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Why are t2 bpos still in the game?

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Bongolus Gallente Black Sheep Enterprises Spear 0f Destiny	Posted - 2007.09.20 00:13:00 - [1] Hi, i just found this threat: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=594761 1.) Occator BPO ME10 PE5 current bid 15 b 2.) Magnetic Field Stabilizer 2 BPO ME1 PE7 current bid 17 b How can one make so many money that he can spend 15 or 17 billion for a single bpo, without owning at least one t2 bpo himself? If u now think this bids come from some big 0.0 corps you are wrong. Both bidders are in corps with less than 10 members. Where is the fairness for all the peeps that haven't had the luck to win in the fu**ing lottery and are now stuck with overpriced and unworthwile inventions? In my opinion there are only 2 ways to make the t2 market fair again, either make npcs sell t2 bpo or take 'em complete out of the game. I don't read this forum often and i can imagine this topic would have been discused in some more threats. It's just something that is on my mind and i can imagine there are a lot more peeps out there who share my opinion. Greetz Bongolus -------------------------------------------------- Rule the hell or serve in heaven!
sableye principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.20 00:14:00 - [2] making isk is easy in eve I have like billions and I have'nt really earned anythingin years. Join The Fight With Promo Today
Macdeth Ephemeral Misgivings	Posted - 2007.09.20 00:16:00 - [3] Use your imagination a little more in looking for opportunities, perhaps. I cleared 100b long before I had anything T2-related, and that was a couple years of 'it is way easier to make isk as time goes by' ago.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.09.20 00:32:00 - [4] The OP is deluding himself if he thinks that all 0.0 alliances do their t2 business using characters that are in their alliance. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2007.09.20 00:35:00 - [5] why are you allowed to post on the forums? "If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor." -Albert Einstein A blog of truth (not mine)
Bongolus Gallente Black Sheep Enterprises Spear 0f Destiny	Posted - 2007.09.20 01:19:00 - [6] Originally by: Celeste Coeval why are you allowed to post on the forums? Who allowed you to make silly postings? At least i've explained my question, your post is just crap ... -------------------------------------------------- Rule the hell or serve in heaven!
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.09.20 01:55:00 - [7] Some of those bidders are reps of large, rich corps, backed by such resources as a large, rich corp can provide. There are perfectly legitimate reason to not be seen bidding 17B on a T2 BPO. -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth
Jamie 315 Yet Another CAOD Inspired 1 Woman Alt Corp	Posted - 2007.09.20 02:21:00 - [8] Originally by: Bongolus Originally by: Celeste Coeval why are you allowed to post on the forums? Who allowed you to make silly postings? At least i've explained my question, your post is just crap ... Funny thing is your the one that is posting crap. The people with the bpos won them in a lottery that was closed so everyone could get a fair chance (btw your from 05, which means you have had a while to try and win the lottery, did you even try?). If you release t2 bpos on the market it will destroy invention (oops cause and effect). Which will hurt so many people that your small mind can not even begin to understand. T2 bpos used to equal lots and lots of isky in production (3b to 4b a week with a hulk bpo profit). Now they still make some nice profits but nothing compared to what they used to make. Those BPOs are only worth isk to 0.0 alliances (like the ones bidding on it). They don't want to flip the bill for invention and have it possibly fail. They want to be able to click build on any BPO and have it be done asap. Thats why the bpo of a t2 item is worth allot. Now if you look at the profit margin of the bpo you will see yes its a nice profit, but not end of the world. Life ain't fair so why should eve be fair? Should every alliance hold equal space and lose equal amounts of isk in fights and have equal memebers with equal numbers with equal skills with equal standings to caldari state? NO. If you can not figure out how to make isk well tough luck, don't try and get someone to tell you how to. You failed at invention and you want to take it out on the bpo holders? Bitterness I geuss. What did you try to invent anyway? Recruiting is open
prathe Minmatar Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.09.20 06:18:00 - [9] actually the op makes some very good points and its true but really we should'nt just nerf tech 2 bpos we should turn all t-1 bpo's into copies as well because it's unfair to newbies who have to buy copies from bpo owners to produce ships in fact people who can afford tech 2 ships should also be nerfed because it unfair so all tech 2 items should be nerfed to t-1 items and while were at it just because somebody has more sp than me shouldn't mean they can fly better ships then me i want to be able to fly all ships in eve including titan so all ships should be 1 isk and have no skill reqs . pls ccp dont make me work for anything just hand it to me and take everything anybody ever worked for away from them to make me happy ...... there that should cover it ....
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.20 06:34:00 - [10] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 20/09/2007 06:34:02 If you are surprised by the tone of the replyes, this are the reasons: - the topic has bee talked to death more than once (yesterday there was a 3 pages thread in the first page of this forum) and opening another thread instead of using the browser and searching for one of the previous thread is lazy; - your tone imply that what really fuel you is the green eyed monster, envy (how some player ose to have 15 billions); - your solution don't resolve anything.
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.09.20 06:54:00 - [11] T2 BPOs provide a low production cost base supply for T2 items. Those in combination with the higher production cost invention items provide you with the low cost T2 market of the day... Take away the base supply, and the prices will skyrocket like never before... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
MattSB Domination. League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.09.20 08:23:00 - [12] Originally by: Laboratus T2 BPOs provide a low production cost base supply for T2 items. Those in combination with the higher production cost invention items provide you with the low cost T2 market of the day... Take away the base supply, and the prices will skyrocket like never before... DING we have a winner Basically invention is wicked i use it myself to make ze iskies, but it is only good on modules that cost a certain amount or more due to the added costs of inventing and the need to be able to absorb a string of failures. This means invention is useless on t2 modules that cost next to nothing, such as say the t2 mining crystals or i dunno t2 small smartbombs :P Invention is a means to control the prices of T2 so they don't become stupidly inflated and not a way to produce all T2 in game ...
Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.20 08:30:00 - [13] Because you touch yourself at night Changes to Local,War ,Navigation Shortcuts
Anson Halleck Lost Eden	Posted - 2007.09.20 08:34:00 - [14] Edited by: Anson Halleck on 20/09/2007 08:34:19 Originally by: Bongolus How can one make so many money that he can spend 15 or 17 billion for a single bpo, without owning at least one t2 bpo himself? If u now think this bids come from some big 0.0 corps you are wrong. Both bidders are in corps with less than 10 members. Where is the fairness for all the peeps that haven't had the luck to win in the fu**ing lottery and are now stuck with overpriced and unworthwile inventions? I never won T2 lottery and I still managed to earn enough ISK to buy T2 BPOs. How? Instead of whinning on forums, I worked in game to make my ISK. Therefore I don't really appreciate your request to remove T2 BPOs just becouse you are lazy and jealous, it took me quite a long time to get them.
Fester Addams Minmatar	Posted - 2007.09.20 08:48:00 - [15] The way T2 BPO's were introduced was a mistake. I doubt anyone playing EvE disagrees with that. What about the people who got BPO's you say. Yes we think it was a mistake how they were introduced too. The problem with the introduction method was that it was a completely random distribution method that required very little if any real effort. That said it is at the moment very hard for CCP to simply remove the BPO's. From the moment they were introduced they were a resource and from the moment they were introduced they were like you said bought and sold. Now that many many BPO's have changed hands for extremely high prices it is hard for CCP to simply say that they will remove them. The only comparable item that has been in the game is the old infinite BPC's that were produced and sold early in the games history. People bought infinite BPC's to BS's and such at very high prices as they were infinite, when they decided it was a bad idea to allow infinite copies thousands were already in circulation and represented a factual value. Despite the whole comunity knowing that the copies were to be removed CCP still waited over 2 years before actually turning them into very VERY high run BPC. Thus in short... I fully expect my and others T2 BPO "monopoly" to be removed at some point in the future however I also expect that future to be far away. My guess is around the time of T3 introduction, especially if T3 requires T2 to manufacture.
