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Why are Caldari ships so heavy?

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Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.09.12 17:53:00 - [31] sac isnt a good example for speeding up caldari as the sac is a close range missle ship, with bonuses to HAMs, keeping it within 20km. some extra speed wouldnt hurt tho. Originally by: Snuggly It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
FokkeWulf Amarr Duty.	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:14:00 - [32] The thing is, it'd be very hard to balance. Close range ships have to be able to catch the long range ships, or nobody will ever fly them. If a Drake can keep distance from a Brutix at 20km, then it'd be unstoppable. Just a random example, but you see what I mean. In addition, Caldari ships primarily use missiles, which of course do not use tracking. Make Caldari ships much faster, and the plague of Nano-Drakes and Ravens that will ensue would quite possibly bring about the apocalypse. "Duty. - Peace through negotiable firepower."
ShadowlordUK	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:15:00 - [33] For reasons why caldari should remain the race with the slowest base speed, see Crow. People who say caldari are bad in pvp are simply shortsighted. Everybody likes to follow the crowd but very few actually think for themselves. If you take the raven for instance. Best all round tank vs gank of any bs... until the rokh came along, also caldari. You dont need mid slots for scrambling etc, because you simply dont do that in a bs. You dont care about time to dps because if your fleet is commanded by somebody who cant pick seperate targets for the components of his fleet to primary you should elect a new fc. If people warp out to avoid dmg, what the hell were your tacklers doing? and who cares anyway, they just left their mates to die and you collect the loot. There isnt a single good pvp reason not to use caldari. Just a lot bad reasons people regurgitate because they arent good enough to know better
Queen Hopy Your Friendly Booster Company	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:20:00 - [34] Originally by: FokkeWulf The thing is, it'd be very hard to balance. Close range ships have to be able to catch the long range ships, or nobody will ever fly them. If a Drake can keep distance from a Brutix at 20km, then it'd be unstoppable. Just a random example, but you see what I mean. In addition, Caldari ships primarily use missiles, which of course do not use tracking. Make Caldari ships much faster, and the plague of Nano-Drakes and Ravens that will ensue would quite possibly bring about the apocalypse. Yes but at the moment close range ships can close on the caldari missile ships way too fast effectively making their extra range useless. Its not balanced that way either
FokkeWulf Amarr Duty.	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:26:00 - [35] Originally by: Queen HopyYes but at the moment close range ships can close on the caldari missile ships way too fast effectively making their extra range useless. Its not balanced that way either[/quote True enough. it's a very tough call, and god only knows Caldari need SOMETHING to help them in PvP. I'm just not convinced this would be the best way to do it. Again I presnt you with the nano-craze as an example :D "Duty. - Peace through negotiable firepower."
Damned Force	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:32:00 - [36] Originally by: Queen Hopy Originally by: FokkeWulf The thing is, it'd be very hard to balance. Close range ships have to be able to catch the long range ships, or nobody will ever fly them. If a Drake can keep distance from a Brutix at 20km, then it'd be unstoppable. Just a random example, but you see what I mean. In addition, Caldari ships primarily use missiles, which of course do not use tracking. Make Caldari ships much faster, and the plague of Nano-Drakes and Ravens that will ensue would quite possibly bring about the apocalypse. Yes but at the moment close range ships can close on the caldari missile ships way too fast effectively making their extra range useless. Its not balanced that way either 100% agree And if the Caldari ships got a bit extra speed and a bit less mass they would be no nanoBS's either. The close range ships could catch them just not so fast. Is true they should not be faster than short range ships, but if the short range ship can be in webrange in some secs that is unbalanced too. In this case the shortrange ship can use his advantage, but the longrange ship cant. If the longrange would be faster, than the shortrange could not get in range. that would be unbalance too. So devs need to find a middle way. ATM caldari ships are way too slow.
