Originally by: iiOs

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give vaga 2 more turret slots and 1 high!!

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Originally by: iiOs

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give vaga 2 more turret slots and 1 high!!

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Originally by: LUKEC

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Originally by: iiOs

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give vaga 2 more turret slots and 1 high!!

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Why? :D

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Originally by: Markus Aurelian

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Originally by: iiOs

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give vaga 2 more turret slots and 1 high!!

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sure if you drop a mid and take a mass penalty

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Originally by: iiOs

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Originally by: Markus Aurelian

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Originally by: iiOs

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give vaga 2 more turret slots and 1 high!!

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sure if you drop a mid and take a mass penalty

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sure, then give zealot 1 turret, but then it got to loose one med slot to be gang ship ;)

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Originally by: iiOs

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Originally by: LUKEC

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Originally by: iiOs

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give vaga 2 more turret slots and 1 high!!

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Why? :D

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for same reason zealot need to do 625 dps ;)

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Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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maybe an extra turret would be a bit over. Maybe just change the damage bonus to another rof bonus? (effectively 10% rof per level). Would be an extra 8% damage.

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Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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maybe an extra turret would be a bit over. Maybe just change the damage bonus to another rof bonus? (effectively 10% rof per level). Would be an extra 8% damage.

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Originally by: iiOs

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giving it 5th turret slot makes no sence, only hac that need to be looked at is eagle and munin imo

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Originally by: Ather Ialeas

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Originally by: iiOs

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Originally by: LUKEC

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Originally by: iiOs

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give vaga 2 more turret slots and 1 high!!

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Why? :D

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for same reason zealot need to do 625 dps ;)

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625? OK...

All lvl5:
1 Heavy Beam Laser II(Gleam M) DPS 61, alpha 199
4 Heavy Beam Laser II(Gleam M) DPS 246, alpha 797
1 Heavy Beam Laser II(Gleam M)+1 Heat Sink II DPS 76, alpha 219
4 Heavy Beam Laser II(Gleam M)+1 Heat Sink II DPS 302, alpha 877
1 Heavy Beam Laser II(Gleam M)+2 Heat Sink II DPS 90, alpha 238
4 Heavy Beam Laser II(Gleam M)+2 Heat Sink II DPS 362, alpha 953
1 Heavy Beam Laser II(Gleam M)+3 Heat Sink II DPS 102, alpha 252
4 Heavy Beam Laser II(Gleam M)+3 Heat Sink II DPS 407, alpha 1007
1 Heavy Beam Laser II(Gleam M)+4 Heat Sink II DPS 108, alpha 259
4 Heavy Beam Laser II(Gleam M)+4 Heat Sink II DPS 431, alpha 1036

or

1 Heavy Pulse Laser II(Conflagration M) DPS 70, alpha 199
4 Heavy Pulse Laser II(Conflagration M) DPS 281, alpha 797
1 Heavy Pulse Laser II(Conflagration M)+1 Heat Sink II DPS 86, alpha 219
4 Heavy Pulse Laser II(Conflagration M)+1 Heat Sink II DPS 345, alpha 877
1 Heavy Pulse Laser II(Conflagration M)+2 Heat Sink II DPS 103, alpha 238
4 Heavy Pulse Laser II(Conflagration M)+2 Heat Sink II DPS 413, alpha 953
1 Heavy Pulse Laser II(Conflagration M)+3 Heat Sink II DPS 116, alpha 252
4 Heavy Pulse Laser II(Conflagration M)+3 Heat Sink II DPS 465, alpha 1007
1 Heavy Pulse Laser II(Conflagration M)+4 Heat Sink II DPS 123, alpha 259
4 Heavy Pulse Laser II(Conflagration M)+4 Heat Sink II DPS 492, alpha 1036

which means

5 Heavy Beam Laser II(Gleam M) DPS 305, alpha 995
5 Heavy Beam Laser II(Gleam M)+1 Heat Sink II DPS 378, alpha 1096
5 Heavy Beam Laser II(Gleam M)+2 Heat Sink II DPS 452, alpha 1191
5 Heavy Beam Laser II(Gleam M)+3 Heat Sink II DPS 509, alpha 1259
5 Heavy Beam Laser II(Gleam M)+4 Heat Sink II DPS 539, alpha 1295
5 Heavy Pulse Laser II(Conflagration M) DPS 70, alpha 199
5 Heavy Pulse Laser II(Conflagration M)+1 Heat Sink II DPS 431, alpha 1096
5 Heavy Pulse Laser II(Conflagration M)+2 Heat Sink II DPS 516, alpha 1191
5 Heavy Pulse Laser II(Conflagration M)+3 Heat Sink II DPS 581, alpha 1259
5 Heavy Pulse Laser II(Conflagration M)+4 Heat Sink II DPS 615, alpha 1295
(numbers may be a bit off due to rounding but shouldn't be more than +-5 DPS)

Dunno, sounds reasonable for me considering there's only three lows left which mean either passive armor tank which most likely won't fit or MARII+nanos which forces one to use only Cap Recharger II:s in mids or you'll run out of cap. Or spend 60M on rigs to get it run guns + afterburner. Which would force one to use passive armor tank.

One possible setup with current limitations would be as follows:
5* Heavy Pulse II, 10MN MWD II, Warp Scrambler II, 1* Cap Recharger, 4* Heat Sink II, Capacitor Power Relay II, Medium Armor Repairer II, 400mm Rolled Tungsten - rather standard "speed to extreme close distance, switch from MWD to repper. Just add hope that target dies before you run out of cap" setup. STANDARD resistances!

Do the normal Amarr whine factoring (high EM resistances, tracking, range, lack of midslots etc.) and you'll soon see that it wouldn't be that bad in the end since it would still keep Zealot as gang ship due to lack of tackling and it would really make it a gankboat while Sacrilege would still be the tank.


tl;dr

Yes.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: iiOs

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giving it 5th turret slot makes no sence, only hac that need to be looked at is eagle and munin imo

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You would be wrong.

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Originally by: Markus Aurelian

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im pretty sure the zealot was balanced for unstacknerfed damagemods, allowing it to dish out omgwtfpwn dps, however now it suffers from lack of mids, which i dont mind so much as the 4 turrets. vagabond, deimos, muninn, etc all have more turrets than the amarrian turretboat. the only one as borked as the zealot in that regard is the eagle, but that ship needs more than just an extra turret. an extra turret would add much needed dps, and i dont really think it would be overpowered, since other ships get their turrets with similar fitting and slot layouts

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Originally by: Markus Aurelian

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im pretty sure the zealot was balanced for unstacknerfed damagemods, allowing it to dish out omgwtfpwn dps, however now it suffers from lack of mids, which i dont mind so much as the 4 turrets. vagabond, deimos, muninn, etc all have more turrets than the amarrian turretboat. the only one as borked as the zealot in that regard is the eagle, but that ship needs more than just an extra turret. an extra turret would add much needed dps, and i dont really think it would be overpowered, since other ships get their turrets with similar fitting and slot layouts

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Originally by: iiOs

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Originally by: Markus Aurelian

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im pretty sure the zealot was balanced for unstacknerfed damagemods, allowing it to dish out omgwtfpwn dps, however now it suffers from lack of mids, which i dont mind so much as the 4 turrets. vagabond, deimos, muninn, etc all have more turrets than the amarrian turretboat. the only one as borked as the zealot in that regard is the eagle, but that ship needs more than just an extra turret. an extra turret would add much needed dps, and i dont really think it would be overpowered, since other ships get their turrets with similar fitting and slot layouts

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you can use that argument with pritty much any ship

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Originally by: Lisento Slaven

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Harbinger is better than Zealot in my opinion =P

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Originally by: Ishina Fel

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The Zealot looked pretty ganky to me when one team in the alliance tournament used it as one of their main damage sources...