Nyack GREY COUNCIL Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.09.20 09:05:00 - [16] only way to actually remove t2 bpos woudl be to make em into high run bpc worth 1-2years production of said item. easy multiply the build time of an item to cover 1-2years as most bpos are valued after that on auctions..i guess that will be done as soon as invetion is stabilized and balanced even further. sure that solution would take 1-2 years but then those bpo:s would out of the game.. but as someone said removing them would destabilize the market alot when u remove base production.. but i guess this is why they hired that economist..
Bongolus Gallente Black Sheep Enterprises Spear 0f Destiny	Posted - 2007.09.20 09:43:00 - [17] Originally by: Jamie 315 (btw your from 05, which means you have had a while to try and win the lottery, did you even try?) Currently i'm running 5 Agents with something around 200k of r&d points. Originally by: Jamie 315 If you release t2 bpos on the market it will destroy invention. Which will hurt so many people that your small mind can not even begin to understand. I don't release t2 bpos on the market. Why should it hurt people? Because they can't buy a bpo? All they will lose is the money they spend in the invention items but as most of the people in this threat say it's no problem to make money in eve. So where is the problem? Originally by: Jamie 315 Life ain't fair so why should eve be fair? Should every alliance hold equal space and lose equal amounts of isk in fights and have equal memebers with equal numbers with equal skills with equal standings to caldari state? NO. That's just plain stupid and no base for a discussion. Originally by: Anson Halleck I never won T2 lottery and I still managed to earn enough ISK to buy T2 BPOs. How? Instead of whinning on forums, I worked in game to make my ISK. Razz Therefore I don't really appreciate your request to remove T2 BPOs just becouse you are lazy and jealous, it took me quite a long time to get them. If i had spend my days in an overcrowded empire, trading or running missions, i'll surley would own 1 or 2 t2 bpos myself. But that's not my way to play this game. The point is, nearly all parts of the game force players to work as a team. T2 bpos give single players the possibilities to grow rich without teamwork which doesn't make sense. You say i'm jealous, i'll say t2 bpo owners are selfish. Originally by: Venkul Mul - the topic has bee talked to death more than once (yesterday there was a 3 pages thread in the first page of this forum) and opening another thread instead of using the browser and searching for one of the previous thread is lazy; Lazy as i am: Originally by: Bongolus I don't read this forum often and i can imagine this topic would have been discused in some more threats. It's just something that is on my mind and i can imagine there are a lot more peeps out there who share my opinion. -------------------------------------------------- Rule the hell or serve in heaven!
El'Niaga Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.09.20 09:45:00 - [18] They should have removed them already in my honest opinion. There is simply no reason to allow them to remain at this point. Invention is to the point that it could easily take up the slack now. All allowing them has done is to allow those t2 holders to make more profit than what is allowed through invention. Invention requires more effort, and therefore should have a greater reward. Hopefully they will remove them all in Revelations III, it is long overdue.
Kirjava Lothian Quay Industries Zzz	Posted - 2007.09.20 10:07:00 - [19] Personaly I beleive that all T2 BPO should be converted to high run BPC and invention changed to invent very very low ME/PE BPO... It makes sense dosen't it? People actualy work more for getting a low run T2 bpc than running a few hundred missions (if that) and getting a T2 BPO in a lottery later on. I know people would scream about how much their spanking new T2 BPO cost them but adapt or die Originally by: CCP Morpheus Post with your alt.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.09.20 10:07:00 - [20] Originally by: Laboratus T2 BPOs provide a low production cost base supply for T2 items. Those in combination with the higher production cost invention items provide you with the low cost T2 market of the day... Take away the base supply, and the prices will skyrocket like never before... Winner. That's what you'll see for T2 goods that don't have a BPO. That's where the inventors have a real chance of decent profit... ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Brisi Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.09.20 10:11:00 - [21] Edited by: Brisi on 20/09/2007 10:12:07 Originally by: Laboratus T2 BPOs provide a low production cost base supply for T2 items. Those in combination with the higher production cost invention items provide you with the low cost T2 market of the day... Take away the base supply, and the prices will skyrocket like never before... Quoted for emphasis. Please read this carefully. And btw, I did research myself and never got a BPO either. The lottery was a joke and invention was the way to fix it, and fixed it has been. So you want the BPO's to disappear out of pure envy? Oh buhu, grow up please. People worked their asses off to buy those bpo's, and now they've paid billions for them, should they just let them go because you're ****y about not getting one? If you think that the people with the BPO's now are the people who won them in the lottery, you're mistaken. Some people might have kept theirs, but the vast majority of tech II bpo's have switched hands at least once. I've never won the 55 million dollar jackpot in real life either, but I am really envious of the people who have, so lets remove their prices to make me feel better?
Buyerr	Posted - 2007.09.20 10:17:00 - [22] Originally by: MattSB Originally by: Laboratus T2 BPOs provide a low production cost base supply for T2 items. Those in combination with the higher production cost invention items provide you with the low cost T2 market of the day... Take away the base supply, and the prices will skyrocket like never before... DING we have a winner Basically invention is wicked i use it myself to make ze iskies, but it is only good on modules that cost a certain amount or more due to the added costs of inventing and the need to be able to absorb a string of failures. This means invention is useless on t2 modules that cost next to nothing, such as say the t2 mining crystals or i dunno t2 small smartbombs :P Invention is a means to control the prices of T2 so they don't become stupidly inflated and not a way to produce all T2 in game ... emm.. NO make invention alot easyer to do instead. bpo t2 should be removed from the game since they are more then lamely unbalanced.
Amy Wang	Posted - 2007.09.20 10:20:00 - [23] Originally by: El'Niaga Invention requires more effort, and therefore should have a greater reward. It already has a much bigger reward compared to the initial investment. If you buy a t2 BPO it takes 9-12 months on average to break even on the investment, invention can start to net a profit in 1 day already.
Rashmika Clavain Gallente Revelation Space	Posted - 2007.09.20 10:26:00 - [24] If the T2 BPO's are to remain in the game, then I think the invention success rate or the dice roll calculations need to be tweaked slightly. I also think that the BPC ME/PE levels used should affect the output. While I agree invention is there to help control tech2 prices, to leave the tech2 BPO's in game creates a massive inequity. It's a **** sandwich, and someone somewhere is going to have to take a bite at some point. I am very interested as to how CCP will approach this, although I suspect they haven't worked that one out either
Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2007.09.20 10:28:00 - [25] Leave the T2 BPOs as they are, soon enough there will be T3 for you to whine about.
El'Niaga Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.09.20 10:28:00 - [26] Originally by: Amy Wang Originally by: El'Niaga Invention requires more effort, and therefore should have a greater reward. It already has a much bigger reward compared to the initial investment. If you buy a t2 BPO it takes 9-12 months on average to break even on the investment, invention can start to net a profit in 1 day already. Depends, some things are just not viable to invent because the t2 bpo holders have just lowered their prices on some items to the point there is no way to recover your loss. Also it is practically impossible to recover the cost of invention on day 1. You have to recover the cost of the data interface, datacores, extra time to train special skills to invent, cost of extra skills, base item (if you use one) and decryptor (if you use one). You then also have to figure in the loss of failed invention into the equation. Thus on many t2 items it is not really possible currently to make a profit through invention. This isn't to say you can't and on some items you can make a decent profit. However on many items, you cannot currently make a profit using invention.
