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kessah
Blood Corsair's
The Red Skull
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Posted - 2007.08.23 15:10:00 -
[1]
Before you Read:
This is a forum section to flag setups up for discussion, help out pod pilots with setup's and receive feedback on your own.
Ignorant replies such as "stop whining", "TH3R3 F1n3 !?!" or "You just dont know how to pvp etc" dont add a thing to the discussion and will frankly be ignore and flagged to the forum moderators.
Anyways back on topic....
Call me old fashioned, but i remember when cap management and Shield/Armour repping was at the core of skillful pvp.
Far to much lately ive seen ships, over loaded with plates or shield extenders, 1 or 2 plates/lse thats fair enough gives u a nice buffer zone so i can understand it, but when ppl are out with 4/5 plates and trimarks pumps several dmg mods etc where is the skill in that?
Your simply locking targets and hitting f1 -> f8, worst thing is ive seen ppl doing this on a station, undocking firing - when it hits the fan or armour hits about the 40% mark deaggro and dock, with the only fear of bumping and when your mass is so high like that and on a Caldari/Amarr station theres not much to worry about.
Theres always something in eve that gets a new craze - but always is it when a mod is completely covering or mostly cover and entire rack of either low, medium or high slots.
I wont say ive not done this tactic (fire with fire, like with dampeners) but CCP's act of 'making combat last longer' might have taken it that inch to far and in the process created another lame'ish' type of setup, where its subtracted some really skillful pvp aspects for that longer rush. Cap Management and Knowing when to hit your reps/booster is very skilled thing to do in PvP imho.
Its a delicate balance EvE and its why i trust CCP's rule on things - So im flagging this to them and a possible test and re-test to look at this situation - is it what they wanted the HP/plate boost patch to be like?
Armour reppers are looking lately like hull reppers.
Please discuss respectfully.
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[Video] Forever Pirate 3
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Nocturnal Avenger
The Ankou
The Reckoning.
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Posted - 2007.08.23 15:18:00 -
[2]
My ignorant reply is, that being old fashioned always lose to those who adapt.
Real skill is doing whatever - within game mechanics - it takes to win.
- Carebear Pirate - |
Arakidias
Murky Inc.
FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.23 15:27:00 -
[3]
So you got ganked by people who developed new and better tactics and you failed to adapt?
Disclaimer: this poster is a carebear extraordinaire and knows nothing about pvp.
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Chalan Galadriel
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Posted - 2007.08.23 15:49:00 -
[4]
I could be wrong but in my opinion,
Plates are a response to the fact that tanks became so strong, you couldn`t break them at all without gearing everything on your ship towards damage.
In my case i run a plated megathron with the Tri-marks you talk about, its about 28k armour and does about 1300 dps according to quickfit. Now, to break the tank of a dominix these days i NEED to run Neutron Blasters, i NEED 3 damage mods, and this means i simply cannot fit reppers due to powergrid ( i cant even fit EANM II's or WS II's with ADV Upgrade 5, but thats another story!!)
So in my case at least, its the way i deal with how awesomely strong tanks are since rigs came into effect, and the setup above is the only way to fit a mega now. If you use Electrons or Ions with reppers you will not break anyones tank, 1000dps is no longer enough.
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Gorek Loc
Fine Art Manufactury
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Posted - 2007.08.23 15:53:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: kessah
Ignorant replies such as "stop whining", "TH3R3 F1n3 !?!" or "You just dont know how to pvp etc" dont add a thing to the discussion and will frankly be ignore and flagged to the forum moderators.
...
...
Far to much lately ive seen ships, over loaded with plates or shield extenders, 1 or 2 plates/lse thats fair enough gives u a nice buffer zone so i can understand it, but when ppl are out with 4/5 plates and trimarks pumps several dmg mods etc where is the skill in that?
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...
Please discuss respectfully.
I'm gonna ignore the first remark. It's pointless since noone that wants to flame is going to read it anyway.
To the point: Fitting a ship is a damn good skill! I'd say that fitting a ship is half-a victory, even with a blind pilot. Besides, if they are fitting defensive mods, they will lack offensive modules.
I hope this is respectful enough for you, sir. 
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kessah
Blood Corsair's
The Red Skull
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Posted - 2007.08.23 16:40:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Arakidias
So you got ganked by people who developed new and better tactics and you failed to adapt?
