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Tassill Minmatar GREY COUNCIL Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.09.12 13:13:00 - [1] Why are Caldari ships, the racial shield tankers so heavy in relation to the other races. I heard the caldari ships were lighter once, but at the time dual mwd could be placed on em. So they made them heavier and then never changed it back once they fixxed the mwd's. As an example Cerberus: Mass = 13750000kg, Volume = 85000m3, Armor = 1196, Structure = 1406, Velocity = 185m/s Zealot: Mass = 11950000kg, Volume = 85000m3, Armor = 2250, Structure = 1688, Velocity = 215m/s So here the armour tanking race Amarr have a ship with more armour and more structure than their caldari counterpart. Yet they seem to be able to do this using a lower total mass than the cerb. The same can be found through almost all ship classes. Amarr and Galente the armour tanking races consistanly have ships with more structure, more armor yet lower mass's than caldari. It seems very ilogical to me. Why is this so? Should it be changed?
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.09.12 13:13:00 - [2] They have to carry around the huge ass egos of CNR pilots. ----------- Support fixing the EVE UI Drones should not aggro anything missiles or turrets do not.
Atius Tirawa Minmatar Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.12 13:20:00 - [3] game ballance. To make caldari ships super fast would make missle spammers too powerful.
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.09.12 13:20:00 - [4] youth sins....
Drek Grapper Minmatar	Posted - 2007.09.12 13:31:00 - [5] Fat and ugly go well together. - Michael Schumacher won many a formula one race. Alot of the time he didn't win because he had a better car...he won because HE WAS A BETTER DRIVER and because he used SUPERIOR TACTICS.
Magazaki	Posted - 2007.09.12 13:32:00 - [6] Q: Why are Caldari ships heavy and slow? A: Because with their fantastic range, if caldari ships were light and fast they would kite everyone to death and would be OMGWTFBBQIMBA (sort of) Q: Why are Caldari ships SO UNBELIEVABLY heavy and slow? A: No reason at all. Simply put, they should be faster, at about Gallente Standards, at least the gunboats should be. Q: Why should the Caldari Gunboats should be faster, like Gallente? A: Because their short-range setups are NOT the longest range of the short range ships (i.e. where kiting matters most), the Amarr usually are with their Pulse lasers, and short range is where kiting matters. Q: But aren't the Caldari missile ships too heavy and slow even taking that into consideration? a: Yes they are, the Caldari missile boats, even taking their very good medium range damage, should be just about as fast as the Amarr ships, or FRACTIONALLY slower. Their unbelievably big mass is a great disadvantage, whose value is about one nano PLUS one overdrive, giving them effectively a TWO SLOT penalty compared to the rest of the world, which, simply, is too much and unneeded because there is no real bonus to compensate. They should be just as slow as/fractionally slower than the last (amarr) as a means of preventing too many kiting setups, not as a means of handicapping them
Hammerfall Ceo Caldari Hammerfall Industries	Posted - 2007.09.12 13:33:00 - [7] Because otherwise Caldari would be balanced. But Caldari must be underpowered in PVP. All the dev's like/are Minmatards.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.09.12 13:33:00 - [8] Originally by: Tassill Why is this so? Because gallente ships needs to be able to catch up to them to use their blasters. It's as simple as that. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Tassi The Cruciform	Posted - 2007.09.12 13:44:00 - [9] dude ... thats my nick Originally by: fire 59 i don't know of any bobs that have cheated
iiOs Evil Things	Posted - 2007.09.12 13:47:00 - [10] they have heavy computers ( and thats not BS, thats what devs said)..... ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- BB
Ral Ulgur InQuest Ascension R i s e	Posted - 2007.09.12 13:49:00 - [11] Caldari ships always pack alot of BREE in their storage holds. That's where the extra mass comes from.
Vardemis Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.09.12 13:50:00 - [12] Why should a ship that is primarily shield tanking be any lighter then an armor tanking ship? Shield generators and electronic equipment have a weight too. So that argument doesn't really count. :) However, the caldari ships are overall quite heavy, no doubt about it. I think it is mainly done to reduce the chance of kiting, at any range. The main weapons of Caldari ships, Standard ML, Heavy ML, Cruise ML, Siege ML, all have a far superior range compared to turrets of the same class. There is no different ammunition needed to gain additonal range while taking damage penalties. Overall it looks to me that the majority of the Caldari ships are designed to snipe, giving them the lowest speed and highest mass of all seems fairly reasonable to balance things out.
MITSUK0	Posted - 2007.09.12 13:54:00 - [13] Originally by: Vardemis Why should a ship that is primarily shield tanking be any lighter then an armor tanking ship? Shield generators and electronic equipment have a weight too. So that argument doesn't really count. :) So a shield generator is heavyer than several 1600mm layers of rolled tungsten armor plating? Right...
NoNah Unseen University	Posted - 2007.09.12 13:54:00 - [14] Originally by: iiOs they have heavy computers ( and thats not BS, thats what devs said)..... .. source? Gallente are primarily a drone/blaster faction. Amarr are pulse/beam laser. Minmatar Projectile/missile. Caldari are rail/missile. Missiles are slow but deal the absolutley best damage at long range. Goes for both alpha and dps. They won't have the damage of the gallenteships on their blasterboats nor on the extreme range snipers, but everything in betwen, and they can outreach the gallenteboats - unless they go all the way to 249km. Now if a ship can A) dicate range and B) outrange the opponent. It wins. It's as simple as that. Right now caldari can Outrange, but not dictate it - in every single situation. Nanocerbs and crow are still great ships - that will dictate range in most of the cases. If they got a general speedincrease - they would be nothing short of overpowered. Postcount: 572855
iiOs Evil Things	Posted - 2007.09.12 13:55:00 - [15] Originally by: NoNah Originally by: iiOs they have heavy computers ( and thats not BS, thats what devs said)..... .. source? . have been said many times over the years, do a search and im sure you'll find it ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- BB
Emsee Minmatar S.Y.N.D.R.O.M.E.	Posted - 2007.09.12 14:06:00 - [16] Truth. The Eve fluff states that the Caldari ships are always being stuffed with top of the line technology..... which explains why they dominate in PVP :3
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.09.12 14:09:00 - [17] They're so heavy so they can't kite people with missiles.
Juha85 Beasts of Burden YouWhat	Posted - 2007.09.12 14:13:00 - [18] Originally by: Shadowsword Originally by: Tassill Why is this so? Because gallente ships needs to be able to catch up to them to use their blasters. It's as simple as that. And thats why the caldari ships should be just marginally slower and heavier than gallente. At the moment any gallente ship can catch the caldari counterparts in matter of seconds which totally neglates the range bonus caldari has. Furthermore as blasters are highest damage weapons in the game they suffer from the short range they have. If this handicap would be totally compensated by the speed and mass of gallente ships they would be unbalanced. In short, Gallente is ment to struggle to get into that range since once they are in their optimal they will blow anything up without problems. ---------------------------------------
Andre Ricard Gallente Templars of Space Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.09.12 14:43:00 - [19] Originally by: NoNah ... Nanocerbs.... I lol'd 1010011010
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.12 15:19:00 - [20] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 12/09/2007 15:20:01 Originally by: NoNah Originally by: iiOs they have heavy computers ( and thats not BS, thats what devs said)..... .. source? Gallente are primarily a drone/blaster faction. Amarr are pulse/beam laser. Minmatar Projectile/missile. Caldari are rail/missile. Missiles are slow but deal the absolutley best damage at long range. Goes for both alpha and dps. They won't have the damage of the gallenteships on their blasterboats nor on the extreme range snipers, but everything in betwen, and they can outreach the gallenteboats - unless they go all the way to 249km. Now if a ship can A) dicate range and B) outrange the opponent. It wins. It's as simple as that. Right now caldari can Outrange, but not dictate it - in every single situation. Nanocerbs and crow are still great ships - that will dictate range in most of the cases. If they got a general speedincrease - they would be nothing short of overpowered. I think you're forgetting something NoNah. For instance, nobody is able to actually a mid-range engagement. The other side simply warps out. This is why Amarr generally have problems in PVP, and Caldari simply suck. Mid-range engagements don't happen - and two entire races are balanced around them. Also, what's up with the 20km HAM boost for Amarr, eh? Speedy missile ships would be imbalanced? Why'd they make the Sac EVEN FASTER? Liang Yarr?
NoNah Unseen University	Posted - 2007.09.12 15:25:00 - [21] Not quite, see that argument would mean the Khanid mk2 changes didnt help amarr(well khanid) at all, right? No, you won't be able to maintain a midrange distance for endured battles - however as you will deal any/more damage before the opponent is in optimal... it's a damagebonus in itself. But theres not really anything more to say about it. If a ship can outrange all ships and still dictate range, they will win. Not saying caldari or amarr should be the way they are - just saying that a flat speedbonus(be it agility, mass or base velocity) to them WOULD make them the fotm solopwnmobile. Postcount: 876716
MITSUK0	Posted - 2007.09.12 15:30:00 - [22] Incoming nano sac whines Seriously, that thing makes a mockery of caldari ships
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.12 15:58:00 - [23] Originally by: NoNah Not quite, see that argument would mean the Khanid mk2 changes didnt help amarr(well khanid) at all, right? No, you won't be able to maintain a midrange distance for endured battles - however as you will deal any/more damage before the opponent is in optimal... it's a damagebonus in itself. But theres not really anything more to say about it. If a ship can outrange all ships and still dictate range, they will win. Not saying caldari or amarr should be the way they are - just saying that a flat speedbonus(be it agility, mass or base velocity) to them WOULD make them the fotm solopwnmobile. Sure, you can't go stupid on the speed/mass bonus. I'd be just as unhappy as anyone else if my Myrmidon couldn't catch a Drake. But making them overwhelmingly slower than every other race really isn't a good solution either. So, my argument with the Nano-Sac is that its obvious that CCP does not agree with the whole idea that "nano-fast-missile-boats-r-teh-uber-pwn". Otherwise they would not have just made one. Now, another thing that you're not considering is that speed trumps distance - every single time. So your optimal is 10km further out? Awesome, it takes me 4 more seconds to get there, and web you, and kill you. It's just the simple truth. I don't think anyone is saying that Caldari ships should be faster than everyone else. I don't think they're saying that they should even be the same speed as everyone else. No, they're saying that they should be a little slower, and maybe a little more massive. Both slower and more massive is just an unnecessary nerf. Liang Yarr?