El'Niaga Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.09.20 10:30:00 - [27] Originally by: Rashmika Clavain If the T2 BPO's are to remain in the game, then I think the invention success rate or the dice roll calculations need to be tweaked slightly. I also think that the BPC ME/PE levels used should affect the output. While I agree invention is there to help control tech2 prices, to leave the tech2 BPO's in game creates a massive inequity. It's a **** sandwich, and someone somewhere is going to have to take a bite at some point. I am very interested as to how CCP will approach this, although I suspect they haven't worked that one out either I can agree with this sentiment
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.09.20 10:44:00 - [28] Err.. Remember gentlemen, that Tech 3 is coming at some point... If producing those items is anything like the progression in cloaks (T1, T2, cov ops) you will need T2 items to produce those. Now, if the base production of T2 items (BPOs) is removed, the work for producing a single T3 item is redicilous You have to understand that the number of T2 BPOs released through the lottery was designed to a much smaller playerbase, than what we have today. At this time they produce a good base level of supply of low cost T2 items, but they cannot keep up to demand just by them selves. That is where the supply created by invention comes into the picture. When T3 comes implemented through invention, the need for T2 items for the invention of T3 items, the demand for T2 items will skyrocket (since the success rate of invention is not too high...). Now the base level of supply from the T2 BPO builders is inflexible, they cannot increase their production amounts at all. This means the new demand can only be handled by the invention producers, and it will increase the profits they get from their items... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.20 10:44:00 - [29] Originally by: Bongolus Originally by: Venkul Mul - the topic has bee talked to death more than once (yesterday there was a 3 pages thread in the first page of this forum) and opening another thread instead of using the browser and searching for one of the previous thread is lazy; Lazy as i am: Originally by: Bongolus I don't read this forum often and i can imagine this topic would have been discused in some more threats. It's just something that is on my mind and i can imagine there are a lot more peeps out there who share my opinion. Lazy as: you don't have even bothered to look the same page where you have posted. The thread I am referring to is still in the first page of the general discussion forum where you have posted. Originally by: El'Niaga They should have removed them already in my honest opinion. There is simply no reason to allow them to remain at this point. Invention is to the point that it could easily take up the slack now. All allowing them has done is to allow those t2 holders to make more profit than what is allowed through invention. Invention requires more effort, and therefore should have a greater reward. Hopefully they will remove them all in Revelations III, it is long overdue. I think that someone that has got a T2 BPO from the lottery in may 2007, paying the equivalent of huindred or thousand of datacores in RP, then training the relevant skills to produce it for some months (months where he could not copy or research the BPO, as the skill for doing that are even higher), will swear mightly if the BPO was removed in november 2007.
Cornucopian Gallente Orias Fringe Enterprises United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.20 10:48:00 - [30] Originally by: Bongolus Hi, i just found this threat: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=594761 1.) Occator BPO ME10 PE5 current bid 15 b 2.) Magnetic Field Stabilizer 2 BPO ME1 PE7 current bid 17 b How can one make so many money that he can spend 15 or 17 billion for a single bpo, without owning at least one t2 bpo himself? If u now think this bids come from some big 0.0 corps you are wrong. Both bidders are in corps with less than 10 members. Where is the fairness for all the peeps that haven't had the luck to win in the fuing lottery and are now stuck with overpriced and unworthwile inventions? In my opinion there are only 2 ways to make the t2 market fair again, either make npcs sell t2 bpo or take 'em complete out of the game. I don't read this forum often and i can imagine this topic would have been discused in some more threats. It's just something that is on my mind and i can imagine there are a lot more peeps out there who share my opinion. Greetz Bongolus why would CCP remove bobs moneyprinting machine, when they gave it to them in the first place? (runs for the tinfoil hills) ----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer." Originally by:** Royaldo complete win by Cornucopian!
RaTTuS BIG Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.09.20 11:12:00 - [31] Edited by: RaTTuS on 20/09/2007 11:12:56 Damn forums ate my post -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve & RaTTuS Home
Gorthauran Amarr Throne of Tragedy	Posted - 2007.09.20 11:31:00 - [32] Personally i think Invention was released too soon. CCP should have waited until the game needed another tech lvl. Thus making T2 BPO's available on the NPC market and a high cost of course and then release Invention for use on T2 BPO's making the next generation of equipment that would rival or surpass the best Officer loot.
Eldon Rosen	Posted - 2007.09.20 11:57:00 - [33] In an ideal world the t2 bpos in game would be converted to long run bpc's and the t2 lottery would start up again dishing out a controlled number of t2 bpcs, however I doubt this could ever be done, I don't own any t2 bpos but if I did and I payed a lot for it I'd be mighty ****ed at losing the bpo...
Bongolus Gallente Black Sheep Enterprises Spear 0f Destiny	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:10:00 - [34] Originally by: Brisi Edited by: Brisi on 20/09/2007 10:12:07 Originally by: Laboratus T2 BPOs provide a low production cost base supply for T2 items. Those in combination with the higher production cost invention items provide you with the low cost T2 market of the day... Take away the base supply, and the prices will skyrocket like never before... Quoted for emphasis. Please read this carefully. And btw, I did research myself and never got a BPO either. The lottery was a joke and invention was the way to fix it, and fixed it has been. So you want the BPO's to disappear out of pure envy? Oh buhu, grow up please. People worked their asses off to buy those bpo's, and now they've paid billions for them, should they just let them go because you're ****y about not getting one? If you think that the people with the BPO's now are the people who won them in the lottery, you're mistaken. Some people might have kept theirs, but the vast majority of tech II bpo's have switched hands at least once. I've never won the 55 million dollar jackpot in real life either, but I am really envious of the people who have, so lets remove their prices to make me feel better? According to that logic, prices must have went up when inventions came into the game... To tell you the primary rule of market economy. If there's more demand than supply prices will go up and vice versa. Quiet simple, isn't it? Lets look what this will mean for the t2 market. If there is more demand than supply, prices will go up. With high prices more player will invent, 'cause envy and jealous as they are, they want their share of the cake. More inventions will raise the supply and this will lower the price. -------------------------------------------------- Rule the hell or serve in heaven!
Gaia Thorn Mentally Unstable Enterprises	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:29:00 - [35] Well doing a similar comparisson is if the t2 bpo owners start whingeing about invention should be nerf since it's killing there sales. You guys are flooding the market with inferior bpc's at almost no cost which drives down our prices. So im gonna start a new thread for nerfing Invention cause everyone can do it and it destroys the t2 market.
EliteSlave Minmatar Tau Ceti Global Production Angels Of Discord	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:32:00 - [36] Oh how i love my Deimos, Ishtar, and Ogre II bpo's.... i print roughly 3.5b a week.. ;)
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:42:00 - [37] Originally by: Gaia Thorn Well doing a similar comparisson... Not similar at all.
Veng3ance New Dawn Rising The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:46:00 - [38] So your saying all those people who bought T2 BPO's with hard earned money should just have their ISK taken away from them? You do realize most BPO holders did not win them in the lottery, but bought them. I personally have almost enough ISK to be in those BPO bid wars. And I never earned a damn cent of it through other BPO's, trading, ratting, plexes, etc etc. Are you saying if I bought one of these BPO's I should just lose all my isk after CCP nerfs BPO;s like you request? Yeah ok.