Disclaimer: this poster is a carebear extraordinaire and knows nothing about pvp.
First no ive not been ganked by plated ships
*check the blood corsairs killboard if you wish.*
Second, adapt you say? please enlighten me how you can get around this tank? It is a one trick pony setup and it with 100% armour will solo anything; so you bring gang mates with ew and grind it down right?
Not always... and i dont want to either, shouldnt always be about blobs. Like with the station huggers.
Its not always about adaption, sometimes CCP get it slightly off, so if thats the case as in real life take matters into your own fix it 'or get it looked at by CCP'
Again removing one aspect of the PvP experience, unexpectedly doesn't make you unable to adapt, because in this case adaption means more players in your gang - Thats definetly not what CCP wanted.
Finally i dont believe any module other than guns/missles (because they have hardpoints ofc) should be fit in any extreme, stacking nerfs are essential i believe.
Arakidias i think you and others that use the setup, well its fine your fighting fire with fire like i did, but! is that really what you want PvP to boil down to?
No Cap management, No Timed Management of Reppers/Boosters?
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[Video] Forever Pirate 3
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Blood Cultist
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Posted - 2007.08.23 16:48:00 -
[7]
I plate most of my setups. The reason? Blobs. Reppers do not help when you can only run them for a few cycles due to intense focus fire, plates allow me to live longer under those conditions.
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madaluap
Gallente
Mercenary Forces
Exquisite Malevolence
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Posted - 2007.08.23 16:56:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Blood Cultist
I plate most of my setups. The reason? Blobs. Reppers do not help when you can only run them for a few cycles due to intense focus fire, plates allow me to live longer under those conditions.
We have a winner! Plating > active tanking, cause of the current way nos works and the way DPS has allways worked in eve. Get primaried and go down in 2 armor repcycles or get primaried and survive 1 minute of brutal damage while still firing yourself...
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Breetime
A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA |
slothe
Caldari
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.08.23 17:40:00 -
[9]
i think you have to bare in mind the influence of remote reppers and drones.
people use these a lot more now. why waste a low slot on a repper when u can use a high slot or drones.
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anillation
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Posted - 2007.08.23 17:57:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Arakidias
So you got ganked by people who developed new and better tactics and you failed to adapt?
Disclaimer: this poster is a carebear extraordinaire and knows nothing about pvp.
ROFL! I still run my myrm, ishkur, and brutix with no plate. So not everyone runs plates.
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Tenpun M
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Posted - 2007.08.23 18:22:00 -
[11]
i'm hoping some amount of balance will be restored when the nos nerf hits TQ. At the moment ships like the hyperion are questionably useful because they're so cap heavy, throw nos into the mix and its tank is a liability.
Maybe that's wishful thinking but I totally get where you are coming from, atm plates suit most situations far more than active tanking. Things should be more 50/50.
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Emperor D'Hoffryn
No Quarter.
Vae Victis.
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Posted - 2007.08.23 18:33:00 -
[12]
the only real change that is need atm is to increase the de-agression timers for ****ing and jumping.
it is pretty silly when you can undock, shoot, get jumped by 5 peeps, deagress and redock.
Originally by: Snuggly
It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
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wierchas n00bhunter
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Posted - 2007.08.23 18:53:00 -
[13]
kess u are wrong wrong wrong
u should get a blob ....
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Abye
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.08.23 18:59:00 -
[14]
Nos nerf will definately help active tanking. But still, an active tank has more trouble handling high burst damage than a fat plate.
___
Inappropriate signature. Please do not use this signature. Email us for more information -Eldo ([email protected]) |
Shereza
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Posted - 2007.08.23 19:00:00 -
[15]
You know, I know I had to have done the math wrong because with roughly 53% armor bonus from implants (full slave set (45%?) and the +8% armor implant) QuickFit says the maximum armor HP for a nightmare is something around 513k. It's a shame QuickFit's implant options are either obscure or just extremely limited.
That's with T2 rigs and nothing but T2 regenerative energized plates.
Going 4/4 1600mm rolled tungsten and T2 regenerative plates, the implants, and T1 trimark rigs the nightmare can still eke out over 200k HP.
Of course once any ship hits 28k armor HP using T2 regenerative plates is better than armor plates if you don't mind the cost. 33.6k HP for T1 regen plates.
