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Crane Blockade runner needs +4 powergrid.

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Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2007.12.17 17:16:00 - [61] Edited by: Lubomir Penev on 17/12/2007 17:21:57 Originally by: kill0rbunny Originally by: Aldelphius /sign 4 base PG (hell, I would take 2 base PG) Hell I would even appreciate one friggin point of powergrid. 1 Named MWD plus Cloak is all i can ever need for hauling my loot out of 0.0. Now I have a friggin Power Diag on it to fit only those two modules. It's a plain joke. Lets compare fitted ships. [Crane setup] Power Diagnostic System II Local Hull Conversion Inertial Stabilizers I Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Improved Cloaking Device II [Prowler setup] Power Diagnostic System II Local Hull Conversion Inertial Stabilizers I Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Medium Shield Booster II Invulnerability Field II Improved Cloaking Device II Those are realistic and I guess relatively common setups. The Prowler is faster but the Crane align faster and holds more. The Crane also have 4000 more effective HP than the Prowler while the Prowler got a better active tank (but considering the most those ship should ever endure is running 10km back to gate the Crane really is advantaged here). Can someone honestly tell that the Crane is really at a disadvantage? Who cares about ships fitted with a single mod. Once all slots are filled the two shield tanked blockade runners look very balanced to me. -- Heat, easy to burn your mods by mistake, hard to get it to work when you need it the most. Well designed interface CCP!
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.12.17 17:20:00 - [62] Edited by: shinsushi on 17/12/2007 17:20:57 Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: kill0rbunny Originally by: Aldelphius /sign 4 base PG (hell, I would take 2 base PG) Hell I would even appreciate one friggin point of powergrid. 1 Named MWD plus Cloak is all i can ever need for hauling my loot out of 0.0. Now I have a friggin Power Diag on it to fit only those two modules. It's a plain joke. Lets compare fitted ships. [Crane setup] Power Diagnostic System II Local Hull Conversion Inertial Stabilizers I Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Improved Cloaking Device II [Prowler setup] Power Diagnostic System II Local Hull Conversion Inertial Stabilizers I Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Medium Shield Booster II Invulnerability Field II Improved Cloaking Device II Those are realistic and I guess relatively common setups. The Prowler is faster but the Crane align faster and holds more. The Crane also have 4500 more effective HP than the Prowler while the Prowler got a better active tank (but considering the most those ship should ever endure is running 10km back to gate the Crane really is advantaged here). Can someone honestly tell that the Crane is really at a disadvantage? Who cares about ships fitted with a single mod. Once all slots are filled the two shield tanked blockade runners look very balanced to me. Now I wonder how that setup would change with +4 powergrid? Probably not at all eh? Oh and since your being so stubborn, why is it that the prowler gets 2 highs? An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2007.12.17 17:30:00 - [63] Originally by: shinsushi ]Now I wonder how that setup would change with +4 powergrid? Probably not at all eh? Two istabs in low, goodluck catching one in lowsec ever then. Quote: Oh and since your being so stubborn, why is it that the prowler gets 2 highs? Because it gets one less mid? This extra highslot doesn't serve much a blocade runner and I'd bet most Prowler pilots would rather have it an extra low or extra mid. And now can you answer this question : are the Prowler and Crane imbalanced wrt each other now and if not why change it? -- Heat, easy to burn your mods by mistake, hard to get it to work when you need it the most. Well designed interface CCP!
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.12.17 17:59:00 - [64] Edited by: shinsushi on 17/12/2007 18:00:20 Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: shinsushi ]Now I wonder how that setup would change with +4 powergrid? Probably not at all eh? Two istabs in low, goodluck catching one in lowsec ever then. Quote: Oh and since your being so stubborn, why is it that the prowler gets 2 highs? Because it gets one less mid? This extra highslot doesn't serve much a blocade runner and I'd bet most Prowler pilots would rather have it an extra low or extra mid. And now can you answer this question : are the Prowler and Crane imbalanced wrt each other now and if not why change it? I wonder if any other any other blockade (or every other) can fit 2 istabs in the lows AND fit a MWD.... I know the prowler can... You are being a hypocrite. What you are saying here is that every single other blockade runner should be able to do things that the crane should not, well at least without fitting mods. Seriously, your wrong, accept it, embrace it, know it. EDIT: yes they are imbalanced. The prowler can fit a MWD w/o fitting mods, the crane cannot. An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.