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:33:00 - [37] This is so because they are made of solid steel, and not of wood, like the dominix for expamle
Queen Hopy Your Friendly Booster Company	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:36:00 - [38] Originally by: Damned Force 100% agree And if the Caldari ships got a bit extra speed and a bit less mass they would be no nanoBS's either. The close range ships could catch them just not so fast. Is true they should not be faster than short range ships, but if the short range ship can be in webrange in some secs that is unbalanced too. In this case the shortrange ship can use his advantage, but the longrange ship cant. If the longrange would be faster, than the shortrange could not get in range. that would be unbalance too. So devs need to find a middle way. ATM caldari ships are way too slow. Yes, and this is why caldari could be very well brought to an equal speed with amarr. Actually amarr&caldari should be just a bit slower than gallente.
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:43:00 - [39] Originally by: Magazaki Q: But aren't the Caldari missile ships too heavy and slow even taking that into consideration? a: Yes they are, the Caldari missile boats, even taking their very good medium range damage, should be just about as fast as the Amarr ships, or FRACTIONALLY slower. Their unbelievably big mass is a great disadvantage, whose value is about one nano PLUS one overdrive, giving them effectively a TWO SLOT penalty compared to the rest of the world, which, simply, is too much and unneeded because there is no real bonus to compensate. They should be just as slow as/fractionally slower than the last (amarr) as a means of preventing too many kiting setups, not as a means of handicapping them Even with EIGHT low slots with tracking enhancers and EIGHT tracking comps AND a few extra ships with MORE tracking links won't allow turrets to hit every time a projectile reaches the enemy. That basically means that every turret based ships has a GAZILLION SLOT penalty compared to every missile ship out there, which, simply, is to much and unneeded because there is no real bonus to compensate. The turret boats should hit targets just as good as any missile boat. Btw, amarr aren't the slowest race in game (Ammarr has amongst others the second fastest BS, interceptor and in a few other classes as well). Perhaps try flying some different ship races before commenting on balance. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:51:00 - [40] Originally by: Damned Force And if the Caldari ships got a bit extra speed and a bit less mass they would be no nanoBS's either. The close range ships could catch them just not so fast. Euhm? Long range is 75 km+, let's be social and take 75 km with full level5 skills for each ship used: Megathron with a t2 100 mn mwd: 1213 m/s Raven with a t2 100 mn mwd: 708 m/s 1213-708=505 m/s diffrence total distance to cover is 75000 m. 75000/505=149 seconds. you think two and a half minute isn't enough? --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs

Praxis1452	Posted - 2007.09.12 19:16:00 - [41] Originally by: Shevar Originally by: Damned Force And if the Caldari ships got a bit extra speed and a bit less mass they would be no nanoBS's either. The close range ships could catch them just not so fast. Euhm? Long range is 75 km+, let's be social and take 75 km with full level5 skills for each ship used: Megathron with a t2 100 mn mwd: 1213 m/s Raven with a t2 100 mn mwd: 708 m/s 1213-708=505 m/s diffrence total distance to cover is 75000 m. 75000/505=149 seconds. you think two and a half minute isn't enough? A megathron is going to travel 75km to a target? really? If it even tries lets say it goes down to half armor. Warp out. The fact that disruptors and warp scrambs only work <24km max make close range the weapon of choice. Overall it benefits people who solo.