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Jantix Shafalcon
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Posted - 2007.08.23 19:09:00 -
[16]
I would agree with the op. I understand why people use plates and what their purpose is with defense against blobs etc etc. But I still don't like it. I would rather give ships more natural resists to increase hp.
A game where 2 reps is more useful than 2 plates just seems like it would be more fun to play.
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Sayuri
Deathbringers
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Posted - 2007.08.23 20:06:00 -
[17]
stop whining
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Xequecal
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Posted - 2007.08.23 20:09:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Shereza
You know, I know I had to have done the math wrong because with roughly 53% armor bonus from implants (full slave set (45%?) and the +8% armor implant) QuickFit says the maximum armor HP for a nightmare is something around 513k. It's a shame QuickFit's implant options are either obscure or just extremely limited.
That's with T2 rigs and nothing but T2 regenerative energized plates.
Going 4/4 1600mm rolled tungsten and T2 regenerative plates, the implants, and T1 trimark rigs the nightmare can still eke out over 200k HP.
Of course once any ship hits 28k armor HP using T2 regenerative plates is better than armor plates if you don't mind the cost. 33.6k HP for T1 regen plates.
Quickfit's armor calculation is terrible. Energized regeneratives have a stacking penalty, Quickfit doesn't reflect it.
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Clavius XIV
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.23 21:57:00 -
[19]
In situations where dps is "low" active tank wins and can just tank forever till out of cap. In "high" dps situations where you would die before being able to convert your cap into rep cycles, buffer is better.
For a given incoming dps and a given ship there is always one choice that is best. So buffer vs active tank has always been a numbers game, and still is today.
Boosting reping over plating would actualy make the dock/undock sutuation you describe worse. Instead of being able to force someone to dock over time, they could perma tank you till they were out of cap, which with nos nerf + cap boosters can be much longer than any hp buffer.
Also last time I checked the FOTM was and always will be speed, from the dual mwd days through today.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.08.23 22:12:00 -
[20]
OK, trolling aside.
The reason that 'hitpoint' tanks have become popular, is because hitpoints increased recently.
And because in PvP, it's actually very hard indeed to tank two ships of the same class - most ships do more damage than they tank.
Now, the tradeoff on a plate, is how many hitpoints could I rep before I pop, vs. how many hitpoints does this plate give me.
A 1600mm plate II, gives 4200 hps.
A large armour repper, gives 800/15sec, but costs 400cap. 5 repper cycles later (1m 15) and the plate's still ahead, and your repper's eaten 2000 cap.
Ok. Not a bad trade, I think. 5 cycles, and then dead, vs. infinite cycles and cap.
Ah, but what happens if we fit 4 plates, vs. 4 reppers.
If each plate is 5 cycles, that's ... 20 cycles. or 5 minutes of 'single repper use'.
4 reppers on the other hand, will kill your cap dead dead dead.
In essence, you're trading off - a repper can, in theory, give you an 'infinite' duration tank. You do less dps than the rep cycle, I can tank you forever.
Most ships though, could break their own tank. So, it then becomes a question of duration - in a fight, how long will I (and my cap) last, to repair.
The cap point is the most important I think - everyone's fitting nos these days. You may see that changing soon though.
But also, when in an a gang environment, what happens is primary takes overwhelming DPS. At which point, your time to live is cut, and therefore so is your total amount repaired. But plates, scale linearly, because they don'y use cap. If I fit 100k armour hps, then ... well, twice as much incoming dps, is a half the survival time.
Compare that to repair rates - twice as much DPS halves your survival time from raw HPs, but _also_ halves the amount you can repair.
I think it's a state of the game thing. I rather like it. I think it's good to have ships that set out to 'last a while' rather than 'tank forever'.
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kessah
Blood Corsair's
The Red Skull
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Posted - 2007.08.24 00:17:00 -
[21]
aye some fair points. Thanks lads nice to have a mature debate on eve-o, dun happen often, but nice when it does.
Still hold my opinions on it though, dont think the nos nerf is guna have much to play though, neuts will start getting used and thats an even more scary thought that nos.
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[Video] Forever Pirate 3
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DubanFP
Caldari
Four Rings
D-L
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Posted - 2007.08.24 00:21:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Nocturnal Avenger
My ignorant reply is, that being old fashioned always lose to those who adapt.
Real skill is doing whatever - within game mechanics - it takes to win.
You sir, just won the forums.