Rashmika Clavain Gallente Revelation Space	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:54:00 - [39] Like i said, it's a **** sandwich and somebody somewhere is going to end up eating it
Wizzkidy Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2007.09.20 13:54:00 - [40] Originally by: Veng3ance So your saying all those people who bought T2 BPO's with hard earned money should just have their ISK taken away from them? You do realize most BPO holders did not win them in the lottery, but bought them. I personally have almost enough ISK to be in those BPO bid wars. And I never earned a damn cent of it through other BPO's, trading, ratting, plexes, etc etc. Are you saying if I bought one of these BPO's I should just lose all my isk after CCP nerfs BPO;s like you request? Yeah ok. So what? You spent billions on BPO's your own fault - if they change it too bad, things change in this game all the time - u cannot use "i spent xxx on these so they shouldnt change it" Thats stupid and thats your own fault. change them to BPC's is needs to be done
Gaia Thorn Mentally Unstable Enterprises	Posted - 2007.09.20 14:08:00 - [41] Originally by: Wizzkidy Originally by: Veng3ance So your saying all those people who bought T2 BPO's with hard earned money should just have their ISK taken away from them? You do realize most BPO holders did not win them in the lottery, but bought them. I personally have almost enough ISK to be in those BPO bid wars. And I never earned a damn cent of it through other BPO's, trading, ratting, plexes, etc etc. Are you saying if I bought one of these BPO's I should just lose all my isk after CCP nerfs BPO;s like you request? Yeah ok. So what? You spent billions on BPO's your own fault - if they change it too bad, things change in this game all the time - u cannot use "i spent xxx on these so they shouldnt change it" Thats stupid and thats your own fault. change them to BPC's is needs to be done Why does it need to be done ? THe t2 prices have gone down the drain since invention which was it's meaning ! You are just to lazy to work for something you want.
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:26:00 - [42] Originally by: Wizzkidy Originally by: Veng3ance So your saying all those people who bought T2 BPO's with hard earned money should just have their ISK taken away from them? You do realize most BPO holders did not win them in the lottery, but bought them. I personally have almost enough ISK to be in those BPO bid wars. And I never earned a damn cent of it through other BPO's, trading, ratting, plexes, etc etc. Are you saying if I bought one of these BPO's I should just lose all my isk after CCP nerfs BPO;s like you request? Yeah ok. So what? You spent billions on BPO's your own fault - if they change it too bad, things change in this game all the time - u cannot use "i spent xxx on these so they shouldnt change it" Thats stupid and thats your own fault. change them to BPC's is needs to be done So you would be ok, if they changed your wallet to -20Bil isk? You'd be just like, "too bad"? ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.09.20 17:53:00 - [43] To the ISK Protectorate agents: They nerfed Titans. Should Titan pilots, therefore, be refunded x billion ISK? No? In that case, what's wrong with altering T2 BPOs? This game constantly changes. Adapt or die.
Jimi Tetro	Posted - 2007.09.20 18:00:00 - [44] The only way ccp could remove the t2 bpo's would be to turn them into stupidly high run BPC's i.e 5 to 10 years of constant runs. Some people have payed 50-100bil for their bpo's - It is simply unjust to take that away. I dont see the reason for the stupid t2 bpo whining that has re-appeared lately, the t2 bpo's have a finite build capability, means the profits are limited. i.e a HAC bpo might be capabable of building 20 HAC's a month, while an inventor will be able to easily build 20 HAC's in a week and make significantly more isk than the bpo owner due to volume. t2 bpo's were nerfed with invention, i see no real reason to remove them.
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.09.20 18:03:00 - [45] My question is, Since for example passive tanking drakes were nerfed for being too effective, should anyone who has gotten this unintended advantage from this, should that isk, loyalty points and what ever was bought with it be removed? ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Shar'Tuk TheHated	Posted - 2007.09.20 18:06:00 - [46] Why not? DRINK RUM It fights scurvy & boosts morale! THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES!
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.09.20 18:06:00 - [47] Originally by: Laboratus My question is, Since for example passive tanking drakes were nerfed for being too effective, should anyone who has gotten this unintended advantage from this, should that isk, loyalty points and what ever was bought with it be removed? No, but should their Drake be grandfathered in to a permanent state of HAXX? If not, why should T2 BPO holders have a permanent supply of profit sans risk?
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.09.20 18:21:00 - [48] Employees of CCP own some of them. ----------- Support fixing the EVE UI Drones should not aggro anything missiles or turrets do not.
Gaia Thorn Mentally Unstable Enterprises	Posted - 2007.09.20 18:58:00 - [49] Originally by: Amarria Black To the ISK Protectorate agents: They nerfed Titans. Should Titan pilots, therefore, be refunded x billion ISK? No? In that case, what's wrong with altering T2 BPOs? This game constantly changes. Adapt or die. Are you for real ? Are you comparing shooting a DDD device from a different system nerf to making bpo's a limited run ? A more correct comparison would be that the titan only has 5 shoots then it becomes unable to fire forever.
Jimi Tetro	Posted - 2007.09.20 19:03:00 - [50] Originally by: Gaia Thorn Are you for real ? Are you comparing shooting a DDD device from a different system nerf to making bpo's a limited run ? AFAIK Titans have never been able to fire a DDD from a different system.
Irob Urore Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.09.20 19:07:00 - [51] bring back the lottery and f&@&!@ invention off, problem solved. When the new tech level is going to be introduced make that invention only.
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.09.20 19:19:00 - [52] Originally by: Amarria Black If not, why should T2 BPO holders have a permanent supply of profit sans risk? Without risk? And the people who got it through that method are most likely no longer the owners of the BPOS... Have you heard about the concept of cost of capital? Quite a few BPOs have changed hands, and are an asset worth billions. Those same assets in T1 market, could accumulate comperable amounts of isk. Or, say in trading, or for example moon mining, or reactions, or perhaps T2 component production. Or even invention. For example ship bpos of popular ships were sold in the region of 25-75B (ishtar and cerbie for what I found on forum auctions). You can run a production operation through invention with as many ships produced in any given time with a significantly smaller starting capital. For example, a well designed reaction operation has about 4b starting capital (providing good moons) and can produce about 40% profit per month. If you run, say 20 of these operations with the price of one T2 BPO, you are gonna get a lot more return for your investment than with the production of T2 BPO parts. 0.0 trading I did usually had a 30% markup, and the general sell time for equipment was about 10 days, so you do the math on annual profit on that one... It is certainly not without risk, and not the best way of investing your isk. It has low risks, but also does not have the same returns as the more riskier endavours... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Gort Storm Guard Elite	Posted - 2007.09.20 19:22:00 - [53] Originally by: Wendat Huron Leave the T2 BPOs as they are, soon enough there will be T3 for you to whine about. This man speaks wisely about the future. Soon, T2 will fade into a relatively quiet senescence, and people can then neurose about who's ox is gored with T3 print distributionan. Still, the best example of how not to do it is the T1 major ship market. Now, that's broken. G -- When in doubt, empty the magazine.
Leora Nomen	Posted - 2007.09.20 19:59:00 - [54] Originally by: Bongolus i just found this threat: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=594761 1.) Occator BPO ME10 PE5 current bid 15 b 2.) Magnetic Field Stabilizer 2 BPO ME1 PE7 current bid 17 b How can one make so many money that he can spend 15 or 17 billion for a single bpo, without owning at least one t2 bpo himself? you do know that you can make 10+ billion in this game per month playing alone and not doing anything against the EULA or selling GTCs or owning any T2 BPOs? making you be able to afford a T2 BPO in just 2 months of playing should you need one? some people are resourceful enough and have enough time to devote to playing EVE that they can make large sums of ISK without ever getting involved with any T2 production or being vet members in some old established corp - so stop blaming all the riches on T2 BPO owners as if there is nothing else to do in the game to afford to pay 17 b guide to game time codes
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.20 20:39:00 - [55] Originally by: Jimi Tetro The only way ccp could remove the t2 bpo's would be to turn them into stupidly high run BPC's i.e 5 to 10 years of constant runs. Some people have payed 50-100bil for their bpo's - It is simply unjust to take that away. I dont see the reason for the stupid t2 bpo whining that has re-appeared lately, the t2 bpo's have a finite build capability, means the profits are limited. i.e a HAC bpo might be capabable of building 20 HAC's a month, while an inventor will be able to easily build 20 HAC's in a week and make significantly more isk than the bpo owner due to volume. t2 bpo's were nerfed with invention, i see no real reason to remove them. It is very simple: a lot of inventor have discovered that they aren't printing isk and so as it is not their fault (for being late in invention, picking the wrong item, having too high aspectations and so on) the culprit should be the bad T2 BPO holders. It seem most of them were aspecting the same return that the hulk gave for all the invented T2, so, as we aren't getting that kind of return, someone is siphoning them off, and that someone must be a T2 BPO holder.