It's really not the worst HAC around. Of course it can't compare with the Deimos anymore now, but few cruiser size ships can.

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Originally by: Ishina Fel

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Originally by: Lisento Slaven

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Harbinger is better than Zealot in my opinion =P

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Oh yeah! And the Armageddon is even more uber! Please buff cruiser class vessels so they're as good as or better than their bigger brethren!

</sarcasm>

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Originally by: Securion Wolfheart

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You guys dont understand... its an Amarr ship. It must be worse than all the other races ships. Its a law.

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Originally by: iiOs

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zealot does 500 dps with 4 turrets and 3 HS, how much will it do with 5turrets? take a gues

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Originally by: Siakel

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Originally by: iiOs

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zealot does 500 dps with 4 turrets and 3 HS, how much will it do with 5turrets? take a gues

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Now I know you're just a troll and you're going to ignore any facts or evidence thrown at you... but here's to hoping other people will read this.


The Zealot, with 3 HS II and Conflag, with max skills, does 465 DPS. With a Fifth turret, Conflag, and 3 HS IIs it would do 581 DPS. This while being extremely cap-intensive, weak to every form of EVE in EVE, limited damage types, no drone bay, and having a weak tank.

Now, more realistically, a Zealot will be using Amarr Navy Multi at shortrange. Bad tracking Pulses+50% tracking hit+fairly fast ship=bad.

This means it'd be doing 572 DPS with 5 HP II and 3 HS II. While still having a bad tank, limited damage types, severe cap issues, no drone bay, and still be extremely vulnerable to every type of EW in EVE.

So really, I don't see any problem with giving it a fifth turret. It finally gets gank-HAC DPS (Though still far lower than the Deimos, and less than the AC-Muninn), and keeps all of it's old weaknesses and vulnerabilities.

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Originally by: James CX

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Ios you are trying to sabotage so please stfu... :)

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Originally by: iiOs

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Edited by: iiOs on 05/09/2007 18:19:17
Edited by: iiOs on 05/09/2007 18:12:52

Originally by: Siakel

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Originally by: iiOs

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constructive post

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mouth diarrhea

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In Ships and modules we compare ships against each other based upon maxxed skills and fitting modules/rigs. Bringing implants into the equation is superfluous due to the canceling effect they would have (i.e. a 5% lrg laser turret dmg implant = 5% lrg hybrid turret dmg implant.)

Please stop posting


_________________________________________________
Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level and beat you down with experience.

Originally by: iiOs

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Edited by: iiOs on 05/09/2007 18:19:17
Edited by: iiOs on 05/09/2007 18:12:52

Originally by: Siakel

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Originally by: iiOs

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zealot does 500 dps with 4 turrets and 3 HS, how much will it do with 5turrets? take a gues

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Now I know you're just a troll and you're going to ignore any facts or evidence thrown at you... but here's to hoping other people will read this.


The Zealot, with 3 HS II and Conflag, with max skills, does 465 DPS. With a Fifth turret, Conflag, and 3 HS IIs it would do 581 DPS. This while being extremely cap-intensive, weak to every form of EVE in EVE, limited damage types, no drone bay, and having a weak tank.

Now, more realistically, a Zealot will be using Amarr Navy Multi at shortrange. Bad tracking Pulses+50% tracking hit+fairly fast ship=bad.

This means it'd be doing 572 DPS with 5 HP II and 3 HS II. While still having a bad tank, limited damage types, severe cap issues, no drone bay, and still be extremely vulnerable to every type of EW in EVE.

So really, I don't see any problem with giving it a fifth turret. It finally gets gank-HAC DPS (Though still far lower than the Deimos, and less than the AC-Muninn), and keeps all of it's old weaknesses and vulnerabilities.

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get your math straight noob

implants :wink: :wink:

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Originally by: magnus amadeus

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Originally by: iiOs

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Edited by: iiOs on 05/09/2007 18:19:17
Edited by: iiOs on 05/09/2007 18:12:52

Originally by: Siakel

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Originally by: iiOs

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constructive post

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mouth diarrhea

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In Ships and modules we compare ships against each other based upon maxxed skills and fitting modules/rigs. Bringing implants into the equation is superfluous due to the canceling effect they would have (i.e. a 5% lrg laser turret dmg implant = 5% lrg hybrid turret dmg implant.)

Please stop posting

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since we are talking max skills and pilots who have max skills for hacs surly have best implants, and its least 10% dm( not sure if there is rof for med energy and for all turrets, then its even more), and 10 of 465 is 46.5, bringing dps to 511.5

nice try tho



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BB

Originally by: Ather Ialeas

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Originally by: iiOs

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Edited by: iiOs on 05/09/2007 18:19:17
Edited by: iiOs on 05/09/2007 18:12:52

Originally by: Siakel

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Originally by: iiOs

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zealot does 500 dps with 4 turrets and 3 HS, how much will it do with 5turrets? take a gues

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Now I know you're just a troll and you're going to ignore any facts or evidence thrown at you... but here's to hoping other people will read this.


The Zealot, with 3 HS II and Conflag, with max skills, does 465 DPS. With a Fifth turret, Conflag, and 3 HS IIs it would do 581 DPS. This while being extremely cap-intensive, weak to every form of EVE in EVE, limited damage types, no drone bay, and having a weak tank.

Now, more realistically, a Zealot will be using Amarr Navy Multi at shortrange. Bad tracking Pulses+50% tracking hit+fairly fast ship=bad.

This means it'd be doing 572 DPS with 5 HP II and 3 HS II. While still having a bad tank, limited damage types, severe cap issues, no drone bay, and still be extremely vulnerable to every type of EW in EVE.

So really, I don't see any problem with giving it a fifth turret. It finally gets gank-HAC DPS (Though still far lower than the Deimos, and less than the AC-Muninn), and keeps all of it's old weaknesses and vulnerabilities.

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get your math straight noob

implants :wink: :wink:

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We (and especially you) are already relying on the impossible lvl5 everything scenario for damage output and now you want to add those fancy implants too which not that many actually use due to their cost - well, at least not the +5% ones, +3%:s maybe.

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Originally by: Lisento Slaven

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no one really cares about implants in this section anyways.

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Originally by: Lisento Slaven

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Do you think buying the best implants is really an acceptable trade off and justification for the Zealot in its current state compared to its role and the roles of similar ships in EVE?

