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Tassill
Minmatar
GREY COUNCIL
Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.09.12 13:13:00 -
[1]
Why are Caldari ships, the racial shield tankers so heavy in relation to the other races.
I heard the caldari ships were lighter once, but at the time dual mwd could be placed on em. So they made them heavier and then never changed it back once they fixxed the mwd's.
As an example
Cerberus: Mass = 13750000kg, Volume = 85000m3, Armor = 1196, Structure = 1406, Velocity = 185m/s
Zealot: Mass = 11950000kg, Volume = 85000m3, Armor = 2250, Structure = 1688, Velocity = 215m/s
So here the armour tanking race Amarr have a ship with more armour and more structure than their caldari counterpart. Yet they seem to be able to do this using a lower total mass than the cerb.
The same can be found through almost all ship classes. Amarr and Galente the armour tanking races consistanly have ships with more structure, more armor yet lower mass's than caldari. It seems very ilogical to me.
Why is this so?
Should it be changed?
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Xaen
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.09.12 13:13:00 -
[2]
They have to carry around the huge ass egos of CNR pilots.
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Support fixing the EVE UI
Drones should not aggro anything missiles or turrets do not. |
Atius Tirawa
Minmatar
Wreckless Abandon
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.09.12 13:20:00 -
[3]
game ballance.
To make caldari ships super fast would make missle spammers too powerful.
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Benn Helmsman
Caldari
Helmsman Engineering Company
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Posted - 2007.09.12 13:20:00 -
[4]
youth sins....
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Drek Grapper
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.09.12 13:31:00 -
[5]
Fat and ugly go well together. 
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Michael Schumacher won many a formula one race. Alot of the time he didn't win because he had a better car...he won because HE WAS A BETTER DRIVER and because he used SUPERIOR TACTICS. |
Magazaki
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Posted - 2007.09.12 13:32:00 -
[6]
Q: Why are Caldari ships heavy and slow?
A: Because with their fantastic range, if caldari ships were light and fast they would kite everyone to death and would be OMGWTFBBQIMBA (sort of)
Q: Why are Caldari ships SO UNBELIEVABLY heavy and slow?
A: No reason at all. Simply put, they should be faster, at about Gallente Standards, at least the gunboats should be.
Q: Why should the Caldari Gunboats should be faster, like Gallente?
A: Because their short-range setups are NOT the longest range of the short range ships (i.e. where kiting matters most), the Amarr usually are with their Pulse lasers, and short range is where kiting matters.
Q: But aren't the Caldari missile ships too heavy and slow even taking that into consideration?
a: Yes they are, the Caldari missile boats, even taking their very good medium range damage, should be just about as fast as the Amarr ships, or FRACTIONALLY slower. Their unbelievably big mass is a great disadvantage, whose value is about one nano PLUS one overdrive, giving them effectively a TWO SLOT penalty compared to the rest of the world, which, simply, is too much and unneeded because there is no real bonus to compensate. They should be just as slow as/fractionally slower than the last (amarr) as a means of preventing too many kiting setups, not as a means of handicapping them
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Hammerfall Ceo
Caldari
Hammerfall Industries
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Posted - 2007.09.12 13:33:00 -
[7]
Because otherwise Caldari would be balanced. But Caldari must be underpowered in PVP. All the dev's like/are Minmatards.
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Shadowsword
COLSUP
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.09.12 13:33:00 -
[8]
 Originally by: Tassill
Why is this so?
Because gallente ships needs to be able to catch up to them to use their blasters. It's as simple as that.
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What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs. |
Tassi
The Cruciform
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Posted - 2007.09.12 13:44:00 -
[9]
dude ... thats my nick 
Originally by: fire 59
i don't know of any bobs that have cheated
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iiOs
Evil Things
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Posted - 2007.09.12 13:47:00 -
[10]
they have heavy computers ( and thats not BS, thats what devs said).....
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Ral Ulgur
InQuest Ascension
R i s e
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Posted - 2007.09.12 13:49:00 -
[11]
Caldari ships always pack alot of BREE in their storage holds. That's where the extra mass comes from.
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Vardemis
Tabula Rasa Systems
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.09.12 13:50:00 -
[12]
Why should a ship that is primarily shield tanking be any lighter then an armor tanking ship? Shield generators and electronic equipment have a weight too. So that argument doesn't really count. :)
However, the caldari ships are overall quite heavy, no doubt about it. I think it is mainly done to reduce the chance of kiting, at any range. The main weapons of Caldari ships, Standard ML, Heavy ML, Cruise ML, Siege ML, all have a far superior range compared to turrets of the same class. There is no different ammunition needed to gain additonal range while taking damage penalties.
Overall it looks to me that the majority of the Caldari ships are designed to snipe, giving them the lowest speed and highest mass of all seems fairly reasonable to balance things out. |
MITSUK0
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Posted - 2007.09.12 13:54:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Vardemis
Why should a ship that is primarily shield tanking be any lighter then an armor tanking ship? Shield generators and electronic equipment have a weight too. So that argument doesn't really count. :)
So a shield generator is heavyer than several 1600mm layers of rolled tungsten armor plating?