Evenfall Phoenix The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.09.20 20:41:00 - [56] Originally by: Eldon Rosen In an ideal world the t2 bpos in game would be converted to long run bpc's and the t2 lottery would start up again dishing out a controlled number of t2 bpcs, however I doubt this could ever be done, I don't own any t2 bpos but if I did and I payed a lot for it I'd be mighty ****ed at losing the bpo... I very much like the idea of there being a BPC T2 lottery. That might help balance things a little bit. Yet at the same time invention is still struggling. A better idea would be making invention actually be successful as well as giving inventors the actual percentage chance of an invention attempt working. I do agree that T2 BPOs need to be converted to high run BPCs. Yeah people are going to moan about it, but how is that any different than what CCP is doing to mineral compression, many of the same alliances that hold T2 BPOs put alot of investment into compressing minerals, and CCP is doing away with that.
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.09.21 05:53:00 - [57] Originally by: El'Niaga Depends, some things are just not viable to invent because the t2 bpo holders have just lowered their prices on some items to the point there is no way to recover your loss. Tell me. . . if a module has such a low markup over base materials that the cost of 0.8 datacores per run (assuming 50% success, max run T1 BPC and enough runs that streaks average out) and a 50% increase in material cost per run makes inventing it a losing proposition, what level of profit are you making with a BPO of this that only makes 20 a day? Not markup, profit. 16 Datacores (4 attempts, enough for those 20 runs, again assume max Run T1 BPCs and success averaged over time) plus half the material costs won't add up to much. . . You'd get more money running L4s in a Raven. I am dead serious, I make a better markup on some T1 BPOs than some T2 BPOs would get. Nerf T1 BPOs. -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.21 09:11:00 - [58] Originally by: Irob Urore bring back the lottery and f&@&!@ invention off, problem solved. When the new tech level is going to be introduced make that invention only. But I LIKE having affordable tech2 items. When we had BPOs, Cap Charger IIs were 12M. Now they're 2M. 110M hulks are good too. I realise that a few BPO owners having their huge ISK fountains reduced to mere ISK taps is the worst and most unjust tragedy in history, but on the other side of the equation, the other 99% of players have benefited hugely. I don't make stuff: I buy it and get it blown up. From my point of view, Invention has been a huge success because now T2 stuff is cheaper and more widely available. Any proposal to restore the old T2 lottery has to contain something to counteract the probability that I'll be paying 5x as much for stuff in order to persaude me. A T2 BPO lottery with no competition from invention is real nice for that one guy who gets it. What's in it for me? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.21 09:53:00 - [59] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Irob Urore bring back the lottery and f&@&!@ invention off, problem solved. When the new tech level is going to be introduced make that invention only. But I LIKE having affordable tech2 items. When we had BPOs, Cap Charger IIs were 12M. Now they're 2M. 110M hulks are good too. I realise that a few BPO owners having their huge ISK fountains reduced to mere ISK taps is the worst and most unjust tragedy in history, but on the other side of the equation, the other 99% of players have benefited hugely. I don't make stuff: I buy it and get it blown up. From my point of view, Invention has been a huge success because now T2 stuff is cheaper and more widely available. Any proposal to restore the old T2 lottery has to contain something to counteract the probability that I'll be paying 5x as much for stuff in order to persaude me. A T2 BPO lottery with no competition from invention is real nice for that one guy who gets it. What's in it for me? Most of the people in this and the similar thread want the disapparence of all the T2 BPO, possibly immediatlely and without compensation. The most kind think that turniing them in BPC with a high number of runs could be acceptable. What they will not accept is that a similar move, while it will have little or no effect on the price of the items currently woth inventing, will have a heavy negative effect on the prices of the items that currently have a low price and it is not worth inventing, those item where the BPO production is higher than the demand and where a BPO owner has problem selling his wares if the price is not kept low. Removing those BPO will increase the production cost by x3-5 (probably even more for some item) and as almost no one will buy at those prices, a good range of items will become extremly rare. Some good example can be all the small and medium guns, light missile launchers, rocket launchers and assault missile launchers.
Lady Beauvoir Slutty Witches	Posted - 2007.09.21 10:36:00 - [60] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Irob Urore bring back the lottery and f&@&!@ invention off, problem solved. When the new tech level is going to be introduced make that invention only. But I LIKE having affordable tech2 items. When we had BPOs, Cap Charger IIs were 12M. Now they're 2M. 110M hulks are good too. I realise that a few BPO owners having their huge ISK fountains reduced to mere ISK taps is the worst and most unjust tragedy in history, but on the other side of the equation, the other 99% of players have benefited hugely. I don't make stuff: I buy it and get it blown up. From my point of view, Invention has been a huge success because now T2 stuff is cheaper and more widely available. Any proposal to restore the old T2 lottery has to contain something to counteract the probability that I'll be paying 5x as much for stuff in order to persaude me. A T2 BPO lottery with no competition from invention is real nice for that one guy who gets it. What's in it for me? Most of the people in this and the similar thread want the disapparence of all the T2 BPO, possibly immediatlely and without compensation. The most kind think that turniing them in BPC with a high number of runs could be acceptable. What they will not accept is that a similar move, while it will have little or no effect on the price of the items currently woth inventing, will have a heavy negative effect on the prices of the items that currently have a low price and it is not worth inventing, those item where the BPO production is higher than the demand and where a BPO owner has problem selling his wares if the price is not kept low. Removing those BPO will increase the production cost by x3-5 (probably even more for some item) and as almost no one will buy at those prices, a good range of items will become extremly rare. Some good example can be all the small and medium guns, light missile launchers, rocket launchers and assault missile launchers. This. Would you invent the T2 light drones I'm building currently, with 20k ISK profit per unit when built with a BPO? Or perhaps my T2 150mm light autocannons, with about 30k profit per unit when built from a BPO (now that I've driven the prices down in Jita)? If you would, why won't you invent these now? There's heaps of ISK just waiting, come and invent! You wouldn't, it's not profitable. Period. The reason these items exists at relatively low prices is the existence of T2 BPOs. If you would like to pay at least double the price on most T2 items, feel free. "Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connaet point." -Blaise Pascal, PensTes, 4, 277
Venec Rave Technologies Inc. Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.09.21 10:45:00 - [61] To the bitter people: get out. Seriously. I want my T2 cheap.