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Originally by: iiOs

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since we are talking max skills and pilots who have max skills for hacs surly have best implants, and its least 10% dm( not sure if there is rof for med energy and for all turrets, then its even more), and 10 of 465 is 46.5, bringing dps to 511.5

nice try tho

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Originally by: iiOs

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Originally by: Lisento Slaven

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Do you think buying the best implants is really an acceptable trade off and justification for the Zealot in its current state compared to its role and the roles of similar ships in EVE?

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fine, dont use implants, i was just making point about possible dps on zealot

so lets take 464 dps, with 5 guns its 580DPS, now take a look at other hacs and tell me why zealot should do so much dps

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Originally by: iiOs

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Originally by: Lisento Slaven

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Do you think buying the best implants is really an acceptable trade off and justification for the Zealot in its current state compared to its role and the roles of similar ships in EVE?

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fine, dont use implants, i was just making point about possible dps on zealot

so lets take 464 dps, with 5 guns its 580DPS, now take a look at other hacs and tell me why zealot should do so much dps

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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Originally by: iiOs

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since we are talking max skills and pilots who have max skills for hacs surly have best implants, and its least 10% dm( not sure if there is rof for med energy and for all turrets, then its even more), and 10 of 465 is 46.5, bringing dps to 511.5

nice try tho

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You are pretty stupid, arent you? All setups are compared w/o implants because for ex. there are no drone damage implants + not everyone flies with em. If you want to troll go to CAOD, thats a good place for people like you.

Onfortunaytely you fail to see that zealot has mediciore (at best) HAC damage, is VERY cap intensive and except for that it doesnt do anything better than others. Its not best gank HAC (sacri, deimos are better), its not better tanker (sacri again can outtank it), it even lacks drone bay.

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 05/09/2007 18:44:08

Originally by: iiOs

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Originally by: Lisento Slaven

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Do you think buying the best implants is really an acceptable trade off and justification for the Zealot in its current state compared to its role and the roles of similar ships in EVE?

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fine, dont use implants, i was just making point about possible dps on zealot

so lets take 464 dps, with 5 guns its 580DPS, now take a look at other hacs and tell me why zealot should do so much dps

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Possible? then use officer sinks. 7 of them. Plus 7% rof and 7% damage implants. Dont tell me there arent people who cant afford that...

EDIT:
ops i think its only 5% damage tops for energy turrets... not sure on this one

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Originally by: iiOs

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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Originally by: iiOs

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since we are talking max skills and pilots who have max skills for hacs surly have best implants, and its least 10% dm( not sure if there is rof for med energy and for all turrets, then its even more), and 10 of 465 is 46.5, bringing dps to 511.5

nice try tho

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You are pretty stupid, arent you? All setups are compared w/o implants because for ex. there are no drone damage implants + not everyone flies with em. If you want to troll go to CAOD, thats a good place for people like you.

Onfortunaytely you fail to see that zealot has mediciore (at best) HAC damage, is VERY cap intensive and except for that it doesnt do anything better than others. Its not best gank HAC (sacri, deimos are better), its not better tanker (sacri again can outtank it), it even lacks drone bay.

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so, it needs to be best hac? do i get you right? because amarr got to have best hacs?, you should have trained gallente ;)

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Originally by: Lisento Slaven

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Originally by: iiOs

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Originally by: Lisento Slaven

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Do you think buying the best implants is really an acceptable trade off and justification for the Zealot in its current state compared to its role and the roles of similar ships in EVE?

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fine, dont use implants, i was just making point about possible dps on zealot

so lets take 464 dps, with 5 guns its 580DPS, now take a look at other hacs and tell me why zealot should do so much dps

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I'm arguing that there is no point to fly it. I'll let one of the other people who think it deserves a turret argue that one. Do you see any reason to fly the zealot though? =P

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 05/09/2007 18:45:45

Originally by: iiOs

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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Originally by: iiOs

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since we are talking max skills and pilots who have max skills for hacs surly have best implants, and its least 10% dm( not sure if there is rof for med energy and for all turrets, then its even more), and 10 of 465 is 46.5, bringing dps to 511.5

nice try tho

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You are pretty stupid, arent you? All setups are compared w/o implants because for ex. there are no drone damage implants + not everyone flies with em. If you want to troll go to CAOD, thats a good place for people like you.

Onfortunaytely you fail to see that zealot has mediciore (at best) HAC damage, is VERY cap intensive and except for that it doesnt do anything better than others. Its not best gank HAC (sacri, deimos are better), its not better tanker (sacri again can outtank it), it even lacks drone bay.

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so, it needs to be best hac? do i get you right? because amarr got to have best hacs?, you should have trained gallente ;)

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Told you if you want to smack or make funny remarks go to CAOD. I TRAINED gallente already for your info and i do fly em.

Thing is zealot lacks role in current form. Or rather: fails in role it was supposed to fill.

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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Originally by: iiOs

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and how does it fails at it?, what do you want it to do? kill titans?, it does perfectly well its role wich is medium range fighter

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"Medium" range damage is only 365 dps from Zealot. Medium range damage from ishtar, sacri, cerb is much higher (funny, heh - sacri is meant to be close range ship). Not sure abt vaga (cba to check in EFT now) but i guess that with drones it has comparable or higher damage.

So its even crappy "mid range fighter" when short range fighters outdamage him at said "mid" range.

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Originally by: iiOs

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ishtar got delay on dps but its still uber compared to any hac, cerb just sux, on zealot you can switch ranges at will in seconds and go to high dps again, or if you want, it can have very nice tank, again, im not saying that zealot is very good hac, its ok hac and i dont see reason to boost it up to ishtar level

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Originally by: magnus amadeus

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You do know that the vaga/muninn can both do around 600 DPS and the demios/ishtar can do about 800 right (ya gotta include drones)?

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 05/09/2007 18:58:52

Originally by: iiOs

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ishtar got delay on dps but its still uber compared to any hac, cerb just sux, on zealot you can switch ranges at will in seconds and go to high dps again, or if you want, it can have very nice tank, again, im not saying that zealot is very good hac, its ok hac and i dont see reason to boost it up to ishtar level

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Cerb sucks because you cant fly it? You dont know how to fly it? Or maybe because carebears in cerbs you kill have no idea how ot use it? Anyways its not a topic abt cerb.

Boosting zealot to 5 turrets wont even bring it close to Ishtar. Still less damage at long range, tad more with short (unless ishtar uses its med guns it has bonus for), still only 3 mids, easier to ECM, easier to dampen or tracking disrupt. Even easier to neutralise.

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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duno how you get 800 dps out of deimos

5x hammer
5x neutron + void
3x magstab

Gang setup only

794 dps maxskill.

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Originally by: iiOs

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cerb, 5xhamII 2bcII, 30km range? 440 dps and 0 possebility for tank with hams

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Originally by: iiOs

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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duno how you get 800 dps out of deimos

5x hammer
5x neutron + void
3x magstab

Gang setup only

794 dps maxskill.

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yea, "gang setup", how survivable is that setup?;) plus drones got a delay, with lasers you do dm right away

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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Originally by: iiOs

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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duno how you get 800 dps out of deimos

5x hammer
5x neutron + void
3x magstab

Gang setup only

794 dps maxskill.

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yea, "gang setup", how survivable is that setup?;) plus drones got a delay, with lasers you do dm right away

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Please stop with "delay" thing. Drones go over 2km/s, when you are in blaster range its one whooping second delay. The drone/missile delay might be important when it takes 10 seconds to reach target, but not when you cant even fire another salvo before they attack.

