of certain items in the trade hubs with their billions. - Security Director Advanced Logistics
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.08 00:02:00 - [9] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Malcanis Do we give CCP props for getting something just right...? I believe that's against forum rules, and will result in a warning. Let's be rebellious and congratulate CCP anyways. Those bastards better listen to our thanks or else! --- Grismar.net
SonOTassadar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.08.08 00:45:00 - [10] Originally by: Malcanis Do we give CCP props for getting something just right...? I wouldn't say "just right". Sure, the situation is better than before, but random chance (the way invention works currently) is best left to games like Mario Party -- not a dark-themed sci-fi MMO. It's better than it was, but there's room for improvement. ----- Griffin -- 100,000 ISK ECM - Multispectral Jammer Is -- 20,000 ISK Standard Missile Launcher Is -- 10,000 ISK War target sobbing over losing a fight in his T2 fitted Battleship -- priceless
Callthetruth Caldari Drunken Ratbags Inc New Eve Order	Posted - 2007.08.08 00:53:00 - [11] Originally by: SonOTassadar Originally by: Malcanis Do we give CCP props for getting something just right...? I wouldn't say "just right". Sure, the situation is better than before, but random chance (the way invention works currently) is best left to games like Mario Party -- not a dark-themed sci-fi MMO. It's better than it was, but there's room for improvement. random chance is anti macro and anti farmer so the only room for improvement is on the overall seeding level
Sh'ger	Posted - 2007.08.08 00:59:00 - [12] I've made a mint selling xxx (ship/data/tuner) interfaces on the market - supplying the invention market can be just as profitable...
An Anarchyyt Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.08.08 01:52:00 - [13] Originally by: SonOTassadar Originally by: Malcanis Do we give CCP props for getting something just right...? I wouldn't say "just right". Sure, the situation is better than before, but random chance (the way invention works currently) is best left to games like Mario Party -- not a dark-themed sci-fi MMO. It's better than it was, but there's room for improvement. Because in the future, Murphy's Law will be reversed Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
YetAnotherTradeAlt	Posted - 2007.08.08 02:09:00 - [14] Originally by: Awox CCP got something right? Doesn't do anything but diminish returns of those with researched tech II BPOs they got from the lottery. Doesn't prevent tech II bpo owners from fixing the prices of certain items in the trade hubs with their billions. Can you back up these assertions or are you just making blanket statements about all the characters who somehow got ahead of you? And what of those who saved and BOUGHT T2 BPOs? Endless ISK printers they are not. Trust me, if we could fix prices in trade hubs, Hulks wouldn't be 120m.
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.08 02:32:00 - [15] Edited by: cal nereus on 08/08/2007 02:31:54 Chance is a good thing IMHO. I hate games that are 100% predictable, and the simple application of mathematics solves all problems. There should at least be some luck involved. --- Grismar.net
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.08.08 02:38:00 - [16] Originally by: YetAnotherTradeAlt Originally by: Awox CCP got something right? Doesn't do anything but diminish returns of those with researched tech II BPOs they got from the lottery. Doesn't prevent tech II bpo owners from fixing the prices of certain items in the trade hubs with their billions. Can you back up these assertions or are you just making blanket statements about all the characters who somehow got ahead of you? And what of those who saved and BOUGHT T2 BPOs? Endless ISK printers they are not. Trust me, if we could fix prices in trade hubs, Hulks wouldn't be 120m. The point is, invention only cut down the 5000% profit down to like 50 to 150%... it is impossible to undercut t2 bpo owner with invention, so if the bpo owner stay just below the invention cost, they still make huge amounts without much work. T2 BPOs are the worst misstake after the invention of religion imho.
Spawinte The Templars Knights	Posted - 2007.08.08 02:40:00 - [17] I know the thread is about mods, but what about some of the t2 ships? Recons, HACS and Commands still cost far too much imo.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.08.08 02:43:00 - [18] Originally by: Spawinte I know the thread is about mods, but what about some of the t2 ships? Recons, HACS and Commands still cost far too much imo. Well then, fix it if you want. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Spawinte The Templars Knights	Posted - 2007.08.08 02:48:00 - [19] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: Spawinte I know the thread is about mods, but what about some of the t2 ships? Recons, HACS and Commands still cost far too much imo. Well then, fix it if you want. Sorry, what i should have said is that invention on these ships is maybe a little too difficult which fails to keep prices at a reasonable level.