Bongolus Gallente Black Sheep Enterprises Spear 0f Destiny	Posted - 2007.09.21 15:12:00 - [62] Originally by: Lady Beauvoir This. Would you invent the T2 light drones I'm building currently, with 20k ISK profit per unit when built with a BPO? Or perhaps my T2 150mm light autocannons, with about 30k profit per unit when built from a BPO (now that I've driven the prices down in Jita)? If you would, why won't you invent these now? There's heaps of ISK just waiting, come and invent! You wouldn't, it's not profitable. Period. The reason these items exists at relatively low prices is the existence of T2 BPOs. If you would like to pay at least double the price on most T2 items, feel free. 30k profit per Item isn't that bad. Let's start calculating ... we say you sell 100 Items a day ... makes 3 millions per day ... 21 millions per Week ... 84 millions per Month. Let's double the price ... makes 190k profit per item ... 19 millions profit per day ... 115 millions profit per Week ... 460 millions profit per Month Now to invention, according to you it costs around 130k to build an Item from a bpo, since you can't say it exactly i'll say it costs around 20% more to invent and build (wich is realy high) ... 156 per Item. If i also want to have 30k profit per Item (21 millions per Week isn't that bad at all) the price will rise up to 186k, or in percent: 16 Now to the point, if i invent, build and sell t2 150mm autocannons, i'll make 7k per Item at a price where you'll make 30k. Just because i haven't had the luck to win the bpo, or because i wasn't silly enough to pay 20b for a bpo. Even with the price before invention (5x more means 685k profit per Unit) i have to sell 30k Items before i'll start making real profit, or to say it in other words, i have to work one year before i'll start making profit. The worst thing is to assume that t2 bpos holding the prices down, invention drop the price and without the bpos the price will just raise to the cost of invention. But it will be never double itself. -------------------------------------------------- Rule the hell or serve in heaven!
La5eR	Posted - 2007.09.21 15:50:00 - [63] Instead of removing them or making them high-run, why not just remove the possibility of a BPO drop from all sources. Overtime as ppl cancel their acct(s) itll iron itself out.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.21 16:10:00 - [64] Originally by: Bongolus Originally by: Lady Beauvoir This. Would you invent the T2 light drones I'm building currently, with 20k ISK profit per unit when built with a BPO? Or perhaps my T2 150mm light autocannons, with about 30k profit per unit when built from a BPO (now that I've driven the prices down in Jita)? If you would, why won't you invent these now? There's heaps of ISK just waiting, come and invent! You wouldn't, it's not profitable. Period. The reason these items exists at relatively low prices is the existence of T2 BPOs. If you would like to pay at least double the price on most T2 items, feel free. 30k profit per Item isn't that bad. Let's start calculating ... we say you sell 100 Items a day ... makes 3 millions per day ... 21 millions per Week ... 84 millions per Month. Let's double the price ... makes 190k profit per item ... 19 millions profit per day ... 115 millions profit per Week ... 460 millions profit per Month Now to invention, according to you it costs around 130k to build an Item from a bpo, since you can't say it exactly i'll say it costs around 20% more to invent and build (wich is realy high) ... 156 per Item. If i also want to have 30k profit per Item (21 millions per Week isn't that bad at all) the price will rise up to 186k, or in percent: 16 Now to the point, if i invent, build and sell t2 150mm autocannons, i'll make 7k per Item at a price where you'll make 30k. Just because i haven't had the luck to win the bpo, or because i wasn't silly enough to pay 20b for a bpo. Even with the price before invention (5x more means 685k profit per Unit) i have to sell 30k Items before i'll start making real profit, or to say it in other words, i have to work one year before i'll start making profit. The worst thing is to assume that t2 bpos holding the prices down, invention drop the price and without the bpos the price will just raise to the cost of invention. But it will be never double itself. Congratulations, you have just dimonstated that you haven't any idea about the cost of invention and that you really need to read the other posts about it. In your calculations you have totally forgotten the cost of datacores. The price Lady Beauvior was citing is the price producing from a BPO, the price producing from a invented BPC, included the invention process and the failure rate, is at least 230K of an acolyte II (and that is considering a very generous success rate of 75%); an acolyte II that sell at 60K. There the price is dictated only by by the BPO supply. On an average module with around 50% success rate and 1 ME datacore + 1 or another kind of datacore the cost of the invention process is around 3 millions for every 10 run BPC. So as I pointed more than once, if you move all T2 item production to invention the price of most modules will rise and the inventor will not get more isk, as the isk will be used for the invention material. To be a successfull inventer you need to invent what has demand high enough that the price is dictated by invention and not BPO builders. On the "great isk" you feel Lady Beauvoir is making, it is the equivalent of 1 level 3 mission, or 3 BS rats in 0.0. Probably killing 3 BS rats in 0.0 is 3 or 4 time faster than building and selling the drones. (and for the autocannon is the same)
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.09.21 16:28:00 - [65] Edited by: Shadowsword on 21/09/2007 16:28:32 Do you fancy paying 300 millions for a field command ship? Without T2 bpos, that's what you'll have to pay. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Riddick Valer	Posted - 2007.09.21 16:45:00 - [66] Invention should have a small % change of creating a BPO. CCP could monitor/adjust this % to keep a stable ammount of BPOs for the population.
Lord Dynastron Mystical Knights Legionnaire Services Ltd.	Posted - 2007.09.21 17:00:00 - [67] From what I recall, invention was a tool to... Keep T2 prices in check Once prices are in check, a way to build YOURSELF cheaper ships. What I do not ever recall it being intended for was as a way to make money for the inventor. It was a way to SAVE money as an inventor. Every corp/alliance would have an inventor on staff.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.21 17:00:00 - [68] Originally by: Rid*** Valer* Invention should have a small % change of creating a BPO. CCP could monitor/adjust this % to keep a stable ammount of BPOs for the population. slim percentage chance of inventing T2 BPO look this trhead. I am contrary to any % chance on normal invention attempt (it would have all the problems of the old lottery), but would like a focused attempt to create a T2 BPO stating from a T1 BPO.
Bongolus Gallente Black Sheep Enterprises Spear 0f Destiny	Posted - 2007.09.21 17:25:00 - [69] Edited by: Bongolus on 21/09/2007 17:28:04 Originally by: Venkul Mul Congratulations, you have just dimonstated that you haven't any idea about the cost of invention and that you really need to read the other posts about it. In your calculations you have totally forgotten the cost of datacores. The price Lady Beauvior was citing is the price producing from a BPO, the price producing from a invented BPC, included the invention process and the failure rate, is at least 230K of an acolyte II (and that is considering a very generous success rate of 75%); an acolyte II that sell at 60K. There the price is dictated only by by the BPO supply. On an average module with around 50% success rate and 1 ME datacore + 1 or another kind of datacore the cost of the invention process is around 3 millions for every 10 run BPC. So as I pointed more than once, if you move all T2 item production to invention the price of most modules will rise and the inventor will not get more isk, as the isk will be used for the invention material. To be a successfull inventer you need to invent what has demand high enough that the price is dictated by invention and not BPO builders. On the "great isk" you feel Lady Beauvoir is making, it is the equivalent of 1 level 3 mission, or 3 BS rats in 0.0. Probably killing 3 BS rats in 0.0 is 3 or 4 time faster than building and selling the drones. (and for the autocannon is the same) Price of datacores wasn't forgotten as you said, they simply just cost nothing (Well you can be that stupid and buy them, but it's not necessary). 21 Million with 1 lvl 3 Mission ... sure. In which game? -.- In 0.0 you can make more than 21 Million with killing just one rat (called officer). I live here since 1.5 years and killed one ... If you are high skilled you can make up to 50 millions per hour with ratting, which is less because you always have the risk of loosing your ship and you have to be aktive all the time. 21 million for just sitting in save space, hitting some buttons and writing bull**** in the Forum is quiet a good benefit... There are exactly three factors that makes invention cost more than bpo production, the rent for the lab- and invention slots, the terrible me level from the copy you'll get and the cost of the additional items. You have a chance of 80% when inventing. This i have calculated. Invention howto -------------------------------------------------- Rule the hell or serve in heaven!