___________
Xanstin> Your sig is full of really, really crap self quotes.
DubanFP> Happy now that i have your quote included? |
Dark Flare
Caldari
Corpus PCG
The State
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Posted - 2007.08.24 00:23:00 -
[23]
In a big fight, your repper won't have time to cycle more than twice when you get primaried; so plates are FAR better. On gank setups plates are better as you can get loads of effective HP and still fit a load of Damage mods. The only thing I use reps for is agile ships that I want to remain agile I'm afraid :P
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.08.24 01:08:00 -
[24]
Damnation MK2, maxskills, 2x 1600RT, DC-II, 2x EANM-II, 1x thermal T2, 2x Trimark II, HG slave set, Akemon's ZET5000.
(4805+2*4200) * 1.25 * 1.5 * 1.2 * 1.2 * 1.53 (aprox) * 1.08 = 58913.8 armor HP
With resists 85.03047991 / 92.51523995 / 85.96607491 / 87.48670359
That's 393558 / 787116 / 419795 / 470809 worth of damage just to get through the armor, WITH NO REPAIR.
Put a single T1 large remote armor repairer on it (average transfered 65/sec), and it perma-tanks 434/868/463/519 DPS.
_
Complaint vs whine | Char creation guide | Stacknerfs explained |
kessah
Blood Corsair's
The Red Skull
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Posted - 2007.08.24 08:52:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Akita T
Damnation MK2, maxskills, 2x 1600RT, DC-II, 2x EANM-II, 1x thermal T2, 2x Trimark II, HG slave set, Akemon's ZET5000.
(4805+2*4200) * 1.25 * 1.5 * 1.2 * 1.2 * 1.53 (aprox) * 1.08 = 58913.8 armor HP
With resists 85.03047991 / 92.51523995 / 85.96607491 / 87.48670359
That's 393558 / 787116 / 419795 / 470809 worth of damage just to get through the armor, WITH NO REPAIR.
Put a single T1 large remote armor repairer on it (average transfered 65/sec), and it perma-tanks 434/868/463/519 DPS.
insane
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[Video] Forever Pirate 3
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Aeternita
Amarr
DRUCKWELLE
Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.08.24 10:20:00 -
[26]
first, it wont fit.
with 5 HAM launcher and mwd you wont have enough powergrid to fit it.
second, EFT says that with your setup you will have "only" 39k Armor HP.
but still impressive :)
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Signature currently not avialable |
il sakasanje
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Posted - 2007.08.24 11:11:00 -
[27]
a good gang > every fitting
a good gang < a better gang
I killed a plated Setup(Geddon) today. Took a while but he was going down and couldn't do nothing, because i was remote repped :-) I only fear plated Setups on better Gangs, Spider-Repping ftw.
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twit brent
Dark Centuri Inc.
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.08.24 11:26:00 -
[28]
I might use active tanks when CCP stops lasers from using stupid ammounts of cap.
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nakKEDK
Gallente
North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.08.24 11:33:00 -
[29]
Edited by: nakKEDK on 24/08/2007 11:35:23
Originally by: anillation
Originally by: Arakidias
So you got ganked by people who developed new and better tactics and you failed to adapt?
Disclaimer: this poster is a carebear extraordinaire and knows nothing about pvp.
ROFL! I still run my myrm, ishkur, and brutix with no plate. So not everyone runs plates.
maybe that beacuse its stupid to plate those ships, except a gank myrmidon 
btw amarr whiners cap usage on laser, if you have skills they use about same amount as blaster/rails
dont bother arguing with me, cause im allways right. Well at least sometimes. |
Daelin Blackleaf
No Joy Corp
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Posted - 2007.08.24 13:20:00 -
[30]
In general plate set-ups have become far superior to reps due to the nature of focused fire and the length of combat.
Increasing HP to increase combat time wasn't balanced with a enough of a boost to reppers to balance passive vs active tanks.
If you can get x mins of survival out of a few plates with no cap use, and you can almost guarantee any fight you could expect to win will be over within that timeframe then there is no reason at all to fit a repper.
Imho active tanking should be superior due to the cap use and fitting requirements, while passive tanks should still be viable for focus fire situations (ie fleet), cap control situations, and those who simply do not wish to spare the fitting for an active tank. Remote repping should benefit both equally (which it pretty much does as it is most effected by the resists on the ship).
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