NoNah Unseen University	Posted - 2007.09.12 16:11:00 - [24] Ah, but see, catching up 10km on 4 seconds, that would imply caldariships are 2500m/s slower than the other ship? I'm not saying caldari ships shouldnt be a tad lighter, that might very well be the best option, or better yet, give caldari a module that allows faster flight, at cost of flight time. (Same range, but alot better "tracking" and less delay.) Though as op describes it, its a general caldari problem - which is not the case. Oh, and reading the op again, there is no reason what so ever why shields should be lighter than armor. Postcount: 38606
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.12 16:37:00 - [25] Originally by: NoNah Ah, but see, catching up 10km on 4 seconds, that would imply caldariships are 2500m/s slower than the other ship? I'm not saying caldari ships shouldnt be a tad lighter, that might very well be the best option, or better yet, give caldari a module that allows faster flight, at cost of flight time. (Same range, but alot better "tracking" and less delay.) Though as op describes it, its a general caldari problem - which is not the case. Oh, and reading the op again, there is no reason what so ever why shields should be lighter than armor. I dunno that the module would be the right answer. You also have to remember that Caldari ships lack lows for the nano-setups - on top of having a 2-3 slot penalty to speed. There's nothing at all wrong with just lightening Caldari up some, and boosting their speed a bit. I don't think it needs to be much - maybe cut the gap between Gallente/Amarr and Caldari in half in those regards. Oh - and there are great reasons why Armor should be heavier than shields. For instance, it makes no (physical) sense. ;-) Liang Yarr?
Zixxa	Posted - 2007.09.12 16:45:00 - [26] Originally by: NoNah Originally by: iiOs they have heavy computers ( and thats not BS, thats what devs said)..... Missiles are slow but deal the absolutley best damage at long range. Goes for both alpha and dps. Kiddie! Alpha strike is ZERO for missile boat. Z E R O! Period. Absolutely best damage at long range is done by TURRETS ship. T U R R E T S! Period. --------------------------------- "Zealot is sniper, because Dominix has better tank" (c) Goumindong R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake> R.I.P. Nosferatu R.I.P. <Curse> and
NoNah Unseen University	Posted - 2007.09.12 16:46:00 - [27] Originally by: Liang Nuren There's nothing at all wrong with just lightening Caldari up some, and boosting their speed a bit. I don't think it needs to be much - maybe cut the gap between Gallente/Amarr and Caldari in half in those regards. I think the crow speaks for itself... Great example. Quote: Oh - and there are great reasons why Armor should be heavier than shields. For instance, it makes no (physical) sense. ;-) Liang Why so? Where is the density of a shield generator stated? Where is the volume of a shield generator stated? So the partially hollow 1600mm plates of armour should weigh more ey? Postcount: 735127
Zixxa	Posted - 2007.09.12 16:46:00 - [28] Because devs despise Caldari. --------------------------------- "Zealot is sniper, because Dominix has better tank" (c) Goumindong R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake> R.I.P. Nosferatu R.I.P. <Curse> and
iiOs Evil Things	Posted - 2007.09.12 16:47:00 - [29] Originally by: NoNah Originally by: Liang Nuren There's nothing at all wrong with just lightening Caldari up some, and boosting their speed a bit. I don't think it needs to be much - maybe cut the gap between Gallente/Amarr and Caldari in half in those regards. I think the crow speaks for itself... Great example. Quote: Oh - and there are great reasons why Armor should be heavier than shields. For instance, it makes no (physical) sense. ;-) Liang Why so? Where is the density of a shield generator stated? Where is the volume of a shield generator stated? So the partially hollow 1600mm plates of armour should weigh more ey? look at size of amarr and caldari ships ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- BB
ReePeR McAllem The Carebear Stare	Posted - 2007.09.12 17:40:00 - [30] Originally by: Ral Ulgur Caldari ships always pack alot of BREE in their storage holds. That's where the extra mass comes from. rofl !
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.09.12 17:53:00 - [31] sac isnt a good example for speeding up caldari as the sac is a close range missle ship, with bonuses to HAMs, keeping it within 20km. some extra speed wouldnt hurt tho. Originally by: Snuggly It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
FokkeWulf Amarr Duty.	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:14:00 - [32] The thing is, it'd be very hard to balance. Close range ships have to be able to catch the long range ships, or nobody will ever fly them. If a Drake can keep distance from a Brutix at 20km, then it'd be unstoppable. Just a random example, but you see what I mean. In addition, Caldari ships primarily use missiles, which of course do not use tracking. Make Caldari ships much faster, and the plague of Nano-Drakes and Ravens that will ensue would quite possibly bring about the apocalypse. "Duty. - Peace through negotiable firepower."
ShadowlordUK	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:15:00 - [33] For reasons why caldari should remain the race with the slowest base speed, see Crow. People who say caldari are bad in pvp are simply shortsighted. Everybody likes to follow the crowd but very few actually think for themselves. If you take the raven for instance. Best all round tank vs gank of any bs... until the rokh came along, also caldari. You dont need mid slots for scrambling etc, because you simply dont do that in a bs. You dont care about time to dps because if your fleet is commanded by somebody who cant pick seperate targets for the components of his fleet to primary you should elect a new fc. If people warp out to avoid dmg, what the hell were your tacklers doing? and who cares anyway, they just left their mates to die and you collect the loot. There isnt a single good pvp reason not to use caldari. Just a lot bad reasons people regurgitate because they arent good enough to know better
Queen Hopy Your Friendly Booster Company	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:20:00 - [34] Originally by: FokkeWulf The thing is, it'd be very hard to balance. Close range ships have to be able to catch the long range ships, or nobody will ever fly them. If a Drake can keep distance from a Brutix at 20km, then it'd be unstoppable. Just a random example, but you see what I mean. In addition, Caldari ships primarily use missiles, which of course do not use tracking. Make Caldari ships much faster, and the plague of Nano-Drakes and Ravens that will ensue would quite possibly bring about the apocalypse. Yes but at the moment close range ships can close on the caldari missile ships way too fast effectively making their extra range useless. Its not balanced that way either
FokkeWulf Amarr Duty.	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:26:00 - [35] Originally by: Queen HopyYes but at the moment close range ships can close on the caldari missile ships way too fast effectively making their extra range useless. Its not balanced that way either[/quote True enough. it's a very tough call, and god only knows Caldari need SOMETHING to help them in PvP. I'm just not convinced this would be the best way to do it. Again I presnt you with the nano-craze as an example :D "Duty. - Peace through negotiable firepower."
Damned Force	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:32:00 - [36] Originally by: Queen Hopy Originally by: FokkeWulf The thing is, it'd be very hard to balance. Close range ships have to be able to catch the long range ships, or nobody will ever fly them. If a Drake can keep distance from a Brutix at 20km, then it'd be unstoppable. Just a random example, but you see what I mean. In addition, Caldari ships primarily use missiles, which of course do not use tracking. Make Caldari ships much faster, and the plague of Nano-Drakes and Ravens that will ensue would quite possibly bring about the apocalypse. Yes but at the moment close range ships can close on the caldari missile ships way too fast effectively making their extra range useless. Its not balanced that way either 100% agree And if the Caldari ships got a bit extra speed and a bit less mass they would be no nanoBS's either. The close range ships could catch them just not so fast. Is true they should not be faster than short range ships, but if the short range ship can be in webrange in some secs that is unbalanced too. In this case the shortrange ship can use his advantage, but the longrange ship cant. If the longrange would be faster, than the shortrange could not get in range. that would be unbalance too. So devs need to find a middle way. ATM caldari ships are way too slow.
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:33:00 - [37] This is so because they are made of solid steel, and not of wood, like the dominix for expamle
Queen Hopy Your Friendly Booster Company	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:36:00 - [38] Originally by: Damned Force 100% agree And if the Caldari ships got a bit extra speed and a bit less mass they would be no nanoBS's either. The close range ships could catch them just not so fast. Is true they should not be faster than short range ships, but if the short range ship can be in webrange in some secs that is unbalanced too. In this case the shortrange ship can use his advantage, but the longrange ship cant. If the longrange would be faster, than the shortrange could not get in range. that would be unbalance too. So devs need to find a middle way. ATM caldari ships are way too slow. Yes, and this is why caldari could be very well brought to an equal speed with amarr. Actually amarr&caldari should be just a bit slower than gallente.