Katashi Ishizuka	Posted - 2007.12.17 18:28:00 - [65] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: shinsushi The way I see it is that the #1 thing to fit on a blockade runner is a MWD, that goes on before anything else. The prowler can still fit a small booster and something of a tank, and still nano it up right? Even beyond any of this, isn't the spare low-slots for the nanoing already dealt with by having only 2 lows? I really do not understand your logic. On the armor tankers blockade runners especially the gallente one, after you fitted a small rep and an explosive hardener only room for one istab. (The amarr one actually could be nanoed up nicely due to its even native resists). But if you Give the prowler and crane more pg you can know for sure their lowslots will be istabs and that will make them really much better then the gallente one at least. It's not like blockade runners are not used the same from all races. Warp fast and when you can't burn back to gate tanking the damage. As a shipclass the blockade runners are pretty balanced in my view now, the suggestion of the op would break that. The option of giving them more grid and removing a low would make them less flexible (thinking battle haulers there ). ... You do not tank damage in a hauler. You die. Speed is life, and so the tanking bonuses on the blockade runner are pretty useless. Therefore, to say that Viators and Proraters put armor tanking mods on instead of cargo or nano mods is to expose a deep ignorance of the way they are flown. In comparison, even though I don't fly it, I think the Caldari blockade runner does deserve +4 PG.
VicturusTeSaluto Metafarmers	Posted - 2007.12.17 18:38:00 - [66] use a powergrid implant or fit a rig.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.17 19:25:00 - [67] Edited by: James Lyrus on 17/12/2007 19:25:25 Wow. Thanks 'anti-Crane boost guys'. You bumped my thread, and pushed forth my ultimate EVIL agenda to take over EVE with CRANES OF DOOOOOM. To answer a few posts, no this is hardly the end of the world, either way. 4 powergrid just isn't very much. But I'm pretty certain I speak for all the Crane pilots out there, when I say that this LITTLE thing would make our gameplay experience SO MUCH better. It is ONLY the Crane that needs a grid boost (of some kind). It's not the end of the world. 4 grid doesn't tip the scales of balance much either way. IF the Crane could fit: Improved Cloak II, Y-T8 MWD, Invuln, Invuln, Photon 2x Local istab Then it'd be as agile as a prowler with the same fit (but only since trinity) (lose the photon on the prorator, because it doesn't have a gaping huge EM hole). It would have 2400 more ehps (14k or so, vs. 12k or so). It would have 312m3 more cargo. And 15% more mass, meaning worse acceleration, and a lower top speed on MWD - Crane being on 1796, and Prowler on 2183. And 9% more signature, too. I turn your question around. Would that be so bad? Would the apocalypse happen? Would people scream and cry that the Crane was now ZOMG OVERPOWERED, much like they scream and shout about the Charon being the most uber freighter? No, not really. Prowler would still be the fastest and most agile hauler. It'd still be the one that got back to the gate first, and also the one that got locked last. Positive reasons to fly both, y'see. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2007.12.17 19:35:00 - [68] Originally by: Katashi I**uka You do not tank damage in a hauler. You die. Speed is life, and so the tanking bonuses on the blockade runner are pretty useless. Therefore, to say that Viators and Proraters put armor tanking mods on instead of cargo or nano mods is to expose a deep ignorance of the way they are flown. In comparison, even though I don't fly it, I think the Caldari blockade runner does deserve +4 PG. You need to do about 10km to get back to get. About 2000m/s top speed. take in account acceleration time at the beginning and being webbed at the end. You WILL take damage from any decent camp. And the passive shield tank bonus the Crane get is by far the best to have in such a situation. Many effective HP in that shield. The worse bonus by far is the one on the Prorator, unlikely to get more than 2 or 3 small armor rep cycle. -- Heat, easy to burn your mods by mistake, hard to get it to work when you need it the most. Well designed interface CCP!