DOC PIC	Posted - 2007.09.21 17:30:00 - [70] Please CCP we need to nerf outposts, titans, dreads..no one I repeat no one should have that much isk ..lol REALLY FOLKS THESE POSTS ARE GETTING REAL OLD T2 BPOS ARE NOT GOING ANYWHERE SOON SO GET OVER YOURSELVES. MANY MANY CURRENT OWNERS BOUGHT THEIRS CAUSE BUYERS WERE PAYING STUUPID ISK FOR THE GOOD ONES. SO THE LUCKY ONES HAVE ISK TO PLAY FOR QUITE A WHILE!! OOOOOOOOOOH LETS NERF THOSE THAT WON T2 BPOS AND SOLD THEM TOO.. The lottery is gone I have made billions on invention after investing billions made from T1 production. If you want isk go figure a way to make it instead of whining about t2 bpos that yes they still make isk but not quite as much.. Some of us have been here for years 4+ infact and are able to adapt when isk making is nerfed like trading etc. OOOOOOOH NOES I NEED TO BE NERFED , BEEN HERE 4+ YEARS AND HAVE MADE BILLIONS!! OK OFF MY SOAPBOX I GO!
Ruffio Sepico Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2007.09.21 17:32:00 - [71] Originally by: Bongolus Originally by: Lady Beauvoir This. Would you invent the T2 light drones I'm building currently, with 20k ISK profit per unit when built with a BPO? Or perhaps my T2 150mm light autocannons, with about 30k profit per unit when built from a BPO (now that I've driven the prices down in Jita)? If you would, why won't you invent these now? There's heaps of ISK just waiting, come and invent! You wouldn't, it's not profitable. Period. The reason these items exists at relatively low prices is the existence of T2 BPOs. If you would like to pay at least double the price on most T2 items, feel free. 30k profit per Item isn't that bad. Let's start calculating ... we say you sell 100 Items a day ... makes 3 millions per day ... 21 millions per Week ... 84 millions per Month. Let's double the price ... makes 190k profit per item ... 19 millions profit per day ... 115 millions profit per Week ... 460 millions profit per Month Consider he is limited to build 36 of those auto cannons a day (unless built at a POS), that is a good magic trick you got there by sell 100 a day. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.21 18:00:00 - [72] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 21/09/2007 18:02:00 Originally by: Bongolus Edited by: Bongolus on 21/09/2007 17:28:04 Originally by: Venkul Mul Congratulations, you have just dimonstated that you haven't any idea about the cost of invention and that you really need to read the other posts about it. In your calculations you have totally forgotten the cost of datacores. The price Lady Beauvior was citing is the price producing from a BPO, the price producing from a invented BPC, included the invention process and the failure rate, is at least 230K of an acolyte II (and that is considering a very generous success rate of 75%); an acolyte II that sell at 60K. There the price is dictated only by by the BPO supply. On an average module with around 50% success rate and 1 ME datacore + 1 or another kind of datacore the cost of the invention process is around 3 millions for every 10 run BPC. So as I pointed more than once, if you move all T2 item production to invention the price of most modules will rise and the inventor will not get more isk, as the isk will be used for the invention material. To be a successfull inventer you need to invent what has demand high enough that the price is dictated by invention and not BPO builders. On the "great isk" you feel Lady Beauvoir is making, it is the equivalent of 1 level 3 mission, or 3 BS rats in 0.0. Probably killing 3 BS rats in 0.0 is 3 or 4 time faster than building and selling the drones. (and for the autocannon is the same) Price of datacores wasn't forgotten as you said, they simply just cost nothing (Well you can be that stupid and buy them, but it's not necessary). 21 Million with 1 lvl 3 Mission ... sure. In which game? -.- In 0.0 you can make more than 21 Million with killing just one rat (called officer). I live here since 1.5 years and killed one ... If you are high skilled you can make up to 50 millions per hour with ratting, which is less because you always have the risk of loosing your ship and you have to be aktive all the time. 21 million for just sitting in save space, hitting some buttons and writing bull** in the Forum is quiet a good benefit... There are exactly three factors that makes invention cost more than bpo production, the rent for the lab- and invention slots, the terrible me level from the copy you'll get and the cost of the additional items. You have a chance of 80% when inventing. This i have calculated. Invention howto You are: a) very funny b) really ingenue c) a troll Originally by:** Bongolus we say you sell 100 Items a day ... makes 3 millions per day ... 3 millions a day = 1 level 3 mission = 3 BS, datacores free = you can sell them, so they cost exactly what you dont get from selling, learn some economy. If you use 2 datacores you can sell for 1,5 millions you are using 1,5 millions of resourece. If your invention don't give back those 1,5 millions, you are losing isk, not gaining. You are one of those persons that think that the minerals yourself are free?
DOC DOCCCC	Posted - 2007.09.21 18:14:00 - [73] OMG I JUST MADE 700 MILL LAST MONTH SPAMMING lvl3 MISIIONS CCP NERF ME!!!!!!!!
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.09.21 19:19:00 - [74] Originally by: Bongolus Price of datacores wasn't forgotten as you said, they simply just cost nothing (Well you can be that stupid and buy them, but it's not necessary). Congratulations. you just failed Economics 101. -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth
pandymen Caldari Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2007.09.21 20:36:00 - [75] Edited by: pandymen on 21/09/2007 20:39:43 I don't own any t2 bpos currently, and I want them to remain in existence. Not a single person in this thread has given one good reason for why they should be removed. The best reason anyone ever said is that it is unfair to everyone else, no risk, only profit...blah blah blah. Unfortunately, they neglect to mention that there is quite a bit of risk involved, because when you buy a T2 bpo for several bil, you kinda take the risk that profit margins on the item will remain stable for a long period of time so that you can recover costs. I can't believe you see no risk in spending 20 bil on a t2 bpo that may or may not be affected by future changes in game mechanics and invention. Besides, everyone is ignoring that "t3" is coming out relatively soon. Once that happens, t2 will most likely not be in as much demand, as they are no longer the best ships. TBH, those against the bpos are simply jealous that some people have t2 bpos that they don't have and weren't around to get in the first place..much like me. This is the same kind of whine people made when heat came out and they didn't want to have to train a rank 3 skill to lvl 5 and it was unfair that older players could use heat and they couldn't You just want an easy way to print money, as you view t2 bpos to be (altho you apparently have no idea how they or invention work). Honestly t2 bpos are not out of your reach. Think of ways to make money other than t2 bpos...get that money, and buy one. It's quite simple, and can be done with only 1 bil or so isk. And honestly, if there was some mechanic that made it much easier to get a bil isk than it is already, inflation would take hold, and everything would cost more simply because ppl have tons and tons of isk to throw around and they wont bother producing t1 stuff as much. That said, look at invention. If you pick the right items, you can make iskloads, it just takes capital to start...much like a t2 bpo would.