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:43:00 - [39] Originally by: Magazaki Q: But aren't the Caldari missile ships too heavy and slow even taking that into consideration? a: Yes they are, the Caldari missile boats, even taking their very good medium range damage, should be just about as fast as the Amarr ships, or FRACTIONALLY slower. Their unbelievably big mass is a great disadvantage, whose value is about one nano PLUS one overdrive, giving them effectively a TWO SLOT penalty compared to the rest of the world, which, simply, is too much and unneeded because there is no real bonus to compensate. They should be just as slow as/fractionally slower than the last (amarr) as a means of preventing too many kiting setups, not as a means of handicapping them Even with EIGHT low slots with tracking enhancers and EIGHT tracking comps AND a few extra ships with MORE tracking links won't allow turrets to hit every time a projectile reaches the enemy. That basically means that every turret based ships has a GAZILLION SLOT penalty compared to every missile ship out there, which, simply, is to much and unneeded because there is no real bonus to compensate. The turret boats should hit targets just as good as any missile boat. Btw, amarr aren't the slowest race in game (Ammarr has amongst others the second fastest BS, interceptor and in a few other classes as well). Perhaps try flying some different ship races before commenting on balance. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.09.12 18:51:00 - [40] Originally by: Damned Force And if the Caldari ships got a bit extra speed and a bit less mass they would be no nanoBS's either. The close range ships could catch them just not so fast. Euhm? Long range is 75 km+, let's be social and take 75 km with full level5 skills for each ship used: Megathron with a t2 100 mn mwd: 1213 m/s Raven with a t2 100 mn mwd: 708 m/s 1213-708=505 m/s diffrence total distance to cover is 75000 m. 75000/505=149 seconds. you think two and a half minute isn't enough? --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Praxis1452	Posted - 2007.09.12 19:16:00 - [41] Originally by: Shevar Originally by: Damned Force And if the Caldari ships got a bit extra speed and a bit less mass they would be no nanoBS's either. The close range ships could catch them just not so fast. Euhm? Long range is 75 km+, let's be social and take 75 km with full level5 skills for each ship used: Megathron with a t2 100 mn mwd: 1213 m/s Raven with a t2 100 mn mwd: 708 m/s 1213-708=505 m/s diffrence total distance to cover is 75000 m. 75000/505=149 seconds. you think two and a half minute isn't enough? A megathron is going to travel 75km to a target? really? If it even tries lets say it goes down to half armor. Warp out. The fact that disruptors and warp scrambs only work <24km max make close range the weapon of choice. Overall it benefits people who solo.
Magazaki	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:44:00 - [42] Edited by: Magazaki on 12/09/2007 22:45:46 Originally by: NoNah Originally by: Liang Nuren Oh - and there are great reasons why Armor should be heavier than shields. For instance, it makes no (physical) sense. ;-)Liang Why so? Where is the density of a shield generator stated? Where is the volume of a shield generator stated? So the partially hollow 1600mm plates of armour should weigh more ey? Shield Extender penalty: + Signature Radius Armor Plate penalty: + Mass Minmatar shield ships: OMGWTF speed. And I don't think they are making more efficient shield generators than Caldari. But were we not discussing balance and not pseudoscience? Originally by: James Lyrus Torpedos and cruise missiles used to hit everything for full damage. You used to be able to load cruise missiles on kestrels and blackbirds. ECMs used to be awesome. Dual MWD ravens used to be zomgzoomy. ERm. Missed anything? Mass got stomped down to fix imbalance. The underlying causes were fixed. No one cares enough to sort the mass. Exactly! Originally by: ShadowlordUK For reasons why caldari should remain the race with the slowest base speed, see Crow. No, that is the reason not to be faster by a big margin than the slowest. I don't think anyone says caldari should be the fastest, but being THAT slower is a needless slap in the face. Quote: People who say caldari are bad in pvp are simply shortsighted. Everybody likes to follow the crowd but very few actually think for themselves. If you take the raven for instance. Best all round tank vs gank of any bs... until the rokh came along, also caldari. You dont need mid slots for scrambling etc, because you simply dont do that in a bs. You dont care about time to dps because if your fleet is commanded by somebody who cant pick seperate targets for the components of his fleet to primary you should elect a new fc. If people warp out to avoid dmg, what the hell were your tacklers doing? and who cares anyway, they just left their mates to die and you collect the loot. There isnt a single good pvp reason not to use caldari. Just a lot bad reasons people regurgitate because they arent good enough to know better Well, yes, but not exactly. The problem is not that they cannot pvp. At least I do. The problem is that they start with a needless handicap (sometimes two). The first handicap is TOO low speed. Slowest? Yes, together with amarr gunships. Slow as a brick? No, no reason to be that cruel. That's all I'm saying at least. NOT make caldari the fastest, just make them fight for last place with the next slowest. The second is that their Gunships, EXCEPT the harpy and the rokh which are perfectly fine, lack a turret. (Moa, Ferox et.c.) They can fly, I use them, but a great deal of ships are needlessly "handicapped" compared to the competition.
Magazaki	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:52:00 - [43] Originally by: Shevar Originally by: Magazaki Q: But aren't the Caldari missile ships too heavy and slow even taking that into consideration? a: Yes they are, the Caldari missile boats, even taking their very good medium range damage, should be just about as fast as the Amarr ships, or FRACTIONALLY slower. Their unbelievably big mass is a great disadvantage, whose value is about one nano PLUS one overdrive, giving them effectively a TWO SLOT penalty compared to the rest of the world, which, simply, is too much and unneeded because there is no real bonus to compensate. They should be just as slow as/fractionally slower than the last (amarr) as a means of preventing too many kiting setups, not as a means of handicapping them Even with EIGHT low slots with tracking enhancers and EIGHT tracking comps AND a few extra ships with MORE tracking links won't allow turrets to hit every time a projectile reaches the enemy. That basically means that every turret based ships has a GAZILLION SLOT penalty compared to every missile ship out there, which, simply, is to much and unneeded because there is no real bonus to compensate. The turret boats should hit targets just as good as any missile boat. I really love your logic. You should teach me trollspeak some time. But just in case you belie that bull** you're spewing, let me remind you that it is actual DPS that matters and not how many shots land. I am comparing apples to apples (ships to ships, mass to mass, speed to speed). You're comparing oranges to home cinemas. Quote:** Btw, amarr aren't the slowest race in game (Ammarr has amongst others the second fastest BS, interceptor and in a few other classes as well). Perhaps try flying some different ship races before commenting on balance. Trollspeak continued? Or reading comprehension problems? OF COURSE amarr are not the slowest race on average. CALDARI are, troll! that's what this thread is all about! And by a big margin, too. Amarr are next to last after minmatar and Gallente. Or did you forget that we only have 4 races in the game?
arbalesttom	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:47:00 - [44] i did try to make a nanoraven/nanodrake/nanocaracal. It sucks. Too bad. Just start training Minimatar or Galente.
Andre Ricard Gallente Templars of Space	Posted - 2007.09.13 00:24:00 - [45] Edited by: Andre Ricard on 13/09/2007 00:25:08 Originally by: Shevar Originally by: Magazaki Q: But aren't the Caldari missile ships too heavy and slow even taking that into consideration? a: Yes they are, the Caldari missile boats, even taking their very good medium range damage, should be just about as fast as the Amarr ships, or FRACTIONALLY slower. Their unbelievably big mass is a great disadvantage, whose value is about one nano PLUS one overdrive, giving them effectively a TWO SLOT penalty compared to the rest of the world, which, simply, is too much and unneeded because there is no real bonus to compensate. They should be just as slow as/fractionally slower than the last (amarr) as a means of preventing too many kiting setups, not as a means of handicapping them Even with EIGHT low slots with tracking enhancers and EIGHT tracking comps AND a few extra ships with MORE tracking links won't allow turrets to hit every time a projectile reaches the enemy. That basically means that every turret based ships has a GAZILLION SLOT penalty compared to every missile ship out there, which, simply, is to much and unneeded because there is no real bonus to compensate. The turret boats should hit targets just as good as any missile boat. Btw, amarr aren't the slowest race in game (Ammarr has amongst others the second fastest BS, interceptor and in a few other classes as well). Perhaps try flying some different ship races before commenting on balance. that is so wrong. A once an ity breaks a certain speed, it is IMMUNE(meaning DPS so low, it doesn't break a FRIG'S natural shield recharge) to missile damage of any sized missile. Yet, with a bit of luck even a sieged dread (other than phoenix) can hit a 20km/s MWDing inty if it travels too straight for too long, there isn't a missile in the game that could hit it. 1010011010
Rafus Life Extermination	Posted - 2007.09.13 01:13:00 - [46] Originally by: Atius Tirawa game ballance. To make caldari ships super fast would make missle spammers too powerful. The good old days where my Caldari char was even more pwnage. Dual MWD raven FTW
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.13 01:49:00 - [47] The minute that missiles depend on the speed of the ship firing it is the minute that a balanced sitatution lets Caldari have their speed back. That is why you dont see a bunch of wtfpwn Gallente/Amarr speed ships, you have to slow down to do damage.
Chainsaw Plankton	Posted - 2007.09.13 01:52:00 - [48] Originally by: NoNah Of course, who would want 900 dps at 150km when you can do 500 with the abaddon! factoring in the 20-30 second flight time and the 2-3 volleys the rest of the rest of the fleet has fired off and ouch.... that is 0 dps and 0 alpha, its already gone pop.