Also i said "gang setup" - i hope you know how to fly in gangs? And hope you heard abt logistic drones/ships and damps/ecm?

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Originally by: iiOs

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cerb, 5xhamII 2bcII, 30km range? 440 dps and 0 possebility for tank with hams

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Originally by: Kruel

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You guys can't just compare DPS on HACs... Most HACs have more mids and/or a dronebay which can be used as EW! Zealot can not use EW in any practical form (whether mods or drones). It NEEDS to be a ganky ship. Hell even the Deimos can use 5 medium ECM drones, and those suckers can be nasty.

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Originally by: Snuggly

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It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!

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Originally by: iiOs

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 05/09/2007 18:58:52

Originally by: iiOs

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ishtar got delay on dps but its still uber compared to any hac, cerb just sux, on zealot you can switch ranges at will in seconds and go to high dps again, or if you want, it can have very nice tank, again, im not saying that zealot is very good hac, its ok hac and i dont see reason to boost it up to ishtar level

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Cerb sucks because you cant fly it? You dont know how to fly it? Or maybe because carebears in cerbs you kill have no idea how ot use it? Anyways its not a topic abt cerb.

Boosting zealot to 5 turrets wont even bring it close to Ishtar. Still less damage at long range, tad more with short (unless ishtar uses its med guns it has bonus for), still only 3 mids, easier to ECM, easier to dampen or tracking disrupt. Even easier to neutralise.

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cerb, 5xhamII 2bcII, 30km range? 440 dps and 0 possebility for tank with hams

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Originally by: Durethia

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If the Zealot get's an extra gun, then the Deimos should get an extra turret slot too. Or the Deimos should get a third damage bonus.

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Originally by: Lisento Slaven

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The Zealot is boring and is outclassed by the harbinger.

Harbinger is better than Zealot in my opinion =P

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Originally by: Deschenus Maximus

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Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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maybe an extra turret would be a bit over. Maybe just change the damage bonus to another rof bonus? (effectively 10% rof per level). Would be an extra 8% damage.

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No. Cap would go out crazy fast that way. A 5th turret would be fine.

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Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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Originally by: Deschenus Maximus

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Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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maybe an extra turret would be a bit over. Maybe just change the damage bonus to another rof bonus? (effectively 10% rof per level). Would be an extra 8% damage.

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No. Cap would go out crazy fast that way. A 5th turret would be fine.

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and a 5th turret would not use cap? for sure it would.. exactly 25% more cap form guns. Also cap can be adjusted increasing base cap of zealot.

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Originally by: Waxau

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Originally by: Lisento Slaven

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The Zealot is boring and is outclassed by the harbinger.

Harbinger is better than Zealot in my opinion =P

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um dude...Sorry but that just makes you a total nub. Most HACs wont stand up well to a decent BC. And you're comparing it to a harbinger? My Vulture does the same dps as an eagle. And my eagle does less dps than your zealot. Hows that for justice?

Stop whining, and play the game.

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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It doesn't need another gun slot. Want poor dps for a hac? Fly an eagle, fly a cerberus.

Thank you very much. You can close this thread now.

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Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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Originally by: Deschenus Maximus

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Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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maybe an extra turret would be a bit over. Maybe just change the damage bonus to another rof bonus? (effectively 10% rof per level). Would be an extra 8% damage.

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No. Cap would go out crazy fast that way. A 5th turret would be fine.

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and a 5th turret would not use cap? for sure it would.. exactly 25% more cap form guns. Also cap can be adjusted increasing base cap of zealot.

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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It doesn't need another gun slot. Want poor dps for a hac? Fly an eagle, fly a cerberus.

Thank you very much. You can close this thread now.

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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It doesn't need another gun slot. Want poor dps for a hac? Fly an eagle, fly a cerberus.

Thank you very much. You can close this thread now.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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It doesn't need another gun slot. Want poor dps for a hac? Fly an eagle, fly a cerberus.

Thank you very much. You can close this thread now.

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Cerb does 440 DPS to 40km without needing to worry about tracking, being cap stable, going 2800m/s, and having a decent tank. That aint bad.

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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It doesn't need another gun slot. Want poor dps for a hac? Fly an eagle, fly a cerberus.

Thank you very much. You can close this thread now.

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Cerb does 440 DPS to 40km without needing to worry about tracking, being cap stable, going 2800m/s, and having a decent tank. That aint bad.

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That's a gank fitting, I'm talking about tank. Let's just say we are talking about gank, the Zealot still outperforms the Cerberus on damage. I can confirm with EFT if you wish.

As for the guy who is talking about my logic, EFT doesn't lie my friend.

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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It doesn't need another gun slot. Want poor dps for a hac? Fly an eagle, fly a cerberus.

Thank you very much. You can close this thread now.

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Cerb does 440 DPS to 40km without needing to worry about tracking, being cap stable, going 2800m/s, and having a decent tank. That aint bad.

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That's a gank fitting, I'm talking about tank. Let's just say we are talking about gank, the Zealot still outperforms the Cerberus on damage. I can confirm with EFT if you wish.

As for the guy who is talking about my logic, EFT doesn't lie my friend.

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Originally by: shinsushi

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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It doesn't need another gun slot. Want poor dps for a hac? Fly an eagle, fly a cerberus.

Thank you very much. You can close this thread now.

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Cerb does 440 DPS to 40km without needing to worry about tracking, being cap stable, going 2800m/s, and having a decent tank. That aint bad.

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That's a gank fitting, I'm talking about tank. Let's just say we are talking about gank, the Zealot still outperforms the Cerberus on damage. I can confirm with EFT if you wish.

As for the guy who is talking about my logic, EFT doesn't lie my friend.

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You making no sense. Your original statement basically read, "caldari HACs have sucky damage... so no boost for anyone :emo:"

Oh and you ompletely avoided what goum just said. IT can have good DPS, a good tank, fly fast, and not worry about tracking all at the same time.

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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My original post was intended to show you that the Zealot doesn't need a boost, the eagle and cerberus does worse damage when fit for damage or gank. Maybe you need to work on your English comprehension. Do me a favor, stop talking.

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Quote:

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My EFT says a Zealot does 454 DPS with Amarr Navy MF M @ 10km, and the Cerb does 494 DPS w/ Caldary Navy Terror Assault Missiles at 40km.

I would love to see how you get more than 494 DPS with a Zealot, let alone do that at 40km.

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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My original post was intended to show you that the Zealot doesn't need a boost, the eagle and cerberus does worse damage when fit for damage or gank. Maybe you need to work on your English comprehension. Do me a favor, stop talking.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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It doesn't need another gun slot. Want poor dps for a hac? Fly an eagle, fly a cerberus.

Thank you very much. You can close this thread now.

---

Cerb does 440 DPS to 40km without needing to worry about tracking, being cap stable, going 2800m/s, and having a decent tank. That aint bad.

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That's a gank fitting, I'm talking about tank. Let's just say we are talking about gank, the Zealot still outperforms the Cerberus on damage. I can confirm with EFT if you wish.