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.17 19:41:00 - [69] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: Katashi I**uka You do not tank damage in a hauler. You die. Speed is life, and so the tanking bonuses on the blockade runner are pretty useless. Therefore, to say that Viators and Proraters put armor tanking mods on instead of cargo or nano mods is to expose a deep ignorance of the way they are flown. In comparison, even though I don't fly it, I think the Caldari blockade runner does deserve +4 PG. You need to do about 10km to get back to get. About 2000m/s top speed. take in account acceleration time at the beginning and being webbed at the end. You WILL take damage from any decent camp. And the passive shield tank bonus the Crane get is by far the best to have in such a situation. Many effective HP in that shield. The worse bonus by far is the one on the Prorator, unlikely to get more than 2 or 3 small armor rep cycle. All the active tank bonuses on blockade runners are utterly worthless. Over the time period you actually need to survive, a plate, extender or hardener is basically in all ways better than fitting a repper. And ... actually, the Crane doesn't get a passive shield bonus. It gets boost amount. Crane: +10% shield boost amount Prowler: 5% boost amount, 5% cap need. Prorator: 5% repper amount, 5% repper duration Viator: 5% repper duration, 5% repper cap. All these bonuses are utterly worthless on a blockade runner, and I think all of them should be changed to something useful, like resistances, HPs increase, agility or speed. But at the same time, even if they did that, the Crane would still deserve 4 more powergrid :) -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2007.12.17 19:41:00 - [70] Originally by: James Lyrus Then it'd be as agile as a prowler with the same fit (but only since trinity) The Crane is slightly faster in warp than the Prowler now, both having the same number of inertia stabilizers. A Prowler fitting two is left with a tank even crappier than what it gets now with a medium shield booster. The Crane needed tanking gear all take 1 grid, while you have to reserve some grid for a medium booster for the Prowler, and even with it it will be a worse tank for blockade running purpose than what the Crane enjoy. It's not like boosting the Crane would be the end of the world, but blockade runners are pretty well balanced now and dev time would be better spent on more glaring issues. Like boosting the Breacher -- Heat, easy to burn your mods by mistake, hard to get it to work when you need it the most. Well designed interface CCP!

James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.17 19:48:00 - [71] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: James Lyrus Then it'd be as agile as a prowler with the same fit (but only since trinity) The Crane is slightly faster in warp than the Prowler now, both having the same number of inertia stabilizers. A Prowler fitting two is left with a tank even crappier than what it gets now with a medium shield booster. The Crane needed tanking gear all take 1 grid, while you have to reserve some grid for a medium booster for the Prowler, and even with it it will be a worse tank for blockade running purpose than what the Crane enjoy. It's not like boosting the Crane would be the end of the world, but blockade runners are pretty well balanced now and dev time would be better spent on more glaring issues. Like boosting the Breacher I'm confused. Why are you fitting a medium shield booster and a PDS on a prowler? -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2007.12.17 20:01:00 - [72] Originally by: James Lyrus I'm confused. Why are you fitting a medium shield booster and a PDS on a prowler? With only 2 tanking mids and less shield than the crane to start with looks like the best choice, you have another setup to share? It's very hard to shoehorn a medium extender and it takes 9 seconds (3 cycles) to a medium booster to be better than a small extender and that while not increasing the sig radius. And a two invuln configuration is more than 2000 effective HP shy of the crane setup I posted. -- Heat, easy to burn your mods by mistake, hard to get it to work when you need it the most. Well designed interface CCP!
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.17 20:26:00 - [73] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: James Lyrus I'm confused. Why are you fitting a medium shield booster and a PDS on a prowler? With only 2 tanking mids and less shield than the crane to start with looks like the best choice, you have another setup to share? It's very hard to shoehorn a medium extender and it takes 9 seconds (3 cycles) to a medium booster to be better than a small extender and that while not increasing the sig radius. And a two invuln configuration is more than 2000 effective HP shy of the crane setup I posted. Each invuln on a prowler is 1500 ehp or so. That's 40 seconds or so (assuming you have transports 5 of course, which I certainly don't) of shield boosting. Your cap lasts just about 41s if you have a PDS II, Y-T and medium booster II fitted, but I'm fairly sure if you're needing to tank that long, you're already dead. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2007.12.17 21:26:00 - [74] Originally by: James Lyrus Each invuln on a prowler is 1500 ehp or so. That's 40 seconds or so (assuming you have transports 5 of course, which I certainly don't) of shield boosting. Your cap lasts just about 41s if you have a PDS II, Y-T and medium booster II fitted, but I'm fairly sure if you're needing to tank that long, you're already dead. Hum you're right, shame than none of the transport is best of using its tanking bonus... -- Heat, easy to burn your mods by mistake, hard to get it to work when you need it the most. Well designed interface CCP!