Fager Xel'Naga Corp	Posted - 2007.09.13 02:19:00 - [49] Originally by: Goumindong The minute that missiles depend on the speed of the ship firing it is the minute that a balanced sitatution lets Caldari have their speed back. That is why you dont see a bunch of wtfpwn Gallente/Amarr speed ships, you have to slow down to do damage. The minute midrange combat is a good choice to battle in is the minute youll see Caldari pilots stop nagging about the slowness. And probably a few amarrians to to boot! And again, do you see any gallantean ships speedtanking today with no dmg modds on? Do you see any speedtanking gallantean droneships today using drones as dmg since they dont need tracking? Did you see any speedtanking NOS-droneboats when NOS wasnt nerfed? why? Gallantean ships cant speedtank, Give caldari same or lower Mass, same or better agility and they will still have lower amount of lowslots, and way lower base speed STILL MAKING them slower then Gallantean ships. They will NEVER speedtank with that kind of speed. They would need minmatar base speed, base mass and base agility to do that. and even then with low lowslots it would be hard. The reason Caldari was mass and agility nerfed? Multiple MWD Ravens Missile always hit for full damage oversized missiles loaded Thats why caldari ships once could speedtank and shoot missiles. And do the chivalry raven. Not becouse their low mass, "good" base speed or high agility. Caldari has the lowest base speed generally (pretty much same as Amarr base speed). By giving caldari back its Agility and Mass, youll be giving them the option to sacrifice Tank for speed (not speedtank, speed). The kind of speed Gallante use to get close, caldari could use to get away. Oh and blasters having short range and being kited argument, well to compensate they got loltastic dmg and most of them got Drones that surprisingly is a close to midrange system similar to missiles. Blastherboats needs under 13km to win, Missiles needs to stay outside to win. Once inside 13km there is no way out. Once outside 13km, the blasterboat will get close very fast. Once outside 24kms the blasterboat will warp the second hes not getting close enough. With balanced speed caldari with sacrificed tank and damage mods for speed could unless catched stay outside 13km web, and also have an option of fleeing the battlefield. (make no mistake with speed fit, there is close to no tanking and then even drone becomse dangerous). Sorry for the rant, but Caldari will never speedtank with their original mass and agility.... They will never go untouched spewing missiles like a Vagabond. Unless they bring back oversized MWD/AB or multple MWDs. Im not saying Caldari needs the un-nerf or not, but saying theyll speedtank shooting missiles with it is riddiculus. Anything that would lighten up the midcombat area vs the closecombat or the sniping area would be welcome imo. (like heavy scrammers or webbers, taking highslots or great fitting reqs perhaps? Reaches midcombat, perhaps midcombat only? 20-60km or something?) "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Grant Miller	Posted - 2007.09.13 03:24:00 - [50] Alright guys, lets be serious. We're not asking for the drake to have 250 m/s here. I think the majority of Caldari pilots would like to have just maybe 15-20 m/s more than we do currently. We don't want our ships to be ridiculous OMGWTF pwnmobiles. We just want a little bit of speed and maneuverability. Flying a caldari ship is like driving a double decker bus.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.13 07:00:00 - [51] Originally by: Fager load of bunk Gallente cant speed tank not becasue they are not fast enough, but because blasters and rails dont lend well to speed tanking. See blasters wont hit above web range, and and rails need to have very low transversal in order to do damage. But i would ask you a question: Have you ever fought an Ishtar?
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.13 07:05:00 - [52] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Fager load of bunk Gallente cant speed tank not becasue they are not fast enough, but because blasters and rails dont lend well to speed tanking. See blasters wont hit above web range, and and rails need to have very low transversal in order to do damage. But i would ask you a question: Have you ever fought an Ishtar? Blah, nothing to flame. He's right. The Myrmidon might be able to speed tank if I wanted... but you'll have better results up close and personal. Liang Yarr?
Adrian Steel Caldari Knowledge Capsuleers	Posted - 2007.09.13 07:55:00 - [53] Originally by: ShadowlordUK There isnt a single good pvp reason not to use caldari. Just a lot bad reasons people regurgitate because they arent good enough to know better Confirmed. Probably one of the more intelligent posts here. Click above image for site link.
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.13 08:08:00 - [54] They need to be heavy in order to carry all the Honour required to fly them.
Julius Romanus Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2007.09.13 08:14:00 - [55] It's because they pack in so much fun. Aparantly it's heavy.
Proxy 13 Minmatar H. C. I. Corp	Posted - 2007.09.13 16:48:00 - [56] May be Caldaris ships are made for PvE or PPPPPPPPPvP
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.13 18:56:00 - [57] Edited by: Gypsio III on 13/09/2007 18:56:16 Quote: That is why you dont see a bunch of wtfpwn Gallente/Amarr speed ships, you have to slow down to do damage. Drones and nanoIshtar say no. Sure you can destroy the drones though. Eventually. After spending 30 damped seconds trying to lock and kill a dozen heavy drones, whilst they're being scooped and redeployed...
Rotten Hag	Posted - 2007.09.13 19:30:00 - [58] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Fager load of bunk Gallente cant speed tank not becasue they are not fast enough, but because blasters and rails dont lend well to speed tanking. See blasters wont hit above web range, and and rails need to have very low transversal in order to do damage. But i would ask you a question: Have you ever fought an Ishtar? Have you? please show me your killboard stats goumindong i have searched everywhere and u aint been a goon long enough to tell whether u are completely full of **** or just half.
Dheorl	Posted - 2007.09.13 19:34:00 - [59] RP: Look at the generators. Game: Dunno.
Corphus Aliastra	Posted - 2007.09.13 19:44:00 - [60] Edited by: Corphus on 13/09/2007 19:44:56 simple. look at the crow. yes its one of the 2 lightest ceptors and can go insaneley fast due to its low mass. now look at its weapons. yes missles. they do full dmg at any speed the pilot goes. now show me which turret interceptor can deal full dmg from 24km range at 7000m/s orbiting speed with a target moving 2000m/s. alright and now tell me why the crow cost 17 mil while all other ceptors go for around 4 - 9 mil a piece. if u understood the power of non tracking dependant speed tanking ships with enourmous capacitor ull understand that making caldari ship lighter would gain em an advantage not easily compensatable by the other races strong sides in combat.
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2007.09.13 19:48:00 - [61] Cause: Caldari were hacked. Effect: Caldari are now obese (also Caldari suck at ECM now too ).
Markus Aurelian	Posted - 2007.09.13 19:55:00 - [62] Originally by: Sokratesz They need to be heavy in order to carry all the Honour required to fly them. they lack the lows required for sufficient honor tanking Meatwad FTW
Celeste Bane	Posted - 2007.09.13 21:33:00 - [63] Quote: If a ship can outrange all ships and still dictate range, they will win. Not saying caldari or amarr should be the way they are - just saying that a flat speedbonus(be it agility, mass or base velocity) to them WOULD make them the fotm solopwnmobile. I find this statement ridiculous. Many people don't seem to realise there ALREADY is a race that can dictate range(high speed), and outrange most ships. Minmatar. 1) They have the fastest ships in the game. 2) They can switch between ranged and close range ammo. Giving them the ability to outrange gallente and amarr and wear them down, or close in and outdps the caldari.
Talos Darkhart	Posted - 2007.09.13 21:35:00 - [64] Originally by: Corphus Edited by: Corphus on 13/09/2007 19:44:56 simple. look at the crow. yes its one of the 2 lightest ceptors and can go insaneley fast due to its low mass. now look at its weapons. yes missles. they do full dmg at any speed the pilot goes. now show me which turret interceptor can deal full dmg from 24km range at 7000m/s orbiting speed with a target moving 2000m/s. alright and now tell me why the crow cost 17 mil while all other ceptors go for around 4 - 9 mil a piece. if u understood the power of non tracking dependant speed tanking ships with enourmous capacitor ull understand that making caldari ship lighter would gain em an advantage not easily compensatable by the other races strong sides in combat. Intresting fact crow dmg is a little over 37dps with faction ken missles it's just really hard to kill. And tbh Caldari do need unnerfing as has been said they were nerfed because of 3 or 4 things that made them very overpowered that were all fixed years ago. Ironicly enough I picked Caldari because of the bit in the description that stated and I roughly quote "while not possesing the fastest ships caldari do have the most AGILE ships of the 4 powers" godamn it CCP I want my caldari ships to be competitive again
Magazaki	Posted - 2007.09.13 21:42:00 - [65] Originally by: Goumindong The minute that missiles depend on the speed of the ship firing it is the minute that a balanced sitatution lets Caldari have their speed back. Indeed you are as correct as possible. But I hope no-one asks for a speedtank. I hope. We would like better speed than today. Not the best, not the second, not even "fast" by any standard. Same speed as amarr or between amarr and gallente, or even just a weeee little bit slower/more massive as amarr would be ok. Flying space-bricks is not... Originally by: Corphus simple. look at the crow. yes its one of the 2 lightest ceptors and can go insaneley fast due to its low mass. now look at its weapons. yes missles. they do full dmg at any speed the pilot goes. now show me which turret interceptor can deal full dmg from 24km range at 7000m/s orbiting speed with a target moving 2000m/s. alright and now tell me why the crow cost 17 mil while all other ceptors go for around 4 - 9 mil a piece. if u understood the power of non tracking dependant speed tanking ships with enourmous capacitor ull understand that making caldari ship lighter would gain em an advantage not easily compensatable by the other races strong sides in combat. Same here. I don't think anyone is asking for the caldari to be fast, just not as slow as they are today. Add to all that the fact that caldari use gunships too.