As for the guy who is talking about my logic, EFT doesn't lie my friend.

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My EFT says a Zealot does 454 DPS with Amarr Navy MF M @ 10km, and the Cerb does 494 DPS w/ Caldary Navy Terror Assault Missiles at 40km.

I would love to see how you get more than 494 DPS with a Zealot, let alone do that at 40km.

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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Ummm... Faction ammo missiles only go 23km, your figures are wrong. The DPS part is right, however, good luck tanking. While the Zealot does 454 which is correct but can tank better than the Cerberus (when it fits HAMs). Now I stand corrected on the DPS part but realistically there is no way a Cerb with HAM's and 3 BCU is going to have anything of a tank. Go ahead and try to fit a decent tank, you can't. That is why most Caldari users tend to lean towards HML's. At least you won't run into fitting problems if you run a 3 heat sink setup.

My original post still stands. In the end Zealot will do more damage if fit correctly!

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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Ummm... Faction ammo missiles only go 23km, your figures are wrong.

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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The DPS part is right, however, good luck tanking. While the Zealot does 454 which is correct but can tank better than the Cerberus (when it fits HAMs). Now I stand corrected on the DPS part but realistically there is no way a Cerb with HAM's and 3 BCU is going to have anything of a tank. Go ahead and try to fit a decent tank, you can't.

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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That is why most Caldari users tend to lean towards HML's. At least you won't run into fitting problems if you run a 3 heat sink setup.

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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My original post still stands. In the end Zealot will do more damage if fit correctly!

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 05/09/2007 22:41:21

Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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Ummm... Faction ammo missiles only go 23km, your figures are wrong. The DPS part is right, however, good luck tanking. While the Zealot does 454 which is correct but can tank better than the Cerberus (when it fits HAMs). Now I stand corrected on the DPS part but realistically there is no way a Cerb with HAM's and 3 BCU is going to have anything of a tank. Go ahead and try to fit a decent tank, you can't. That is why most Caldari users tend to lean towards HML's. At least you won't run into fitting problems if you run a 3 heat sink setup.

My original post still stands. In the end Zealot will do more damage if fit correctly!

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1. Faction missiles go 40km. Not only did they get a boost in the last patch, but EFT is missing half of the cerbs range bonus in its figures. So update your EFT and then take the optimal you see and multiply by 1.5.

2. A cerb with HAMs can fit a large tank if it forgos propulsion. If it doesnt forgo propulsion then it can fit two MSEs and a damage control while still fitting a scrambler, or two MSEs and an invuln and a damage control while still being cap stable.

Or it can nano and not worry about tracking.

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Originally by: Siakel

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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Ummm... Faction ammo missiles only go 23km, your figures are wrong.

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Wrong. 20km*1.5*1.5 =/= 23km. Your figures are wrong.

Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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The DPS part is right, however, good luck tanking. While the Zealot does 454 which is correct but can tank better than the Cerberus (when it fits HAMs). Now I stand corrected on the DPS part but realistically there is no way a Cerb with HAM's and 3 BCU is going to have anything of a tank. Go ahead and try to fit a decent tank, you can't.

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Wrong, again. I can get a Cerb with HAMs to have a better tanked DPS than the Zealot with a far, far higher HP buffer. How is that a 'worse tank'?

Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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That is why most Caldari users tend to lean towards HML's. At least you won't run into fitting problems if you run a 3 heat sink setup.

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Indeed, the Zealot fits easily, with plenty of CPU to spare, no matter what it fits... oh, wait. No it doesn't.

And, to be honest, most people who fly Caldari suck or lack creativity, and that's why they fit HMLs.

Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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My original post still stands. In the end Zealot will do more damage if fit correctly!

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No, it really wont.


On a side note, where are you getting your DPS figures, Goum? EFT gives me 525 DPS at 45km using CN Terrors with 3x BCU II and max skills?

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Originally by: magnus amadeus

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Yes, bring the zealot in line with the rest of the HACs. Look at its bonuses, the thing is meant to be a gank ship, yet its outdamaged by all but like 3 of the other HACs currently.

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Originally by: James Lyrus

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Originally by: magnus amadeus

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Yes, bring the zealot in line with the rest of the HACs. Look at its bonuses, the thing is meant to be a gank ship, yet its outdamaged by all but like 3 of the other HACs currently.

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2 of them being the Cerberus and the Eagle?

Wait, the Muninn and the Vagabond don't do that well either...

Hmm.

Which three?

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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Oh okay, didn't know they got boosted in patch. As for that HAM tank, there is no way you can say that is a good tank, that thing will get ripped through quickly without a booster and an injector. There is no way I'm flying a half-passive/half-active tank, its not a good setup at all. You have to make up your mind, if your going to fit passive go all out, if you are going to fit active go all out. Both of which will do less DPS than a Zealot.

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Originally by: James Lyrus

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Originally by: magnus amadeus

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Yes, bring the zealot in line with the rest of the HACs. Look at its bonuses, the thing is meant to be a gank ship, yet its outdamaged by all but like 3 of the other HACs currently.

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2 of them being the Cerberus and the Eagle?

Wait, the Muninn and the Vagabond don't do that well either...

Hmm.

Which three?

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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Originally by: Siakel

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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Ummm... Faction ammo missiles only go 23km, your figures are wrong.

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Wrong. 20km*1.5*1.5 =/= 23km. Your figures are wrong.

Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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The DPS part is right, however, good luck tanking. While the Zealot does 454 which is correct but can tank better than the Cerberus (when it fits HAMs). Now I stand corrected on the DPS part but realistically there is no way a Cerb with HAM's and 3 BCU is going to have anything of a tank. Go ahead and try to fit a decent tank, you can't.

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Wrong, again. I can get a Cerb with HAMs to have a better tanked DPS than the Zealot with a far, far higher HP buffer. How is that a 'worse tank'?

Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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That is why most Caldari users tend to lean towards HML's. At least you won't run into fitting problems if you run a 3 heat sink setup.

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Indeed, the Zealot fits easily, with plenty of CPU to spare, no matter what it fits... oh, wait. No it doesn't.

And, to be honest, most people who fly Caldari suck or lack creativity, and that's why they fit HMLs.

Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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My original post still stands. In the end Zealot will do more damage if fit correctly!

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No, it really wont.


On a side note, where are you getting your DPS figures, Goum? EFT gives me 525 DPS at 45km using CN Terrors with 3x BCU II and max skills?

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Ah so most caldari pilots suck. That's a good way to explain your message.

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Originally by: Waxau

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Originally by: Lisento Slaven

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The Zealot is boring and is outclassed by the harbinger.

Harbinger is better than Zealot in my opinion =P

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um dude...Sorry but that just makes you a total nub. Most HACs wont stand up well to a decent BC. And you're comparing it to a harbinger? My Vulture does the same dps as an eagle. And my eagle does less dps than your zealot. Hows that for justice?

Stop whining, and play the game.

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Originally by: Waxau

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I fly a cerb as my main ship nowdays, and i use t2 hams. The dps is mediocre at best, and i use a nano setup. No tank at all.

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Originally by: Waxau

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Those who fly the ships will no doubt want a buff, but i will just say, that you fly a cerb, and eagle, or a muninn. Then let us know how the zealot compares. The amount of times ive actually been tempted to train amarr cruiser to lv 5 for a zealot is in the 10's.

