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iiOs The Cry of Mankind	Posted - 2007.09.05 19:02:00 - [61] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 05/09/2007 18:58:52 Originally by: iiOs ishtar got delay on dps but its still uber compared to any hac, cerb just sux, on zealot you can switch ranges at will in seconds and go to high dps again, or if you want, it can have very nice tank, again, im not saying that zealot is very good hac, its ok hac and i dont see reason to boost it up to ishtar level Cerb sucks because you cant fly it? You dont know how to fly it? Or maybe because carebears in cerbs you kill have no idea how ot use it? Anyways its not a topic abt cerb. Boosting zealot to 5 turrets wont even bring it close to Ishtar. Still less damage at long range, tad more with short (unless ishtar uses its med guns it has bonus for), still only 3 mids, easier to ECM, easier to dampen or tracking disrupt. Even easier to neutralise. cerb, 5xhamII 2bcII, 30km range? 440 dps and 0 possebility for tank with hams ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- BB
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.05 19:03:00 - [62] duno how you get 800 dps out of deimos 5x hammer 5x neutron + void 3x magstab Gang setup only 794 dps maxskill.
iiOs The Cry of Mankind	Posted - 2007.09.05 19:05:00 - [63] Originally by: Deva Blackfire duno how you get 800 dps out of deimos 5x hammer 5x neutron + void 3x magstab Gang setup only 794 dps maxskill. yea, "gang setup", how survivable is that setup?;) plus drones got a delay, with lasers you do dm right away ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- BB
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.05 19:05:00 - [64] Originally by: iiOs cerb, 5xhamII 2bcII, 30km range? 440 dps and 0 possebility for tank with hams 3x BCU, RCU (PG rig probably, dont remember exactly how i fit mine), DG shieldboost, MWD, injector. Maybe it was 2x rcu 2x bcu... sue me i dont remember now. Anyways very good constant damage missile platform. Loved it in gangs.
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.05 19:07:00 - [65] Originally by: iiOs Originally by: Deva Blackfire duno how you get 800 dps out of deimos 5x hammer 5x neutron + void 3x magstab Gang setup only 794 dps maxskill. yea, "gang setup", how survivable is that setup?;) plus drones got a delay, with lasers you do dm right away Please stop with "delay" thing. Drones go over 2km/s, when you are in blaster range its one whooping second delay. The drone/missile delay might be important when it takes 10 seconds to reach target, but not when you cant even fire another salvo before they attack. Also i said "gang setup" - i hope you know how to fly in gangs? And hope you heard abt logistic drones/ships and damps/ecm?
iiOs The Cry of Mankind	Posted - 2007.09.05 19:13:00 - [66] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: iiOs Originally by: Deva Blackfire duno how you get 800 dps out of deimos 5x hammer 5x neutron + void 3x magstab Gang setup only 794 dps maxskill. yea, "gang setup", how survivable is that setup?;) plus drones got a delay, with lasers you do dm right away Please stop with "delay" thing. Drones go over 2km/s, when you are in blaster range its one whooping second delay. The drone/missile delay might be important when it takes 10 seconds to reach target, but not when you cant even fire another salvo before they attack. Also i said "gang setup" - i hope you know how to fly in gangs? And hope you heard abt logistic drones/ships and damps/ecm? you need to release drones, then tell them to attack, then there is lagg, all take time you know, deimos supposue to do lots of dm? plus it got short range? ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- BB
Brodde Dim	Posted - 2007.09.05 19:13:00 - [67] I agree Zealot could use a boost. 5 guns wouldnt make it overpower compared to the other HACs imo. Eagle could use a fith turret instead of a launcher slot too I think. Cerberus, Ishtar, Deimos, Sacrilege and Muninn are fine. I guess Vagabond is fine too, even though it feels overpowered in the hands of a skilled pilot (not only SP), and pretty weak when I fly it :(
Siakel	Posted - 2007.09.05 19:13:00 - [68] Originally by: iiOs cerb, 5xhamII 2bcII, 30km range? 440 dps and 0 possebility for tank with hams Wrong. Cerb, 5x HAM II, 3x BCU II, 45km (Faction) to 185km (Javs) range, huge HP buffer, capless weapons, 525 DPS, better DPS tanked than Zealot. Downside? Gang-only, though it can lower it's tank a bit for a scram if needed. And as to the reason we don't use implants? Because none of the DPS numbers listed for the other HACs have implants either. Comparing one with implants vs the other without implants=bad results. And the Zealot with five turrets would still be outdamaged by the Deimos, Ishtar, and Muninn, about equal to the Vaga and Cerb, and outdamage the Eagle and Sacrilege, but have a far weaker tank than either of those, and be weaker to EW than any other HAC in EVE so please, tell me why it should have weak DPS on top of it's page-long list of other weaknesses?