Fager Xel'Naga Corp	Posted - 2007.09.14 00:48:00 - [66] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Fager load of bunk Gallente cant speed tank not becasue they are not fast enough, but because blasters and rails dont lend well to speed tanking. See blasters wont hit above web range, and and rails need to have very low transversal in order to do damage. But i would ask you a question: Have you ever fought an Ishtar? Just out of interest, take a deimos which is a blaster boat. give cerberus its mass and agility. Use mwd+inj+scram use all 4 lowslots for speed. count speed with cerberus base speed of today. compare its speed to a standard fit blasterdeimos. compare its speed to a Vagabond orbiting at a shootable speed. I would probably shut up big time if it shows that a cerberus could go at speed tanking speeds. (sadly i use mostely quickfit for basic view of performence, and most ppl would flame me for using quickfit to prove my point, but i know your good with the theory part, would be cool if you could pull out some numbers ;) ) Also note that my guess is its max speed will be somewhere around the speed vagabonds use to shoot at, which would mean that they would be fast and scary, but far far far from uncatchable. And take into account that like a Vagabond it will have close to 0 tank, but would NOT if my speedestimations are somewhat correct be able to speed up to uncatchable like vagabonds. And it is with the cerberus that the problems would occur at i believe if the speed was given back, as a fast raven would still only be a non-missile battery in the world of eve, that is to say no speedtanking in a BS alright, unless your ship is a thypoon. The only missile ship that would have speedtanking and dmg potential to be the best of its kind would be cerberus, since its not to big for speed, and not to small for to low DPS. Oh and crow would not be boosted back, as it was never nerfed and is one of the better interceptors of today, not out of its league. Oh and gallente droneboats could probably reach speedtanking speeds but most dont (cant proove it i know) .They have **loads more lowslots and better base speed thou, but for the sake of argument lets say caldari ships could match them. Why is this? 1: Bigger ships are easily catched by smaller ships, which makes tanking better then speeding generally 2: Minmatar class ships are faster, making you catchable by many smaller and same or even some bigger sized speeder ships, that to boot usually use speed as their typ eof tanking. number 1 and 2 leads to 3: Better of using tanking+damage then speed becouse their speed is not enough to get away or tank what minmatar ships can These points would hold true for faster caldari ships also. To speedtank you need to be fast enough to extreemly rarely get cought, Minmatar only have to fear their own shiptypes and smaller fast ships like interceptors. Gallente and caldari(with old mass and agility) would have to fear their own ship types, each others shiptypes and especially almost all minmatar shiptypes (most of them are speedfit). This is a big selling point for minmatar, and even thou with **loads of lows on gallente ships, good base speed and decent mass to get speedtanking they dont. The isthar you say, speedtank it and use drones since they dont need to track. With damps on it to your drones are really hard to take out to boot... pretty much like a speedtanked missilespewer huh? and i dont see any screams for lowered speed or higher mass of that ship. Perhaps its somewhat balanced? since even at those speed it is catchable and when catched its dead. Unlike a minmatar ship who pays with DPS to get uncatchable, which is a good trade of. The only time speedtanking missileships was a problem was during the double MWD era, and era when missiles did full dmg on hit also. They never had enough speed without 2x MWDs to be untouchable. (for the record, i havent fought any ishtars in PvP, atleast not that i remember - so yeah im pulling some assumptions here) "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Fager Xel'Naga Corp	Posted - 2007.09.14 01:02:00 - [67] Originally by: Fager (sadly i use mostely quickfit for basic view of performence, and most ppl would flame me for using quickfit to prove my point, but i know your good with the theory part, would be cool if you could pull out some numbers ;) ) I realized after re-reading my post that this sounded like a flame, just liked to clarify that it was not meant as a flame, i would truly like to see the numbers here. For all i know i could be terribly wrong in the speeds im guessing. So heres the sorry before someone starts to complain :) "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.14 02:08:00 - [68] Originally by: Magazaki Originally by: Goumindong The minute that missiles depend on the speed of the ship firing it is the minute that a balanced sitatution lets Caldari have their speed back. Indeed you are as correct as possible. But I hope no-one asks for a speedtank. I hope. We would like better speed than today. Not the best, not the second, not even "fast" by any standard. Same speed as amarr or between amarr and gallente, or even just a weeee little bit slower/more massive as amarr would be ok. Flying space-bricks is not... The problem is that Gallente and Amarr do not speed tank due to the nature of their weapons, not the nature of their hulls. Take a Nano-Zealot for instance, it requires 3 cap mods to be cap stable and does ~300 dps. It has literally no tank, not even an extender. Even with 5 turrets and a damage bonus instead of RoF bonus[cap use the same], the Zealot needs to make large sacrifices to be competetive due to cap use and tracking. The deimos, which is a little bit more agile and faster, not only has the cap use considerations, but also has the fact that it simply cannot get far enough outside of web range to be effective, even with neutron blasters and its falloff bonus, and isnt fast enough without the polycarbons. That or its using the lowest tier railguns for really bad tracking and operating in falloff. If you give Caldari that speed, they will do more damage[440 vs 325], with more tank[2xMSE], at greater range[40 vs 30km], with no tracking and oribtal problems, and much easier time becoming cap stable. This is just the way it is
Tassill Minmatar GREY COUNCIL Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.09.14 02:13:00 - [69] I am not convinced by the argument that lower mass caldari ships would be to uber. First of as many people have pointed out missiles do little to no damage vs's other fast ships so they would not be uber vs other fast ships. No bs's can realy be successfully nano'd these days (without insane amounts of isk and good base speed eg the machrial) so the only ship classes that will realy benifit from a mass reduction are hac's, dictors and maby bc/command ships. I dont think that the base speed of caldari ships need to be changed just the mass. They should be lighter than both amarr and galente.
Igualmentedos	Posted - 2007.09.14 03:33:00 - [70] And what about the advantages gallente has already?
Igualmentedos	Posted - 2007.09.14 03:35:00 - [71] Originally by: Talos Darkhart Originally by: Corphus Edited by: Corphus on 13/09/2007 19:44:56 simple. look at the crow. yes its one of the 2 lightest ceptors and can go insaneley fast due to its low mass. now look at its weapons. yes missles. they do full dmg at any speed the pilot goes. now show me which turret interceptor can deal full dmg from 24km range at 7000m/s orbiting speed with a target moving 2000m/s. alright and now tell me why the crow cost 17 mil while all other ceptors go for around 4 - 9 mil a piece. if u understood the power of non tracking dependant speed tanking ships with enourmous capacitor ull understand that making caldari ship lighter would gain em an advantage not easily compensatable by the other races strong sides in combat. Intresting fact crow dmg is a little over 37dps with faction ken missles it's just really hard to kill. And tbh Caldari do need unnerfing as has been said they were nerfed because of 3 or 4 things that made them very overpowered that were all fixed years ago. Ironicly enough I picked Caldari because of the bit in the description that stated and I roughly quote "while not possesing the fastest ships caldari do have the most AGILE ships of the 4 powers" godamn it CCP I want my caldari ships to be competitive again I would love for all caldari ships to be built just like the crow, weaker than most but fast as hell.
Fager Xel'Naga Corp	Posted - 2007.09.14 21:33:00 - [72] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Magazaki Originally by: Goumindong The minute that missiles depend on the speed of the ship firing it is the minute that a balanced sitatution lets Caldari have their speed back. Indeed you are as correct as possible. But I hope no-one asks for a speedtank. I hope. We would like better speed than today. Not the best, not the second, not even "fast" by any standard. Same speed as amarr or between amarr and gallente, or even just a weeee little bit slower/more massive as amarr would be ok. Flying space-bricks is not... The problem is that Gallente and Amarr do not speed tank due to the nature of their weapons, not the nature of their hulls. Take a Nano-Zealot for instance, it requires 3 cap mods to be cap stable and does ~300 dps. It has literally no tank, not even an extender. Even with 5 turrets and a damage bonus instead of RoF bonus[cap use the same], the Zealot needs to make large sacrifices to be competetive due to cap use and tracking. The deimos, which is a little bit more agile and faster, not only has the cap use considerations, but also has the fact that it simply cannot get far enough outside of web range to be effective, even with neutron blasters and its falloff bonus, and isnt fast enough without the polycarbons. That or its using the lowest tier railguns for really bad tracking and operating in falloff. If you give Caldari that speed, they will do more damage[440 vs 325], with more tank[2xMSE], at greater range[40 vs 30km], with no tracking and oribtal problems, and much easier time becoming cap stable. This is just the way it is You think a Cerberus with 4 lows, lesser base speed, slightly better mass and agility would be able to outspeed a full speed amarr/gallente HAC? Oh and above 24kms your target will warp away, id say the DPS inside 24km is slightly more even with zelot and cerberus. Use tackler you say? why do i need 440dps on a still standing tackled target when i can use something much more DPS effective? And i still say that even with gallente and amarr speeds from caldari they still wouldnt speedtank for same reasons (no not guns, gallente got drones that work effectively at max speeds). That is that they would still to easy to catch. Wich would put them in better positions with MWD+DPS+Tank instead of speed+lowtank. Kinda like droneboats better use tank + guns or EW then speed. I dont see Caldari fast missile ships being overpowered. dangerous yes, but we want our ship to be dangerous. To boot speeding back caldari ships would only give problems with cerberus, perhaps i dont know eagle (not ssure on that one). If there were to be problems at all. I dont agree with you that speedy caldari ships would be overpowered, not without minmatar speeds or 2x MWD. also remember that speeding = no passive tank, no dmg modds, no active tank, clsoe to no EWAR. This is becouse you got to few lowslots, youll need all to even remotly reach speedtanking. And mwd+inj+scram = 2 meds. One wich a web would probably be needed to get out from webs, but i guess with no tank webbed = dead. Caldari really lacks a up for its speeddisadvantage. Before it was good with missiles having always hit for full dmg, damage choice and such, but much of that has been taken away. Today missiles are abit of a weaker wpn system, but still has its pros. But the ships useing them are lacking something, nothing to big but yeah. This is becouse the missile ships are generally ah close combat ship these days. reasons for that is speed, closecombat area > midcombat area and lack of DPS/tackle(take your pick) against closecombat ships. MY point is with pre-nerf mass ang agility Caldari would be in the same sped area as gallente and amarr, Caldari speedsetups would be catchable by all other races speedy setups. It wouldnt be Minmatar with missiles. Heck i dont think Caldari top-speed would beat amarr+gallente top-speed with the lack of lowslots. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Lightof God Caldari Founder's of the Dominion The Dominion Empire	Posted - 2007.09.14 22:17:00 - [73] Moa is heavier then the cyclone, nuff said.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.14 22:24:00 - [74] Edited by: Goumindong on 14/09/2007 22:24:53 Originally by: Fager You think a Cerberus with 4 lows, lesser base speed, slightly better mass and agility would be able to outspeed a full speed amarr/gallente HAC? The figures i am using only allow 2 speed mods + 2 speed rigs on the amarr/gallente HACs due to the requirement to make their weapons anywhere near cap stable. Quote: Oh and above 24kms your target will warp away, id say the DPS inside 24km is slightly more even with zelot and cerberus. No, its not. Damage inside web range is much more even. Damage outside of web range the Cerb cleans up.
pandymen Caldari Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2007.09.14 22:34:00 - [75] Ok, I just read the first two pages, but could not bring myself to read the third. All I have to ask is why not make the caldari ships slightly faster/have more mass. As it is, the larger ships such as the raven/drake are hella slow. AB/MWD gives a much much lower bonus to speed, and caldari have a lower speed to begin with. However, I have no problem with ships trying to catch up to us... Before you read on, keep in mind that whenever caldari pilots "whine," ppl tell us how we are awesome at gang pvp, you just need someone to tackle. I now have to ask, why not make caldari a bit faster? Then other blaster boats will need a tackler to catch up more quickly....or a covops to warp to. Then all these blaster boats who are able to solo quite effectively might actually need to join a gang in order to catch up to a target quickly enough to insure its destruction. That's just my opinion. Seeing how caldari ships are slower, have less lowslots, and are heavier, something really needs to be done.