Right...
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NoNah
Unseen University
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Posted - 2007.09.12 13:54:00 -
[14]
Originally by: iiOs
they have heavy computers ( and thats not BS, thats what devs said).....
.. source?
Gallente are primarily a drone/blaster faction.
Amarr are pulse/beam laser.
Minmatar Projectile/missile.
Caldari are rail/missile.
Missiles are slow but deal the absolutley best damage at long range. Goes for both alpha and dps. They won't have the damage of the gallenteships on their blasterboats nor on the extreme range snipers, but everything in betwen, and they can outreach the gallenteboats - unless they go all the way to 249km.
Now if a ship can A) dicate range and B) outrange the opponent. It wins. It's as simple as that. Right now caldari can Outrange, but not dictate it - in every single situation. Nanocerbs and crow are still great ships - that will dictate range in most of the cases. If they got a general speedincrease - they would be nothing short of overpowered.
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iiOs
Evil Things
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Posted - 2007.09.12 13:55:00 -
[15]
Originally by: NoNah
Originally by: iiOs
they have heavy computers ( and thats not BS, thats what devs said).....
.. source?
.
have been said many times over the years, do a search and im sure you'll find it
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Emsee
Minmatar
S.Y.N.D.R.O.M.E.
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Posted - 2007.09.12 14:06:00 -
[16]
Truth. The Eve fluff states that the Caldari ships are always being stuffed with top of the line technology..... which explains why they dominate in PVP :3
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Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
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Posted - 2007.09.12 14:09:00 -
[17]
They're so heavy so they can't kite people with missiles.
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Juha85
Beasts of Burden
YouWhat
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Posted - 2007.09.12 14:13:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Tassill
Why is this so?
Because gallente ships needs to be able to catch up to them to use their blasters. It's as simple as that.
And thats why the caldari ships should be just marginally slower and heavier than gallente. At the moment any gallente ship can catch the caldari counterparts in matter of seconds which totally neglates the range bonus caldari has. Furthermore as blasters are highest damage weapons in the game they suffer from the short range they have. If this handicap would be totally compensated by the speed and mass of gallente ships they would be unbalanced. In short, Gallente is ment to struggle to get into that range since once they are in their optimal they will blow anything up without problems.
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Andre Ricard
Gallente
Templars of Space
Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.09.12 14:43:00 -
[19]
Originally by: NoNah
... Nanocerbs....
I lol'd
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.09.12 15:19:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 12/09/2007 15:20:01
Originally by: NoNah
Originally by: iiOs
they have heavy computers ( and thats not BS, thats what devs said).....
.. source?
Gallente are primarily a drone/blaster faction.
Amarr are pulse/beam laser.
Minmatar Projectile/missile.
Caldari are rail/missile.
Missiles are slow but deal the absolutley best damage at long range. Goes for both alpha and dps. They won't have the damage of the gallenteships on their blasterboats nor on the extreme range snipers, but everything in betwen, and they can outreach the gallenteboats - unless they go all the way to 249km.
Now if a ship can A) dicate range and B) outrange the opponent. It wins. It's as simple as that. Right now caldari can Outrange, but not dictate it - in every single situation. Nanocerbs and crow are still great ships - that will dictate range in most of the cases. If they got a general speedincrease - they would be nothing short of overpowered.
I think you're forgetting something NoNah. For instance, nobody is able to actually a mid-range engagement. The other side simply warps out.
This is why Amarr generally have problems in PVP, and Caldari simply suck. Mid-range engagements don't happen - and two entire races are balanced around them.
Also, what's up with the 20km HAM boost for Amarr, eh? Speedy missile ships would be imbalanced? Why'd they make the Sac *EVEN FASTER*?
Liang
Yarr? |
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NoNah
Unseen University
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Posted - 2007.09.12 15:25:00 -
[21]
Not quite, see that argument would mean the Khanid mk2 changes didnt help amarr(well khanid) at all, right?
No, you won't be able to maintain a midrange distance for endured battles - however as you will deal any/more damage before the opponent is in optimal... it's a damagebonus in itself.
But theres not really anything more to say about it. If a ship can outrange all ships and still dictate range, they will win. Not saying caldari or amarr should be the way they are - just saying that a flat speedbonus(be it agility, mass or base velocity) to them WOULD make them the fotm solopwnmobile.
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MITSUK0
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Posted - 2007.09.12 15:30:00 -
[22]
Incoming nano sac whines
Seriously, that thing makes a mockery of caldari ships 
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.09.12 15:58:00 -
[23]
Originally by: NoNah
Not quite, see that argument would mean the Khanid mk2 changes didnt help amarr(well khanid) at all, right?
No, you won't be able to maintain a midrange distance for endured battles - however as you will deal any/more damage before the opponent is in optimal... it's a damagebonus in itself.
But theres not really anything more to say about it. If a ship can outrange all ships and still dictate range, they will win. Not saying caldari or amarr should be the way they are - just saying that a flat speedbonus(be it agility, mass or base velocity) to them WOULD make them the fotm solopwnmobile.