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Originally by: Waxau

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And as for the vulture...The eagle gets a damage bonus. Even with the nighthawks extra turret slot, it does the same dps. And no, im not including drones or missiles in that. Its a command ship, so 2 gang mods. And drones? 5 light drones are not worth talking about. Although in all fairness thats probs a good whack of the dps a vulture is capable of chucking out.

So i will reitterate. Your zealot give or take 10 dps, outdamages my command ship. Fair comparison?

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Originally by: Waxau

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Id like my cerb to go 5kms without snakes. And have a range of 100km with hams. And have a tank at the same time. Likely to happen? No.

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Originally by: Waxau

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Stop whining, just because you have a bit of the 'i-want'.

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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This isn't about balancing ships man, you know that. Everyone here who flies amarr know that they can compete with other hacs in the game right now if they are fit properly, I don't want to hear it. I've fought some really damn good Zealot pilots that made me think 'What the 4 letter word :) are people crying about on forums, that thing was pretty vicious.' Maybe you guys just need a better setup. :D

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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This isn't about balancing ships man, you know that. Everyone here who flies amarr know that they can compete with other hacs in the game right now if they are fit properly, I don't want to hear it. I've fought some really damn good Zealot pilots that made me think 'What the 4 letter word :) are people crying about on forums, that thing was pretty vicious.' Maybe you guys just need a better setup. :D

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Originally by: Mortuus

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Yea, my speed tanked Vaga does 600 DPS...if it sits still at optimal range.....

AT LEAST use in game situations for this comparison, instead of just straight DPS numbers.
BTW, I love my buddies Zealot, not only can she put out good DPS vs most ships, it can pop inties like they are nothing. (Vaga has issues vs very fast inties, its nice having a high tracking mid range ship with me)

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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This isn't about balancing ships man, you know that. Everyone here who flies amarr know that they can compete with other hacs in the game right now if they are fit properly, I don't want to hear it. I've fought some really damn good Zealot pilots that made me think 'What the 4 letter word :) are people crying about on forums, that thing was pretty vicious.' Maybe you guys just need a better setup. :D

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There is pretty much one decent Zealot fit for short range and its utterly destroyed in all manners by the Vagabond[faster, more damage, better tank, easier time with transversal, ewar, etc]

I should not have to faction fit the thing to make it effective.

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Hey man, don't feel alone, every race has problems against Vagabonds, only thing that can **** them off is Caldari Navy Scourge :D

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Originally by: Mortuus

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Edited by: Mortuus on 06/09/2007 03:22:51
With its lower speed and the tracking boost to Pulses its very close, AND its not fighting in falloff with the additional 50% miss rate or more.

And if you really want to, you can fit it to snipe.

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Originally by: iiOs

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Originally by: magnus amadeus

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You do know that the vaga/muninn can both do around 600 DPS and the demios/ishtar can do about 800 right (ya gotta include drones)?

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duno how you get 800 dps out of deimos

but ishtar yea, its crazy ship, but as i said its uber, and shouldnt be used to compare other hacs to it

and about vaga and munin, you forgetting range changing possebility zealot have ;)

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Dude the zealot dont need no extra gun. the graphs here and here obviously show it is wtfuwber pwnage like the Eagle.

rawr.

Liang

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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This isn't about balancing ships man, you know that. Everyone here who flies amarr know that they can compete with other hacs in the game right now if they are fit properly, I don't want to hear it. I've fought some really damn good Zealot pilots that made me think 'What the 4 letter word :) are people crying about on forums, that thing was pretty vicious.' Maybe you guys just need a better setup. :D

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Dude the zealot dont need no extra gun. the graphs here and here obviously show it is wtfuwber pwnage like the Eagle.

rawr.

Liang

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The eagle has problems in the short range, there is no denying that. It doesnt have problems in the long range.

The Zealot has problems everywhere.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Dude the zealot dont need no extra gun. the graphs here and here obviously show it is wtfuwber pwnage like the Eagle.

rawr.

Liang

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The eagle has problems in the short range, there is no denying that. It doesnt have problems in the long range.

The Zealot has problems everywhere.

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The Zealot is awesome at short range according to these graphs here and here, and if you give it another turret slot it will be overpowered at every range.

Liang

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Dude the zealot dont need no extra gun. the graphs here and here obviously show it is wtfuwber pwnage like the Eagle.

rawr.

Liang

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The eagle has problems in the short range, there is no denying that. It doesnt have problems in the long range.

The Zealot has problems everywhere.

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The Zealot is awesome at short range according to these graphs here and here, and if you give it another turret slot it will be overpowered at every range.

Liang

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I am sorry, what graphs?

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Oh, I'm just saying I'm linking to them. It saves me the trouble of making things up like you do. ^_^

Liang

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Originally by: Deschenus Maximus

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K, awesome levels of sillyness and trolling going on...

-Yeah, eagle is ****. If you believe that the Zealot doesn't deserve a boost because of it, than you are a tard. Fix the Zealot, and fix the Eagle at the same time. 5th turret for both!

-Eagle SHOULD do less damage than a Zealot, as a Zealot cannot hit out to 200+km, while the Eagle can. Both ships have different niches; Zealot -> close to mid range gankage, Eagle -> mid to long range sniperage.

-Comparing HACs to Commands is just plain lol. For the sake of argument, when was the last time you saw a Zealot shoot at the same range your Vulture does, Waxau?

-Binger doesn't do everything a Zealot does. Zealot still needs a boost, but saying that a Binger can do everything a Zealot can is false.

-If you think the Zealot is so great, put your damn money where your mouth is, and do the training for it. Maybe then you will see where it falls short.

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Originally by: Waxau

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You're wanting a boost in a ship, which doesnt need it, and using disproportionate examples to justify it. And you all say about 'balance'...And then flame me for comparing it to others? What kind of balance are you looking for eh?
Nubs

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Oh, I'm just saying I'm linking to them. It saves me the trouble of making things up like you do. ^_^

Liang

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I have linked to the graphs and explained them so many times already it is getting a bit painful to have to do it again in that thread. How many times do i have to do it until you look at the things?

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Originally by: Cpt Cosmic

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Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 06/09/2007 11:51:38
funny how some mentioned the vaga because i got my zealot to 8900 m/s without implants and without gang bonus and without overloading the mwd :) it only lacks a bit dps but its a easy fix, give it 15m¦ drone bay

*edit*
its more easy then a fix
sell zealot, buy sacrilege :)
funny thing is, scacrilege with dual armor rep tank and thermic passive hardener + 2 bcu II outdamages zealot and tanks 400 dps :)

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Originally by: Miss KillSome

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no


I want another low on my eos though..

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Originally by: Spartikaz

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Say yes if you think the zealot should get a extra gun slot!

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Originally by: Lisento Slaven

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Zealot is 78 mil in Domain.

Sacrilege is 110 mil in Domain.

Prior to any announcement of the Khanid changes, the Sacrilege was about 68 mil in Domain.

Prior to any announcements of the Khanid changes, the Zealot was about 110 mil in Domain (vague memory on this one).