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2007.09.14 23:34:00 - [76] Hey come on guys, Caldari own when it's 2v1! WE ARNT UNDERPOWERED.
Tzt	Posted - 2007.09.15 00:08:00 - [77] Originally by: Lightof God Moa is heavier then the cyclone, nuff said. Moa = 13,000,000 Kg Cyclone = 12,500,000 Kg despite the Cyclone having over 3 times the armour, more than twice the shields, twice the sig radius, masses more cargo space and almost double the power grid and capacitor, it's 500,000 Kg lighter. that's just really odd.
Fager Xel'Naga Corp	Posted - 2007.09.15 00:21:00 - [78] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 14/09/2007 22:34:27 Edited by: Goumindong on 14/09/2007 22:30:14 Originally by: Fager You think a Cerberus with 4 lows, lesser base speed, slightly better mass and agility would be able to outspeed a full speed amarr/gallente HAC? The figures i am using only allow 2 speed mods + 2 speed rigs on the amarr/gallente HACs due to the requirement to make their weapons anywhere near cap stable. Quote: Oh and above 24kms your target will warp away, id say the DPS inside 24km is slightly more even with zelot and cerberus. No, its not. Damage inside web range is much more even. Damage outside of web range the Cerb cleans up. Nano'd up gallente/amarr ships are not easy to catch. ed; 2 prop mod, 2 rig zealot goes 3500m/s. With snakes its 5400m/s and with a claymore its 8500m/s ok i just downloaded the newest EFT. Ah speedtanked cerberus using 4x speedmoddsa nd 2x speedriggs mwd+inj. The cerberus will have to downgrade to tech 1 standard heavy launchers (barely fits with arbalest). The dps EFT shows me is with faction missiles is 165 DPS from first hit. Giving the Zelot 4 speedmodds and 2 rigs its speed will go to 4113 m/s. So if Cerberus has its mass and agi reduced to pre-nerf and with lower base speed, im assuming around same speed for it. Here is the kicker even with downgraded missiles, all lows to speed to get approx 4k m/s and mwd+inj ther eis no powergrid left for L extenders at all. Thats a 4km/s ship with no tank, 165 DPS and 2 slots left with no powergrid (EWAR basically) perhaps 2x damps or Web+SensBooster. Now please, is that overpowered? i mean anything that webs that thing for 5 seconds will win. Not to say it cant outrun missiles either. And it will have trouble outrunning or outtanking (if it chases a 3500m/s zelot its not gonna get alot of tranversal ya know). The 440 DPS Cerb you are talking about has 4 BCS and HAMs with Rage missiles. Lets see how fast that thing is, fitting a MWD on it kills all Extender possibilities and gives it almost 2000m/s with no injector. Do you see what i mean, well have really fast Cerberus possibilities, but they will be paper tin, and not THAT fast with measly downgraded damage. The Zelot going 3500m/s can make the tranversal dissapear against a 4k m/s cerb, and then hell hit hard and good. The zelot will also heavily out DPS the speedy Cerb, while still retaining great speed and 1x MAR +4 open lows (damage or resist) and using T2 guns. Zelot using T2 Pulse, inj+scram+MWD, overdrive x2, MAR II, Heat Sink x2, EANM x2 DPS: ultraviolet 20+5 optimal - 292 Conflag 11+5 optimal - 413 scorch 34+5 optimal - 325 3500m/s Cap last long enough with inj ALL ranges heavily outdps a speedcerberus, and to boot has a fine Tank and speeds that are really fast to escape, or make tranversal lesser against other speeders. Im talking pure theoretical here, but you where comparing a full DPS cerberus with speeds of a speed cerberus. I might hav emade mistakes here and there, if so please correct me. Also add to that guns hit bad at high speeds, but missiles hit bad on highspeed targets also, so that low DPS will be shiity low against speed targets, while speedtargets can kill tranversal and recieve a dmg bonus. Its not all well and dandy with missiles and speed. Picture: Setups in EFT OBS: all rigs are T1, no implants on any ships are used. Conclusion: Speedcerberuses will be fast, far from uncatchable, have 0 tank and sacrifices a sick amount of DPS to attain max speeds of around 4k m/s with T2 stuff. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
omiNATION	Posted - 2007.09.15 00:42:00 - [79] Solution: Lighten Caldari ships, bring them closer to other race average. Tie a ******* stone to the crow's leg.
Fager Xel'Naga Corp	Posted - 2007.09.15 00:53:00 - [80] Originally by: omiNATION Solution: Lighten Caldari ships, bring them closer to other race average. Tie a ******* stone to the crow's leg. The caldari interceptor classes was never nerfed as far as i know, dont quote me on this thou, couse im not to sure about that. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.15 01:11:00 - [81] Originally by: Fager sucks at fitting cerbs Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Medium Shield Extender II Medium Shield Extender II Small Capacitor Booster II Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II [empty high slot] Polycarbon Engine Housing I Polycarbon Engine Housing I 2800m/s, 440 dps. Cap stable Here is the same Zealot Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Medium Armor Repairer II Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Large Capacitor Battery II Heavy Pulse Laser II Heavy Pulse Laser II Heavy Pulse Laser II Heavy Pulse Laser II [empty high slot] Polycarbon Engine Housing I Polycarbon Engine Housing I Cap stable, 325 dps, 3500m/s You want the Cerb to go as fast as the Zealot, its ridiculous.
Reality dysfuntion	Posted - 2007.09.15 01:27:00 - [82] i would settle for increased AGI and lower mass.
Fager Xel'Naga Corp	Posted - 2007.09.15 01:43:00 - [83] Edited by:**er on 15/09/2007 01:43:58 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Fager sucks at fitting cerbs Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Medium Shield Extender II Medium Shield Extender II Small Capacitor Booster II Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II [empty high slot] Polycarbon Engine Housing I Polycarbon Engine Housing I 2800m/s, 440 dps. Cap stable Here is the same Zealot Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Medium Armor Repairer II Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Large Capacitor Battery II Heavy Pulse Laser II Heavy Pulse Laser II Heavy Pulse Laser II Heavy Pulse Laser II [empty high slot] Polycarbon Engine Housing I Polycarbon Engine Housing I Cap stable, 325 dps, 3500m/s You want the Cerb to go as fast as the Zealot, its ridiculous. I stand corrected on the cerberus, however 2x medium shield extenders is not what i call a tank but what ever. 0% EM resist also. Compare that tanking to the zelot i made (i dont see why you want capacitor power relays there. Get resists on instead, or damage/speed? it shouldnt have to run forever, your cerb wont.) i wouldnt call it so bad if cerberus would match it speed. Sacrificing Tank for more DPS. Shift those 2 power relays for 2 damage modds more, and youll have about same tank as that cerb, same speed if nerf was taken away, more dmg close, less far away. I do understand your reason for concern about the cerberus, however this is one ship. The whole caldari race nerfed for one ship that might be very good, and yes i still dont think it would be overpowered with same speed, less tank and more dps then a zelot. Also remember that we are comparing to a HAC that many ppl do consider to be in need of a 5th turret or a DPS boost also. I mean a Zelot fast cerberus with less tank and more dps might be better then the zelot. But compared to vagabonds, ishtars, deimoses and so on, i think it would fall in line quite good. A fast cerb with little defense good speed and offense would still have trouble against other fast ships, and faster ships would shred it with web. This would not be the case for a fast zelot with better tank and less dps. It would have the speed to run away, and be able to tank tacklers but at a cost of loosing DPS against targets standing still and you orbiting at full throttle. And speedtanking against larger targets with L Neuts is really dangerous, so it wouldnt be a BS pwn mobile either imo. outside scram and neut range the BS can warp off, and going 3500 m/s wont make you invincible with a very small tank. But i do stand corrected on the cerberus build, i did not believe that a small cap booster would be enough. The small booster would keep it up over 6 minutes, wich is long enough. Wich in turn gives you the powergrid for T2 HAMs even. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.15 02:01:00 - [84] Its survivable enough at that speed. Also, the CPRs are there because 154m^3 cargo hold. It holds a whopping 5 charges and is cap stable for a whole 1 minute!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.15 02:02:00 - [85] Edited by: Goumindong on 15/09/2007 02:03:19 Two MSEs is 73seconds of boosting from an MAR
Fager Xel'Naga Corp	Posted - 2007.09.15 02:23:00 - [86] Edited by:**er on 15/09/2007 02:25:17 using large battery MWD on MAR on you have 2m 31s before your out of cap. The standard out of the mill T2 Vagabond with 2x LSE can run there MWD for 2m 10s (i checked the threads and put em in with max skills, i dont fly them myself). You dont have to perma run your MAR. Meaning your 2m 31s will most likely be severly longer. You can run at "speedtanking speeds" right? Your resist are sky high compared to the 2x MSE cerberus. Doubt that equals 73s. MSE also increases your sig radius, making you easier to hit no mwd or mwd on. This is however a small point only, and could be ignored. add to the fact that if you have something small and faster on you, a MAR infinite tanking it would be better then 2x MSE. When you can infinite tank the MSE is not so good compared. Im not convinced a Caldari un-nerf would make cerberus overpowered. I do recognize that it could be maybe be very good, perhaps off the top compared to zelot.. perhaps. But no overpowered supermachine by far. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.15 04:26:00 - [87] Originally by: Fager ... You do have to perma run the MWD, because you are not fast enough, nor agile enough to bolt out of web range if someone closes. The vagabond is nearly twice as fast as the Zealot. Your resists are the same as the Cerb, neither has a resistance bonus.