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.08.08 02:52:00 - [20] Inventing ships is pretty much a joke... you need huge invests, a lot of luck and like 4 people working on it. Its just no really worth doing it, so the BPO owner can still dictate prices. Really, 32 ME datacores dor 1 try? Pretty much no way to make profit with the tiny chance to get a success even with millions of SP invested
Drizit Amarr Lonely out here Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.08 03:46:00 - [21] After looking at datacore prices and calculating them against selling prices for the items I came to the conclusion that invention is marginally profitable. Add in the chances of failure and profit margins often go into the minus figures. You don't hear so much about it because I guess everyone has given up on trying to point out just how harsh the failure rate is unless you have uber science skills. --
Athanasios Anastasiou Art of War	Posted - 2007.08.08 04:03:00 - [22] Edited by: Athanasios Anastasiou on 08/08/2007 04:04:11 Originally by: Drizit After looking at datacore prices and calculating them against selling prices for the items I came to the conclusion that invention is marginally profitable. Add in the chances of failure and profit margins often go into the minus figures. You don't hear so much about it because I guess everyone has given up on trying to point out just how harsh the failure rate is unless you have uber science skills. So the thousands of inventing jobs started everyday are just done for fun right?
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.08 04:13:00 - [23] Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the thousands of invention jobs were done for fun. I know at least one person who does it for fun (no, seriously, he thinks it's fun). But I think there's a financial benefit to it too. --- Grismar.net
Fon Revedhort Aeria Gloris Inc United Legion	Posted - 2007.08.08 04:47:00 - [24] Originally by: Drizit After looking at datacore prices and calculating them against selling prices for the items I came to the conclusion that invention is marginally profitable. Add in the chances of failure and profit margins often go into the minus figures. You don't hear so much about it because I guess everyone has given up on trying to point out just how harsh the failure rate is unless you have uber science skills. Exactly. Was inventing some stuff in spring and there's no way I'd get back to it with the current prices on tech2 modules. It's barely profitable - so you are just wasting tonnes of your time for nothing. Invention has already exhausted its competative potential. As for ships... well... just too much hassle. Starting a job with less than a dozen of runs is risky cause of the chance-based mechaninc, and dozen of jobs is a huge investment, which is still risky in its own way ---
FingerThief Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.08 05:55:00 - [25] Edited by: FingerThief on 08/08/2007 05:58:30 Originally by: Benn Helmsman The point is, invention only cut down the 5000% profit down to like 50 to 150%... it is impossible to undercut t2 bpo owner with invention, so if the bpo owner stay just below the invention cost, they still make huge amounts without much work. T2 BPOs are the worst misstake after the invention of religion imho. Almost correct there ... Most T2 BPO owner do not spread their product around the regions, they just build a batch and set it up in <insertmajororminortradehubnamehere>. I do extensive invention and the sales are profitable and in return finance invention ( aka let me purchase datacores ). It not only what you invent but also where you sell it. Certain T2 ships that in Jita cost 100M you can sell somewhere else for 130M. Example: Stabber - Vagabond Cost: 10 runs in invention 150M ( 140M in datacores, I do not use base item or decryptors [ which are a waste of cash ] ) Result: 3 to 5 Vagabond 1 run BPC's at ME/PE -4 ( let's assume 4 ) MarketValue: 400M Profit: I let you calculate it ... but it is certainly worth it. Why is that better then a Tech II BPO for it, simple ... even thou the Tech II BPO requires less materials to build it cannot build the 4 ships simultaneously ... I can. Continuing to invent ( running copies of multiple Stabber BPO's ), running 10 invention jobs at a time ( 2d 2h duration ) I can crank out way more Vagabonds then the BPO owner ever will have a chance to. And above goes for every single Tech II inventable item. Naturally if you don't do it on industrial level ( 10, maybe 20 inventions jobs ) you'll never get anywhere ... but invention itself if profitable. FT Edited for spelling.