Sure, you can't go stupid on the speed/mass bonus. I'd be just as unhappy as anyone else if my Myrmidon couldn't catch a Drake. But making them overwhelmingly slower than every other race really isn't a good solution either. 
So, my argument with the Nano-Sac is that its obvious that CCP does not agree with the whole idea that "nano-fast-missile-boats-r-teh-uber-pwn". Otherwise they would not have just made one.
Now, another thing that you're not considering is that speed trumps distance - every single time. So your optimal is 10km further out? Awesome, it takes me 4 more seconds to get there, and web you, and kill you. It's just the simple truth.
I don't think anyone is saying that Caldari ships should be faster than everyone else. I don't think they're saying that they should even be the same speed as everyone else.
No, they're saying that they should be a little slower, and maybe a little more massive. Both slower *and* more massive is just an unnecessary nerf.
Liang
Yarr? |
NoNah
Unseen University
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Posted - 2007.09.12 16:11:00 -
[24]
Ah, but see, catching up 10km on 4 seconds, that would imply caldariships are 2500m/s slower than the other ship?
I'm not saying caldari ships shouldnt be a tad lighter, that might very well be the best option, or better yet, give caldari a module that allows faster flight, at cost of flight time. (Same range, but alot better "tracking" and less delay.) Though as op describes it, its a general caldari problem - which is not the case.
Oh, and reading the op again, there is no reason what so ever why shields should be lighter than armor.
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.09.12 16:37:00 -
[25]
Originally by: NoNah
Ah, but see, catching up 10km on 4 seconds, that would imply caldariships are 2500m/s slower than the other ship?
I'm not saying caldari ships shouldnt be a tad lighter, that might very well be the best option, or better yet, give caldari a module that allows faster flight, at cost of flight time. (Same range, but alot better "tracking" and less delay.) Though as op describes it, its a general caldari problem - which is not the case.
Oh, and reading the op again, there is no reason what so ever why shields should be lighter than armor.
I dunno that the module would be the right answer. You also have to remember that Caldari ships lack lows for the nano-setups - on top of having a 2-3 slot penalty to speed.
There's nothing at all wrong with just lightening Caldari up some, and boosting their speed a bit. I don't think it needs to be much - maybe cut the gap between Gallente/Amarr and Caldari in half in those regards.
Oh - and there are *great* reasons why Armor should be heavier than shields. For instance, it makes no (physical) sense. ;-)
Liang
Yarr? |
Zixxa
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Posted - 2007.09.12 16:45:00 -
[26]
Originally by: NoNah
Originally by: iiOs
they have heavy computers ( and thats not BS, thats what devs said).....
Missiles are slow but deal the absolutley best damage at long range. Goes for both alpha and dps.
Kiddie!
Alpha strike is ZERO for missile boat. Z E R O! Period.
Absolutely best damage at long range is done by TURRETS ship. T U R R E T S! Period.
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"Zealot is sniper, because Dominix has better tank" (c) Goumindong
R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven>
R.I.P. <ECM>
R.I.P. <Drake>
R.I.P. Nosferatu
R.I.P. <Curse> and |
NoNah
Unseen University
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Posted - 2007.09.12 16:46:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
There's nothing at all wrong with just lightening Caldari up some, and boosting their speed a bit. I don't think it needs to be much - maybe cut the gap between Gallente/Amarr and Caldari in half in those regards.
I think the crow speaks for itself... Great example.
Quote:
Oh - and there are *great* reasons why Armor should be heavier than shields. For instance, it makes no (physical) sense. ;-)
Liang
Why so? Where is the density of a shield generator stated? Where is the volume of a shield generator stated? So the partially hollow 1600mm plates of armour should weigh more ey?
Postcount: 735127
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2007.09.12 16:46:00 -
[28]
Because devs despise Caldari.
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"Zealot is sniper, because Dominix has better tank" (c) Goumindong
R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven>
R.I.P. <ECM>
R.I.P. <Drake>
R.I.P. Nosferatu
R.I.P. <Curse> and |
iiOs
Evil Things
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Posted - 2007.09.12 16:47:00 -
[29]
Originally by: NoNah
Originally by: Liang Nuren
There's nothing at all wrong with just lightening Caldari up some, and boosting their speed a bit. I don't think it needs to be much - maybe cut the gap between Gallente/Amarr and Caldari in half in those regards.
I think the crow speaks for itself... Great example.
Quote:
Oh - and there are *great* reasons why Armor should be heavier than shields. For instance, it makes no (physical) sense. ;-)
Liang
Why so? Where is the density of a shield generator stated? Where is the volume of a shield generator stated? So the partially hollow 1600mm plates of armour should weigh more ey?
look at size of amarr and caldari ships
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ReePeR McAllem
The Carebear Stare
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Posted - 2007.09.12 17:40:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Ral Ulgur
Caldari ships always pack alot of BREE in their storage holds. That's where the extra mass comes from.
rofl !
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