AK Shaman	Posted - 2007.09.15 05:30:00 - [88] Yup lets make petition caldari ships weight must be same as minmatar ships weight , it be good idea for balance caldari in PvP. Ah and yes sensor dampers MUST work same as ECM jammers!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.15 06:35:00 - [89] Originally by: Fager Edited by:**er on 15/09/2007 02:38:43 Edited by:**er on 15/09/2007 02:37:44 Edited by:**er on 15/09/2007 02:25:17 Capacitor Booster MWD on MAR on you have 45s before your out of cap. (not running the booster) 1m 44s running MWD only (no booster) Turn the warp disruptor on.
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Worms Corp	Posted - 2007.09.15 08:14:00 - [90] well from the "Making Some **** Up" Department(same people who bring you the Deflector Dish in startrek), the shields have to offload the energy of a hit somewhere and that somewhere is heat. so the shield generators have massive heatsinks which are heavy. as for saying armor would weigh more, well that is debatable as atleast some of the armor selections are described as fancy technobabble alloys. and also remember when ya add armor plates i do believe that ship weight does go up.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.09.15 09:41:00 - [91] Originally by: Goumindong The minute that missiles depend on the speed of the ship firing it is the minute that a balanced sitatution lets Caldari have their speed back. That is why you dont see a bunch of wtfpwn Gallente/Amarr speed ships, you have to slow down to do damage. The Curse, Sacrilege, Huginn & Ishtar are alright though right? [Balance] The Caldari problem.
Fager Xel'Naga Corp	Posted - 2007.09.15 13:50:00 - [92] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Fager ... You do have to perma run the MWD, because you are not fast enough, nor agile enough to bolt out of web range if someone closes. The vagabond is nearly twice as fast as the Zealot. Your resists are the same as the Cerb, neither has a resistance bonus. You can run the MWD for over 1m 37s (with distrupt on all time) with no booster used. and with 2 resist modds you have heavy resist compared to cerb. You dont need 800s to be 100% cap safe, only if your perma runnin your MAR. oh and with a large cap battery + 1 power flux youll have several minutes (12m+ MWD) and alot better tank still then cerb. well over a minute permarunning MAR and MWD. And you say you have to permarun your MWD to not be in danger, while i believe that even at 3500m/s you are not out of danger by far. Its not that effective speed for speedtanking, as you said speedtanking vagas are twice as fast, making them almost uncatchable. However a Zelot can go at those speeds for well enough time and have the tank to setoff the lack of that extra speed it doesnt have. And the cerb has much more cargo but has to carry alot more missiles, so its not really that big of difference in booster capacity either. We can probably argue all day with fast Cerb vs Zelot, however the fast Cerb doesnt seem to be that big of a problem, it seems dangerous yes, but isthars/deimoses and most other HACs are dangerous to in there way. The cerb would pay alot of tank (probably all 2x MSE vs EWAR... dunno id prob choose damps or something instead) for its speed and damage. Not to say that the rest of the caldari fleet could use the speed back more severly then the Cerberus to. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Miss Franklin	Posted - 2007.09.17 03:17:00 - [93] I think they should nerf caldari's base speed a little bit more and give them improved agility and a loer mass. Then caldari ships will not be able to go to uber fast, but at least deacent speed and with good agility and mwd speed as is fitting for a shield tanked ship.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.17 03:25:00 - [94] Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Goumindong The minute that missiles depend on the speed of the ship firing it is the minute that a balanced sitatution lets Caldari have their speed back. That is why you dont see a bunch of wtfpwn Gallente/Amarr speed ships, you have to slow down to do damage. The Curse, Sacrilege, Huginn & Ishtar are alright though right? The curse recently got nerfed, and on it and the ishtar, you can kill the drones. The sacriledge would be O.K. if HAMs didnt get the last range boost[seriously, 15km was enough]because then its only able to operate within web range[albiet overloaded]. Whether or not it is now depends on how easily it can operate within a 3km range. Which is a fairly tight range to be honest. The Huginn would be faster than anything just with the webs really.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.17 03:29:00 - [95] Originally by: Fager ... I cant understand what you are trying to say. There is no way a cerb could carry enough missiles to not have enough room for the 150 cap charges. There is no room on the Zealot for resist mods and a repper when nanoing.
MasterDecoy Gallente The Grifters	Posted - 2007.09.17 07:53:00 - [96] Originally by: Hammerfall Ceo Because otherwise Caldari would be balanced. But Caldari must be underpowered in PVP. All the dev's like/are Minmatards. lol stfu and go run a mission Originally by: Evilempire1 good, im pentitioning you for slandering.
Fager Xel'Naga Corp	Posted - 2007.09.17 15:44:00 - [97] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Fager ... I cant understand what you are trying to say. There is no way a cerb could carry enough missiles to not have enough room for the 150 cap charges. There is no room on the Zealot for resist mods and a repper when nanoing. Im saying that IF the caldari mass+agi nerf was reveresed, it would not be as it was years ago when the nerf was applied. And while i agree that the cerberus might be right up there with the isthar/vagabond alley, it does not justifie that one ship will stop that nerf taken back. And if the cerberus really becomse to fast, meaning a decent cerberus speedfit, and is to hard to catch (remember I believe it will be just as hard to catch as a decent gallente/amarr speedfit is) then its not so hard to keep or only slightly take away its mass+agi. Im saying one ship of the entire fleet shouldnt stop giving caldaris mass+agi back. Im saying the cerberus wont be unbeatable with more speed like a vagabond. Im saying it wont be a vagabond with 5 missile points and 440 steady DPS. (couse if it is, then that ** will probably be comaprable to a double mwd raven and beyond) Im saying it will shape up in comparison to other HACs like Vagabond, isthar, deimos, sacri. Oh and i fit 2 resistmodds on the zelot by using some named ones, and before you go all crazy on that, it still gave **loads better resist then Cerb tank has. You can also try 1 resistmodd+1 cap modd and a large battery = nice resist and many minutes of MWD, (12m+) well over 1m insta repping+MWD. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.17 16:16:00 - [98] So, 1 rep, 2 resist, 1 cap, 2 speed, 1 damage? Congrats, now you do 271 dps. The big thing about missiles is that they dont have to worry about transversal. This is a hugely important point, because worrying about transversal is what keeps non-nano ships alive against nano'd ships.
Audri Fisher Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.09.17 17:48:00 - [99] Originally by: James Lyrus Torpedos and cruise missiles used to hit everything for full damage. You used to be able to load cruise missiles on kestrels and blackbirds. ECMs used to be awesome. Dual MWD ravens used to be zomgzoomy. ERm. Missed anything? Mass got stomped down to fix imbalance. The underlying causes were fixed. No one cares enough to sort the mass. exactly
Remejiah	Posted - 2007.09.18 00:51:00 - [100] I'm Caldari and wouldn't mind my ships going on a diet as well. Nothing super, just a 10-20% mass reduction across the board (except the crow ). From a role playing perspective, heavy Caldari ships make no sense at all. Their ships don't have much armor and rely on shields for protection. Take for example the Caracal. It's a typical Caldari ship: strong shields, weak armor, and weak structure. Yet it weighs more than than both of the Gallente battlecruisers! These are the heaviest battlecruisers in the game, by the way. How does it make ANY sense for a ship made of balsa wood to have more mass than a flying cow like the Brutix? Does anybody have any idea how we could convince the devs to make the change? Is there some way we can file an official petition or something?
Markus Aurelian	Posted - 2007.09.18 01:30:00 - [101] Originally by: Remejiah I'm Caldari and wouldn't mind my ships going on a diet as well. Nothing super, just a 10-20% mass reduction across the board (except the crow ). From a role playing perspective, heavy Caldari ships make no sense at all. Their ships don't have much armor and rely on shields for protection. Take for example the Caracal. It's a typical Caldari ship: strong shields, weak armor, and weak structure. Yet it weighs more than than both of the Gallente battlecruisers! These are the heaviest battlecruisers in the game, by the way. How does it make ANY sense for a ship made of balsa wood to have more mass than a flying cow like the Brutix? Does anybody have any idea how we could convince the devs to make the change? Is there some way we can file an official petition or something? you cant go just on RP, and even if you are, theres no RP that gives the weight of shield generators of the density and energy required to project shields. or how heavy those computers that spit out so many tf of cpu are. for all we know those could be immensely heavier than armor plates. on a related not, there is more reason to have ship stats based on balance rather than RP, its far more enjoyable for all (although the rp is somewhat misleading, theodicy and tachyon beams destroying planets is what made me pick amarr for my main...who knew that tachyons are next to impossible to fit/fire for longer than 2 minutes hehe) Meatwad FTW
Igualmentedos	Posted - 2007.09.18 01:36:00 - [102] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Goumindong The minute that missiles depend on the speed of the ship firing it is the minute that a balanced sitatution lets Caldari have their speed back. That is why you dont see a bunch of wtfpwn Gallente/Amarr speed ships, you have to slow down to do damage. The Curse, Sacrilege, Huginn & Ishtar are alright though right? The curse recently got nerfed, and on it *and the ishtar, you can kill the drones*. The sacriledge would be O.K. if HAMs didnt get the last range boost[seriously, 15km was enough]because then its only able to operate within web range[albiet overloaded]. Whether or not it is now depends on how easily it can operate within a 3km range. Which is a fairly tight range to be honest. The Huginn would be faster than anything just with the webs really. Honestly, the whole "you can kill my drones, therefore they're balanced" rebuttal is utterly pathetic. You can use defender missiles to stop me from attacking you, therefore a boost of missiles is in need. At least by your logic a boost is required. Same situation applies for TD's.