It is safe to say that people think the Zealot is not worth anywhere near as much anymore. In fact...the Sacrilege is more fun to fly in my opinion. The Zealot is boring and is outclassed by the harbinger. 25 m3 drone bay, 3 more turrets, +1 rig slot, +1 mid slot, -1 lowslot, obviously more grid and cpu. And also cheaper. (by about 40 mil in Domain region...I see the harbinger going for 34.8 mil).

Harbinger is better than Zealot in my opinion =P

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Originally by: Baran Doban

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Edited by: Baran Doban on 06/09/2007 13:02:36

Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Oh, I'm just saying I'm linking to them. It saves me the trouble of making things up like you do. ^_^

Liang

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I have linked to the graphs and explained them so many times already it is getting a bit painful to have to do it again in that thread. How many times do i have to do it until you look at the things?

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You forgot that Special Ed students are unique and beautiful snowflakes that require more delicate teaching methods.

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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It doesn't need another gun slot. Want poor dps for a hac? Fly an eagle, fly a cerberus.

Thank you very much. You can close this thread now.

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Cerb does 440 DPS to 40km without needing to worry about tracking, being cap stable, going 2800m/s, and having a decent tank. That aint bad.

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That's a gank fitting, I'm talking about tank. Let's just say we are talking about gank, the Zealot still outperforms the Cerberus on damage. I can confirm with EFT if you wish.

As for the guy who is talking about my logic, EFT doesn't lie my friend.

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My EFT says a Zealot does 454 DPS with Amarr Navy MF M @ 10km, and the Cerb does 494 DPS w/ Caldary Navy Terror Assault Missiles at 40km.

I would love to see how you get more than 494 DPS with a Zealot, let alone do that at 40km.

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Ummm... Faction ammo missiles only go 23km, your figures are wrong. The DPS part is right, however, good luck tanking. While the Zealot does 454 which is correct but can tank better than the Cerberus (when it fits HAMs). Now I stand corrected on the DPS part but realistically there is no way a Cerb with HAM's and 3 BCU is going to have anything of a tank. Go ahead and try to fit a decent tank, you can't. That is why most Caldari users tend to lean towards HML's. At least you won't run into fitting problems if you run a 3 heat sink setup.

My original post still stands. In the end Zealot will do more damage if fit correctly!

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Oh, I'm just saying I'm linking to them. It saves me the trouble of making things up like you do. ^_^

Liang

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I have linked to the graphs and explained them so many times already it is getting a bit painful to have to do it again in that thread. How many times do i have to do it until you look at the things?

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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What? Oh, but explaining a random number generator is just useless. Your graphs don't reflect reality - so they might as well be a random number generator.

Also, according to *YOUR OWN GRAPHS*, the Zealot, with an extra turret, would vastly overpower the Eagle - which is *supposed* to be the ultimate sniper.

Liang

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Originally by: Regaul Kinath

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Edited by: Regaul Kinath on 05/09/2007 23:29:28
Edited by: Regaul Kinath on 05/09/2007 23:28:11
If i wasnt so stupid i would say that the omen outdamages the zealot

zealot = 4 turrets
omen = 4 turrets + 1 heavy missile launcher + 3 light drones!

what the hell am i the only one that seems something wrong here???

The omen outdamages the zealot, the zealot only tanks better!

I thought it was supose a HAC outdamage a t1 counterpart!

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Originally by: Magazaki

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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What? Oh, but explaining a random number generator is just useless. Your graphs don't reflect reality - so they might as well be a random number generator.

Also, according to *YOUR OWN GRAPHS*, the Zealot, with an extra turret, would vastly overpower the Eagle - which is *supposed* to be the ultimate sniper.

Liang

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just cut myself on the irony.
Arrogance + hypocrisy + intelligence + belief that this intelligence is superior to others' + the oportunity of a guy to remove his arguments following his own interest = 2 very funny threads

Gourmin commited what we could call "forum-character suicide"

On another note, Eagle and then Zealot need a fifth turret. I know this is a thread about the Zealot and not eagle, but I mention the eagle cause since it is already the last of the pack his distance to the next one would be even bigger...

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Originally by: Waxau

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Originally by: Deschenus Maximus

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-Binger doesn't do everything a Zealot does. Zealot still needs a boost, but saying that a Binger can do everything a Zealot can is false.

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Why was i comparing it to a command ship? Same reason you're comparing the harbinger to a zealot.

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Originally by: Waxau

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You're wanting a boost in a ship, which doesnt need it, and using disproportionate examples to justify it.

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Originally by: Waxau

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Nubs

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Originally by: Fon Revedhort

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Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 06/09/2007 16:48:59

5th turret to zealot? Can I have the 7th on my abso then? That utility slot isn't very useful, too

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Oh, I'm just saying I'm linking to them. It saves me the trouble of making things up like you do. ^_^

Liang

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I have linked to the graphs and explained them so many times already it is getting a bit painful to have to do it again in that thread. How many times do i have to do it until you look at the things?

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What? Oh, but explaining a random number generator is just useless. Your graphs don't reflect reality - so they might as well be a random number generator.

Also, according to *YOUR OWN GRAPHS*, the Zealot, with an extra turret, would vastly overpower the Eagle - which is *supposed* to be the ultimate sniper.

Liang

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Originally by: Waxau

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Why was i comparing it to a command ship? Same reason you're comparing the harbinger to a zealot. And im sorry, but the damnation CAN outdamage the zealot. Go look up those graphs ya stuck up sod. And secondly, Claymore dps > minnie hac dps, eos > gal Hac dps. Dont start whining about them being fleets. It was a comparison to rival yours. You dont like it? Fine. But the fact still remains.

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Originally by: Waxau

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You're wanting a boost in a ship, which doesnt need it, and using disproportionate examples to justify it. And you all say about 'balance'...And then flame me for comparing it to others? What kind of balance are you looking for eh?

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Originally by: Waxau

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Nubs

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Oh, I'm just saying I'm linking to them. It saves me the trouble of making things up like you do. ^_^

Liang

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I have linked to the graphs and explained them so many times already it is getting a bit painful to have to do it again in that thread. How many times do i have to do it until you look at the things?

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What? Oh, but explaining a random number generator is just useless. Your graphs don't reflect reality - so they might as well be a random number generator.

Also, according to *YOUR OWN GRAPHS*, the Zealot, with an extra turret, would vastly overpower the Eagle - which is *supposed* to be the ultimate sniper.

Liang

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my graphs show no such thing, mainly because of radio

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Originally by: LUKEC

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Is vaga decent enough example to justify it? Faster, more tank, better tracking, more cap independent, drones?

Or perhaps just fact that huginn does outdamage zealot? (3x 220mm acII+barrage, 3x hamII+std ammo, 3x med + 2x light t2 drones) outdamage zealot with scorch and 2 heatsinks while huginn didn't use any dmg mods yet. While same huginn have ability to have like 7k shield with quite good resists(2x lse II+invul II is ok, you don't need 2 webs on hugabbond)

Or perhaps arazu with drones + 2 mag stabs II and 250mm rails coming close to outdamage zealot? (with faction am, 280dps or so)

Do you need more? All ships mentioned above do outperform zealot at pretty much any role while having some other useful abilities and zealot have ... none.