iiOs The Cry of Mankind	Posted - 2007.09.05 19:18:00 - [69] whatever, it will take like 3 years to get it done by CCP anyway ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- BB
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2007.09.05 19:33:00 - [70] You guys can't just compare DPS on HACs... Most HACs have more mids and/or a dronebay which can be used as EW! Zealot can not use EW in any practical form (whether mods or drones). It NEEDS to be a ganky ship. Hell even the Deimos can use 5 medium ECM drones, and those suckers can be nasty.
Vaine Amarr Amarr Upright Citizens Brigade	Posted - 2007.09.05 19:54:00 - [71] I agree, zealot should get a 5th gun. But this thread aint gonna make it happen __________________________ It's great beeing Amarr, ain't it? O rly?
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.09.05 20:02:00 - [72] Originally by: Kruel You guys can't just compare DPS on HACs... Most HACs have more mids and/or a dronebay which can be used as EW! Zealot can not use EW in any practical form (whether mods or drones). It NEEDS to be a ganky ship. Hell even the Deimos can use 5 medium ECM drones, and those suckers can be nasty. deimos also has much shorter range, as the range bonus on the zealot can be quite useful. Deimos doing more damage than the zealot is prolly ok....but i think its also faster now... in terms of raw damage potential, zealot only outdamages the eagle(with rails). Then you add in the other weaknesses: 1. Most cap using weapons 2. Bad Damage types 3. Lack of med slots 4. Lack of drones 5. 3 and 4 also mean complete lack of EW (ie, no TD or damp tossed in for free like on ishtar) 6. Very vulnerable to damps (muninn has same lock range, vaga only hac with less, but is faster) 7. very vulnerable to ECM (lowest sensor strength, shared with muninn) 8. Very vulnerable to Turret disruptors (lasers effect most due to low pulse tracking and reliance on optimal range) 9. Second lowest damage POTENTIAL so, diemos and vaga are faster (diemos due to less mass so better mwd) and both can outdamage zealot (true, most dont fly vaga in this way), all others have similar range abilities and more damage. Eagle could be fitted with blasters for more damage i guess, otherwise its just way out there where zealot cant touch it. The Zealot needs SOMETHING. i dont know if 5th turret is the way to go, but SOMETHING. omen has a drone bay, why not the zealot? Originally by: Snuggly It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.09.05 20:34:00 - [73] Originally by: iiOs Originally by: Deva Blackfire Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 05/09/2007 18:58:52 Originally by: iiOs ishtar got delay on dps but its still uber compared to any hac, cerb just sux, on zealot you can switch ranges at will in seconds and go to high dps again, or if you want, it can have very nice tank, again, im not saying that zealot is very good hac, its ok hac and i dont see reason to boost it up to ishtar level Cerb sucks because you cant fly it? You dont know how to fly it? Or maybe because carebears in cerbs you kill have no idea how ot use it? Anyways its not a topic abt cerb. Boosting zealot to 5 turrets wont even bring it close to Ishtar. Still less damage at long range, tad more with short (unless ishtar uses its med guns it has bonus for), still only 3 mids, easier to ECM, easier to dampen or tracking disrupt. Even easier to neutralise. cerb, 5xhamII 2bcII, 30km range? 440 dps and 0 possebility for tank with hams It goes 2800m/s with that setup with two MSE's, is cap stable and has no tracking issues. It also has 40km range. Tech II, a cerberus in a skirmish gang scrambles to 32km, hits to 40km doing 440 dps and goes 4100m/s. The only thing that is wrong with the cerberus is the problems that affect all Missile ships. 1 Missiles take a too long to hit if you dont have a velocity bonus. 2 HAMs and Siege Launchers fitting is much too high, they have long range fitting for short range range[but their ranges are too far now]
Durethia Momentum. The Reckoning.	Posted - 2007.09.05 20:35:00 - [74] If the Zealot get's an extra gun, then the Deimos should get an extra turret slot too. Or the Deimos should get a third damage bonus.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.09.05 20:41:00 - [75] Originally by: Durethia If the Zealot get's an extra gun, then the Deimos should get an extra turret slot too. Or the Deimos should get a third damage bonus. The Deimos already outdamages the Zealot, will continue to outdamage the zealot, and would outdamage the Zealot even if the deimos pilot were flying without drones.