Igualmentedos	Posted - 2007.09.18 01:38:00 - [103] Edited by: Igualmentedos on 18/09/2007 01:40:46 Originally by: MasterDecoy Originally by: Hammerfall Ceo Because otherwise Caldari would be balanced. But Caldari must be underpowered in PVP. All the dev's like/are Minmatards. lol stfu and go run a mission lol stfu and go be invincible as gallente Damn! Did you see that!? I can do that TOO.
Igualmentedos	Posted - 2007.09.18 01:40:00 - [104] Originally by: Markus Aurelian Originally by: Remejiah I'm Caldari and wouldn't mind my ships going on a diet as well. Nothing super, just a 10-20% mass reduction across the board (except the crow ). From a role playing perspective, heavy Caldari ships make no sense at all. Their ships don't have much armor and rely on shields for protection. Take for example the Caracal. It's a typical Caldari ship: strong shields, weak armor, and weak structure. Yet it weighs more than than both of the Gallente battlecruisers! These are the heaviest battlecruisers in the game, by the way. How does it make ANY sense for a ship made of balsa wood to have more mass than a flying cow like the Brutix? Does anybody have any idea how we could convince the devs to make the change? Is there some way we can file an official petition or something? you cant go just on RP, and even if you are, theres no RP that gives the weight of shield generators of the density and energy required to project shields. or how heavy those computers that spit out so many tf of cpu are. for all we know those could be immensely heavier than armor plates. on a related not, there is more reason to have ship stats based on balance rather than RP, its far more enjoyable for all (although the rp is somewhat misleading, theodicy and tachyon beams destroying planets is what made me pick amarr for my main...who knew that tachyons are next to impossible to fit/fire for longer than 2 minutes hehe) ....every ship has a shield, therefore, every ship has the same crap as a caldari ship (in regards to shields).
Stuart Price Caldari Havoc Inc	Posted - 2007.09.18 01:52:00 - [105] My input to this, as someone who'd done his share of pvp and specialises heavily in Caldari ships. Most pvp (not massive fleets obviously) takes place at short range. If the target isn't scrammed, he can just leave if you're unable to kill him before he warps. This reduces the importance of range. The only time range is useful is if you can get a tackler on your target and then outrange him with your own weapons. This advantage is reduced somewhat when you consider that your target will more than likely be able to attack the tackler. If he pops, the target leaves and your range advantage means nothing again. You could always damp him to hell but damps are something best discussed elsewhere and he can always do it to you. Range is however, important beyond most other considerations against NPC's. Which is where, I suspect, this problem really lies. Being able to alpha volley frigs at 100km+ in a Rokh is useful. Being able to just lock and spam missiles at all ranges is beyond useful. It's a brave man who tries to mission run in a blastership. Caldari ships having similar mass/speed to Gallente ships does NOT mean they'll suddenly be automatically better than them. For a start, since gallente on the whole have superior cap to caldari, they would still make superior blasterships. Caldari ships CAN make fine blasterboats (Rokh with Null is enjoyable) but their use is FAR more limited than their Gallente counterparts. Yes, missile ships WOULD become much more powerful if they could go faster. Witness the almost daily whinefest about the Crow. In my opinion, missiles need another overhaul but again that's not the focus of this thread so I'll simply say that make it so that the gunboats get more of a buff than the missile ships. As it stands, the Caldari gunboats (with the honourable exception of the Rokh and the Harpy which are fine examples of ship design in my book!) are a joke in pvp. When was the last time you were afraid of facing a Merlin, Moa, Ferox or Eagle in an equivalent ship class? I'd love these ships to become more useful in pvp since I have FAR more skills in gunnery than in missiles but the inability to move very fast couple with the abject uselessness of railguns at close range (except the Harpy which is surprisingly accurate) means caldari gunships either get murdered at close range if railgun fitted or kited to death if blaster fitted. The lack of decent drone bays exacerbates the problem as drones are a useful way of covering weakness at a given range. The Eagle, for example, is decent against small ships at range. Anything around 40km or more away from it is going to take hits. Now this is useless unless it can pop them before they run, which given it's firepower is unlikely. If a fast enemy ship gets close, the Eagle cannot track them and has to rely purely on 2 launchers. Most interceptors and certainly anything bigger will generally laugh at 2 launchers. This would be an ideal situation for a swarm of light drones but the Eagle has no drone bay so it just dies. All these factors combine to give the Eagle, a HAC, an exremely narrow role. If it fits blasters it can do well (although nowhere near as well as a dedicated close range HAC such as the Deimos or Zealot), unless the enemy KNOWS you have blasters at which point it just gets kited to death. The pattern mostly repeats itself for the other gunboats. Being able to move faster would not overcome these issues (otherwise it would be overpowering) but would go some way to alleviating them. The only real way I could justify missile ships being able to go at ludicrous speeds would involve a major redesign of how a lot of systems work and probably a complete redesign of most of the caldari fleet. Either changing how missiles work again OR making all Caldari ships gunboats with missiles as a support weapon. This would annoy a lot of people and detract somewhat from the flavour of the Caldari fleet. ps boost Caldari E-war please! "I got soul but I'm not a soldier"
Kamen SRBI Circle 0f Two	Posted - 2007.09.18 02:59:00 - [106] Originally by: Goumindong ...There is no way a cerb could carry enough missiles to not have enough room for the 150 cap charges. And you would be charging WHAT with those charges without PG due to nano fit taking the lows to fit anything else once you slap the injector and mwd? You intend to charge the MWD for longer than an hour??? Pfft ------------------------------------------------ (Recruiting ad) SRBI regrutuju! Dodjite na nas javni SRBI kanal.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.18 03:41:00 - [107] Originally by: Igualmentedos Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Goumindong The minute that missiles depend on the speed of the ship firing it is the minute that a balanced sitatution lets Caldari have their speed back. That is why you dont see a bunch of wtfpwn Gallente/Amarr speed ships, you have to slow down to do damage. The Curse, Sacrilege, Huginn & Ishtar are alright though right? The curse recently got nerfed, and on it *and the ishtar, you can kill the drones*. The sacriledge would be O.K. if HAMs didnt get the last range boost[seriously, 15km was enough]because then its only able to operate within web range[albiet overloaded]. Whether or not it is now depends on how easily it can operate within a 3km range. Which is a fairly tight range to be honest. The Huginn would be faster than anything just with the webs really. Honestly, the whole "you can kill my drones, therefore they're balanced" rebuttal is utterly pathetic. You can use defender missiles to stop me from attacking you, therefore a boost of missiles is in need. At least by your logic a boost is required. Same situation applies for TD's. No, its legitimate when applied to nano ships. If an IShtar attacks me i beat it by locking up its drones since it cannot scoop them from 20km out.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.18 03:41:00 - [108] Originally by: Kamen Originally by: Goumindong ...There is no way a cerb could carry enough missiles to not have enough room for the 150 cap charges. And you would be charging WHAT with those charges without PG due to nano fit taking the lows to fit anything else once you slap the injector and mwd? You intend to charge the MWD for longer than an hour??? Pfft A small injector fits just fine and is all that is needed to make the ship cap stable.
Vicebane Caldari Extreme Intentions Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.18 12:15:00 - [109] There have been 4 pages of failures to call out the specific issue of dueling scenarios versus gang and fleet scenarios. Even in PvP in other games the devs have outright said that some classes are better for dueling than others. That does not make them at all superior for group roles however. Put a raven behind or with a mix of gallente ships and suddenly you've got a problem if your on the wrong side of it.
Fager Xel'Naga Corp	Posted - 2007.09.18 15:25:00 - [110] Originally by: Goumindong So, 1 rep, 2 resist, 1 cap, 2 speed, 1 damage? Congrats, now you do 271 dps. The big thing about missiles is that they dont have to worry about transversal. This is a hugely important point, because worrying about transversal is what keeps non-nano ships alive against nano'd ships. re read my post. 1rep, 1resist, 1cap, 2 speed, 2 damage 1rep, 2resist(named), 0 cap, 2 speed, 2 damage Again i stress the point where Zelot is also a ship that has many votes for a DPS increse. Again cerberus is one ship that might be problamatic, its not a big argument against taking away that nerf. Again if cerberus is to fast with original speed(did the ship exist when the nerf came btw?) its not so hard to give it a lesser ..de-nerf. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Fager Xel'Naga Corp	Posted - 2007.09.18 15:27:00 - [111] Originally by: Vicebane There have been 4 pages of failures to call out the specific issue of dueling scenarios versus gang and fleet scenarios. Even in PvP in other games the devs have outright said that some classes are better for dueling than others. That does not make them at all superior for group roles however. Put a raven behind or with a mix of gallente ships and suddenly you've got a problem if your on the wrong side of it. The raven doesnt do anything special in gang, unless you dampening/armortanking/providing light dps. The raven is however imo a fine ship, and even with a mass+agi de-nerf. IT would never be able to use its speeds to tank.. "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"

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