vanderi	Posted - 2007.08.08 06:23:00 - [26] Edited by: vanderi on 08/08/2007 06:22:56 NICE post above. Sorry that's all I have to say. -Vanderi
Dillon Arklight Unit 14	Posted - 2007.08.08 06:34:00 - [27] Ive been doing invention for the past few months and all in all i like it. The chance based aspect keeps it interesting and the relatively high skill investment means that not everybody can take part. This may not seem like a good aspect of invention but personally i like that it takes time and investment to specialise in a career in EVE. If everyone could achieve perfect build skills or if it only took a couple of months to specialise in a race the playerbase skill's variety would be almost redundant. Anyway i digress. The tech 2 market has pretty much stabilised atm with large decreases in most modules and ships. Interceptors costing only a few million where months ago they cost 5 times as much. SO far it seems that invention is doing pretty much what CCP wanted it to do, i guess we will have to wait and see how it changes over the next few months before we can take the almost unknown step of congratulating CCP for a job well done .... P.S there is a channel ingame to discuss everthing invention, its called Invention and assuming the inventors can tear themselves away from their labs most questions will be answered.
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.08.08 06:40:00 - [28] Originally by: FingerThief Edited by: FingerThief on 08/08/2007 05:58:30 Originally by: Benn Helmsman The point is, invention only cut down the 5000% profit down to like 50 to 150%... it is impossible to undercut t2 bpo owner with invention, so if the bpo owner stay just below the invention cost, they still make huge amounts without much work. T2 BPOs are the worst misstake after the invention of religion imho. Almost correct there ... Most T2 BPO owner do not spread their product around the regions, they just build a batch and set it up in <insertmajororminortradehubnamehere>. I do extensive invention and the sales are profitable and in return finance invention ( aka let me purchase datacores ). It not only what you invent but also where you sell it. Certain T2 ships that in Jita cost 100M you can sell somewhere else for 130M. Example: Stabber - Vagabond Cost: 10 runs in invention 150M ( 140M in datacores, I do not use base item or decryptors [ which are a waste of cash ] ) Result: 3 to 5 Vagabond 1 run BPC's at ME/PE -4 ( let's assume 4 ) MarketValue: 400M Profit: I let you calculate it ... but it is certainly worth it. Why is that better then a Tech II BPO for it, simple ... even thou the Tech II BPO requires less materials to build it cannot build the 4 ships simultaneously ... I can. Continuing to invent ( running copies of multiple Stabber BPO's ), running 10 invention jobs at a time ( 2d 2h duration ) I can crank out way more Vagabonds then the BPO owner ever will have a chance to. And above goes for every single Tech II inventable item. Naturally if you don't do it on industrial level ( 10, maybe 20 inventions jobs ) you'll never get anywhere ... but invention itself if profitable. FT Edited for spelling. There are a few problems: First you need to have full run t1 bpc to get 1 run out of an invented t2 bpo without a decryptor right? That will add a lot of research time or cost to your invention jobs. Second: Getting 4 successfull out of 10 tries is a very very optimistic guess, even with the +30% chance decryptor and a base item, i had less then 25% success on inventing cerberus. Third: Even if you assume 4 out of 10 are succesfull, you wont really make it worth it. 400M-140M leaves 260M. If we assume that you have to pay nearly 30M in ressources to build it with -4ME we still have 140M left. Well that looks pretty nice at the first but it is hardly making up the risk and time invested. You need more than 2 days for one batch of invention and another 1 1/2 days to build the ships. That means you use all research capacities and 40% manufacturing of a maxed out character to get a payout of about 50M a day, and thats if you are extremly lucky.
Harper Ei	Posted - 2007.08.08 07:00:00 - [29] Perhaps because most ppl realise that it is no use bothering about. As I poited out the other day, most T2 stuff is too expensive to produce, and inventing it is rather useless without producing it. It takes way too long to wait for a copyjob, and material research is an even bigger joke. There are way too few slots around. I have trained millions of research SP on a 7 month old account, and recently finally got to do some of it. I have stopped again. Does not pay off. dead end. I have found other sources of income that vastly outperforms it, and with lot less risk. - This is not my main. I have no alts. I therefore have no main. This is me. Mains are for whiners only!
Liliane Woodhead Intergalactic Charwomen	Posted - 2007.08.08 07:07:00 - [30] Edited by: Liliane Woodhead on 08/08/2007 07:10:23 no numbers no discussion ... so i shut up ! ........ ah but very strange things happen on pos labs .... a miracle ! Edit: ah and to the upper poster -> its ugly but it is valuable to engeneer t2 for our friends. if they dont want to pay our prices they dont pay it. but we are ... we inventors are **** with the system .... ups. i said it

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