Waxau Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2007.09.05 20:50:00 - [76] Originally by: Lisento Slaven The Zealot is boring and is outclassed by the harbinger. Harbinger is better than Zealot in my opinion =P um dude...Sorry but that just makes you a total nub. Most HACs wont stand up well to a decent BC. And you're comparing it to a harbinger? My Vulture does the same dps as an eagle. And my eagle does less dps than your zealot. Hows that for justice? Stop whining, and play the game.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.05 21:09:00 - [77] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Originally by: Kagura Nikon maybe an extra turret would be a bit over. Maybe just change the damage bonus to another rof bonus? (effectively 10% rof per level). Would be an extra 8% damage. No. Cap would go out crazy fast that way. A 5th turret would be fine. and a 5th turret would not use cap? for sure it would.. exactly 25% more cap form guns. Also cap can be adjusted increasing base cap of zealot. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
king jks Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.05 21:15:00 - [78] Actually in most if not all cases the vulture will do more or equal damage than the eagle, given it has 5 turrets instead of 4, and the with HAC 5 you get 1.25 which bring effective up to 5 making it equal, but anway. The zealot does need something, and the only people that would say it doesn't need something to make it worth using are the people that have never flown it. A lot of the people say its good because it can be very tanky, given the 7 low slots, but when you think about it, the deimos has 6. Also the resist bonus on the sac makes it a better tanker. 4 turrets with no drone bay makes its dps very very small. ...but will it blend?
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.09.05 21:24:00 - [79] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Originally by: Kagura Nikon maybe an extra turret would be a bit over. Maybe just change the damage bonus to another rof bonus? (effectively 10% rof per level). Would be an extra 8% damage. No. Cap would go out crazy fast that way. A 5th turret would be fine. and a 5th turret would not use cap? for sure it would.. exactly 25% more cap form guns. Also cap can be adjusted increasing base cap of zealot. slaps head D'oh! Gah, of course, you are right. However, let's not forget that T2 lenses would shatter faster too. And I still think that a 5th turret wouldn't be too much to ask.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.09.05 21:33:00 - [80] Edited by: Goumindong on 05/09/2007 21:35:31 Edited by: Goumindong on 05/09/2007 21:34:03 Originally by: Waxau Originally by: Lisento Slaven The Zealot is boring and is outclassed by the harbinger. Harbinger is better than Zealot in my opinion =P um dude...Sorry but that just makes you a total nub. Most HACs wont stand up well to a decent BC. And you're comparing it to a harbinger? My Vulture does the same dps as an eagle. And my eagle does less dps than your zealot. Hows that for justice? Stop whining, and play the game. Actually the Eagle isnt that far behind the Zealot[at 426 dps, or 451 if you only want one LSE] and the Vulture actualy does more, at 546 dps[or 572 with only one LSE]. Not that they are better close range ships, but in terms of DPS, they arent that far off. Unless you are talking about the long range, where the Vulture and Eagle **** all over the Zealot for the most part[above about 90km].
Ferocious FeAr Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.05 21:46:00 - [81] It doesn't need another gun slot. Want poor dps for a hac? Fly an eagle, fly a cerberus. Thank you very much. You can close this thread now. Don't hate me, learn to love me
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.09.05 21:49:00 - [82] Originally by: Ferocious FeAr It doesn't need another gun slot. Want poor dps for a hac? Fly an eagle, fly a cerberus. Thank you very much. You can close this thread now. So because the Eagle and the Cerb have poor DPS, the Zealot should too? What kind of logic is that?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.09.05 21:50:00 - [83] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Originally by: Kagura Nikon maybe an extra turret would be a bit over. Maybe just change the damage bonus to another rof bonus? (effectively 10% rof per level). Would be an extra 8% damage. No. Cap would go out crazy fast that way. A 5th turret would be fine. and a 5th turret would not use cap? for sure it would.. exactly 25% more cap form guns. Also cap can be adjusted increasing base cap of zealot. The difference is that you get 25% more dps instead of 6.56% more dps for it[not 8%] A compromise might be to change the rof bonus to a damage bonus and then add another turret. Now the DPS change is only about 17.3%, but cap use is cut by 6.25% Though i would prefer the more DPS to be honest.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.09.05 21:52:00 - [84] Originally by: Ferocious FeAr It doesn't need another gun slot. Want poor dps for a hac? Fly an eagle, fly a cerberus. Thank you very much. You can close this thread now. Cerb does 440 DPS to 40km without needing to worry about tracking, being cap stable, going 2800m/s, and having a decent tank. That aint bad.