Magazaki	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:44:00 - [42] Edited by: Magazaki on 12/09/2007 22:45:46 Originally by: NoNah Originally by: Liang Nuren Oh - and there are great reasons why Armor should be heavier than shields. For instance, it makes no (physical) sense. ;-)Liang Why so? Where is the density of a shield generator stated? Where is the volume of a shield generator stated? So the partially hollow 1600mm plates of armour should weigh more ey? Shield Extender penalty: + Signature Radius Armor Plate penalty: + Mass Minmatar shield ships: OMGWTF speed. And I don't think they are making more efficient shield generators than Caldari. But were we not discussing balance and not pseudoscience? Originally by: James Lyrus Torpedos and cruise missiles used to hit everything for full damage. You used to be able to load cruise missiles on kestrels and blackbirds. ECMs used to be awesome. Dual MWD ravens used to be zomgzoomy. ERm. Missed anything? Mass got stomped down to fix imbalance. The underlying causes were fixed. No one cares enough to sort the mass. Exactly! Originally by: ShadowlordUK For reasons why caldari should remain the race with the slowest base speed, see Crow. No, that is the reason not to be faster by a big margin than the slowest. I don't think anyone says caldari should be the fastest, but being THAT slower is a needless slap in the face. Quote: People who say caldari are bad in pvp are simply shortsighted. Everybody likes to follow the crowd but very few actually think for themselves. If you take the raven for instance. Best all round tank vs gank of any bs... until the rokh came along, also caldari. You dont need mid slots for scrambling etc, because you simply dont do that in a bs. You dont care about time to dps because if your fleet is commanded by somebody who cant pick seperate targets for the components of his fleet to primary you should elect a new fc. If people warp out to avoid dmg, what the hell were your tacklers doing? and who cares anyway, they just left their mates to die and you collect the loot. There isnt a single good pvp reason not to use caldari. Just a lot bad reasons people regurgitate because they arent good enough to know better Well, yes, but not exactly. The problem is not that they cannot pvp. At least I do. The problem is that they start with a needless handicap (sometimes two). The first handicap is TOO low speed. Slowest? Yes, together with amarr gunships. Slow as a brick? No, no reason to be that cruel. That's all I'm saying at least. NOT make caldari the fastest, just make them fight for last place with the next slowest. The second is that their Gunships, EXCEPT the harpy and the rokh which are perfectly fine, lack a turret. (Moa, Ferox et.c.) They can fly, I use them, but a great deal of ships are needlessly "handicapped" compared to the competition.
Magazaki	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:52:00 - [43] Originally by: Shevar Originally by: Magazaki Q: But aren't the Caldari missile ships too heavy and slow even taking that into consideration? a: Yes they are, the Caldari missile boats, even taking their very good medium range damage, should be just about as fast as the Amarr ships, or FRACTIONALLY slower. Their unbelievably big mass is a great disadvantage, whose value is about one nano PLUS one overdrive, giving them effectively a TWO SLOT penalty compared to the rest of the world, which, simply, is too much and unneeded because there is no real bonus to compensate. They should be just as slow as/fractionally slower than the last (amarr) as a means of preventing too many kiting setups, not as a means of handicapping them Even with EIGHT low slots with tracking enhancers and EIGHT tracking comps AND a few extra ships with MORE tracking links won't allow turrets to hit every time a projectile reaches the enemy. That basically means that every turret based ships has a GAZILLION SLOT penalty compared to every missile ship out there, which, simply, is to much and unneeded because there is no real bonus to compensate. The turret boats should hit targets just as good as any missile boat. I really love your logic. You should teach me trollspeak some time. But just in case you belie that bull** you're spewing, let me remind you that it is actual DPS that matters and not how many shots land. I am comparing apples to apples (ships to ships, mass to mass, speed to speed). You're comparing oranges to home cinemas. Quote:** Btw, amarr aren't the slowest race in game (Ammarr has amongst others the second fastest BS, interceptor and in a few other classes as well). Perhaps try flying some different ship races before commenting on balance. Trollspeak continued? Or reading comprehension problems? OF COURSE amarr are not the slowest race on average. CALDARI are, troll! that's what this thread is all about! And by a big margin, too. Amarr are next to last after minmatar and Gallente. Or did you forget that we only have 4 races in the game?
arbalesttom	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:47:00 - [44] i did try to make a nanoraven/nanodrake/nanocaracal. It sucks. Too bad. Just start training Minimatar or Galente.