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.17 21:34:00 - [75] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: James Lyrus Each invuln on a prowler is 1500 ehp or so. That's 40 seconds or so (assuming you have transports 5 of course, which I certainly don't) of shield boosting. Your cap lasts just about 41s if you have a PDS II, Y-T and medium booster II fitted, but I'm fairly sure if you're needing to tank that long, you're already dead. Hum you're right, shame than none of the transport is best of using its tanking bonus... True enough. I'd love to see a resists or HP bonus. That at least, would be useful. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Ulstan	Posted - 2007.12.17 23:08:00 - [76] I think first I'd like to see the transport ships get actually useful bonuses. Then if any problems remain, we can maybe add power grid to the Crane. But until the useless bonuses are fixed, I feel like 4 power grid here and there, while still an issue, is a very minor one. Fix transport and AF bonuses! :)
Ebusitanus Segunda Fundacion	Posted - 2008.01.14 08:57:00 - [77] Bump for a worthy cause! ------------------------------------------------ "Stop quoting laws, we carry weapons!" Pompey the Great to the defenders of a besieged city who were crying outrage.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2008.01.16 22:49:00 - [78] Originally by: Ulstan I think first I'd like to see the transport ships get actually useful bonuses. Then if any problems remain, we can maybe add power grid to the Crane. But until the useless bonuses are fixed, I feel like 4 power grid here and there, while still an issue, is a very minor one. Fix transport and AF bonuses! :) I disagree. 4 powergrid is MORE of an issue than the bonus being worthless. The latter affects all the ships equally, where the crane remains the only one that has quite that much trouble fitting a MWD. Transport ships remain usable without having a decent ship skill bonus, where not having the power grid to fit a MWD is crippling. But shrug. Useless bonuses becoming useful would be nice too though. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Harlequ1n FireTech Pure.	Posted - 2008.02.02 18:49:00 - [79] Well with all the proposed ship changes coming out, time to start beating the Transport ship drum again. More Power to the Crane! Only +4pg required! Oh, and lets have a useful transport ship bonus while were in the boost mood....
Ezekiel Sulastin Gallente Eve University	Posted - 2008.02.02 19:55:00 - [80] /signed, and I don't even fly the Crane! Lets get an AGI or HP boost or something, especially now that we have HICs to deal with ...

Ally Poo White Wolves Syndicate EVESpace	Posted - 2008.02.22 02:16:00 - [81] /signed ===============Sleep is for the Dead===============
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.02.22 05:03:00 - [82] After re-reading this thread, and playing around some more with BR's, my position has now changed: Crane should definitely get another 4 PG so it can fit the cloak + MWD without sacrificing a low slot to a fitting mod that no other BR (all with more low slots) have to sacrifice.
Tweee	Posted - 2008.02.22 12:34:00 - [83] /signed
Mephistophilis Cygnus Alpha Syndicate	Posted - 2008.02.22 12:35:00 - [84] Signed
Aldelphius Carbide Industries	Posted - 2008.02.22 17:37:00 - [85] /signed And I would like to see the transport skill bonus be usefull, mabey 1-2% agility and 1-2% reduction in mass per level?
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates	Posted - 2008.02.22 18:34:00 - [86] Originally by: Aldelphius /signed And I would like to see the transport skill bonus be usefull, mabey 1-2% agility and 1-2% reduction in mass per level? I'm not sure blockade runners need more agility and speed. What i'd like to see is a sig reduction or a resists bonus. Or maybe even an ECM burst optimal. Or hell, just a '+1 blinky lights per level' bonus. That'd at least be more use :) -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Herio Mortis 54th Knights Templar THORN Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.24 01:24:00 - [87] Just another signature for this, the crane really needs at least 4 more PG.
AKULA UrQuan STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.24 02:35:00 - [88] /signed Also, With all the ways to stop ships in their tracks these days the whole blockade runner concept needs some love. Like ditching the useless tanking bonus for an agility bonus.
Kesslee Water and Power	Posted - 2008.03.24 02:42:00 - [89] /Signed 4 more grid please CCP, or I'll be forced to train Minmatar Industrial 5
Derek Sigres Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.24 04:30:00 - [90] /signed And I'd have to agree, any sort of active tanking bonus on a blockade runner is just shy of useless. I'd rather have a resist or pure HP bonus instead since in all reality the buffer is the only thing that's going to save you when you come under fire. In the time it takes to burn to the gate I could potentially cycle a shield booster 2 - 3 times. I'd rather just save the slot and have 25% more HP off the bat.



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