Bongolus Gallente Black Sheep Enterprises Spear 0f Destiny	Posted - 2007.09.21 21:23:00 - [76] Originally by: Venkul Mul You are: a) very funny b) really ingenue c) a troll Originally by: Bongolus we say you sell 100 Items a day ... makes 3 millions per day ... 3 millions a day = 1 level 3 mission = 3 BS, datacores free = you can sell them, so they cost exactly what you dont get from selling, learn some economy. If you use 2 datacores you can sell for 1,5 millions you are using 1,5 millions of resourece. If your invention don't give back those 1,5 millions, you are losing isk, not gaining. You are one of those persons that think that the minerals that you mine are free? Quote: You have a chance of 80% when inventing. This i have calculated. Care to give your oh so careful calculation? My experimentations with different combinations and run of more than 100 attempts for every combinations give a success rate way lower and not constant between the different modules. Unless in your 80% figure you are always using best chance decryptors. You told me to read the forum postings and that's what i did, look at the link. The minerals i mine just cost me time, i don't pay something to finish the cycle. The datacores don't cost me time at all. My best Agent give me 2.5 per day for nothing. All i need is the time to fly to him and gather 'em. If i'm going after ridiculous market values and are of that kind most people here accuse me to be, I would have whined a lot in this forum after the Zydrine nerf, 'cause I've lost over 2b on that. I did a calculation, even if it's ingenue as you said, it's comprehensible. You just throwing in numbers without any evidence. And still the point is that this is a game not RL, except for DOC DOCCCC (you realy should get yourself one), and in my opinion it should be fair. But to satisfy all those price whiners i'll change my demand: Take t2 bpos out of the game and change invention in a way that the prices won't go up. And at least: Originally by: DOC PIC OOOOOOOH NOES I NEED TO BE NERFED , BEEN HERE 4+ YEARS AND HAVE MADE BILLIONS!! Originally by: prathe in fact people who can afford tech 2 ships should also be nerfed because it unfair so all tech 2 items should be nerfed to t-1 items and while were at it just because somebody has more sp than me shouldn't mean they can fly better ships then me i want to be able to fly all ships in eve including titan so all ships should be 1 isk and have no skill reqs Stop this kind of postings, that's so stupid. I'm in eve for over 2.5 years, i've made my billions too, i have my carrier and so on, without owning a t2 bpo myself. Everyone who starts playing eve has equal chances. They can skill in that way or another. They can running missions, mine, trade or doing whatever to make their money, which is all fair. Except for the t2 bpos, where some players getting better chances just because of luck. That's the point i wanted to mention, not more not less. I don't mind anyones money if he get it in a fair way, 'cause i had the chance to do it that way too. -------------------------------------------------- Rule the hell or serve in heaven!
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.21 22:25:00 - [77] Originally by: Shadowsword Edited by: Shadowsword on 21/09/2007 16:28:32 Do you fancy paying 300 millions for a field command ship? Without T2 bpos, that's what you'll have to pay. That's odd, because that's what we were paying with the BPOs. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Ravenal The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.21 23:57:00 - [78] Originally by: Hllaxiu The OP is deluding himself if he thinks that all 0.0 alliances do their t2 business using characters that are in their alliance. they suffer from altsyndrome. .
Benvie	Posted - 2007.09.22 04:20:00 - [79] You really need to learn the concept of opportunity cost. What you're saying is the equivalent of: - I get 3 datacores per day. - Those datacores sell for 5 million on the market. - Instead of selling those datacores I throw them in the garbage and **** on them. - Even though they could have been sold for 5 million, I am somehow not losing money by throwing them away. You're an idiot.
Bongolus Gallente Black Sheep Enterprises Spear 0f Destiny	Posted - 2007.09.22 09:47:00 - [80] Originally by: Benvie You really need to learn the concept of opportunity cost. What you're saying is the equivalent of: - I get 3 datacores per day. - Those datacores sell for 5 million on the market. - Instead of selling those datacores I throw them in the garbage and **** on them. - Even though they could have been sold for 5 million, I am somehow not losing money by throwing them away. You're an idiot. You still didn't get the point, did you? At least, i don't lose money when counting datacores as free. Losing money means i have less money on my wallet than before. Just because these datacores are in the market for 10M or 100M or 1B dosen't mean that they are sold for that price, or are sold in such a number to make more money than using them into invention. It's just a theoretical value, and a ridiculous value too. You can't put it into calculation. They still are free to get. If all people who do invention now start to sell their datacores on the market instead of using them in their own inventions, their price will drop rapidley. I also can start to sell my Zydrine for 4k which theoretical means i'm rich, but it dosen't change something on my wallet, except the loss for the market costs. And in the end it dosen't change something on the point that it is still unfair when u try to build a t2 item using invention compared to building an item with a bpo. -------------------------------------------------- Rule the hell or serve in heaven!
Dread Phantom Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.09.22 10:03:00 - [81] Originally by: Bongolus Originally by: Benvie You really need to learn the concept of opportunity cost. What you're saying is the equivalent of: - I get 3 datacores per day. - Those datacores sell for 5 million on the market. - Instead of selling those datacores I throw them in the garbage and **** on them. - Even though they could have been sold for 5 million, I am somehow not losing money by throwing them away. You're an idiot. You still didn't get the point, did you? At least, i don't lose money when counting datacores as free. Losing money means i have less money on my wallet than before. Just because these datacores are in the market for 10M or 100M or 1B dosen't mean that they are sold for that price, or are sold in such a number to make more money than using them into invention. It's just a theoretical value, and a ridiculous value too. You can't put it into calculation. They still are free to get. If all people who do invention now start to sell their datacores on the market instead of using them in their own inventions, their price will drop rapidley. I also can start to sell my Zydrine for 4k which theoretical means i'm rich, but it dosen't change something on my wallet, except the loss for the market costs. And in the end it dosen't change something on the point that it is still unfair when u try to build a t2 item using invention compared to building an item with a bpo. I love it, you put so much effort into your trolling, its a thing of beauty
Bongolus Gallente Black Sheep Enterprises Spear 0f Destiny	Posted - 2007.09.22 11:10:00 - [82] Originally by: Dread Phantom I love it, you put so much effort into your trolling, its a thing of beauty How about puting something wise into the discussion instead of just blaming me for no reason? -------------------------------------------------- Rule the hell or serve in heaven!
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.09.22 11:24:00 - [83] Edited by: Shadowsword on 22/09/2007 11:24:33 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Shadowsword Edited by: Shadowsword on 21/09/2007 16:28:32 Do you fancy paying 300 millions for a field command ship? Without T2 bpos, that's what you'll have to pay. That's odd, because that's what we were paying with the BPOs. The only command ship that ever went above 200M was the nighthawk. If you want a proof, here's a quick calculation: datacores cost: 25 millions decryptor: 30 millions T1 ship: 25 millions max-run BC BPC: let's say 10 millions. average run obtained per invention job: around 1.4 cost of invention for a command ship: 61 millions. cost of production with a ME -7 print: somewhere around 100 millions. Add to that the fact that 50% of the obtained runs will be fleet command ships, worth on average 90-100 millions. and it's just not profitable to invent them. That means that they're not invented. So, invention has no influence on the current field command ships market value. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
pirategirl85	Posted - 2007.09.22 11:28:00 - [84] Originally by: Jamie 315 Originally by: Bongolus Originally by: Celeste Coeval why are you allowed to post on the forums? Who allowed you to make silly postings? At least i've explained my question, your post is just crap ... Funny thing is your the one that is posting crap. The people with the bpos won them in a lottery that was closed so everyone could get a fair chance (btw your from 05, which means you have had a while to try and win the lottery, did you even try?). If you release t2 bpos on the market it will destroy invention (oops cause and effect). Which will hurt so many people that your small mind can not even begin to understand. T2 bpos used to equal lots and lots of isky in production (3b to 4b a week with a hulk bpo profit). Now they still make some nice profits but nothing compared to what they used to make. Those BPOs are only worth isk to 0.0 alliances (like the ones bidding on it). They don't want to flip the bill for invention and have it possibly fail. They want to be able to click build on any BPO and have it be done asap. Thats why the bpo of a t2 item is worth allot. Now if you look at the profit margin of the bpo you will see yes its a nice profit, but not end of the world. Life ain't fair so why should eve be fair? Should every alliance hold equal space and lose equal amounts of isk in fights and have equal memebers with equal numbers with equal skills with equal standings to caldari state? NO. If you can not figure out how to make isk well tough luck, don't try and get someone to tell you how to. You failed at invention and you want to take it out on the bpo holders? Bitterness I geuss. What did you try to invent anyway? This guy needs his forum account removing with posts like that.

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