Andre Ricard Gallente Templars of Space	Posted - 2007.09.13 00:24:00 - [45] Edited by: Andre Ricard on 13/09/2007 00:25:08 Originally by: Shevar Originally by: Magazaki Q: But aren't the Caldari missile ships too heavy and slow even taking that into consideration? a: Yes they are, the Caldari missile boats, even taking their very good medium range damage, should be just about as fast as the Amarr ships, or FRACTIONALLY slower. Their unbelievably big mass is a great disadvantage, whose value is about one nano PLUS one overdrive, giving them effectively a TWO SLOT penalty compared to the rest of the world, which, simply, is too much and unneeded because there is no real bonus to compensate. They should be just as slow as/fractionally slower than the last (amarr) as a means of preventing too many kiting setups, not as a means of handicapping them Even with EIGHT low slots with tracking enhancers and EIGHT tracking comps AND a few extra ships with MORE tracking links won't allow turrets to hit every time a projectile reaches the enemy. That basically means that every turret based ships has a GAZILLION SLOT penalty compared to every missile ship out there, which, simply, is to much and unneeded because there is no real bonus to compensate. The turret boats should hit targets just as good as any missile boat. Btw, amarr aren't the slowest race in game (Ammarr has amongst others the second fastest BS, interceptor and in a few other classes as well). Perhaps try flying some different ship races before commenting on balance. that is so wrong. A once an ity breaks a certain speed, it is IMMUNE(meaning DPS so low, it doesn't break a FRIG'S natural shield recharge) to missile damage of any sized missile. Yet, with a bit of luck even a sieged dread (other than phoenix) can hit a 20km/s MWDing inty if it travels too straight for too long, there isn't a missile in the game that could hit it. 1010011010
Rafus Life Extermination	Posted - 2007.09.13 01:13:00 - [46] Originally by: Atius Tirawa game ballance. To make caldari ships super fast would make missle spammers too powerful. The good old days where my Caldari char was even more pwnage. Dual MWD raven FTW
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.13 01:49:00 - [47] The minute that missiles depend on the speed of the ship firing it is the minute that a balanced sitatution lets Caldari have their speed back. That is why you dont see a bunch of wtfpwn Gallente/Amarr speed ships, you have to slow down to do damage.
Chainsaw Plankton	Posted - 2007.09.13 01:52:00 - [48] Originally by: NoNah Of course, who would want 900 dps at 150km when you can do 500 with the abaddon! factoring in the 20-30 second flight time and the 2-3 volleys the rest of the rest of the fleet has fired off and ouch.... that is 0 dps and 0 alpha, its already gone pop.
Fager Xel'Naga Corp	Posted - 2007.09.13 02:19:00 - [49] Originally by: Goumindong The minute that missiles depend on the speed of the ship firing it is the minute that a balanced sitatution lets Caldari have their speed back. That is why you dont see a bunch of wtfpwn Gallente/Amarr speed ships, you have to slow down to do damage. The minute midrange combat is a good choice to battle in is the minute youll see Caldari pilots stop nagging about the slowness. And probably a few amarrians to to boot! And again, do you see any gallantean ships speedtanking today with no dmg modds on? Do you see any speedtanking gallantean droneships today using drones as dmg since they dont need tracking? Did you see any speedtanking NOS-droneboats when NOS wasnt nerfed? why? Gallantean ships cant speedtank, Give caldari same or lower Mass, same or better agility and they will still have lower amount of lowslots, and way lower base speed STILL MAKING them slower then Gallantean ships. They will NEVER speedtank with that kind of speed. They would need minmatar base speed, base mass and base agility to do that. and even then with low lowslots it would be hard. The reason Caldari was mass and agility nerfed? Multiple MWD Ravens Missile always hit for full damage oversized missiles loaded Thats why caldari ships once could speedtank and shoot missiles. And do the chivalry raven. Not becouse their low mass, "good" base speed or high agility. Caldari has the lowest base speed generally (pretty much same as Amarr base speed). By giving caldari back its Agility and Mass, youll be giving them the option to sacrifice Tank for speed (not speedtank, speed). The kind of speed Gallante use to get close, caldari could use to get away. Oh and blasters having short range and being kited argument, well to compensate they got loltastic dmg and most of them got Drones that surprisingly is a close to midrange system similar to missiles. Blastherboats needs under 13km to win, Missiles needs to stay outside to win. Once inside 13km there is no way out. Once outside 13km, the blasterboat will get close very fast. Once outside 24kms the blasterboat will warp the second hes not getting close enough. With balanced speed caldari with sacrificed tank and damage mods for speed could unless catched stay outside 13km web, and also have an option of fleeing the battlefield. (make no mistake with speed fit, there is close to no tanking and then even drone becomse dangerous). Sorry for the rant, but Caldari will never speedtank with their original mass and agility.... They will never go untouched spewing missiles like a Vagabond. Unless they bring back oversized MWD/AB or multple MWDs. Im not saying Caldari needs the un-nerf or not, but saying theyll speedtank shooting missiles with it is riddiculus. Anything that would lighten up the midcombat area vs the closecombat or the sniping area would be welcome imo. (like heavy scrammers or webbers, taking highslots or great fitting reqs perhaps? Reaches midcombat, perhaps midcombat only? 20-60km or something?) "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Grant Miller	Posted - 2007.09.13 03:24:00 - [50] Alright guys, lets be serious. We're not asking for the drake to have 250 m/s here. I think the majority of Caldari pilots would like to have just maybe 15-20 m/s more than we do currently. We don't want our ships to be ridiculous OMGWTF pwnmobiles. We just want a little bit of speed and maneuverability. Flying a caldari ship is like driving a double decker bus.

Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.13 07:00:00 - [51] Originally by: Fager load of bunk Gallente cant speed tank not becasue they are not fast enough, but because blasters and rails dont lend well to speed tanking. See blasters wont hit above web range, and and rails need to have very low transversal in order to do damage. But i would ask you a question: Have you ever fought an Ishtar?
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.13 07:05:00 - [52] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Fager load of bunk Gallente cant speed tank not becasue they are not fast enough, but because blasters and rails dont lend well to speed tanking. See blasters wont hit above web range, and and rails need to have very low transversal in order to do damage. But i would ask you a question: Have you ever fought an Ishtar? Blah, nothing to flame. He's right. The Myrmidon might be able to speed tank if I wanted... but you'll have better results up close and personal. Liang Yarr?
Adrian Steel Caldari Knowledge Capsuleers	Posted - 2007.09.13 07:55:00 - [53] Originally by: ShadowlordUK There isnt a single good pvp reason not to use caldari. Just a lot bad reasons people regurgitate because they arent good enough to know better Confirmed. Probably one of the more intelligent posts here. Click above image for site link.
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.13 08:08:00 - [54] They need to be heavy in order to carry all the Honour required to fly them.
Julius Romanus Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2007.09.13 08:14:00 - [55] It's because they pack in so much fun. Aparantly it's heavy.
Proxy 13 Minmatar H. C. I. Corp	Posted - 2007.09.13 16:48:00 - [56] May be Caldaris ships are made for PvE or PPPPPPPPPvP
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.13 18:56:00 - [57] Edited by: Gypsio III on 13/09/2007 18:56:16 Quote: That is why you dont see a bunch of wtfpwn Gallente/Amarr speed ships, you have to slow down to do damage. Drones and nanoIshtar say no. Sure you can destroy the drones though. Eventually. After spending 30 damped seconds trying to lock and kill a dozen heavy drones, whilst they're being scooped and redeployed...
Rotten Hag	Posted - 2007.09.13 19:30:00 - [58] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Fager load of bunk Gallente cant speed tank not becasue they are not fast enough, but because blasters and rails dont lend well to speed tanking. See blasters wont hit above web range, and and rails need to have very low transversal in order to do damage. But i would ask you a question: Have you ever fought an Ishtar? Have you? please show me your killboard stats goumindong i have searched everywhere and u aint been a goon long enough to tell whether u are completely full of **** or just half.
Dheorl	Posted - 2007.09.13 19:34:00 - [59] RP: Look at the generators. Game: Dunno.
Corphus Aliastra	Posted - 2007.09.13 19:44:00 - [60] Edited by: Corphus on 13/09/2007 19:44:56 simple. look at the crow. yes its one of the 2 lightest ceptors and can go insaneley fast due to its low mass. now look at its weapons. yes missles. they do full dmg at any speed the pilot goes. now show me which turret interceptor can deal full dmg from 24km range at 7000m/s orbiting speed with a target moving 2000m/s. alright and now tell me why the crow cost 17 mil while all other ceptors go for around 4 - 9 mil a piece. if u understood the power of non tracking dependant speed tanking ships with enourmous capacitor ull understand that making caldari ship lighter would gain em an advantage not easily compensatable by the other races strong sides in combat.



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