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Originally by: ShivaTheWrecker

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It's suppose to be the #1 DPSers,

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: me

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my graphs show no such thing, mainly because of radio

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So you're admitting to tanking the graphs?

Liang

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 06/09/2007 17:37:41

Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: me

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my graphs show no such thing, mainly because of radio

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So you're admitting to tanking the graphs?

Liang

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Do you know what radio is?

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 06/09/2007 17:37:41

Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: me

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my graphs show no such thing, mainly because of radio

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So you're admitting to tanking the graphs?

Liang

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Do you know what radio is?

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Yes, do you know what an extra turret is?

Liang

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 06/09/2007 17:37:41

Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: me

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my graphs show no such thing, mainly because of radio

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So you're admitting to tanking the graphs?

Liang

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Do you know what radio is?

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Yes, do you know what an extra turret is?

Liang

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Originally by: Almarez

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Yes, but if you think you have cap probs now, imagine with a 5th gun.

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Originally by: Deschenus Maximus

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Originally by: ShivaTheWrecker

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It's suppose to be the #1 DPSers,

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I don't believe it should be number 1 (that spot is the Deimos'), but it sure as hell shouldn't 2nd last.

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Originally by: goodby4u

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 06/09/2007 17:37:41

Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: me

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my graphs show no such thing, mainly because of radio

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So you're admitting to tanking the graphs?

Liang

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Do you know what radio is?

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Yes, do you know what an extra turret is?

Liang

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Yes i think he does,but you need to check what radio is.

And as for your comment about the zealot outdamaging an eagle,ITS SUPPOSE TO...But the eagle should outrange the zealot,if it doesnt then i will propose a boost to the eagles range,and no im not talking blasters because thats not what the eagle is designed to use.

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Originally by: Nyxus

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Zealot should have the comparable turret dps (or slightly better)with greater range, while the Deimos should have the best overall dps imo. That's why the Deimos has such a huge drone bay.

Nyxus

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Of course the Zealot is supposed to outdamage the Eagle - except in sniping situations. If you give the Zealot another turret, it will *COMPLETELY TROUNCE* all other sniping cruisers, to use Goum's wonderful terminology.

Liang

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Of course the Zealot is supposed to outdamage the Eagle - except in sniping situations. If you give the Zealot another turret, it will *COMPLETELY TROUNCE* all other sniping cruisers, to use Goum's wonderful terminology.

Liang

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Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn

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Originally by: Kruel

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You guys can't just compare DPS on HACs... Most HACs have more mids and/or a dronebay which can be used as EW! Zealot can not use EW in any practical form (whether mods or drones). It NEEDS to be a ganky ship. Hell even the Deimos can use 5 medium ECM drones, and those suckers can be nasty.

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deimos also has much shorter range, as the range bonus on the zealot can be quite useful. Deimos doing more damage than the zealot is prolly ok....but i think its also faster now...

in terms of raw damage potential, zealot only outdamages the eagle(with rails). Then you add in the other weaknesses:

1. Most cap using weapons
2. Bad Damage types
3. Lack of med slots
4. Lack of drones
5. 3 and 4 also mean complete lack of EW (ie, no TD or damp tossed in for free like on ishtar)
6. Very vulnerable to damps (muninn has same lock range, vaga only hac with less, but is faster)
7. very vulnerable to ECM (lowest sensor strength, shared with muninn)
8. Very vulnerable to Turret disruptors (lasers effect most due to low pulse tracking and reliance on optimal range)
9. Second lowest damage POTENTIAL

so, diemos and vaga are faster (diemos due to less mass so better mwd) and both can outdamage zealot (true, most dont fly vaga in this way), all others have similar range abilities and more damage. Eagle could be fitted with blasters for more damage i guess, otherwise its just way out there where zealot cant touch it.

The Zealot needs SOMETHING. i dont know if 5th turret is the way to go, but SOMETHING. omen has a drone bay, why not the zealot?

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Of course the Zealot is supposed to outdamage the Eagle - except in sniping situations. If you give the Zealot another turret, it will *COMPLETELY TROUNCE* all other sniping cruisers, to use Goum's wonderful terminology.

Liang

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Please stop lieing.

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Originally by: Deschenus Maximus

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Of course the Zealot is supposed to outdamage the Eagle - except in sniping situations. If you give the Zealot another turret, it will *COMPLETELY TROUNCE* all other sniping cruisers, to use Goum's wonderful terminology.

Liang

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Not if the Eagle also gets a 5th turret.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Deschenus Maximus

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Of course the Zealot is supposed to outdamage the Eagle - except in sniping situations. If you give the Zealot another turret, it will *COMPLETELY TROUNCE* all other sniping cruisers, to use Goum's wonderful terminology.

Liang

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Not if the Eagle also gets a 5th turret.

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Its true - but Goumin insists that the Eagle will be wtfuberbbqpwnageomgitstehendoftehworldz!!!111eleventyoen!1 if it gets another turret. Hell, it'd be doubly so for the Zealot. Ever seen what them bastages does to an inty at 23km?

I had a corpmate in a Zealot eat my interceptor going 6km/sec in a 23km orbit - and he didn't even mean to.

Liang

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 07/09/2007 00:59:19

Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Deschenus Maximus

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Of course the Zealot is supposed to outdamage the Eagle - except in sniping situations. If you give the Zealot another turret, it will *COMPLETELY TROUNCE* all other sniping cruisers, to use Goum's wonderful terminology.

Liang

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Not if the Eagle also gets a 5th turret.

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Its true - but Goumin insists that the Eagle will be wtfuberbbqpwnageomgitstehendoftehworldz!!!111eleventyoen!1 if it gets another turret. Hell, it'd be doubly so for the Zealot. Ever seen what them bastages does to an inty at 23km?

I had a corpmate in a Zealot eat my interceptor going 6km/sec in a 23km orbit - and he didn't even mean to.

Liang

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A Maxed Skilled Zealot will hit a 6km/s transversal interceptor less than 5% of the time at that range. That is about 18.58 DPS. Kills a crusader in 2 minutes and 8 seconds.[ignoring damage types]

4km/s is about 58 dps.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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TBH, he was sitting still, and I was orbiting at 23km. It was right after the Pulse? tracking boost Amarr just got. Pretty freaking stupid TBH.. but I guess its cool that the ship tracks *everything*.

I'm *reasonably* sure he didn't have a TC fit, but I wasn't flying it so I can't swear by it.

Liang

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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TBH, he was sitting still, and I was orbiting at 23km. It was right after the Pulse? tracking boost Amarr just got. Pretty freaking stupid TBH.. but I guess its cool that the ship tracks *everything*.

I'm *reasonably* sure he didn't have a TC fit, but I wasn't flying it so I can't swear by it.

Liang

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Short answer is that you are wrong and are not remembering the situation correctly.

I know this in many different ways. The first is that Autocannons STILL track better than pulse lasers and autocannons STILL have problems killing interceptors unless the autocannon user keeps at range.

I also know this because when orbiting a cruiser at 2000m/s at 23km that doesnt have its MWD running, i personally with tracking skill 4 have trouble hitting cruisers. This is after the boost. Tripple that and what do you get?

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