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.09.05 21:53:00 - [85] Originally by: Ferocious FeAr It doesn't need another gun slot. Want poor dps for a hac? Fly an eagle, fly a cerberus. Thank you very much. You can close this thread now. Cerebus has pretty decent DPS, incredible long range, no tracking and a good tank, all at once. Eagle needs a fifth turret. Zealot needs a fifth turret.
twit brent Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.09.05 21:57:00 - [86] Boost the zealot I say. Not only does it deal low dmg but that dmg is restricted to EM + thermal to do it. Also no drone bay ect.
Ferocious FeAr Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.05 22:03:00 - [87] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Ferocious FeAr It doesn't need another gun slot. Want poor dps for a hac? Fly an eagle, fly a cerberus. Thank you very much. You can close this thread now. Cerb does 440 DPS to 40km without needing to worry about tracking, being cap stable, going 2800m/s, and having a decent tank. That aint bad. That's a gank fitting, I'm talking about tank. Let's just say we are talking about gank, the Zealot still outperforms the Cerberus on damage. I can confirm with EFT if you wish. As for the guy who is talking about my logic, EFT doesn't lie my friend. Don't hate me, learn to love me
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.09.05 22:08:00 - [88] Originally by: Ferocious FeAr Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Ferocious FeAr It doesn't need another gun slot. Want poor dps for a hac? Fly an eagle, fly a cerberus. Thank you very much. You can close this thread now. Cerb does 440 DPS to 40km without needing to worry about tracking, being cap stable, going 2800m/s, and having a decent tank. That aint bad. That's a gank fitting, I'm talking about tank. Let's just say we are talking about gank, the Zealot still outperforms the Cerberus on damage. I can confirm with EFT if you wish. As for the guy who is talking about my logic, EFT doesn't lie my friend. You making no sense. Your original statement basically read, "caldari HACs have sucky damage... so no boost for anyone :emo:" Oh and you ompletely avoided what goum just said. IT can have good DPS, a good tank, fly fast, and not worry about tracking all at the same time.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.09.05 22:10:00 - [89] Originally by: Ferocious FeAr Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Ferocious FeAr It doesn't need another gun slot. Want poor dps for a hac? Fly an eagle, fly a cerberus. Thank you very much. You can close this thread now. Cerb does 440 DPS to 40km without needing to worry about tracking, being cap stable, going 2800m/s, and having a decent tank. That aint bad. That's a gank fitting, I'm talking about tank. Let's just say we are talking about gank, the Zealot still outperforms the Cerberus on damage. I can confirm with EFT if you wish. As for the guy who is talking about my logic, EFT doesn't lie my friend. My EFT says a Zealot does 454 DPS with Amarr Navy MF M @ 10km, and the Cerb does 494 DPS w/ Caldary Navy Terror Assault Missiles at 40km. I would love to see how you get more than 494 DPS with a Zealot, let alone do that at 40km.
Ferocious FeAr Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.05 22:10:00 - [90] Originally by: shinsushi Originally by: Ferocious FeAr Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Ferocious FeAr It doesn't need another gun slot. Want poor dps for a hac? Fly an eagle, fly a cerberus. Thank you very much. You can close this thread now. Cerb does 440 DPS to 40km without needing to worry about tracking, being cap stable, going 2800m/s, and having a decent tank. That aint bad. That's a gank fitting, I'm talking about tank. Let's just say we are talking about gank, the Zealot still outperforms the Cerberus on damage. I can confirm with EFT if you wish. As for the guy who is talking about my logic, EFT doesn't lie my friend. You making no sense. Your original statement basically read, "caldari HACs have sucky damage... so no boost for anyone :emo:" Oh and you ompletely avoided what goum just said. IT can have good DPS, a good tank, fly fast, and not worry about tracking all at the same time. My original post was intended to show you that the Zealot doesn't need a boost, the eagle and cerberus does worse damage when fit for damage or gank. Maybe you need to work on your English comprehension. Do me a favor, stop talking. Don't hate me, learn to love me

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